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YOUR BALANCE
Serious debate on CBB
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Serious debate on CBB


Feb 19, 2018, 9:22 AM

Honest questions need to be answered by both sides of this debate.

I like CBB. I think at times he does about as good as he can with what he's had to work with. But I also understand the CBB haters.... so here are the questions that need to be answered by both sides.


1. Why? No matter what, helll or high water do a majority in here defend him no matter what.... regardless of the obvious.

2. What do the CBB haters want? What? Who can we get at this point?

3. At some point the pumpers have to realize the results have to matter. Yes, we have had a great year..... But you can't argue with the facts! He's been here for several years and made the tournament 1 time.....with OP players. That can't be argued.

4. Haters..... what do you want in results that are " reasonable "? I would say make the tournament at least 1 out of every 3 years???

5. This question is for both sides.... In the big dance.... if we go out in round 1....Then what?

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For informational purposes, I believe CBB has, but 3 years..


Feb 19, 2018, 9:28 AM

remaining under contract after this season ends.

So something will change it would seem.

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I have my answer.


Feb 19, 2018, 9:32 AM

I was on his case in the past because I didn't think he could get a quality team together with depth. I even thought he should be let go. Then I saw how it was coming together before this season. Now I see a solid improved team and season happening. There is no reason for your post this year. The timing is idiotic.

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Re: I have my answer.


Feb 19, 2018, 9:58 AM

This is why it's almost impossible for discussion on here.... Just because you don't agree doesn't mean this post is idiotic.... grow up

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Sorry, but some things are just idiotic.


Feb 19, 2018, 12:38 PM

Bringing this issue up at this stage, during what has been a great season, perfectly exemplifies idiotic.

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Pre-season the consensus threshold for acceptable was ...


Feb 20, 2018, 1:23 PM [ in reply to I have my answer. ]

... simply make the NCAA tournament.

Well, we will meet that threshold. That should be sufficient. But, people always want to raise the bar once it becomes obvious that minimum standards have been met. The bar should not be raised this season ... especially while winding up the season short-handed.

After this year, the minimum threshold should be make the NCAA tournament consistently.

That will be Brad Brownell's challenge going forward. Recruit players who can win enough games to make the tournament year-in and year out.

Clemson should always get an NCAA bid at a minimum.

After that, it will be to make the tournament consistently and actually win some tournament games.

If and when we get to the point that we make the tournament consistently, then it goes without saying that we should expect the team to advance.

How far they should advance is probably the hardest question to address. High expectations here may be unrealistic.

Consistently getting NCAA bids and advancing every time is something that Clemson has never, ever done.

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I agree 100% with everything you said!***


Feb 20, 2018, 2:31 PM



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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: Serious debate on CBB


Feb 19, 2018, 9:38 AM

1) That is 100% not what happens on here. Most watned him out at the end of last year.

2) I dont know who we get that isnt my job to figure out. I do know doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results is dumb though.

3) Results do matter but so do the tools that he is given to achieve those results. Up until the last year our facilities have been some of the worst in the ACC. Facilities matter in recruiting hell look at the Football surge when we finished the WEZ and started putting money into facilities.

4) IMO NCAAT 1 of 3 years is not asking too much at all. Being one of the top 40 teams in the country is not too much to ask.

5) He is back next year regardless IMO. If we didnt send him packing last year then we wont this year.

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March 4th 2016- "Lee won't be here 4 years from today" - Viztiz


Re: Serious debate on CBB


Feb 19, 2018, 12:17 PM

#3- The last coach had the same facilities. His last two seasons our recruiting class ranked 30th and 15th nationally. Our last two classes under Brownell with new facilities ranked in the 40s.

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Re: Serious debate on CBB


Feb 19, 2018, 12:30 PM

You do realize that transfers aren’t considered in recruiting rankings, right?

Wait, that would go against your dumping agenda.

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Re: Serious debate on CBB


Feb 19, 2018, 12:36 PM [ in reply to Re: Serious debate on CBB ]

I think this is it in a nutshell....

Olvier won here with the so called crappy facilities. CBB has done nothing.

anybody trying to make an argument that he's done a good job over his tenure here is foolish. The numbers and results don't lie..... people may lie and people have opinions, but the numbers don't.


Will we ever be a Duke and UNC? of course not.... but to ask to be competitive and make the tourny every few years is not unrealistic.

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Oliver also left on his own accord


Feb 19, 2018, 1:17 PM

So did Barnes etc, Clemson was a stepping stone and Oliver left because he smacked near the end.

OP reminds me of PJ at Georgia Tech, the press/option will beat below average/average teams and occasionally the good team that has little time to prepare for it.

However, the welll coached teams and teams with superior talent exploit the press and you are left with no other option.

At a school with little tradition and history, the press led to some decent seasons, but the ceiling was met with 4 straight first round exits.

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3 straight 1st round exits, the rest is spot on...The PJ


Feb 19, 2018, 1:20 PM

analogy is brilliant

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Re: 3 straight 1st round exits, the rest is spot on...The PJ


Feb 19, 2018, 1:36 PM

The PJ analogy is ignorant. OP’s system attracted athletes and gave Clemson an edge.

If you want an analogy to PJ....hiring him to replace Dabo would be similar to what we did by replacing Brownell with OP. We went from a fast paced system that was bringing in athletes to boring white boy basketball and you can’t win consistently at Clemson with that style because you can’t recruit “basketball” players.

The stats agree with me.

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Nope...OP is more akin to PJ***


Feb 19, 2018, 1:47 PM



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Re: 3 straight 1st round exits, the rest is spot on...The PJ


Feb 19, 2018, 1:52 PM [ in reply to Re: 3 straight 1st round exits, the rest is spot on...The PJ ]

My analogy is not ignorant, the press equals the option and you’re ignorant if you don’t realize that.

And what stats are that?

OP:

4 years below .500 in ACC
1 ten win season
3 winning seasons

Brownell:

3 years below .500 in ACC
2 ten win seasons (maybe 3 with this year)
3 winning ACC seasons

It would actually be 4, but I left out his first year to prove my point he did that all with his players and each did this in a 7 year tenure.

Keep on using skewed recruiting rankings that don’t incorporate transfers and whatever stats you have to back up your claim.

I’d love to see them cause you are looking pretty ignorant right now.

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Re: 3 straight 1st round exits, the rest is spot on...The PJ


Feb 19, 2018, 3:35 PM

Ok genius, let me explain something to you....

Oliver Purnell inherited a dumpster fire program. You can't nit pick the overall records and ignore that. Clemson had a .250 conference winning percentage under Larry Shyatt. By his third season he won 19 games, his fourth season he won 25 games, and his last three seasons had a winning record in conference and made the NCAA's each season while winning 20+ games. He also played for an ACC tournament championship and his last two recruiting classes were the highest in Clemson history.

That's what Brownell inherited. He made the tournament his first season with Purnell's players and hasn't been back since. In year EIGHT we're finally going to make it again.

The press equals the option? What kind of comparison is that? Purnell's game was press and run the court on offense while the triple option is slow it down and run the ball every play. How in the world can you say that?

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OP started winning at a higher rate in the ACC when the ACC


Feb 20, 2018, 9:44 AM

was having some of the worst years it had in a while. Hell, one year the league finished with only two teams ranked.

That was evident by his record in those tournaments that he made, when we were ceremoniously bounced in the first round, much like many ACC Tournaments. Let us not forget his last two years, losing to #12 seed GT and #11 seed NC State.

His last two recruiting classes were the highest in Clemson history?

2008: 3*'s: Andre Young, Tanner Smith, Catalin Baicu; 2* Bryan Narcisse

2009: 3* Donte Hill; 4*'s Noel Johnson, Devin Booker; 5* Milton Jennings.

If 2008 was one of the top two recruiting classes in Clemson history then we should just fold up shop, however, Brownell's recruiting class from last year with Sims, Trapp, etc. was much better than the 2008 recruiting class, if going by stars.

You can argue by star rating that 2009 was a good class, but Hill and Johnson transferred out (didn't hear much about them either), Jennings was not a 5* in reality, and Booker didn't live up to the hype of him being just like Trevor.

You've got a little revisionist history going on here, because as I recall OP left Clemson, we didn't send him away.

The press is a gimmick scheme, just like the triple option is in football. It works great against undisciplined teams to even up the game, however, when you run into a solid team it will not work (and history has shown this). Comparing the objective of each respective scheme in their own sport is purely ignorant, and does not equate to the message you're trying to make.

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Re: OP started winning at a higher rate in the ACC when the ACC


Feb 20, 2018, 10:33 AM

Ok. Keep living in denial. The stats speak for themselves....

And I've proven this garbage that the ACC was "down" during those years completely wrong in years past. Not the first time someone has thrown that out.

North Carolina won TWO national titles during the OP years, one of them was the year we played them for the ACC championship.

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Dude, I'm not living in denial, you are.


Feb 20, 2018, 11:03 AM

Clearly you feel we got rid of OP when it was actually 100% the opposite. By the way, the greener pasture he left us for, how did that work out?

In 07-08 4 ACC teams made the tourney, in 08-09 7 did (4 lost in the first round), in 09-10 6 got in, only 1 made it to the Sweet Sixteen.

I'm sorry to break it to you, but during his 3 year tourney run the ACC was down. That doesn't mean an ACC team didn't win the championship, because that has nothing to do with the conference as a whole.

I believe you brought up the year he won 25 games (including the NIT), so why didn't we make the tourney? Oh, because we finished 7-9 in the ACC, which was tougher than his tourney run years.

Take a look back at his OOC records and who he played, they were cupcakes of the sweetest variety. I'm sorry if the facts are messing up your revisionist history, but there is a reason we struggled in Tournament play under OP.

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kenpom says OP had it much harder & finished much higher...


Feb 20, 2018, 12:24 PM

more consistently, against a more difficult road to whore errr ho.




Too much emotion; no one listens.

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Re: kenpom says OP had it much harder & finished much higher...


Feb 20, 2018, 12:45 PM

In the 2007-2008 season we went 1-3 against ranked teams, and that was only due to beating Duke in the ACC Tourney. Only 4 ACC teams made the tournament that year, so I believe KenPom is a bit off on this one.

I'd love to see all the metrics put together, not just KenPom though.

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I'm not sure you'll like any of them, I kept track of kenpom


Feb 20, 2018, 1:00 PM

because it seemed the most well-received, compared to something nuts-and-bolts, say RPI. At some point they've made a slight adjustment to KP, but the story is true in all of the other[s] I casually followed.

Brad Brownell has underachieved until this year and the Admin clearly agreed when they ravaged his buy-out. His ACC schedule was very weak in a few years and he benefited greatly from it.

People give him credit for graduating players & keeping them out of the headlines for the most. I'm sorry, but that's his job description and would be considered Meets Expectations by Human Resources.

No coach is hired to do the opposite, while some do fail at the above or not meet expectations and are then shown the door for that failure - as it should be.

OP is a shitass for not saying goodbye to his kids and honestly, I'm tired of people bashing those players because they were recruited to a far different system. They could have left as have many during CBB's tenure, part of the process some say, but they stay true to Clemson.

But, OP took his Golden Parachute and I'll never blame a person for that. Good riddance, but it doesn't change he took Clemson's Basketball Brand to a pinnacle, packing a 10,000 seat LJ in the process.

CBB took this job, eyes wide open, but he was a square peg to fit the players & system he'd inherited. I thought he did a fantastic job his first year, truly, but the program has languished according to results since.

If patience pays off and somehow CBB manages to end this year with relative verve, then earn another year[?], contract is only 3 years after this one ends, then god bless his little cotton socks, but I'll not throw OP or his players under the bus because of CBB's failures.


EDIT: Found his NIT year; 10 wins versus the 7th place team or worse. That's how a supposedly harder, but larger ACC can be made easier.



CBB and team are having a great year, would be nice to just enjoy it.

Go Tigers.


Message was edited by: deadsolidperfect®


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Re: I'm not sure you'll like any of them, I kept track of kenpom


Feb 20, 2018, 1:57 PM

That's fine, but as I mentioned in 2008 only 4 ACC teams made the tourney. Doesn't matter what arbitrary SOS numbers you look at that is a fact and shows that the ACC was not all it was cracked up to be.

Saying Brownell has underachieved during his tenure is a bit of an overstatement, sure he's had a couple of bad years but he's also done quite well in the ACC overall (including the tournament; OP was out in one game 5-7 years).

Yes, he graduates players and we rarely have any negative press in that regard. However, Meets expectations is only one of two options in that HR scenario, you can't exceed expectations by graduating more players than you have. It's more of a pass/fail, and he passes.

His contract won't remain 3 years after this year, if we're keeping him he will be granted a 1-2 year extension. You don't want a coach with less than 4 years on a contract as that negatively impacts recruiting, which is hard enough as it is.

As for your spreadsheet, in 2013-2014 we only played BC once, replace one of those with Duke. Yes, they won 3 games against higher ranked teams in 2009-2010, however, they also lost in the first round of the ACC Tournament to NC State. In 2013-2014 we won our first round game and lost by 1 to Duke, which if we had won that game most likely gets us to the tourney as we were a bubble team.

Look, I agree that OP did wonderful things here, it was a great time for Clemson basketball. But the people who act like he was a God and that seem to misremember the details of his leaving and us hiring Brownell like we could have hired Bill Self are ridiculous. That's my main point.

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I need no more than the CUAD bending his buy-out


Feb 20, 2018, 2:24 PM

over in exchange for 1 year so he could recruit as a 4 year coach to prove he underachieved in the eyes of jerk-offs that are not me or you.

6 straight years of post season to the debacle, my word, we've had since screams louder as do some of the real results & real reasons DRad finally shit on CBB's contract. It doesn't get any clearer.

I like the man and I 'magine the university likes him as well or he'd not've survived this long.

And calling an entire year's relative numbers arbitrary as opposed to hunting & pecking 4 games or teams, here and there? You can't be serious.

The overall is a far better picture than what you're attempting. I won't entertain it, sorry, it's a waste of good time. The numbers clearly support OP's time and road traveled, that's not the whole story, no, but it's crystal compared to people trying to muddy the waters as has been the effort of anyone defending CBB, because he done good in the classroom or the IFs you started to introduce again.

I don't think Bill Self was coming, just more crap to muddy the waters.

No one wants CBB to succeed more than me, but it doesn't change missing 4 of 7 post seasons on the heels of 6 straight.

It's not a good look and no, OP isn't a God, not remotely. I could not agree more on that, but he did fantastic considering the dump Shyatt left him.

I know Barnes recommended CBB, but he was cheap and all the recruiting inroads that had been made with 40 minutes of hell in mind were lost and the Clemson Basketball brand strength soon to follow.

JHop is a straight up jackass, most of what he does is to get people's emotions brought to a slow rolling boil. He's already had one user banned in @Skeeter3 for very much the same, maybe JHop will soon follow?

Go Tigers, this is getting older than my grandaddy's buckskin rubber. When CBB earned the job, he did not win it by selling the crap he returned in his first 5-6 years, no way.




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Re: I need no more than the CUAD bending his buy-out


Feb 20, 2018, 3:37 PM

"JHop is a straight up #######, most of what he does is to get people's emotions brought to a slow rolling boil. He's already had one user banned in @Skeeter3 for very much the same, maybe JHop will soon follow?"

Actually Skeeter3 was never banned and everything I've posted here has been 100% accurate as usual....

So....there's that.

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"Actually Skeeter3 was never banned...


Feb 20, 2018, 3:41 PM

and everything I've posted here has been 100% accurate...



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Re: "Actually Skeeter3 was never banned...


Feb 20, 2018, 3:51 PM

Banned because one of the mods asked which handle I wanted to keep.

I don't get banned for breaking the rules like you have....

I can actually post on the internet without getting emotional and personally insulting people.

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So you were using two handles at the same time and had to


Feb 20, 2018, 3:53 PM

put one to bed...Can you still post as Skeeter? No, because it was BANNED

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correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't having two active


Feb 20, 2018, 3:54 PM [ in reply to Re: "Actually Skeeter3 was never banned... ]

handles against the rules? And if not, why did the mods make you bullet one of them?

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Re: correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't having two active


Feb 20, 2018, 3:55 PM

Idk you'd have to ask them.

I'm sure deadsolidperfect® is tattling on me right now.

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you're the one citing rules, I asked you***


Feb 20, 2018, 3:56 PM



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He's too stupid to have this conversation with Shack...


Feb 20, 2018, 4:04 PM

and he's only going to continue to deflect, like the petulant child he's always been.

Telling for sure.

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Re: "Actually Skeeter3 was never banned...


Feb 20, 2018, 4:00 PM [ in reply to Re: "Actually Skeeter3 was never banned... ]

Can post on the internet without getting emotional, yet calls our style of basketball "white boy basketball."

Pretty sure that's using emotions.

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So you're a liar, you're wrong & though you may feel...


Feb 20, 2018, 4:01 PM [ in reply to Re: "Actually Skeeter3 was never banned... ]

everything you write is 100% truth, your subjective, it in no way impeaches my original statement.

You've always had trouble keeping up, so no surprise there.

You're straight up jackass bent on riling people's emotions.

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yeah, but other than that...He wasn't banned, they just took


Feb 20, 2018, 4:10 PM

away his ability to post

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Maybe he's broken and color blind, doesn't see red so good?***


Feb 20, 2018, 4:15 PM



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Sounds like a buddy of mine, he didn't get fired, they just


Feb 20, 2018, 4:24 PM

told him to stop coming in and quit issuing him a check

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didn't you get caught upvoting your own posts liar?***


Feb 20, 2018, 3:48 PM [ in reply to Re: I need no more than the CUAD bending his buy-out ]



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Re: I'm not sure you'll like any of them, I kept track of kenpom


Feb 20, 2018, 3:30 PM [ in reply to Re: I'm not sure you'll like any of them, I kept track of kenpom ]

"Look, I agree that OP did wonderful things here, it was a great time for Clemson basketball"

Then why the hell have you spent all day arguing the exact opposite?

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Re: I'm not sure you'll like any of them, I kept track of kenpom


Feb 20, 2018, 3:43 PM

I've been arguing that he's not as good as your revisionist history would make him out to be.

Like I've said multiple times today, it's not that hard.

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Re: I'm not sure you'll like any of them, I kept track of kenpom


Feb 20, 2018, 3:48 PM

My original statement in this thread was simply that Purnell recruited better and got better results with the same facilities to a poster who used that as an excuse for Brownell. That's it....

Never said the guy was the greatest coach in the history of basketball.

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Re: I'm not sure you'll like any of them, I kept track of kenpom


Feb 20, 2018, 3:59 PM

Littlejohn was renovated once in 2002-2003, which made it a decent facility for the time. 12 years later it was not a good facility, much worse than what OP was working with 10-15 years ago.

You didn't have to say he was the greatest coach, your posts do that for you.

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Re: I'm not sure you'll like any of them, I kept track of kenpom


Feb 20, 2018, 4:37 PM

You spent the entire day downplaying Purnell's success based on the supposed fact that the ACC was weaker during his tenure. When you were shown by another poster that was false you suddenly recognized that OP did a lot of great things at Clemson and then shifted your focus to claiming I made him out to be some kind of god and I never did that.

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Re: I'm not sure you'll like any of them, I kept track of kenpom


Feb 20, 2018, 4:50 PM

Nope, I've said you had revisionist history all day.

Yeah, the numbers don't support it, but as I pointed out in 2007-2008 the ACC sent 4 teams to the NCAA tourney. That's right, one, two, three, FOUR. Sorry, but if that isn't a sign of a weakened conference I don't know what is.

In 2009-2010 VT went 23-7 (10-6) in the regular season but was left out of the tourney. That's right, 23 wins, 10 in conference and left out. UNC went 5-11 in conference, UVA was terrible, NC State was terrible, Miami was a dumpster fire, the list goes on.

We took advantage while some of the perennial powers were down, and then we added some more perennial powers that OP didn't have to face.

So sorry, but I didn't shift.

OP did do great things, he took advantage of a lesser ACC and got us to the tourney. He did some not so great things as well, losing to 11 and 12 seeds in the ACC Tourney and losing in the NCAA Tourney.

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When we had the third winningest team in the ACC for 3


Feb 20, 2018, 3:04 PM [ in reply to Re: OP started winning at a higher rate in the ACC when the ACC ]

years, the 4th place team in that time frame didn't SNIFF the Tourney

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Also, let's not forget the last recruiting cycle


Feb 20, 2018, 2:37 PM [ in reply to OP started winning at a higher rate in the ACC when the ACC ]

for Purnell, which consisted of just ONE recruit. He ended up not coming to Clemson. Brownell was left scrambling to sign anyone, so he brought a recruit with him from Wright State who was clearly not ACC caliber. Brownell had no choice, as he would've been left with zero recruits otherwise.

People can say all they want to about OP taking the DePaul job due to getting a sizable raise, or because his wife wanted to live in Chicago, or because he was having an affair. But the reality of the situation is that his declining recruiting, and players not panning out, surely played a role in his decision. There was no way OP was going to sustain his run of 20 win seasons and NCAA appearances beyond 2010-2011 (and I'm not convinced he would've made the NCAAs that year either).

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Absolutely OP would've and the only reason, real


Feb 20, 2018, 2:55 PM

reason we know he left, was $15 million guaranteed. Thanks to Depaul for his retirement.

6 straight years versus your conjecture? It's crazy talk or hopeful thinking in defending the current coach.

Brad knew what Brad was getting into and if not, then Brad's a bigger idgit than some of the people defending him and his results, well, through year 7 and the raping of his contract for all the real reasons given, under-performing.




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Brad had no idea about how many things lurked under


Feb 20, 2018, 3:03 PM

the surface in our basketball program. Those were issues which came to light after he was our coach. Let's just say that some of those issues will never be public knowledge, but were absolutely significant.

I agree that Brownell had some learning to do as he made the transition from mid-major basketball to the ACC, but he has shown an ability to work his tail off to learn and improve. What you see this year is the result of that, as well as better administrative support.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Sorry Judge, I really do value your opinion, but he's not


Feb 20, 2018, 3:12 PM

a dead man walking coming into this year without crapping the bed in the eyes of those that are all, in the know.

I don't need to see or know more than what is there for all to see. It's clear his time is/was short and our AD made the moves to make it an easy turnover, by removing Mediation in his buy-out, making it clinical, clear-cut and likely escrowing the amount, if not done already.

You have a journey, I've always appreciated you taking your good time and sharing your passion for the program and its future. I wish more posters were you, but that doesn't mean I share in your conclusions; I've said as much before.

At least you do take the time and are calculating in your offerings; it's always appreciated.

Go Tigers.

We have a great team and coach this year, hopefully SM is cleared soon. Who knows, never good to be injured or hurt, but the few days of rest might bode well for his legs and the remainder of the season. He's needed, a tough guard driven team awaits in Blacksburg.

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I don't disagree with what you said.


Feb 20, 2018, 4:24 PM

I imagine a lot of good conversation was had during the 2.5 hour meeting between Brownell and Radakovich last year. Radakovich likely let Brad know that he is not meeting expectations in terms of NCAA Tournament appearances, but because Brad has done an outstanding job in every other facet of the program and had some major obstacles along the way, he would get another year. The contract was restructured in a way that was advantageous for Brownell for recruiting purposes but also to Clemson should we need to part ways with him in the future.

Brad was also asked to get rid of Mike Weinecki, which was the correct move.

I also believe that Brownell candidly identified some aspects of the administration's support which need improving. If you'll notice, Brad finally got approval for a recruiting support staff that he had been asking for for several years. He also got raises approved for a couple of key assistants.

All in all, our program is in a better place now as a result of that meeting. Brad knows that he has to produce and win more games, and the CU AD knows that it better do more to support basketball than to just pay it lip service every now and then.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: 3 straight 1st round exits, the rest is spot on...The PJ


Feb 20, 2018, 12:32 PM [ in reply to Re: 3 straight 1st round exits, the rest is spot on...The PJ ]

They both are systems to allow you with lower talent level to compete with the big boys because you can't beat them at their game one on one. It's that they are both systems to make up for lesser talent.

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Re: 3 straight 1st round exits, the rest is spot on...The PJ


Feb 20, 2018, 12:36 PM

Yet Purnell was pulling in more talented players....

The coots say we run a gimmick offense in football.

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Re: 3 straight 1st round exits, the rest is spot on...The PJ


Feb 20, 2018, 12:42 PM

More talented players ***based on one website.

FTFY.

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Re: 3 straight 1st round exits, the rest is spot on...The PJ


Feb 20, 2018, 3:40 PM

Only coots use rivals.

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Re: 3 straight 1st round exits, the rest is spot on...The PJ


Feb 20, 2018, 3:46 PM

Lol, 247 started in 2010 (so they're backdating information), and was launched by the founders of Rivals.

So I guess recruiting is all coot.

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Re: 3 straight 1st round exits, the rest is spot on...The PJ


Feb 20, 2018, 3:54 PM

Doesn't make you any less wrong when you said OP didn't have any four stars before his last class....

He had several.

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Re: 3 straight 1st round exits, the rest is spot on...The PJ


Feb 20, 2018, 4:01 PM

Depends on the recruiting service you use actually, check the Rivals rankings bud. You know, they were actually around then.

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Re: 3 straight 1st round exits, the rest is spot on...The PJ


Feb 20, 2018, 12:32 PM [ in reply to Re: 3 straight 1st round exits, the rest is spot on...The PJ ]

They both are systems to allow you with lower talent level to compete with the big boys because you can't beat them at their game one on one. It's that they are both systems to make up for lesser talent.

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This is ignorant on so many levels it's not even funny.***


Feb 20, 2018, 9:34 AM [ in reply to Re: 3 straight 1st round exits, the rest is spot on...The PJ ]



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Re: Oliver also left on his own accord


Feb 20, 2018, 12:14 PM [ in reply to Oliver also left on his own accord ]

Why are you assuming Brownell will stay if he has a better job offer?

He has had a good season this year.

Not sure if he can sustain it and there are teams in the midWest that might be looking for a coach and Brownell might be a target.

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Re: Serious debate on CBB


Feb 19, 2018, 2:09 PM [ in reply to Re: Serious debate on CBB ]

Purnell was given facilities that moved us to mid tier. Around the time he left other schools were upgrading theirs and we dropped back down again.

So no the comparison is not the same. Nice try though Skeeter3 nice to see you posting on the board again /s

loser

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March 4th 2016- "Lee won't be here 4 years from today" - Viztiz


Re: Serious debate on CBB


Feb 19, 2018, 3:43 PM

Lol

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Re: Serious debate on CBB


Feb 19, 2018, 3:52 PM

Quality retort. Sorry that the facts of the matter were too much for you to overcome.

Another fact you are never here when we win.


Message was edited by: Clemalum07®


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I kinda like College Basket Ball***


Feb 19, 2018, 10:11 AM



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Re: I kinda like College Basket Ball***


Feb 19, 2018, 2:09 PM

Good. I bet there might be a basketball bored on here somewhere.

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One issue I have with CBB


Feb 19, 2018, 10:14 AM

He rarely, if ever, gets in the refs face over calls. I'm not suggesting he get T-eed up all the time but he could show some bawls and raise a ruckus every now and then, especially when Clemson get cheap BS calls but Duke gets away with it.

For sure he should have been all over the no call on Mitchell at FSU.

Ratface and Roy own those refs, cuss at them and get the calls.

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https://as1.ftcdn.net/v2/jpg/00/81/16/28/1000_F_81162810_8TlZDomtVuVGlyqWL2I4HA7Wlqw7cr5a.jpg


You must've missed his reaction yesterday to a few calls.


Feb 19, 2018, 12:00 PM

One time he put his arms out and yelled, "that's effing ridiculous." Just because he doesn't yell until he gets red in the face and throw chairs across the court doesn't mean he doesn't debate calls.

He routinely reacts to bad calls.

The hard hit on Mitchell at FSU was a good no call in my opinion. It seemed to be the result of the FSU player going after the ball and not an intentionally dirty play. The refs reviewed it and that's all you can ask for.

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"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


I usually agree with Judge, but that was an obvious missed


Feb 19, 2018, 10:57 PM

call when Mitchell was elbowed in the head! I don't think it was intentional or flagrant, but it was an obvious foul. The no call at the very end, when Thomas was whacked across the arms and lost the ball, when he tried to go up for a last second shot under the basket, was a terrible no call, also! If those two calls had been made, as they should have, we could have very well won that game!

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Addressing #4


Feb 19, 2018, 10:36 AM

I don't see any reason why we shouldn't get to the tournament at least every other year. We may not have much basketball tradition, but there's no reason for us to be in the bottom third of the ACC consistently.

The top 3-4 spots are tough to get. Duke, UNC, UVA, Louisville (who will likely drop off) are better than us year in and year out. We should be battling with FSU, NC State, Cuse, Miami, VT, and ND for spots 5-11. There is no excuse for us to not be at least middle of that pack of teams most years. Top 8 in the ACC gets you in the tournament pretty much every year.

That's my opinion. You will have some down years, but top 45-50 in the country doesn't really seem like that much to ask.

I will support Brownell for as long as he's here. I thought he should've been let go after last year, but the success this year shows why I'm not the AD. Idk who we can get at this point, but if we'd be willing to put up the money, why couldn't we get a big name up-and-comer?

The problem in my mind is we seem to have the "why would he come here" mindset, while we should be taking the Dabo mindset of "why not us"?

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Clemson needs to decide what it wants from basketball.


Feb 19, 2018, 12:11 PM

In one breath, Clemson fans act like they don't care much about basketball. They don't show up to games with any regularity, if at all, and like to brag about being a football school. They complain about resources being used to upgrade our basketball facilities and about what we pay our head coach.

The next breath, Clemson fans get mad because we lose to Duke, arguably the best college basketball program over the past 30 years, who is a top 10 team this year. We were competitive against them yesterday and put ourselves in position to win late, without two key starters and with our top two scorers both having poor performances on the same day. And this is supposed to be an indication that our coach is a moron and should be fired.

WHICH IS IT? BECAUSE WE CAN'T HAVE BOTH.

Do we want to have a successful basketball program, or do we not?

The idea that Brownell was supposed to somehow magically convince good basketball players to come to Clemson, given our poor tradition, lack of administrative support, and poor facilities for the first six years of his tenure, is ridiculous. I still contend that his showed his coaching prowess in all but one of those years, as he had us competitive in virtually every game despite having a significantly less talented team.

Please stop with the "he inherited a great team from Purnell." Recruiting had taken a huge dip the last couple of recruiting cycles with OP. He knew that, and it probably played a role in his decision to leave for DePaul. Plus, as fun as Purnell's teams were to watch, they couldn't do squat in the NCAA Tournament and I think it was correct to go with a coach with a different philosophy. Although it has taken a few years, the program is now on good footing - much more so than it was with Purnell.

Now that we have new facilities, which he did not get until year 7, recruiting is on the upswing. He finally has good support from the AD, including finally having a support staff person to help with recruiting (the football staff has had the same position for years).

Of course the previous 7 years still matter, but what we are seeing now is a more accurate representation of what Brownell can do when given solid support. My hope is that he can sustain it, and I believe he can - or at least close to it.

We should strive to make the NCAA Tournament every year. There is no reason we shouldn't expect to, given the current situation at Clemson.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: Clemson needs to decide what it wants from basketball.


Feb 19, 2018, 12:31 PM

Very intelligent response. Some of us need perspective on our basketball program. The opportunity to be a regular contender in this program may be approaching as Petino is the first of the HOF coaches to leave but others are getting older. That being said, if you asked the alumni of every ACC school north of us if they were a FB or BB school, they would answer BB. That is their focus while it is not here. It is not even second in line here. And the schools that do both (FB and BB) very well are few and far between.

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Re: Clemson needs to decide what it wants from basketball.


Feb 19, 2018, 12:33 PM

Oops! Sorry I'm sure VT fans consider FB first.

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Re: Clemson needs to decide what it wants from basketball.


Feb 19, 2018, 10:59 PM [ in reply to Clemson needs to decide what it wants from basketball. ]

All you negative ?? posters who are under sixty years old need to understand just how inconsistent Tiger BB has been since Tates Locke. Coach Brownell is not perfect by any means, but he is highly respected by his peers for what he inherited and now what is beginning to establish. I wholeheartedly agree with Judge Keller’s assessment of fans and their cockeyed view of the program.

My hope is that Brownell continues building depth and a quality program as Coach K, Williams and other ACC stalwarts retire. If somebody likes his accomplishments fans might see him get hired elsewhere. Then the key question becomes, what do we want and therefore anticipate in a Coach?

Therein be careful what you ask for and enjoy what outcomes which lie ahead. Trust me when I say matters could much worse!!

Go Tigers!

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He will get a pass on losing in the 1st round because the OP


Feb 19, 2018, 12:11 PM

apologists taught us that at least we were in the Dance to begin with...HTH

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Re: He will get a pass on losing in the 1st round because the OP


Feb 19, 2018, 12:33 PM

Im not giving him a pass on anything.... I like the guy. But if were making the calls I would have let him go 2 years ago.

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Re: He will get a pass on losing in the 1st round because the OP


Feb 19, 2018, 1:38 PM [ in reply to He will get a pass on losing in the 1st round because the OP ]

It’s more about the fact that he CONSISTENTLY got us there and had a winning record in the ACC CONSISTENTLY once his program was established.

I’m not exactly sure how someone could possibly defend Brownell and bash OP considering what each on was able to accomplish here.

But this is tigernet....

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Brad hasn't won consistently in the ACC?***


Feb 19, 2018, 1:46 PM



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Re: Brad hasn't won consistently in the ACC?***


Feb 19, 2018, 3:39 PM

He was 6-12 last year in year seven of his tenure. Recruiting is mediocre with classes in the 40-80 range, some even worse....

If you're happy with mediocrity and a tournament visit or two every decade then I guess he's our guy. From all indication that's what we're gonna get.

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Re: Brad hasn't won consistently in the ACC?***


Feb 20, 2018, 6:04 AM

JHop...you despise Brownell...leave it that. Not everyone does. You refuse to accept Clemson's hoops history, clearly a reflection of the support the program received. You give OP props for a dumpster fire recovery, with a one-dimensional PJ approach to basketball. Talk about in-game adjustments...OP never met one he knew! And...back to the dumpster...how did that happen? I refer you to Tiger hoops history. It's not a one-time occurrence.

You want to suggest he had facilities upgrades...yeah...Clemson went from flint to matches to start a fire. Recruits weren't impressed.

You want the Tigers in the Dance with the other 67 partners, yet deride a Top 40 recruiting classes and effective transfers. By my math, Top 40 should translate to Top 64, but my calculator is old. I'll check my abacus instead. .... Yep...got the same answer. Those Chinese were pretty sharp!

I have no doubt your neighbor's grass is greener, just like I'm sure there isn't a coach who wouldn't take the Clemson job if it was open. (Yes, that was sarcasm)

Lastly...do you seriously believe collegiate hoops and the 'feeder' system is clean...legit...above board? Do you...really...do you?

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Re: Brad hasn't won consistently in the ACC?***


Feb 20, 2018, 10:35 AM

I don't despise anybody, I just refuse to live in fantasy land like the coots do in football.

I've posted the stats, you can be hard headed and refuse to accept them if you want.

Our basketball history means nothing because, like I've clearly shown, the last coach we had was able to consistently win in the ACC, and consistently make the NCAA's while improving our recruiting, and that was with the same crap facilities Brownell had.

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Re: Brad hasn't won consistently in the ACC?***


Feb 20, 2018, 11:11 AM

Our recruiting was not good, he didn't have a 4* until his final recruiting class before he bolted. You think our recruiting was good because the gimmick press helps less talented players against more talent. Sure, he found some diamonds in the rough in Booker, Stitt, Rivers, etc., but none of those guys were 4 stars or better.

Consistently win in the ACC is also a stretch, he only won 10 games one time, 9 games 3 times in a watered down ACC.

My real question is, why are you so hung up on this? Did OP hurt your feelings when he left you? It's been a while now, time to let it go lil jhOP.

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Re: Brad hasn't won consistently in the ACC?***


Feb 20, 2018, 12:01 PM

I don't know if you're misinformed or just blatantly lying but according to 247 Purnell's last two classes were ranked 30th and 15th respectively and had FIVE four stars and a five star. So yes, our recruiting was at an all time high.

You can say the ACC was watered down all you want, doesn't make it true. Purnell also played 2 less ACC games a year, but still went 10-6, 9-7, 9-7 his last 3 seasons. He also won 19 or more games 5 times in 7 years, Brownell has done it 3 times in 8, once with Purnell's players.

I'm not hung up on anything. I didn't start this argument, I'm just responding to the delusion.

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Re: Brad hasn't won consistently in the ACC?***


Feb 20, 2018, 12:11 PM

My apologies, I was using Rivals. Because there is no way in hell that 5'8" Andre Young and Catalin Baicu were 4 star recruits. I'm sorry, but no.

What happened to all the talent? As another poster pointed out, Purnell ###### us before the 2010 signing class, he missed on the "major recruits" in our "highest classes ever," and left us in the middle of the night (how have you not figured that part out yet?).

You can say the ACC wasn't watered down all you want to, that doesn't make it true. One season only 4 ACC teams made the Tourney, another year the Tar Holes went to the NIT. There is nothing to show the ACC wasn't watered down then, or at the very least, worse than it has been under Brownell's tenure.

You keep saying you're responding to the delusion, but you're the one with the grand delusion that OP was some kind of gift from God to Clemson basketball and that just isn't the case.

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Re: Brad hasn't won consistently in the ACC?***


Feb 20, 2018, 12:17 PM

So that's how it works? You throw out a statement about the state of the ACC a decade ago and the burden of proof is on me?

You've already proven you don't check your facts....

And I never said Purnell was a "gift from God" or even a great coach, just that he reached heights with our program that Brownell doesn't seem to be capable of getting us to.

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Re: Brad hasn't won consistently in the ACC?***


Feb 20, 2018, 12:19 PM

Ok, you've proven you cannot read.

I mentioned that one of our tourney years only 4 ACC teams made the tourney. Yes, 4, that's how bad a year it was in the ACC. Another year we made the tourney, the Tar Holes went to the NIT.

How can you not understand that?

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OP didn't do as well in ACC play as Brownell.


Feb 20, 2018, 2:55 PM [ in reply to Re: Brad hasn't won consistently in the ACC?*** ]

Brownell's average ACC wins per year, and his ACC winning percentage, is better than Purnell's.

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"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Re: He will get a pass on losing in the 1st round because the OP


Feb 20, 2018, 11:06 AM [ in reply to Re: He will get a pass on losing in the 1st round because the OP ]

You left off consistently losing in tournament play (ACC and NCAA) because the ACC was down and we scheduled incredible cupcakes OOC.

What did OP accomplish here? He didn't win a championship, he didn't win a tourney game, so his accomplishments and Brownell's are pretty much even except for Tourney appearances, but hey, at least one of them won some form of a game when they got there.

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Re: He will get a pass on losing in the 1st round because the OP


Feb 20, 2018, 12:04 PM

Oh ok so now it's win championships or bust...lol.

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Re: He will get a pass on losing in the 1st round because the OP


Feb 20, 2018, 12:13 PM

If that's all you took out of the post then you're simply a moron that cannot read.

I was simply pointing out the "accomplishments" of each, which are virtually the same, except with regards to tourney appearances which means little to me when we are ceremoniously bounced in the first round to inferior teams.

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Re: Serious debate on CBB


Feb 19, 2018, 12:41 PM

If we go out in the first weekend I will be upset.

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Re: Serious debate on CBB


Feb 20, 2018, 6:17 AM

There can't be a serious debate on TNet . Torpedoes .... torpedoes in the water .

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DB23


Re: Serious debate on CBB


Feb 20, 2018, 10:04 AM

I am certainly a Brownell supporter, but we need sustained success in the next few years.

I keep hearing idiots say that Purnell left the program in a great position for success, because he left Brownell an NCAA tourney team. What you don't realize is that the heart and sole of that team were seniors and we didn't have much after that.

Brownell's second year this was our roster.

Sr: Andre Young, Tanner Smith, and Catilin Baciu, and Narcisse. Andre Young and Tanner Smith were average ACC players and Baciu and Narcisse were trash.

Jr: Devin Booker, Milton Jennings, (Noel Johnson transferred and never succeeded in college) Milton Jennings and Devin Booker were both terrible

Soph: NOBODY

Freshman: TJ Sapp, Devin Coleman, Rod Hall, KJ McDaniels, and Bernard Sullivan. Bernard, TJ, and Devin Coleman were trash. Rod Hall was a slightly below average ACC player, and KJ was a star, but not his freshman year.

Our squad is WAY better this year.

And think about the next year.

His seniors were Milton Jennings and Devin Booker and no juniors. How could you possibly think Purnell left Brownell a full cupboard?

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Re: Serious debate on CBB


Feb 20, 2018, 10:41 AM

He didn't just leave "a tournament team"....he left a program on the rise that had consistently been winning in conference and nationally. Little John was considered one of the toughest places to play in the country. Recruiting was at an all time high....

Blaming Purnell for the fact that Brownell couldn't sustain that is coot logic at its worst.

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Re: Serious debate on CBB


Feb 20, 2018, 11:14 AM

Recruiting was at an all time high? That is absolutely laughable. Are u talking about the class that consisted of a high 4* Devin booker and an all American Milton Jennings? Yeah, they were both great players. The only reason Devin was a 4* was because of his brother and the only reason Milton was an AA was because he played against children.

No, Purnell left in the middle of the night right before basketball signing day so we didn’t sign anyone that class. So on year 3, brownells upperclassmen consisted of Milton Jennings, Devin booker, and baciu. Wow. What a great group of seniors and juniors. Compare that to what we have now. Purnell left our program in shambles.

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Hey, don't confuse jhOP with facts!


Feb 20, 2018, 11:17 AM

He loved Purnell so much he seems to think we got rid of him, not the fact that he knew his team would regress in a couple of years so he wanted to go "rebuild" another team, which ended in him pretty much stealing money from DePaul.

Fun fact, OP didn't have a 4 star prior to the class you mentioned, but our recruiting was amazing during his tenure!

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Re: Hey, don't confuse jhOP with facts!


Feb 20, 2018, 12:11 PM

Wrong again. David Potter, KC Rivers, and James Mays were all four stars signed by Purnell. Please give me more of your "facts".

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Wrong again:


Feb 20, 2018, 12:15 PM

https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2005/kc-rivers-13173

https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2006/david-potter-77555

https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/2004/james-mays-45797

But please, continue blowing OP 10 years after he left the program that was, by you're thinking, "on the rise and becoming a top ACC team year in and out."

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Re: Wrong again:


Feb 20, 2018, 12:23 PM

247 had all of those players four stars. Sorry....

You don't get to just use the one site that agrees with you.

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Re: Wrong again:


Feb 20, 2018, 12:30 PM

I'm using a site that disproves your claim, that's how this works.

Sorry...

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Re: Serious debate on CBB


Feb 20, 2018, 12:08 PM [ in reply to Re: Serious debate on CBB ]

Um....it's not Purnell's fault Brownell couldn't keep the class intact or that those players didn't live up to expectations.

I mean seriously? You're blaming PURNELL because Brownell couldn't develop those highly rated guys?

Here is our last two classes on 247. FIVE 4 stars and a 5 star....please show me a time in Clemson history where our recruiting was better.....

https://247sports.com/college/clemson/Season/2009-Basketball/Commits

https://247sports.com/college/clemson/Season/2008-Basketball/Commits

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Re: Serious debate on CBB


Feb 20, 2018, 12:16 PM

That's cute, now pull up the Rivals rankings for those same classes. You know, since that doesn't back up your argument.

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Re: Serious debate on CBB


Feb 20, 2018, 12:22 PM

You're the one that furiously claimed Purnell never signed a 4 star until his last class....

That's just simply not true.

I'll wait for you to show me a time in Clemson history that we were recruiting better than toward the end of Purnell's tenure.

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Re: Serious debate on CBB


Feb 20, 2018, 12:27 PM

That's convenient, considering that we don't have recruiting class rankings pre 2002 so all you have is the Purnell era.

Per Rivals Brownell has signed four 4* players, Purnell only signed 2 and one 5*.

Tell the truth, did you have a crush on Purnell or something? Because you're obsession with him is kind of weird.

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Re: Serious debate on CBB


Feb 20, 2018, 1:14 PM

You can’t use stars as your only measuring stick. Rivals has changed that over time and there are more 4 stars now. James Mays was 103 nationally, but a 3 Star. Today there are kids in the 130s who are 4 stars. You can go by Top 150 players, because that is a consistent barometer of Rivals, OP has brought in more talent.

OP: 11 top 150 - Hamilton, Mays, Rivers, Potter, Bobo, Young, Milton, Devin, Hill, Johnson, and then Marcus Thornton who he had signed for 2010 (GA Mr. Basketball)

Brownell: 8 top 150 - Sullivan, Blossomgame, Grantham, DeVoe, Hudson, Spencer, Simms, and Newman in our current class.

In OP’s last 3 classes, 7 of his last 9 signees were top 150 guys. He had 2 scholarships for 2010 where he signed Thornton and planned to roll the over to 2011.

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Re: Serious debate on CBB


Feb 20, 2018, 1:45 PM

Wow. Since Oliver Purnell had recruiting classes that were so much better than brownells, I wonder why the product on the court was so similar?

Take a look at how all of these highly rated recruits performed. Devin booker, bono, David potter, Milton jennings, Donte hill, and noel Johnson all sucked. Even the 2 transfers did nothing once hey got out of Clemson.

And you even add Thornton to the list that decommitted right after Purnell left right before signing day.

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Re: Serious debate on CBB


Feb 20, 2018, 3:44 PM

Well Devin Booker and Milton Jennings spent the majority of their college careers under Brownell so.....

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Re: Serious debate on CBB


Feb 20, 2018, 4:43 PM

And turned into serviceable players, good for Brownell to develop them because their first years were rough.

Nice of OP to recruit some guards though, the driving force behind college basketball.

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Re: Serious debate on CBB


Feb 20, 2018, 2:02 PM [ in reply to Re: Serious debate on CBB ]

So now you're arguing that recruiting rankings today are different than they were in years past. That's also true in football, so should we go back to see the top x players that Bowden signed?

That does bring the question, with all the talent how did OP never win a tourney game?

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Re: Serious debate on CBB


Feb 20, 2018, 3:12 PM

No one cares about Bowden. All I pointed out is the “flaw” of simply counting by stars. When there are a lot more 4 Star players today then before so you have to account for that - which is why I did Rivals 150 players. Potter, Mays, and Rivers were all in top 120 and this would be a 4 Star signee - with the same scale you are using for Brownell.

OP did not win a tournament game, but that is not the end all be all. He was ranked in 4 of his 7 seasons - Brownell has been in 1 of 7. OP beat Butler the year they played for the National Championship. OP ran Maryland, UNC, and Duke out of the gym in his final 2 years here. We hosted gameday and were relevant to the college basketball world while he was here. Currently under Brownell, we have had one good year and another that we don’t know how it ends with 5 years in between.

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Re: Serious debate on CBB


Feb 20, 2018, 3:55 PM

That's all well and good, FWIW I loved the way Rivers played the game. Potter was definitely not a top 120 player but did well in his final year. Mays was an athlete, no two ways about that.

OP finished ranked in 2 of 7 seasons, one in which we were 13th and fizzled out to 24th. Good for him beating Butler the year they played for the championship, that means nothing.

The year we beat Duke big at home was great, but the Maryland team that year finished 18-12 in the regular season and 7-9 in the ACC. We finished 5th in the ACC and lost the first game of the ACC Tourney to last place GT.

The next year we did run UNC out of the building, but so did many other teams on their way to a 16-15 regular season (5-11 in ACC play). That year we lost to the second to last ACC team in the first round of the ACC Tourney. Oh yeah, we did host Gameday against Duke that year, I was there and the crowd was raucous and rowdy, and we lost 47-60.

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Re: Serious debate on CBB


Feb 20, 2018, 4:11 PM

I don’t get what you are trying to do.

You were simply saying Brownell has recruited better because of all these 4 stars. JHop said OP had more. You said Rivals is better than 247, so I simply pointed out that if you go by Rivals 150 since that is more consistent then stars, OP is better.

OP did a lot of great things for Clemson. There is no need to disparage all of it. His accomplishments outweigh Brownell’s especially when you factor in inheritance. I also left out OP took us to the ACCCG for basketball, but he lost so I’m sure you will say it also means nothing.

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Re: Serious debate on CBB


Feb 20, 2018, 4:41 PM

I don't recall saying Brownell has recruited better, just that OP was not this great recruiter that brought in tons of talent as jhOP said. I also didn't state Rivals was better, just that it had a differing view of players, and was also an actual website pre-2010 which is when OP was here.

jhOP was the one citing 247 because that means he can claim all these 4 stars that OP brought in, I was simply citing a different point of view on the subject matter.

I never stated that OP didn't do great things for basketball, just that he wasn't some great coach we had as some would have you think. For every great thing he did, there was a negative.

Go to ACC Champ Game - lose in first round. Beat the blue bloods, lose in both first rounds, etc.

As others have posted, he left Brad with very little in all actuality. Leaving in the middle of the night meant Brad had weeks to scramble together and get any recruit for the 2010 class, others transferred out because we weren't running the press anymore, etc.

With regards to the ACC Champ game, are you saying you're proud of being second place or what? I mean it was really cool and all and exciting to watch us play on ACC Tourney Sunday but it was a huge let down to lose, as OP did in many big games.

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Your post requires way too much thought


Feb 20, 2018, 3:00 PM [ in reply to Re: Serious debate on CBB ]

from the average poster here.

All they do is consistently regurgitate the tired line "Brownell inherited a program that had gone to several NCAA Tournaments in a row."

They have trouble looking a step or two farther, which, as you said, included a relatively poor collection of talent beyond the 2010-2011 senior class. It also fails to recognize some of the behind the scenes issues in our basketball program, which included but was not limited to subpar administrative support.

Brownell has weathered those storms and improved a lot of aspects of our basketball program. Most fans have no idea what that has included. Brad almost single-handedly raised the funds from donors to allow us to get the new facilities - in his seventh year on the job.

I don't know why some people are so insistent on holding Brad's first few years here against him. Why not focus on where we are NOW? Now, we have a very good team playing for NCAA Tournament seeding, not simply trying to get in. We have a nice mix of veterans and younger players. Momentum is good. Let's focus on that, and not whether he did what some people wanted him to do in the few years after OP deserted us.

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"All those 'Fire Brownell' guys can kiss it." -Joseph Girard III

"Everybody needs to know that Coach Brownell is arguably the best coach to come through Clemson." -PJ Hall


Reasonable expectation, IMO


Feb 20, 2018, 2:31 PM

We are (probably) never going to be Duke or Kentucky in basketball. We had a path to that level in football that was paved by Howard and Ford, but Clemson basketball for longer than I've been alive has been almost an afterthought, so that just doesn't exist for the basketball program as of now. Maybe it can in fifty years, but not now.

So it's not reasonable to expect annual trips to the dance, competing for ACC championships regular season or tournament, etc. Some years we're going to be too young. Sometimes we're going to lose guys to injury or transfer or whatever...maybe one day we'll even lose a player to the NBA early.

College sports run on a four year cycle for obvious reasons. Year 1-2 we should just be looking for improvement. Years three and four we should be looking to compete and make the dance, and maybe once every so often we will have a complete team capable of making a run to the elite eight or further. The difficult part is knowing which part of the cycle we are currently in so we don't overreact.

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Re: Serious debate on CBB


Feb 20, 2018, 4:41 PM

Foolish post


Just foolish


Sigh



Sad

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