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YOUR BALANCE
The “Slippery Slope” FALLACY
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The “Slippery Slope” FALLACY


Jun 9, 2020, 12:04 PM

First, to address a few of the comments on my earlier posts, I very well recognize that removing a name from a building/place/thing requires us to apply a value judgment.

I hold a Master of Arts degree in history and a Master of Historic Preservation. I get it, I really do.

Second, it is perfectly acceptable to apply a value judgment on people from the past (especially those we chose to honor).

Throughout human history value judgments have been made on the actions of those who came before us.

Third, each person that we chose to honor needs to be looked at in totality. It is not as simple as this “person did X and thus should or should not be honored.”

I’m placing a value judgment on John C. Calhoun and Benjamin Tillman. IN TOTALITY, neither were good men or even decent men. They were openly racist and advocated for white supremacy. They looked out for their own interest and the interest of those that looked like them and practiced their same religion. In short, they sure as hell knew better and still chose ignorance and hate.

You are #### right that I’m passing judgment on them. They should not be honored by Clemson University. Clemson was founded in 1889, over two decades after the Civil War. It was built on lands that once belonged to John C. Calhoun and lands that belonged to Native Americans before him. John C. Calhoun had as much to do with the university as the Native Americans who owned the land before him.

George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, insert other historical figure here, were slave owners. They had significant character flaws. They also helped lead the Continental Army during The Revolution and laid the framework for the Bill of Rights, the Constitution, and the UNITED STATES as we know it.

So, yes, in totality, we should recognize their positive contributions to America, democracy, and the world. They deserve to be honored and recognized. Because of their ideas, we are having these conversations today and are working towards equality and equity In ways thought impossible in 1776. But we still have a loooooooonnnnnnggggg way to go.

Calhoun and Tillman spread vitriol and hate, their ideas would have left us divided and without hope.

Stop with this “it’s a slippery slope” nonsense.

GO TIGERS!
MB

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"A life is not important except in the impact it has on other lives." - Jackie Robinson


I absolutely love slippery phallaces


Jun 9, 2020, 12:05 PM

sigend, Francis Marion®

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Why do dogs always race to the door when the doorbell rings? It's almost never for them.


Agree....


Jun 9, 2020, 12:16 PM

the interesting thing is to look at these folks through a modern lens. If you cannot defend their behavior then should they really be glorified by the University? Like it or not, this is the lens that the younger generation uses to validate who they support. Had Calhoun never owned slaves (human beings!!) then we would not even be talking about this. We would be discussing that he was a 2-time Vice President or something else. The fact is he owned other human beings and cannot ever separate his history from that. Should we rename the honors college? Not for me to decide. BUT, we need to be understanding when others say this is why they don't advertise their university. If it represents oppression to them then we need to acknowledge and be open to their perspective (Nuk/Deshaun). Otherwise we have no respect for them or their opinions. Just my $0.02.

Go Tigers!!

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Re: Agree....


Jun 9, 2020, 12:28 PM

You going to rename Washington D.C. and remove all monuments to our first President?

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Already addressed this on different post. Thanks.***


Jun 9, 2020, 12:38 PM



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How do you keep Gamecocks out of your yard?
• Put up goal posts
What does a Gamecock grad call a Clemson Tiger grad in 2 years?
• Boss


Re: Already addressed this on different post. Thanks.***


Jun 9, 2020, 1:02 PM

Then you need to reread your own post.

“The fact is he owned other human beings and cannot ever separate his history from that. “

So according to your statement anyone who owned slaves is fair game, including Washington, regardless of any positives they contributed.

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Re: Already addressed this on different post. Thanks.***


Jun 9, 2020, 1:11 PM [ in reply to Already addressed this on different post. Thanks.*** ]

You did not address it. Washington owned other humans. Jefferson owned other humans. Take down all memorials to them?

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Not my call. Simple as that. Owned other humans......***


Jun 9, 2020, 1:24 PM



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How do you keep Gamecocks out of your yard?
• Put up goal posts
What does a Gamecock grad call a Clemson Tiger grad in 2 years?
• Boss


Re: Already addressed this on different post. Thanks.***


Jun 9, 2020, 1:31 PM [ in reply to Already addressed this on different post. Thanks.*** ]

If you look at Washington's history and how he acquired slaves and how he treated them and provided for their LEGAL emanciparion on his death, I think the case can be made he should be treated differently. A case can also be made for how RE Lee acted in freeing his slaves the day after the Emancipation Proclamation was issued and after the war was over when he supported a black former slave receiving communion at his church.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/what-john-kelly-got-right-about-robert-e-lee-1509745645

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Re: The “Slippery Slope” FALLACY


Jun 9, 2020, 12:27 PM

You judge historical figures from the moral lens of their era, not ours.
By your standards, the vast majority of the founders were bad men. Slavery was world wide. It was not a unique evil of South Carolina.

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I appreciate your point, but you’re missing one important thing.

1

Jun 9, 2020, 12:29 PM

The “slippery slope” will happen. If we change the names on a couple of things, the people complaining will move on to the next thing to complain about. And there is no end.

Most of the people complaining do not have as many leather bound books and certificates on the wall as you do, and are not using the same reasoning as you did in your post.

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Re: I appreciate your point, but you’re missing one important thing.


Jun 9, 2020, 12:49 PM

“The slipper slope will happen” = fearmongering/exaggeration/manipulation

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Re: The “Slippery Slope” FALLACY


Jun 9, 2020, 12:34 PM

I have a historic preservation degree as well. Assuming you might have received those degrees from Mary Washington since you’re in NOVA? They will probably be changing the name of UMW soon, Washington and Lee as well.

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Re: The “Slippery Slope” FALLACY


Jun 9, 2020, 1:02 PM

With every success the goal posts will be moved.

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Re: The “Slippery Slope” FALLACY


Jun 9, 2020, 1:16 PM

Well reasoned post and I agree. Many are afraid that once ground is given, that all will be lost. IMO you have to address what is right before you first and worry about the rest later. Tillman and Calhoun were despicable human beings even by the standards of their time and don’t deserve to be honored in any public way today. Are there people/groups with agendas involved...sure...but that shouldn’t keep Clemson from doing the right thing. If we are who we claim to be then removing Calhoun/Tillman is a no brainer.

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Re: The “Slippery Slope” FALLACY


Jun 9, 2020, 1:23 PM

Congratulations Matthetiger@ - you are able to discern and make judgements on historical figures based on some unwritten criteria that you have determined as proper. The problem is that not everyone agrees with your criteria and can very easily argue for and against your judgements. Take the woke mob for example - they do not delineate one slave owner from another - all are equally reprehensible and no amount of honor or praise on a former slaveholder is legitimate. The mob does not care that former slave holders wrote the most important governing document in the history of human civilization - all slave owners are forever reprobates and must be treated accordingly.

So in whose hands do we leave the final judgements and dispensation of historical figures? Yours or the mobs?

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Re: The “Slippery Slope” FALLACY


Jun 9, 2020, 1:36 PM

So...the answer is to do nothing...to not do what is right? I think we are better then that.

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When you have graduates, students, and former student athletes


Jun 9, 2020, 1:42 PM [ in reply to Re: The “Slippery Slope” FALLACY ]

Calling for the names of buildings to be changed, it is time to listen and make changes. These are all people who LOVE this university. As Dabo said these are historical times, we (as a university) must do what is right.

I expect Clemson to be A LEADER, to address it head on/quickly, and to do what is right. We are a major, international university.

The time is now.

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Re: The “Slippery Slope” FALLACY


Jun 9, 2020, 1:29 PM

Okay. I can understand your logic...and I will sort of acquiesce to it. I'm just supremely leery of whipping out the eraser and taking it retroactively to important historical figures because by modern norms they don't pass muster.

I'll give you Calhoun. Beyond the land once being his, he made no direct contribution to Clemson...okay. Conceded. But Ben Tillman's case is a little more nuanced, IMHO. His politics were abhorrent, without question, but he was also an incredible innovator when it came to crop rotation and diversification...which is a huge part of what Clemson was founded upon. (The irony is that his love of "diversity" stopped at agriculture.)

It's hard to find anything to like about Tillman's politics. You read over his list of causes and legislature and it's like: whoa. Not good, there, Benny. And if that was all he did, sure, wipe him off the rolls. But the problem is, Tillman's other contributions were, IMHO, integral to what Clemson was all about.

If we're going to forgive Washington and Jefferson, why not also Tillman? He was a guy with a tribal mindset from a tribal era, but he did make legitimate contributions that advanced civilization. We don't have to pretend he was perfect...but we collectively came from complete savagery, and we as a species have eked our way upwards one painful step forward at a time...often while simultaneously taking a step back. Tillman kind of exemplifies this.

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Re: The “Slippery Slope” FALLACY


Jun 9, 2020, 1:39 PM

So how do you recognize him without also honoring him? I don’t think you can, so move his name out of the limelight and into history where it belongs.

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