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Hall of Famer [22168]
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Somebody help a confused old man out.
Oct 12, 2020, 8:39 PM
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I posted this on a Nole board. I would appreciate the perspective from your point of view.
I have tried to figure out why do many "good" teams have "horrible" defenses.
I don't think there is any easy answer. But, I cannot believe that it is simply a matter of offensive coaches are so good they can scheme up offenses that defensive coordinators just throw up their hands and say, "We can't even slow that down, much less stop it."
But, that is what is happening.
I can't believe a bunch of elite programs have hired assistant coaches, and pay them 1M+ a year who are just incompetent. Just looking at yesterday, the defenses of the following teams is just inexcusable and inexplicable: Alabama, Florida, LSU, North Carolina; Oklahoma.
I know some of those teams won. But, considering who they were playing and how many yards and points they gave up to those teams is just beyond my ability to fathom.
I watched a ton of football yesterday. I can't count the number times I heard, "He got to the edge....They didn't set the edge....No one was there to turn him inside....He got outside again....Why was no one on the edge?....etc, etc."
I know football is far more complicated than I can ever dream, but "setting the edge" is like on of the first things you learn in Pop Warner football.
I also know it isn't' just "setting the edge." That is just one aspect. But, when a Bama defense gives up 600 yards to an Ole Miss offense - including 250 on the ground, I am just speechless. And when uf allows aTm to just run up and down the field on them, seemingly at will, I am clueless.
Now, to FSU. I just watched Cory and Ira. I'm right there with them. I want to blame the coaching staff. I want to say, "Fire the coaches and hire somebody good." But, I look around the NCAA. It appears that Brent Venables may be the only coach in the country that understands how to game plan against an offense.
FSU defense stinks. Period. And, I'm not giving the coaches a pass. But, it has to be more than just poor coaching, doesn't it?
Somebody tell my why defenses all over the country stink.
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Legend [19882]
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Re: Somebody help a confused old man out.
Oct 12, 2020, 8:43 PM
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Because Defense is HARD!
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Legend [19882]
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Re: Somebody help a confused old man out.
Oct 12, 2020, 8:47 PM
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mint... HARRRRRRRDDD!!!!!!!
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110%er [7173]
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Some Blame It On Covid 19 Bret, But. . .
Oct 12, 2020, 9:05 PM
[ in reply to Re: Somebody help a confused old man out. ] |
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I have seen some people say it's because defenses were not allowed to tackle as much due to the virus. Seems to me a safety issue if you ask someone to do something they haven't practiced. Especially something like tackling.
So, I don't believe that.
Pass interference favors the offense; which is true! But, that's not it either. Like you said, Bama gave up 250 yards on the ground.
Some have suggested the refs aren't calling things like "Picks" or as you offensive minded people call them "rub routes"! This one is true they don't call it as much as they should. Also heard they aren't calling holding on the offense like they should. Can't say that - I have seen some flag fest so far this season.
Bret - the 7 on 7 work these QB's are putting in and some of the virtual reality systems they have access to is playing a part!
Imagine getting to see the bama d virtually before you have to "feel the bama defense for real"! You get to see some alignments and looks! And have a plan of action before hand.
And with the 7 on 7 work most QB's go through if you have a good OL - it becomes "pitch and catch"!
Defenses are also having to react quickly and do so with offenses with multiple schemes and looks! It takes more energy to play defense because you have to react to what the offense is doing. Then Bret - throw in tempo. You have to stay basic in your alignments or risk touchdowns. So you end up giving up chunk yards!
The RPO offense has changed offensive football forever! And, in the category of things the refs do not call nearly enough, "the ineligible receiver down field" doesn't get called enough. And this, is likely your biggest culprit. Defenses are on their heels because the OL is run blocking and past 5 yards but the QB's around CFB are being allowed to pull it and throw it to a receiver if it's available.
All that said, "there are things you can do"! BV defends the RPO pretty well with his schemes. Kirby and Georgia defend it pretty well.
All that said, I am with you Bret! Why? How? Getting paid the money some of these DC's are paid, no way should it not at least be slowed down some.
And on Tempo offenses - remember that OL rarely gets to sub out. And if they do sub the defense can sub out. So, no excuse. I heard QB's and WR's get 7 on 7 but there is nothing for the defense. Who are they doing 7 on 7 against then? LB and secondary players should have some better idea about defending rub routes(picks). Has football gone soft? Defending the run is just about imposing your will(unless you are 165 lbs going against a 300 pounder. . . . then it just don't matter).
I get why you ask and I agree. But looking at the salaries - one would think you would get a better return on some of these teams/schools investments!
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Legend [19882]
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Good understanding of HARRRRRRRDDD!!!!!***
Oct 12, 2020, 9:14 PM
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CU Guru [1665]
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The biggest reason, I believe, is that they have basically
Oct 12, 2020, 8:56 PM
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legalized holding in college football now.
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CU Medallion [67659]
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Re: The biggest reason, I believe, is that they have basically
Oct 12, 2020, 9:12 PM
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that is for sure. it has gotten ridiculous
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Orange Blooded [2877]
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Re: Somebody help a confused old man out.
Oct 12, 2020, 9:08 PM
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It’s the whole world. There a lot of people in well paid positions that have no business being in those positions. Highly paid does not equate qualified
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All-TigerNet [10824]
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Re: Somebody help a confused old man out.
Oct 12, 2020, 9:09 PM
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The kind of defense that was played years ago nearly doesn't exist for several reasons, IMHO.
1. Offensive players are just as big, even bigger, than the defensive guys now. Olinemen now weigh 300+. Pretty tough to bowl many of these guys over. Receivers are now bigger and faster than dbacks and safeties. Have much better hands for 50/50 balls. Some tight ends now weigh 250-260. This was unthinkable 30 years ago. Many of the running backs now have world class speed. Even the qbs are huge, able to throw bullets for 60 yards and run over backers.
2. The offensive skill players are now protected like never before. Look at all the targeting, roughing the passer and pass interference penalties that are called.
3. Drives now start at the 25, as opposed to the 20 years ago.
4. I think many great young athletes growing up would rather score tds than try to stop them. More payola for them in the NFL.
5. The passing game is now the in thing. Not so several decades ago. Teams move up and down the field in no time. Blink your eye, miss a td.
6. The networks want more offense. More exciting. Most fans would rather see 51-48 than 10-7.
7. The OT rules are just plain stupid, IMHO. A 21-21 regulation tie can now end up 45-42. Dumb.
Just a few reasons.
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110%er [7173]
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Re: Somebody help a confused old man out.
Oct 12, 2020, 9:22 PM
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The kind of defense that was played years ago nearly doesn't exist for several reasons, IMHO.
1. Offensive players are just as big, even bigger, than the defensive guys now. Olinemen now weigh 300+. Pretty tough to bowl many of these guys over. Receivers are now bigger and faster than dbacks and safeties. Have much better hands for 50/50 balls. Some tight ends now weigh 250-260. This was unthinkable 30 years ago. Many of the running backs now have world class speed. Even the qbs are huge, able to throw bullets for 60 yards and run over backers.
2. The offensive skill players are now protected like never before. Look at all the targeting, roughing the passer and pass interference penalties that are called.
3. Drives now start at the 25, as opposed to the 20 years ago.
4. I think many great young athletes growing up would rather score tds than try to stop them. More payola for them in the NFL.
5. The passing game is now the in thing. Not so several decades ago. Teams move up and down the field in no time. Blink your eye, miss a td.
6. The networks want more offense. More exciting. Most fans would rather see 51-48 than 10-7.
7. The OT rules are just plain stupid, IMHO. A 21-21 regulation tie can now end up 45-42. Dumb.
Just a few reasons.
Perfect answer!
#5 is why I think the kids out in Texas don't seem to play tough defense. All the best players focus all their attention on offense. Those small town hero moments always go to the offense not the defense. I think in the South - we still would rather get the occasional punish a "joker" hit on the offense. And we have enough that want to play offense; but enough left over who are good athletes that want to stop offenses and hit people. Just my opinion on the Texas/Oklahoma thing. I got that from an article a few years ago about football out there suggesting something similar. It makes sense to me looking at how H.S. ball is almost like a religion there.
Liked your whole breakdown!
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110%er [7173]
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Re: Somebody help a confused old man out.
Oct 12, 2020, 9:23 PM
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#4. My bad.
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All-TigerNet [10824]
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All-In [46430]
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Re: Somebody help a confused old man out.
Oct 12, 2020, 9:22 PM
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I think it’s got to do with conditioning they usually get in the summer, the defense gets sloppy when their tired.
The defenses will get better over the next 3-4 weeks in my opinion.
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CU Guru [1154]
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Based on what I see every day on a team that
Oct 12, 2020, 9:38 PM
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I help to coach and have coached for years: Young guys want to be on offense, and Coaches put the fastest guys on offense to score more points than the other team. Most HS teams have boys playing only one way so there are more of the fast guys on offense.
If they don’t play D for years, then a lot of instruction and most importantly, aggression, is lost.
Like a poster said, it’s HARRRRD to play D. You have to have a guy with a disregard for pain and self harm. It’s uncomfortable.
I just think the game has changed (and maybe for the betterment of the health of the players). Blame the 7 on 7 tournaments that started in Texas HS. Blame kids wanting to not play both ways. Blame it on spurrier. It’s different. But the teams that are athletic and that can instill aggression and tenacity have a HUGE advantage on D and over the opposing team.
Those Ruggedly aggressive teams are becoming fewer and fewer and are making the ones who have that rough and tough mindset standout.
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All-In [30804]
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It’s all about knowing how to recruit
Oct 12, 2020, 9:41 PM
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Some coaches will just take a 4* at a position they’re loaded in instead of taking a 3* that they desperately need. Clemson has done more with 3* players than FSU is doing with 5*. So, it is about coaching and recruiting.
We can go back to Tommy Bowden’s recruiting of Willy Korn. He promised not to recruit any other QB’s and Korn started only 1 game from what I remember. He also recruited Jamie Harper on a pitch that the very first running play of the season would be given to him. Then he proceeded to fumble that first handoff against Alabama. That was in a season where we had James Davis and CJ Spiller. Dumb coaching.
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110%er [9662]
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I thought this was gonna be a Joe Biden ad.***
1
Oct 12, 2020, 9:53 PM
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All-In [30804]
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Is he still around? Haven't seen him in awhile.***
Oct 12, 2020, 10:00 PM
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All-TigerNet [10480]
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Re: Is he still around? Haven't seen him in awhile.***
Oct 12, 2020, 10:39 PM
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I’ll go with the KISS method.
My observation is, accountability has become rare. I see it everywhere. Schools, utilities, retail, friends, government, manufacturing, restaurants, you name it. Whatever garbage product we slap in front of you, you should be satisfied with it. Good luck finding better, end of story.
I’d be surprised if Coaching is different.
Everyone is being told to be afraid of everything all the time. You should be so afraid, that you say nothing when our incompetence has a major negative impact on you.
Accountability? Who’s got time for that, I’ve got shadows I need to be running from.
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CU Guru [1257]
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Re: Somebody help a confused old man out.
Oct 12, 2020, 10:24 PM
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Today's game has been engineered in favor of the offense. TV and fans are demanding more offense. The offense can now legally hold.
The defense cannot defend the pass...it's interference.
The defense must tackle someone only on a certain part of their body...with only a certain part of THEIR body.
You have a low scoring game and you only hear about how the offense didn't have a good game. You'll never hear that in baseball...That pitcher was dominant.
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110%er [7173]
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Re: Somebody help a confused old man out.
Oct 12, 2020, 10:39 PM
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Today's game has been engineered in favor of the offense. TV and fans are demanding more offense. The offense can now legally hold.
The defense cannot defend the pass...it's interference.
The defense must tackle someone only on a certain part of their body...with only a certain part of THEIR body.
You have a low scoring game and you only hear about how the offense didn't have a good game. You'll never hear that in baseball...That pitcher was dominant.
Good comparison! You are correct! I like baseball; I don't love it. I could watch a game where there are few hits being given up; if it's my team. In football, I can watch a 10-7 game if it's great defense! But, most fans aren't like me or rather like a lot of us!
They want the highlight play on every down from scrimmage! It fits into our microwave world where it's instant gratification.
So, making the rules so that the offense benefits more makes sense to me! It fits how things are. As a purist - "i don't like it"! Safety of the game is something I am all for - no problem with those rules except kicking a player out a half for targeting. Because some targeting is plain bad technique and should be severly punished and some is incidental. They should have a targeting 1 and a targeting 2 and that would work.
Legal holding - bad for the game. Those OL are some strong guys and allowing them to hold changes everything. The other thing you don't like is how it seems to come out and(holding penalties) at the most unfortunate times. Like after a big pass play or big run. When otherwise on some routine plays where there was egregious holding "it wasn't called"! It's makes you start thinking scripted WWE stuff.
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Scout Team [159]
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Re: Somebody help a confused old man out.
Oct 12, 2020, 10:50 PM
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I agree 99%, the one percent is for the WWE is scripted!
Tell me it is not So.
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110%er [6223]
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Re: Somebody help a confused old man out.
Oct 12, 2020, 10:47 PM
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As others have pointed out, there are many reasons.
Could it be as simple as fundamentals. Not always, but as a rule our defensive players have excellent fundamentals. They tackle well in space, they understand their role, they love to hit hard but not at the expense of not making the tackle. Our players play to the whistle better than any other program.
We have all seen the shoe string tackle at the 1 or 2 yard line, followed up by a tremendous goal line stand. You watch other players get beat, and they pull up at the 10 or 15 yard line. Potter didn't give up, he didn't make the play but he hustled.
It is coaching. BV says it all the time, he prefers experience over athletics. If a player is in the right place at the right time, they will make plays. Clemson recruits well, not just the 4 & 5, and develops even better.
Although , as others have pointed out, this wuhan has put the defense behind. Some will catch up.
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Orange Blooded [4086]
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Re: Somebody help a confused old man out.
Oct 13, 2020, 11:08 AM
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When Bowden came in at Clemson, he favored the offense and put all the speed and athletic talent there.
Herring quit/was fired and out the door he was complaining that 8 RBs/QB/athletes would come in and instead of getting his pick for defense he was getting the guys that weren't fast enough or talented enough to play offense. The defense suffered because of it.
Most teams don't have enough talent to have good players at every position and offense sells tickets so coaches prioritize it.
You also have teams that are chasing talent to get what they can and they end up with guys who are undisciplined or have low football IQ so they could make the play but they are in the wrong spot.
If you've ever coached, you know that all the training and practice in the world doesn't matter if the players won't do what they are told. And if you don't have the talent and will to sit someone who isn't disciplined then they have no incentive to play within the system.
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