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Topic: The Kelly Bryant discussion
Replies: 43   Last Post: Apr 10, 2018 9:00 AM by: twentytwofifteen
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The Kelly Bryant discussion

[4]
Posted: Apr 8, 2018 9:40 AM
 

Is an interesting one and a discussion I prefer not to enter at this time BUT, remember this...... KB had one very big luxury missing from his arsenal last season. Namely Williams Scott Leggett.

Take those receptions away from Watson’s numbers in the championship year and see what you have.

Dabo will do the right thing


Re: The Kelly Bryant discussion

[3]
Posted: Apr 8, 2018 10:08 AM
 

I agree with most of what you’re saying but we designed an offense to take advantage of Kb’s running skills and not the offense DW4 ran.

True Kb didn’t have the arsenal DW4 had but several things hurt kb, his decision making was off and didn’t throw when it was open.

His perimeter passes were often way too high. He made some good throws but not consistently. Kb’s release to the perimeter is a bout a second too slow for defenses like ours and bama. That’s really what separates DW4 and TL apart from the others... they’re like Brady and can get the ball out quickly.

Bama had and has the same problem. Kb and Hurts are about the same. Hurts a little more consistent and better at reading defenses than kb, but mostly the same.

I was reading the bama site and they’ve had the identical threads as we have. What to do with hurts if tua plays as expected. Talking of hurts moving position etc but there’s rumbling that Saban is going to a two qb system this year.

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Re: The Kelly Bryant discussion

[5]
Posted: Apr 8, 2018 10:14 AM
 

While I may take some flak for saying it, Deshaun would have never been Deshaun without Gallman. He could flat out block. Many people don’t give him any credit. I never saw him miss a block. He was also a great power runner.

Coaches last year we’re playing roulette within Etn whiffing on assignments, feaster missing block 50% of the time, choice and Fuller were decent runners but good blockers. The defense knew what was coming by which back was in.

You put deshauns offense around KB and we would of had a very different playoff


Re: The Kelly Bryant discussion

[1]
Posted: Apr 8, 2018 11:06 AM
 

While I fully support KB. We probably would not have made it to the playoffs in 2016 if he was the qb.

Offense won a lot of games in 2016. That team could almost score at will against any opponent. It was lead by a QB that could hit the deep ball 75% of the time.

Even when KB had time to throw he couldn't hit the deep ball consistently. That was this teams downfall. KB could have had Jesus Christ blocking for him and still not be a threat to hit hit the deep ball.

Maybe it changes this year but you can't teach touch.


Re: The Kelly Bryant discussion


Posted: Apr 8, 2018 11:18 AM
 


While I fully support KB. We probably would not have made it to the playoffs in 2016 if he was the qb.

Offense won a lot of games in 2016. That team could almost score at will against any opponent. It was lead by a QB that could hit the deep ball 75% of the time.

Even when KB had time to throw he couldn't hit the deep ball consistently. That was this teams downfall. KB could have had Jesus Christ blocking for him and still not be a threat to hit hit the deep ball.

Maybe it changes this year but you can't teach touch.



And if KB2 had Gallman, Williams and Leggett we would have beaten Bama last year


Re: The Kelly Bryant discussion


Posted: Apr 9, 2018 2:02 PM
 

Especially Leggett. That’s the one position that hurt us big time. Without a true pass catching threat at TE, Bama was able to put 7 in the box to stop the run and pressure the QB.


Re: The Kelly Bryant discussion

[2]
Posted: Apr 8, 2018 11:30 AM
 

Hard to throw a deep ball when you’re about to get tackled because your running back and tight end can’t block.

Deep ball takes an extra couple seconds to develop, running back assignment and often te assignment slipped through immediately last year.

Not comparing KBs arm to Deshauns, but without time Tom Brady isn’t throwing an accurate deep ball.
Also Williams/legget had better vision than last years crew. You could drop the ball anywhere around them and they would go get it. Deon you could hit in the hands sometimes and he dropped it let alone adjusting to an over/under thrown ball.


Re: The Kelly Bryant discussion

[1]
Posted: Apr 8, 2018 1:54 PM
 

Alabama stacked the box and constantly pressured oline. When you have 7 guys in the box constantly blitzing the oline is gonna have a tough time protecting the qb.

But that doesn't explain the other 13 games where he couldn't complete a pass in the 3rd level on at least a somewhat consistent basis.


Re: The Kelly Bryant discussion


Posted: Apr 9, 2018 1:13 PM
 

I know a lot of the time the WR had to stop and wait on the ball but you do know that KB is the leader in the ACC on completion % when discounting dropped or tipped balls. There is a stat for that and Clemson Sports Network posted it on Instagram like 3 times a few months back.


Re: The Kelly Bryant discussion


Posted: Apr 9, 2018 1:14 PM
 

On passes over 20 yards. So I am not just talking about short passes


Re: The Kelly Bryant discussion

[1]
Posted: Apr 8, 2018 11:12 AM
 

Very good points. However, DW4 salvaged a lot too and he also knew where to put Gallman and he could make the throws. I would have to argue that DW4 didn’t have as good of an oline except his last year and he sure didn’t have a d like kb did. Give kb our 2016 d and the outcome probably lot different. Good debatable points either way.

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Re: The Kelly Bryant discussion

[2]
Posted: Apr 8, 2018 1:31 PM
 

I hear what you are saying but DW didn’t have Wayne last year and had a pretty good year in the NFL. I would say maybe Kelly didn’t trust the WRs as much as DW did. DW thought/knew he could make any throw. I hope the QB who can make any and every throw asked to starts. I don’t care who it is as long as they have the skills to help guide this team back to the National Championship and win it.

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Re: The Kelly Bryant discussion


Posted: Apr 9, 2018 5:00 PM
 

Do what? NFL and college can in no way be compared to each other. Deshaun was surrounded by the elite of all football players last year at Houston. What does that have to do with playing with Gallman?

No one is questioning Deshauns passing ability, but rather people are questioning Kelly’s. And I’m saying with more time after snap, that Deshaun had much thanks the Gallman(and others, Kelly could have an extra second or two before he threw deep passes allowing for better accuracy and attempts past 20yards.


Re: The Kelly Bryant discussion

[2]
Posted: Apr 8, 2018 12:49 PM
 

those three were great but someone has to put the ball where it could be caught. it takes a team to win and that was a complete team.

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Re: The Kelly Bryant discussion

[1]
Posted: Apr 8, 2018 1:08 PM
 

And still we needed no miracle wins to go 12-2. KB completed his first 20 passes in the ACCCG. He ran rather than forcing passes resulting in fewer turnovers. Way more easy wins last year than in ‘16.


Re: The Kelly Bryant discussion


Posted: Apr 9, 2018 12:55 PM
 

??? What?? Needed no miracle wins? Oh, so what was a 2-6 FSU then? Is that a normal year for them, or did Kelly get a miracle by Francois being injured and the team giving up on Fisher? No miracle wins..lmao.


Re: The Kelly Bryant discussion


Posted: Apr 9, 2018 5:39 PM
 

That's because we had a top 5 defense and can overpower teams in the run game. Deshaun starting on the 2017 Tigers would have meant 14-0 with a beatdown of Bama in the Sugar Bowl. Face it, we played with a big RB/TE at QB and squandered our receiving talent last year.


Williams was and is the real deal ...

[2]
Posted: Apr 8, 2018 1:23 PM
 

Hope Mike bounces back big and builds a rapport in LA this year with Philip Rivers.

Scott and Leggett were very strong college players. That said, I look for Deon Cain to be drafted much higher than Leggett and have a better pro career than both Leggett & Scott. My take, different from yours, is that Deshaun had the poise and accuracy to consistently put the ball right on the money where all those receivers could best receive it. Looking at constant variables between 2016 and 2017, take a look at Hunter Renfrow's performance in big games. A quality receiver is only as good as the routes he can run and the QB's accuracy. As for Leggett and the TE position, the Offense gave Milan Richards hardly any routes or balls in 2017. Take the great Brady and his poise and pinpoint accuracy away from the Pats and see what the impact is to Amendola, Hogan, Edelman and even Gronk. An even better example, take Deshaun away from Texans and look at what what happened to the Houston passing game. Same Nuk, same receivers were there but much different results without Deshaun. Look at Nuk in 2016 before Deshaun's arrival - a top 20 receiver. With DW, a top 3 receiver. It all starts with the QB putting the ball on the money.


Message was edited by: SocMan2®


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Re: The Kelly Bryant discussion

[2]
Posted: Apr 8, 2018 1:29 PM
 

We had wide open WRs on about every play last season.
Except for the Cain drops , the WRs did their job last season.
If KB could roll out like DW and hit them the talent out there was just as good.
Maybe not the experience but we had talent out there .


Re: The Kelly Bryant discussion


Posted: Apr 9, 2018 5:02 PM
 

Can’t roll out when TE and RB assignments are free to run right through.


At this point


Posted: Apr 8, 2018 1:43 PM
 

KB is a known quantity. HJ and TL are wishful thinking based on high school performances.

They're certainly talents to bet on.....but KB is already established.

If any of the other QB's take the starting spot, it won't be until October.

IMHO


Sounds about right Felix

[1]
Posted: Apr 8, 2018 2:00 PM
 

Unlike last year, I would like to see us build some depth at QB position so Tigers don't have to play a completely immobile QB as we did at Syracuse in 2017. Depth and next-man-up matters. Saban and Smart had Tua and Fromm prepared to contribute. Clemson coaches showed extreme conservatism (or fear) in severely limiting some regular season and Bama natl championship game plans. Tony Elliott stated during spring practice interview that Bama game plan was on him. OK. So lets not make the same mistake in 2018. This 2018 team is loaded - I hope they have a chance to live up to their talent level. Clemson coaches are smart and will no doubt adjust.

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We know we can win the ACC and make playoffs with KB.


Posted: Apr 9, 2018 12:39 PM
 

As you said, we don't know what we can win with Lawrence, Johnson, or Brice. Many people here get way too excited about the potential of those unproven players, and assume that they are already way beyond KB in terms of skills and abilities.

While I expect to see Lawrence or Johnson pass Bryant on the depth chart this season, I do not think it will happen until we can see all of them in live action against a real opponent. It would be silly for Dabo to demote a returning senior QB who led us to a #1 ranking in the CFP and an ACC championship, and did not lose a game he finished until the Alabama game in the CFP - and to demote him in favor of a highly touted but unproven QB like Lawrence or Johnson.

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Re: The Kelly Bryant discussion

[3]
Posted: Apr 8, 2018 1:53 PM
 

Ok take KB 3 leading receivers away and recompare... Watson put up 400 yards against Bama without Williams or Cain and a 70% gallman in 2015 who was rotating in and out and did it with ease the comparison is not even close.


Re: The Kelly Bryant discussion


Posted: Apr 9, 2018 11:09 AM
 

That was not the championship year!

As I recall, we lost that game


DW can't play defense and special teams, too.


Posted: Apr 10, 2018 8:25 AM
 

What a ridiculous dismissal of his argument.

We know what the ceiling is with KB. Hopefully one of the other QBs is ready.

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Sorry, but the "KB didn't have the weapons" argument

[2]
Posted: Apr 9, 2018 11:30 AM
 

is INSANE.

DW4 was a 1st round NFL talent.

KB will not play in the NFL at the QB position.

Talent discrepancy is off the charts.

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Re: Sorry, but the "KB didn't have the weapons" argument

[1]
Posted: Apr 9, 2018 11:55 AM
 

Seems like we are all comparing a first year starter against a third year starter and saying he is not as good...
There is a reason that KB did not start head of DW....
One similarity is in each ‘s first champ game they lost to....bama.
I think comparing weapons is a legit exercise...Cain could be great or he could be jelly hands but no comparison to mike Williams.


Re: Sorry, but the "KB didn't have the weapons" argument


Posted: Apr 9, 2018 12:09 PM
 

KB didn't play in a champ game, so maybe you meant similarity in playing Bama the first time? That also wouldn't be correct though because in two games against Bama DW4 led an offense that put up over 1,000 yards in those two games along with 75 points. While a KB led offense didn't reach 200 yards and scored 6.

Again, Williams didn't play in the first game against Bama, nor did Cain, and we still put up 550 total yards (450 passing).

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Re: Sorry, but the "KB didn't have the weapons" argument


Posted: Apr 9, 2018 12:23 PM
 

If you are saying DW4 was a better QB...I agree.
But would you not also agree comparing 1st year starter to 3rd or even 2nd year starter not a fair comparison?


Re: Sorry, but the "KB didn't have the weapons" argument

[1]
Posted: Apr 9, 2018 1:31 PM
 

Compare DW4's first year then and it's still not really a good comparison for KB.

Look at Tajh's first year starting, again, not a good comparison for KB.

There is a reason that for the first time in 7 years we changed our offense up to not pass it as much, the 3 years with Tajh and the 2 full seasons with DW4 were all 413 passing attempts or more, KB had 398.

Do I think we can win it all with KB? Certainly, we have the defense to do so, however, I think our chances are increased when you insert a QB with more arm talent into what our offense should be.

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Very well stated ...


Posted: Apr 9, 2018 11:10 PM
 

Clemson coaches severely dumbed down Offense in 2017 to facilitate KB's skill sets and pre-disposition to run over throw. This was by design - Dabo and TE encouraged KB to pull it down and not make mistakes. Then KB got hurt and the Offense got real predictable. A good but limited QB became one of the weakest links on an outstanding team. KB could not run, and it didn't matter. The team was good enough to keep winning except in emotional burnout at Syracuse.

Then came Bama. A team very used to playing equally talented personnel with limited QB talent. They play them every year - the LSU Tigers. And Bama held L. Fornette to about 2.2 yards over his LSU career. They completely shut LSU down because they were a one-trick pony just like Clemson in playoff game. And Clemson coaches could not or did not respond. Not until UGA and true freshman Jake Fromm brought it with their vertical passing did the Bama Defense look mortal. Now it's a new year. Let's build some QB depth and employ that depth when needed. Go Tigers!

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Re: Sorry, but the "KB didn't have the weapons" argument

[1]
Posted: Apr 9, 2018 5:12 PM
 

It’s not just a weapons argument, it’s the whole line.

Throwing takes time, longer passes take more time.

Deshaun had Gallman and Leggett two of the best blocking RB and TE combos we’ve had. This resulted in plenty of time to throw, or at least an open side to roll out and wait for routes to develop.

Kelly had RBs that could not block that could run, so when they were in defense knew a run was coming. Or when coaches got desperate put in ETN on a pass and Kelly gets creamed.

Kelly also had other RBs that could block but not run as a threat so the defense knew a pass was coming then and load the box even more.(Bama and Syracuse). Without time to throw or a side to scramble to free of a untouched defender, Kelly couldn’t wait for long routes to develop and usually resulted to running.

Therefore to compare Kelly and DW4 is not fair to Kelly. He is capable of better passing with the right protection, prime example ACCCG


Re: Sorry, but the "KB didn't have the weapons" argument


Posted: Apr 10, 2018 9:00 AM
 

This times 100! Some of the blame for the Bama game falls on Elliott and Scott. They had a VERY vanilla offensive game plan all season for Kelly. They never progressively pushed the envelope as the season went on. They did just enough to win, and kept it very simple. “Just enough to win” offenses don’t beat teams like Alabama. Nothing changed from game one to game 14. No increase in tempo, formations or variety.


Re: The Kelly Bryant discussion

[1]
Posted: Apr 9, 2018 12:05 PM
 

What about 2015 when DW4 didn't have Williams and our offense was actually better than in 2016 statistically?

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Re: The Kelly Bryant discussion


Posted: Apr 9, 2018 12:32 PM
 

DW4 had a much better ability to read the defense on each play. He frequently went to his 3rd or 4th option because he knew that was the best choice based on the defense. I'm not sold that KB has that ability. From what we are hearing, TL does.


Re: The Kelly Bryant discussion


Posted: Apr 9, 2018 1:45 PM
 

My mistake for posting this. I foolishly thought that KB would have had more success in the passing game with Scott Williams and Leggett on the field. Neither Cain nor McCloud were able to replace the loss of the trio I mentioned. Thankfully we have Mr Renfro. If our receivers don't improve from last years performance it will certainly take a super QB to improve our passing game. These are my opinions and you have yours. Go Tigers
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Maybe Cain and Ray Ray were hamstrung by a mediocre QB.***


Posted: Apr 10, 2018 8:27 AM
 



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I think KB will be just fine...


Posted: Apr 9, 2018 1:48 PM
 

even against Bama. With fewer dropped passed and better pass protection, I think KB hits some of those throws and the team at least hangs with them. If the team plays Bama again, they better just know they best be physical up front and get ready to use Feaster and Choice to pound the rock. I firmly believe this team, with KB as the starting QB, could beat Bama.

I also think we will see more backups play this year. I think if the game is in hand at any point, then the others will get the rounds, especially vs. Furman, GA Southern, Duke, and S. Carolina. Maybe Wake / Cuse / BC too. That there is potentially 7 games the backup(s) could get significant / majority PT.

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Re: I think KB will be just fine...


Posted: Apr 9, 2018 2:33 PM
 

If not for the great defense, the Sigar Bowl would have a laugher !

You do realize that we scored ZERO touchdowns in that game. Didn't really come close to scoring for the entire game.
We have a ways to go to beat Bama. The talent is there. I can see our
Running game being a lot better and our passing game very average ..... Unless some receivers step up big time


Let me explain. Bama will beat the crap out of Tiger O-line


Posted: Apr 9, 2018 11:17 PM
 

again in 2018/19 bowl came if we meet again. They did in 2017 bowl and Deshaun overcame it. They did last year, and KB has no chance to overcome it. KB may have been 5th or 6th best ACC QB in 2017. A QB opposing Bama will have to make split second reads and put the ball right on the money before the receiver makes his break. That was not KB in 2017/18 season. Agree with you that Clemson backup QBs should get some reps this year.

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Re: The Kelly Bryant discussion

[1]
Posted: Apr 9, 2018 2:48 PM
 

DW4 nearly took them down with a beaten up Scott, no Mike Williams, no Deon Cain, and a hurt Gallman still putting up 400+ yards himself in 2015 which included the defense being extremely wore down and tired with starters missing by that point for Clemson. Take KB's top 3 weapons away and look at his numbers, the argument isn't realistic even when you think about taking away his top 3 targets which would be an absurd comparison anyways. KB didn't put up the numbers Watson had in the championship games against bama in a single regular season game all year even when we were far superior to them as I honestly believe we had one of the most dangerous receiving cores in all of college football we missed a lot of opportunities and claiming the O-Line blocking wasn't as good would be incorrect as well as the O Line this year graded out as one of the best we've ever had at Clemson. He had a good game at Miami and a talent riddled Clemson team won 12 games last year most of which had to do with everything except for the offensive passing so giving glory to KB solely for winning those games is also as absurd as comparing him to DW4, never the less I believe we will win with any QB and trust Dabo on this decision.


Am I seriously reading this?


Posted: Apr 9, 2018 4:50 PM
 

Yes, Bryant fails in comparison to Watson but who doesn't? You are talking about one of the best college quarterbacks ever. It is like comparing all other NFL quarterbacks to Aaron Rogers and Tom Brady!


It is that Walrus ... and yet our very coaches


Posted: Apr 9, 2018 11:23 PM
 

The great Dabo Swinney as well as Tony Elliott and Jeff Scott are all telling Clemson fans and the world that Trevor Lawrence is far ahead of where Deshaun Watson was as a freshman in terms of physical ability, size and composure. I am listening to these coaches. Are you? And I would take the freshman DW over the senior KB. How about you? We will all have to watch it play out this year.

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