|
Replies: 31
| visibility 511
|
Hall of Famer [21545]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 13907
Joined: 9/7/02
|
Spot on.
Dec 16, 2016, 9:25 AM
|
|
|
|
And here's where we are at.
|
|
|
|
 |
CU Medallion [60205]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 42549
Joined: 11/30/98
|
This has truly been the most entertaining month+ ever
Dec 16, 2016, 9:42 AM
|
|
You guys need to hold back some of this tin foil panic until he at least gets sworn in office.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [79388]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 63255
Joined: 10/30/05
|
My favorite has been the Bernie crowd being concerned about
Dec 16, 2016, 9:51 AM
|
|
government overreach and oppression. Almost enough to make ones head assplode.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [42000]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 38145
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Both the extreme left and right want government overreach...
Dec 16, 2016, 10:34 AM
|
|
And oppression. They'll pretend they don't want that (or maybe even don't realize they want it), but extremism on either side generally wants to oppress and subjugate the populous so they can keep their views. That's the only way extremism can survive.
For the left, it devolves into socialism and communism (in the most extreme). For the right, fascism (no, folks, there is nothing leftist about fascism).
Many of the Trump crowd embrace the concept of fascism even though they may not know it. Fervent nationalism, oppression of speech, isolationism, xenophobia, and the labeling of minority groups as enemies is a hallmark of the fascist playbook.
This is the first time in my life in America (not on this board, but in actual face-to-face conversations) where I've heard people say that maybe fascism and a strong, authoritarian leader might be good for America. And they were dead serious.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80954]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56044
Joined: 9/13/04
|
"Many of the Trump crowd..."
Dec 16, 2016, 10:40 AM
|
|
I'd like to see a breakdown, if there is one, of Trump voters who really actually want Nazi Germany reincarnated in America as you and may liberals purport, vs those who just decided that 8 years of what we had was enough, and that a change, ANY change, was worth trying.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [42000]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 38145
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Of course they're not going to say...
Dec 16, 2016, 10:46 AM
|
|
"I want Nazi Germany reborn". Well, except for the handful of white nationalists who support him.
Remember, fascism doesn't have to necessarily = Nazi Germany reborn. Fascist concepts can be embraced without going to that extreme.
But let's look at what many of his supporters advocate, and what he himself pushed:
-Restrictions on the First Amendment
-Xenophobia towards hispanic immigrants and Muslims. One of the key elements of fascist rise is labeling certain groups as enemies and rallying the people to your cause against them.
-Isolationism and protectionism in trade. I don't think I have to explain Trump's views on this with our trade and economy.
-Hyper nationalism. Would you disagree that he and his supporters have pushed this?
-Militarism. He wants to "rebuild" our military, although it's already very strong.
-National rebirth or return to some kind of golden age. "Make America Great Again".
There are many other traits if you want them.
To be fair, I would argue Bernie supporters also headed down the dangerous paths of extreme socialism that would also lead to oppression.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80954]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56044
Joined: 9/13/04
|
You speak of nationalism like its a bad thing.
Dec 16, 2016, 10:55 AM
|
|
Why?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [42000]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 38145
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Pride in your country (nationalism) isn't a bad thing.
Dec 16, 2016, 11:05 AM
|
|
I'm speaking of the hyper-nationalism:
-The view that we are a vastly superior people compared to anyone outside our nation.
-The push to force symbols and flags on others and viewing people who don't do these things suspiciously.
-Calling for severe punishments or even criminal prosecution for people who choose not to stand for an anthem or pledge, or people who burn symbols in protest.
-Wanting to force people to stand at attention for those anthems or pledges.
-Forcing people to wear national symbols (remember how people were verbally attacked for not wearing American flag pins after 9/11?)
-Somehow attaching a religious or racial stigma to nationalist pride, and thus ostracizing or attacking others who do not fit this narrative. This is the most extreme example, but it exists in hyper nationalism.
Just some examples. There's nothing wrong with loving your country. It's when you take that love and try to force it upon others that it becomes a problem.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80954]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56044
Joined: 9/13/04
|
Aside from one thing you mentioned, that I don't necessarily
Dec 16, 2016, 11:28 AM
|
|
have an issue with:
(The view that we are a vastly superior people compared to anyone outside our nation.)
Where have you seen these things happen? As Trump hasn't been sworn in yet, and from what I understand is refusing to give press conferences, where have you heard any of this will be policy?
This all seems very reminiscent of how "That Islamic traitor Obama is going to have secret police and change our nation to Sharia law" was being touted 8 years ago. Remember that?
And the only thing that really happened was pretty much like I thought and said then; He wasn't evil, he just wasn't prepared or capable to do the job--for either term.
All of the "I'm literally scared to go to work today because of the election results" snowflakes that are prophesying the end of the world with Trump in charge are going to be very let down with what doesn't occur. The man has limited power in what he can do. And if we don't like him and he sucks, then vote him out in 4 years. And if he starts doing something illegal, kick him out in less time than that.
Maybe I'm missing it, but I don't see where things politically, economically, or globally have been all that great for anyone, at least to the extent that a leadership style and change wouldn't be something that everyone might consider. Or is it that many just got used to the general malaise, and they don't remember any better?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [42000]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 38145
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Re: Aside from one thing you mentioned, that I don't necessarily
Dec 16, 2016, 2:10 PM
|
|
I never said it would be a part of his policy. It's just been an ideology embraced on the campaign trail by him and his followers. Whether or not he will try to push it once in office is yet to be seen. But it is undeniably what was embraced.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80954]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56044
Joined: 9/13/04
|
So all this is basically conjecture.
Dec 16, 2016, 2:17 PM
|
|
On what "might" or "could" happen.
Got it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [42000]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 38145
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Well, not really...
Dec 16, 2016, 3:00 PM
|
|
Because I haven't made any predictions over what will happen. I was making a commentary earlier about extremism on the left and right, and I pointed out that Trump and many of his supporters embraced fascist ideology on the campaign trail.
I didn't say that would actually come to fruition.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34092]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33592
Joined: 9/13/99
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80954]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56044
Joined: 9/13/04
|
But yet he completely ignores those voters that got
Dec 16, 2016, 11:05 AM
|
|
Trump the win--and ones that I specifically asked about. Those who previously had voted for Obama, but were completely disillusioned with his lack of outcomes.
ironically, its this reason that Hillary lost. These folks have been completely ignored.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [42000]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 38145
Joined: 11/30/98
|
If you go back to my post...
Dec 16, 2016, 11:16 AM
|
|
You'll see that I said "many" Trump supporters. Not most.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [80954]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 56044
Joined: 9/13/04
|
I referenced that.
Dec 16, 2016, 11:53 AM
|
|
But you certainly seem to focus on the less desirable of voters and ignore those that didn't believe that or vote as they did because of that. That's a trend with liberals, both in the media and in person, apparently.
To expand on this, Cata, why do you think Trump won?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [42000]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 38145
Joined: 11/30/98
|
I think I've given that answer in the past.
Dec 16, 2016, 2:13 PM
|
|
He won because:
A. Millions of voters have felt disenfranchised and forgotten by the establishment.
B. Clinton ran an arrogant, poorly planned campaign and failed to realize what her camp had done to the people in A.
C. He pushed rhetoric not heard from other candidates that millions found refreshing.
D. The Dems failed in hitching their wagons to Hillary instead of Sanders.
E. And a few other reasons here and there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [17856]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 8921
Joined: 12/24/96
|
You do realize that not even John Lennon believed
Dec 16, 2016, 11:28 AM
[ in reply to Of course they're not going to say... ] |
|
What he preached in his songs - as is proven by his actions. But, it is nice to "imagine" certain things as long as we don't exclude reality when we get down to making actionable decisions.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [79388]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 63255
Joined: 10/30/05
|
Well, it's a sentiment that unchecked, rampant immigration
Dec 16, 2016, 10:43 AM
[ in reply to Both the extreme left and right want government overreach... ] |
|
breeds. People are naturally territorial, it really shouldn't surprise anyone. We joke about having to press 1 for English and stuff like that, but that really does #### a lot of people off, and why shouldn't it? It will never end well when a government begins valuing the non citizen over the citizen.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [42000]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 38145
Joined: 11/30/98
|
A problem? Absolutely.
Dec 16, 2016, 10:49 AM
|
|
But rallying the populous to label the group as an enemy is dangerous. Especially when we can't simply look at a Hispanic and know if he or she is an illegal or not. Using hate towards them as a campaign tool is frightening.
As for your example about pressing 1 for English, I mean, we don't have an official language, and I would think that's smart capitalism: Make sure your service is available to people of multiple nationalities.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [79388]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 63255
Joined: 10/30/05
|
There are a lot of negatives you can pin on Trump, but this
Dec 16, 2016, 11:01 AM
|
|
"Using hate towards them as a campaign tool" is just utter nonsense. I realize that in today's world simply wanting illegal immigrants gone is considered "hate" by some, but I think we can conclude the majority of people are over that crap. The "OMG xenophobia" rhetoric isn't working on people like it used to, apparently.
As to my example, it doesn't have as much to do with capitalism as it does the changing culture due to illegal immigration. And it makes no sense for the native population to tolerate it, particularly since a lot of their tax dollars already go to those nations where the illegal immigrants originate from.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [42000]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 38145
Joined: 11/30/98
|
There are...
Dec 16, 2016, 11:15 AM
|
|
Over 42 million legal immigrants here. Most are Hispanic. It's smart capitalism.
As for Trump's hate towards them:
"When Mexico sends it people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."
He tells his supporters that most of the people coming from Mexico are criminals. This is an absurd statement and a dangerous one to get his supporters to believe.
"You have people come in and I'm not just saying Mexicans, I'm talking about people that are from all over, that are killers and rapists and they're coming to this country."
Again, same thing. Make people think that most of the people entering this nation are dangerous, thus fomenting xenophobia and hatred towards them.
"The Mexican government is much smarter, much sharper, much more cunning. They send the bad ones over because they don't want to pay for them. They don't want to take care of them."
Once again: If you see a Mexican, you should assume they're bad.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [79388]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 63255
Joined: 10/30/05
|
He's not exactly wrong though
Dec 16, 2016, 11:24 AM
|
|
There are rapists, murderers, drug dealers, and the like illegally flowing across the border. Do you really think doctors and aerospace engineers are the ones paying coyotes to smuggle them across the desert in the middle of the night? And all of the people coming from Mexico illegally are criminals, it's as simple as that. So why should I obey laws when they get to saunter on into the country illegally, be given educational benefits, drivers licenses and the like, all while I help foot the bill with my tax dollars? I'd say that fosters more hate for them than anything Trump has ever said.
If you want people to quit associating Mexicans with criminals and bad people, quit letting them flow over the border illegally. That goes for all nationalities. I'd say the vast majority of people, even Trump supporters, have no problem with immigration, in of itself. It's the illegal immigration they're tired of, and when you call them xenophobic for even having the nerve to voice their concerns, they really get pissed. So they elect a guy who wants to build a wall and deport the illegals, it's not rocket science.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [42000]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 38145
Joined: 11/30/98
|
He said most of those people were that.
Dec 16, 2016, 2:14 PM
|
|
And that's absurd. But it helps to get people hateful, angry, and fired up.
When you call most of them those words, and people get fired up and agree over that, thus wanting to block them all with a wall, yes, that's xenophobia.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [79388]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 63255
Joined: 10/30/05
|
It really doesn't matter if they're the pope if they're
Dec 16, 2016, 2:22 PM
|
|
coming illegally, make it stop. That's what people want. Most reasonable people aren't angry about it because of rhetoric, they're angry about it because it's hitting them in the pocket book. You're telling me I've got to help educate these peoples kids who came here illegally, and then we're going to send their home country financial aid on top of that? No thanks, GTFO. And that's just one of many areas where they impact the actual citizen. The American taxpayer doesn't owe any other countries citizens jack shiat, and in the face of insurmountable debt, it seems as if they're saying enough. And that's not xenophobia, that's self preservation. Same thing is happening in Europe.
Again, what gets people hateful, angry, and fired up is when you start valuing the non citizen over the citizen. Trumps rhetoric had nothing to do with that, our governments actions have.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [56005]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 31617
Joined: 8/27/02
|
What's funny is you could deport every single person who's
Dec 16, 2016, 1:26 PM
[ in reply to Well, it's a sentiment that unchecked, rampant immigration ] |
|
here illegally and you'll still have to press 1 for English because there's a huge, legitimate Spanish-speaking population in the US. And that's what makes those "press 1" people xenophobic and not merely in favor of border security and law enforcement.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [79388]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 63255
Joined: 10/30/05
|
And that's a culture/demographic shift caused by illegal
Dec 16, 2016, 2:07 PM
|
|
immigration, and it doesn't make people xenophobic to be concerned/angered about it and who want it to stop.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [42000]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 38145
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Dude.
Dec 16, 2016, 2:15 PM
|
|
If you are upset about having to press 1 for English, yes, you're xenophobic. This is not something that upsets most people. Like the ones who get mad at Happy Holidays. Move on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [79388]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 63255
Joined: 10/30/05
|
You're missing the entire point***
Dec 16, 2016, 2:16 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Guru [1033]
TigerPulse: 89%
Posts: 1824
Joined: 12/9/98
|
Re: Spot on.
Dec 16, 2016, 10:46 AM
|
|
That is President Elect Trump to you sir
|
|
|
|
|
|
Orange Blooded [3590]
TigerPulse: 89%
Posts: 6987
Joined: 11/30/12
|
LOL... Trump got your hair on fire?***
Dec 16, 2016, 11:46 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [47646]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30344
Joined: 11/15/99
|
I've never in my 56 years seen the left so paranoid and
Dec 16, 2016, 7:46 PM
|
|
trying every little angle to stall DJT.
Suck it you whiners. You lost. Put together a platform that will appeal to voters not on welfare. You lost the WH, the Senate and the House, not to mention many State races.
Elections have consequences, a Statesman once said.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 31
| visibility 511
|
|
|
50
