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All-TigerNet [12942]
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Some have argued Clemson basketball is a "mid-tier" team
Mar 26, 2019, 12:38 PM
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There is this narrative out there that Brownell has taken Clemson to a "mid-tier" ACC team. Here are the number of NCAAT appearances per team in the ACC since Brownell took over:
Duke - 9
UNC - 9
Syracuse - 7
UVA - 7
UofL - 7
ND - 6
NCST - 5
FSU - 5
Pitt - 4
Miami - 4
VPI - 3
Clemson- 2
WF - 1
GT - 1
BC - 0
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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Becasue Clemson, on average, finishes in the middle
Mar 26, 2019, 12:39 PM
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of the ACC every year?
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Heisman Winner [111418]
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wait
Mar 26, 2019, 12:40 PM
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are you guys not the same person?
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Heisman Winner [111418]
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I mean
Mar 26, 2019, 12:44 PM
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It is pretty impressive that you can log out as Snowtown® and put on your cape and come back as GWPTiger®. in under a minute???
KUDOS bro
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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The difference is that Snowtown is a moran
Mar 26, 2019, 12:45 PM
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and I am slightly less of a moran
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Heisman Winner [111418]
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Re: The difference is that Snowtown is a moran
Mar 26, 2019, 12:48 PM
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Anyone that would thumb up my post would also see how impressive your logging in and out skillz are, or you have two computers. Either way you are booth idjits.
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All-In [43994]
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Brownell's average ACC finish over his 9 years here
Mar 26, 2019, 12:48 PM
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is 7.44. I would say that is very much middle of the pack in the ACC.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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of course you would... despite the fact that only
Mar 26, 2019, 12:49 PM
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WF, GT, and BC have gone to less NCAAT's than us during his tenure.
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All-In [43994]
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Using NCAA Tournament appearances to rank ACC teams
Mar 26, 2019, 12:58 PM
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rather than ranking them based on performance against other ACC teams, makes zero sense.
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All-In [37023]
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Then how are other
Mar 26, 2019, 1:01 PM
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ACC teams making more NCAA tourney's than us if we are finishing average 7th?
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All-In [43994]
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Different reasons.
Mar 26, 2019, 1:28 PM
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One year it was because we didn't do well in the non-conference schedule. This year it was because we didn't have enough quality wins to suit the selection committee.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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so you agree that NCAAT appearances are an indicator of
Mar 26, 2019, 1:31 PM
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of success in your conference, especially with regard to who you beat in your conference?
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All-In [43994]
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No.
Mar 26, 2019, 1:38 PM
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NCAA Tournament appearances are one of several indicators of a successful season overall.
Why are you going to such great lengths to argue against us being a middle of the pack ACC team under Brownell, when our ACC performance during that span of time clearly illustrates that we are?
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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No. That would cause a cognitive dissonance.
Mar 26, 2019, 2:04 PM
[ in reply to so you agree that NCAAT appearances are an indicator of ] |
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If you agree that getting into the NCAA Tournaments and advancing are THE main goals of a basketball team, then you wouldn't be able to support Coach Brownell. Thus, they will direct your attention away from NCAA Tournament appearances and towards conference winning percentages and others measures that nobody gives a crap about.
You know your basketball program is in trouble when the fan base is arguing that it's ACC winning percentages that matter and NOT NCAA Tournament appearances.
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All-In [43994]
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The cognitive dissonance here is changing the argument
Mar 26, 2019, 2:22 PM
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mid-stream.
The fact is that we are a middle of the pack ACC team under Brownell. No debating that, although some people will try. Bringing up NCAA Tournament appearances is fine, but it is a different conversation altogether than how we finish in the ACC.
Not a single person here is pleased with the number of NCAA Tournament appearances under Brownell. We all want more. Where we seem to disagree is why we aren't making more, and how we fix it.
If you think it's all the coach's fault, and that he should be accomplishing more despite poor basketball funding and mostly lackluster fan support, that's your right.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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how do you explain 2 of the last 3 accomplishing more with
Mar 26, 2019, 2:26 PM
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LESS support?
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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You build a mean strawman.
Mar 26, 2019, 2:37 PM
[ in reply to The cognitive dissonance here is changing the argument ] |
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We need to spend more on basketball and hire a better coach. Doing one without the other is poor management.
I've been a Clemson basketball fan since the 60s. Experience tells me that fan support will follow a winner. The ambivalence of the fan base is growing rapidly. If Drad announces that Brad is coming back, look for the ambivalence and disappointment to increase exponentially. Littlejohn will be a ghost town next year.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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All-In [43994]
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Are you reading what you are typing?
Mar 26, 2019, 1:26 PM
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Rather than evaluating ACC teams' conference performance based on how they perform against other ACC teams, you are completely disregarding that and instead choosing to rank them based on how many times they've been in a postseason tournament.
Your trolling has reached a new level.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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Do you not think an NCAAT invite is an indicator of how a
Mar 26, 2019, 1:29 PM
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teams performed in conference, and how difficult their SOS was comparative to those wins? It is absolutely an indicator.
I seem to remember you arguing that we should be in the NCAAT because of our 9-9 conference record. However, we were not. Why? Because how we performed in conference, and who we beat/ didn't beat was considered.
Any performance indicator you can come up with will ultimately lead back to making or missing the NCAAT.
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All-In [43994]
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The best indicator of how we perform in the ACC
Mar 26, 2019, 1:34 PM
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is our record against other ACC teams.
Your choice to rank ACC teams in terms of NCAA Tournament appearances is certainly your prerogative, but it is not a better measure of ranking ACC teams in conference play. In fact, we can choose any metric we please for ranking ACC teams, including:
-Points scored per game
-Points given up per game
-Number of coach of the year awards received
-Number of ACC player of the year awards received
-Number of flagrant fouls called
-Graduation rates
-Basketball funding
-Attendance
So if you want to rank ACC teams using any of those metrics, or another one of your choosing, knock yourself out. But if you want to evaluate Clemson's performance against other ACC teams, the best way to do that is to look at our record against ACC teams. And when you do that, you'll see that our average finish over Brad's nine years is 7.44.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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I have read thousands of posts on Tigernet over the years
Mar 26, 2019, 1:37 PM
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but what you just posted... regarding ways to assess how Clemson is doing in the ACC... may be the stupidest thing I've ever read.
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All-In [43994]
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I'm giving you possible ways of ranking ACC teams
Mar 26, 2019, 1:39 PM
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since you clearly don't like going by the most accurate and relevant metric, which is performance against other ACC teams.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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case in point... you think where you finish in the ACC
Mar 26, 2019, 1:40 PM
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is the "most relevant" metric
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All-In [43994]
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Why are you still trying to argue that Clemson
Mar 26, 2019, 1:41 PM
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is not a middle of the pack ACC team, despite the fact that our results against ACC competition over the past 9 years clearly show that we are?
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Hall of Famer [21815]
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All-In [43994]
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Your reading comprehension is not as good as it could be.
Mar 26, 2019, 1:58 PM
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I did not say that postseason tournament appearances are not a relevant measure of performance. They obviously are.
I said that making a postseason tournament is not as relevant measure of an ACC team's performance against other ACC teams. The topic at hand is how Clemson ranks in terms of ACC finish. Most people realize that this is measured by where Clemson finishes in the ACC relative to other ACC teams against ACC competition.
This isn't hard.
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Hall of Famer [21815]
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See post below, it's not hard....Brownlee is terrible
Mar 26, 2019, 2:08 PM
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against ACC teams with a pulse which clearly skews our ACC results.
And I 100% disagree, if a team with a lesser conference record is getting in over us, it's very clear where we stand in the pecking order of the ACC.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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False. You said Clemson was a middle of the pack ACC team
Mar 26, 2019, 2:09 PM
[ in reply to Your reading comprehension is not as good as it could be. ] |
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I pointed out that, based on NCAAT appearances, we are not. We are, in fact, in the lower third of the conference. If you use any other performance metric to establish where we are, you are fooling yourself into thinking that metric matters. .
If you want to argue that our record against the bottom of the ACC proves we are a middle of the pack team, fine. However, that is the very reason we can't get into the NCAAT more than 1 in 8 years under BB.
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Heisman Winner [111418]
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SHUT UP DORKS
Mar 26, 2019, 2:10 PM
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All-In [43994]
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Clemson is a middle of the pack ACC team
Mar 26, 2019, 2:26 PM
[ in reply to False. You said Clemson was a middle of the pack ACC team ] |
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when you look at where we finish at the end of each of the past nine seasons in conference play. Period. Whether you like it or not, and whether it supports your arguments or not, that metric matters more than any other when the topic at hand is how Clemson performs against ACC competition.
If you want to micro-analyze who those wins came against and whether or not that resulted in postseason play, knock yourself out. Those are important metrics as well. But they don't do anything to nullify the fact that we are a middle of the pack ACC team under Brownell.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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Where do you draw the line at middle of the pack
Mar 26, 2019, 2:16 PM
[ in reply to Your reading comprehension is not as good as it could be. ] |
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vs bottom tier?
Because you're saying his avg finish in conference is 7.4, but I assume that includes times when the ACC only had 12 teams.
Going back to the 2013-2014 season, CBB has finished
6th
9th
8th
12th
T-3rd
T-8th
So 4 out of 6 years we've finished in the bottom half of the conference.
Before that season, in 3 years we finished in the middle of the conference once, bottom half of the conference once and top half of the conference once (his first year).
So if I am correct in thinking back to when teams left the ACC and joined the ACC (and I very well may not be correct), during Brad's tenure here we have finished:
Top half of the conference - 3 times
Middle of the conference - 1 time
Bottom half of the conference - 5 times
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All-In [43994]
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Evidently it's wherever Snowtown wants to draw it.
Mar 26, 2019, 2:29 PM
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And that line can change whenever necessary to suit the current argument.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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nice deflection***
Mar 26, 2019, 2:34 PM
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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I couldn't care less about Snowtown's line
Mar 26, 2019, 3:00 PM
[ in reply to Evidently it's wherever Snowtown wants to draw it. ] |
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I'm asking where you draw the line because you are arguing our average finish is 7.4. However, more times than not we have finished in the bottom half of the league while Brad has been here. So what do you consider middle of the pack?
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All-In [43994]
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Assuming 15 ACC teams
Mar 26, 2019, 3:27 PM
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Tier 1: Teams 1-5
Tier 2: Teams 6-10
Tier 3: Teams 11-15
Pretty simple.
Since you want to start with 2012-2013, when the ACC went from a 16 game to an 18 game schedule, here are our finishes:
11th, 6th, 9th, 7th, 12th, 3rd, and 8th.
That is an average finish of 8th in a 15 team league.
During those 7 seasons, using my three tiers above, we finished in tier 1 once, tier 2 four times, and tier 3 twice.
I don't see how anyone can possibly argue that as being anything other than middle of the pack.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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you think the 10th place team in a 15 team league is
Mar 26, 2019, 3:29 PM
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tier 2?
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All-In [43994]
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Breaking the conference into thirds is reasonable.
Mar 26, 2019, 3:31 PM
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Upper third, middle third, and lower third.
This isn't difficult...unless you want to make it difficult, of course. And I realize you probably do.
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Hall of Famer [21815]
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Or it fits the story you want to tell....
Mar 26, 2019, 3:33 PM
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Bottom half 5 of 9 years is how I see it.
That's a fair way of looking at it, right?
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All-In [43994]
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You are welcome to view it any way you like.
Mar 26, 2019, 3:36 PM
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I think most would agree that finishing 8th out of 15 teams is clearly middle of the pack.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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So since we went to 15 teams, had Brad Brownell finished
Mar 26, 2019, 4:34 PM
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6th out of 15 every single season, you would have no arguments with someone who said we're a middle of the pack team in the ACC? My guess is you'd argue that he has outperformed more than half of the conference
7th and 8th, I'll give you that as being "middle of the pack." 6th, 9th and 10th...those are stretches. I guess I would look at "middle third" as being different than "middle of the pack."
Statistically, if you stretch out that concept, would you say that 34 is middle of the pack out of 99? Or 1,001 is middle of the pack out of 3,000?
Message was edited by: GWPTiger®
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Orange Blooded [3612]
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Re: Evidently it's wherever Snowtown wants to draw it.
Mar 26, 2019, 3:39 PM
[ in reply to Evidently it's wherever Snowtown wants to draw it. ] |
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And he reserves the right to call YOUR argument stupid because you pointed out a dozen different measuring sticks that might contradict his preset conclusion.
Even though our Tigers missed the NCAA, Snowtown has developed a severe case of March Madness.
Hang in there, guys. April is only a few days away!
I'm sure the rational Snowtown will be back soon!
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Orange Blooded [3612]
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Re: Evidently it's wherever Snowtown wants to draw it.
Mar 26, 2019, 3:39 PM
[ in reply to Evidently it's wherever Snowtown wants to draw it. ] |
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And he reserves the right to call YOUR argument stupid because you pointed out a dozen different measuring sticks that might contradict his preset conclusion.
Even though our Tigers missed the NCAA, Snowtown has developed a severe case of March Madness.
Hang in there, guys. April is only a few days away!
I'm sure the rational Snowtown will be back soon!
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Orange Blooded [3612]
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Re: Evidently it's wherever Snowtown wants to draw it.
Mar 26, 2019, 3:39 PM
[ in reply to Evidently it's wherever Snowtown wants to draw it. ] |
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And he reserves the right to call YOUR argument stupid because you pointed out a dozen different measuring sticks that might contradict his preset conclusion.
Even though our Tigers missed the NCAA, Snowtown has developed a severe case of March Madness.
Hang in there, guys. April is only a few days away!
I'm sure the rational Snowtown will be back soon!
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Hall of Famer [21815]
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ACC results by year. Using ACCT for tie breakers
Mar 26, 2019, 2:46 PM
[ in reply to Where do you draw the line at middle of the pack ] |
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2010-2011 - 4th out of 12
2011-2012 - 7th out of 12
2012-2013 - 11th out of 12
2013-2014 - 6th out of 15
2014-2015 - 9th out of 15
2015-2016 - 8th out of 15
2016-2017 - 12th out of 15
2017-2018 - 4th out of 15
2018-2019 - 9th out of 15
So bottom half 5 of 9 and the 7.4 he touts is skewed due to 12 vs 15 teams in the league depending on year. Not saying that was intentional, but....
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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Throw the first year out as that was all Oliver Purnell.
Mar 26, 2019, 2:50 PM
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If Brad doesn't change his approach halfway through that season and stop playing slowdown ball and instead let them run, we don't make the tournament that year.
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All-In [43994]
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When does Oliver Purnell stop getting credit for Brad's
Mar 26, 2019, 3:32 PM
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teams?
You already said that Brad's first year doesn't count since it was "all Oliver Purnell." What about years two and three, at which time the full effect of Purnell's subpar recruiting started to become evident?
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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so OP is responsible for BB's year 3
Mar 26, 2019, 3:40 PM
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really?
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All-In [43994]
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I merely asked the question
Mar 26, 2019, 8:09 PM
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since he said that Brownell's first year was "all Oliver Purnell."
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Hall of Famer [21815]
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All-In [43994]
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Starting in 2012-2013 when the ACC went from 16
Mar 26, 2019, 3:29 PM
[ in reply to ACC results by year. Using ACCT for tie breakers ] |
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to 18 league games, our average ACC finish over those 7 seasons is 8.
If that 0.56 difference is important to you and changes your perception of the data...okay.
Nothing intentional at all. The argument is still the same, we're clearly a middle of the pack ACC team, finishing on average 8th out of 15 teams.
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All-TigerNet [10901]
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Hall of Famer [21815]
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Oculus Spirit [81977]
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Re: Deer Judge....
Mar 26, 2019, 1:54 PM
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Legend [15212]
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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and games against mid to upper ACC teams***
Mar 26, 2019, 1:11 PM
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Hall of Famer [21815]
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110%er [6825]
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Re: But beating up on the bottom of the ACC is?***
Mar 26, 2019, 3:00 PM
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Which at the same time, Brad was better against .500+ teams than Rick Barnes by a small margin. Brad averages 1.9 wins over a .500+ team per season to Rick Barnes of 1.7 wins per season.
Viztiz is interesting but flawed. You have a lot of selection bias that prevents true comparison/generalization from the data he selected. Not taking into account the rise of the mid-major should be a major flag.
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Orange Blooded [2403]
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Re: Brownell's average ACC finish over his 9 years here
Mar 26, 2019, 1:35 PM
[ in reply to Brownell's average ACC finish over his 9 years here ] |
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Sure if that is your goal. But if getting to the dance is your goal, we are not middle of the pack. So what is the goal? Win or or maybe two games in the NIT each year?
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All-In [27367]
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Re: Some have argued Clemson basketball is a "mid-tier" team
Mar 26, 2019, 12:48 PM
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It would be more realistic if you compared win/lose data rather than tournament appearances. And even that would not tell the whole story.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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why? Do you not think success in major college basketball
Mar 26, 2019, 12:50 PM
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is determined by NCAAT appearances...
Any other indicator you want to throw out there ultimately will lead back to NCAAT appearances. Every. One.
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All-In [43994]
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LOL***
Mar 26, 2019, 12:59 PM
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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name one that does not point back to NCAAT appearances***
Mar 26, 2019, 1:03 PM
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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Graduating players. Next question...***
Mar 26, 2019, 1:08 PM
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All-TigerNet [13359]
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Inverse correlation
Mar 26, 2019, 1:12 PM
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juan and done
just sayin'
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Oculus Spirit [81977]
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lol
Mar 26, 2019, 12:50 PM
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GT, WF and BC really have the suck.
just lol
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All-In [40736]
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The same was said about our football program ten years ago.
Mar 26, 2019, 12:53 PM
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To quote Dabo, “What do they say now?”
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All-TigerNet [13359]
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The same was said about our football program UNDER BOWDEN
Mar 26, 2019, 1:00 PM
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You guys fill in the blanks...
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All-In [40736]
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THANK YOU
Mar 26, 2019, 2:00 PM
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For filling it in for me??
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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Re: Some have argued Clemson basketball is a "mid-tier" team
Mar 26, 2019, 12:55 PM
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Would you rather be Pitt or Notre Dame fans who can say:
"I feel happy how many times we made the tournament 5-9 years ago even though we currently have the sucks."
I will take the current state of Clemson's program over Pitt or Notre Dame.
Also Louisville hooked for tournament appearances. No thank you to that.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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What if we got a national championship out of it?
Mar 26, 2019, 12:57 PM
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Still "no thank you to that?"
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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Re: What if we got a national championship out of it?
Mar 26, 2019, 1:02 PM
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No thank you to setting players up with hookers to get recruits.
It doesn't matter what the results would be.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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What if we were just paying recruits to get a
Mar 26, 2019, 1:07 PM
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national championship? What then?
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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Re: What if we were just paying recruits to get a
Mar 26, 2019, 1:33 PM
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No thank you.
I do respect the lengths to which you are testing my message bored morals but I am no moran.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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What if a certain megachurch sent funds to recruits
Mar 26, 2019, 1:54 PM
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and as a result we win a national championship, but the coach claims he knew nothing about it? What then?
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All-TigerNet [13359]
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Re: What if a certain megachurch sent funds to recruits***
Mar 26, 2019, 2:39 PM
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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Re: You would take where Clemson is over where Mike Brey
Mar 26, 2019, 1:05 PM
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In the last 2 seasons they have been 8-10 and 3-15 in the conference.
I'm confused by your question.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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I would say he's earned a little bit of leeway there...
Mar 26, 2019, 1:09 PM
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NCAAT in 07,08,10,11,12,13, 15, 16, 17
They've been down for a couple of years, but I would absolutely take that right now
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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Re: I would say he's earned a little bit of leeway there...
Mar 26, 2019, 1:35 PM
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It's all about what have you done for me lately but I agree that his job should not be in trouble.
Being on that level from 07-17 would have been great.
I would not want to trade places with them the last 2 seasons.
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Legend [19567]
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All-TigerNet [11478]
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Re: Next year both will be better than us***
Mar 26, 2019, 1:36 PM
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Are you sure?
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Legend [19567]
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Absolutely
Mar 26, 2019, 2:02 PM
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Unless you can tell me who our PG will be, who can create their own shot, who can consistently hit the 3, and who will be an offensive presence in the post. Because right now we have no one remotely proven to do any of those things
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Walk-On [133]
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Re: Some have argued Clemson basketball is a "mid-tier" team
Mar 26, 2019, 1:14 PM
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Am I reading this wrong? UNC has only made 6 NCAAT appearances since the 2010-2011 season? They have been to all of them during that span, same as Duke.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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correct... I was looking at Sweet 16's by mistake...
Mar 26, 2019, 1:22 PM
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I will correct
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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To take this a step further this year...
Mar 26, 2019, 1:35 PM
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6 of our 9 conference wins were against the bottom 5 teams on this list (Clemson excluded)
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Orange Blooded [3612]
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Re: To take this a step further this year...
Mar 26, 2019, 7:12 PM
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Wait. I thought that was proof we are a mid-tier program. We beat the teams below us. We lost to the teams above us.
Note to OP: the effort our players gave night in and night out resulted in numerous close games that you constantly complain about. Our double-digit wins over the "below us" teams put us closer to beating the "above us" teams than you want to portray. That definitely puts us mid-tier.
If you're saying that by firing Brownell, this inability to supplant Syracuse, Louisville and VaTech in the dance will magically fix itself, fine. I'll buy a ticket to your magic show.
But I'm bringing rotten tomatoes and barring the back door, because i think you're clueless about the game of basketball, building a program or leading quality young men. And your show will be just as fraudulent as your arguments.
I think you're snowed in and bored and just wanna cause trouble. Oh, yeah. You're also wearing your Zion jersey to bed, aren't you?
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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When I look at those teams in order, this is my opinion...
Mar 26, 2019, 1:36 PM
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Duke - 9 (sucks at football)
UNC - 9 (sucks at football)
Syracuse - 7 (mediocre at football)
UVA - 7 (sucks at football, still beat coots 28-0 - lol)
UofL - 7 (sucks at football)
ND - 6 (we beat their ### at football)
NCST - 5 (sucks at football)
FSU - 5 (sucks at football)
Pitt - 4 (sucks at football)
VPI - 3 (sucks at football)
Clemson- 2 (awesome at football, has been in the CFP 4 straight years and won 2 out of the last 3 football national championships)
WF - 1 (sucks at football)
GT - 1 (sucks at football)
BC - 0 (sucks at football)
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110%er [6825]
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Re: When I look at those teams in order, this is my opinion...
Mar 26, 2019, 3:01 PM
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Can I say you sir are King of Clemson for the day.
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110%er [5079]
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Sorry if already pointed out, but Miami is missing from the list. 4 appearances for them***
Mar 26, 2019, 2:24 PM
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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thank you... corrected***
Mar 26, 2019, 2:27 PM
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Walk-On [141]
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Re: Some have argued Clemson basketball is a "mid-tier" team
Mar 26, 2019, 3:17 PM
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For those complaining that we need to spend more $$. How much are we paying the new asst Simmons, who comes with a slightly better that .500 record for the asst 11 years. And how many assistants do we now have ? Just wondering
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Walk-On [141]
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Re: Some have argued Clemson basketball is a "mid-tier" team
Mar 26, 2019, 3:20 PM
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Meant LAST 11 years as a head coach.
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