Tiger Board Logo

Donor's Den General Leaderboards TNET coins™ POTD Hall of Fame Map FAQ
GIVE AN AWARD
Use your TNET coins™ to grant this post a special award!

W
50
Big Brain
90
Love it!
100
Cheers
100
Helpful
100
Made Me Smile
100
Great Idea!
150
Mind Blown
150
Caring
200
Flammable
200
Hear ye, hear ye
200
Bravo
250
Nom Nom Nom
250
Take My Coins
500
Ooo, Shiny!
700
Treasured Post!
1000

YOUR BALANCE
In the 5 years preceding last season, 8 SEC teams signed
storage This topic has been archived - replies are not allowed.
Archives - Tiger Boards Archive
add New Topic
Replies: 27
| visibility 1

In the 5 years preceding last season, 8 SEC teams signed


Jun 9, 2012, 2:45 PM

one and two more entire signing classes than Clemson.

From 2006 through 2010, the recruiting classes that made up the bulk of the last couple of teams, Clemson signed 104 players. During that time the following SEC teams signed more players than Clemson by the margin listed:

Ole Miss 41
Auburn 40
Miss. State 34
Arkansas 30
Kentucky 30
Alabama 29
LSU 27
South Carolina 25

That is an entire class of recruits for each team. Some teams signed almost 2 entire classes more.

When you recruit at a high level, you can cut the poorest performers while bringing in superior replacements. It compensates for poor talent evaluation, lack of character, injury, poor work ethic, etc.

Is Clemson really as talented as people say we are relative to other teams? Have our coaches done a pretty good job in talent evaluation?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/andy_staples/01/24/oversigning-data/index.html

2024 orange level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

WOW! arent' there measures in place now to stop that kind


Jun 9, 2012, 2:55 PM

of unethical stuff from going on?

badge-donor-10yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Mississippi Tiger --------- Clemson University - 8 Time National Football Champions - 1900, 1906, 1948, 1950, 1981, 1983, 2016, 2018


Re: WOW! arent' there measures in place now to stop that kind


Jun 9, 2012, 3:00 PM

That is not apples for apples,A few years ago we only signed 12 players.That can not be blamed on the SEC. All teams and conferences have to go by the same rule of only providing 85 scholarship players on a team at one time.How you get there is up to each team.There is no NCAA rule.The SEC just implemented a conference rule that they can not end up with more than 25 players per year. The ACC has no such rule that I know of so we could sign players just like them .

military_donation.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

sure. I'm not talking about us. When we oversign its because


Jun 9, 2012, 3:07 PM

there is room available to count back. Which is the great thing about players coming in early. i don't think we've ever even greyshirted a player.

i'm talking about auburn and Alabama consistently over-signing and cutting players. i know its by the written rules but it is also considered unethical by most coaches. Outside the SEC obviously.

The New SEC 25 player rule was what i was thinking of.

badge-donor-10yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Mississippi Tiger --------- Clemson University - 8 Time National Football Champions - 1900, 1906, 1948, 1950, 1981, 1983, 2016, 2018


Re: sure. I'm not talking about us. When we oversign its because


Jun 9, 2012, 3:15 PM

number of player signed is made out to be a much bigger deal than it really is because each team can only enroll 25 players

in recruiting there are essentially 3 levels - commitments, players who sign, and player who enroll

All schools are held to the same number of enroll-es by the NCAA

all those extra signings listed in the OP just means those teams signed a lot of player who never enrolled in classes

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: Or who were allowed to count toward a previous or future


Jun 9, 2012, 3:18 PM

class to replace someone who didn't cut it.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


Re: sure. I'm not talking about us. When we oversign its because


Jun 9, 2012, 3:20 PM [ in reply to Re: sure. I'm not talking about us. When we oversign its because ]

well some never enroll because of academics sure. but some grey shirt which is fine. some enroll early and count toward an unfilled slot the year before which is fine. but if you consistently over sign you are going to have to cut players to get under 85. which is also going by the letter since a scholarship is only for 1 year but its just unethical in most cases. which is why most school don't have to have new rules in order to not do it.

badge-donor-10yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Mississippi Tiger --------- Clemson University - 8 Time National Football Champions - 1900, 1906, 1948, 1950, 1981, 1983, 2016, 2018


Re: sure. I'm not talking about us. When we oversign its because


Jun 9, 2012, 3:28 PM

well some never enroll because of academics sure. but some grey shirt which is fine. some enroll early and count toward an unfilled slot the year before which is fine. but if you consistently over sign you are going to have to cut players to get under 85. which is also going by the letter since a scholarship is only for 1 year but its just unethical in most cases. which is why most school don't have to have new rules in order to not do it.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


What your saying here isn't the way it works, your stating it as if a signed player is sure to enroll and therefore a player must be cut in order to do so, that is just incorrect

Example:

Team A signs 25 player
Team B signs 100 player

how many true freshman arrive on campus next year?

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: sure. I'm not talking about us. When we oversign its because


Jun 9, 2012, 3:36 PM

yeah i think that's what I'm saying although its more with cutting a soph or junior who hasn't quite panned out rather than the incoming frosh being dropped at the last minute. but either way. it's still not right in most cases.

badge-donor-10yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Mississippi Tiger --------- Clemson University - 8 Time National Football Champions - 1900, 1906, 1948, 1950, 1981, 1983, 2016, 2018


Re: sure. I'm not talking about us. When we oversign its because


Jun 9, 2012, 3:24 PM [ in reply to Re: sure. I'm not talking about us. When we oversign its because ]

I'm not sure you understand the signing rules. The sec limits new scholarship enrollees to 25 per year. The NCAA is a program total of 85 scholarship at any given time. Do the math. If you count redshirts (and you should) the SEC permits signing/enrolling 125 scholarship athletes in a 5 year period despite a program max of 85 set by the NCAA. You are very naive if you believe that 40 players are failing to make the grades and enroll every 5 years. These players are having their scholarships yanked and sent packing. South Carolina has actually yanked scholarships from more students in their 2009 class (kids that were recruited, made the grade, and partcipated in the program) than Clemson signed that year.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Jstone D329 - “ It’s ok to want a coaching change”
Brownell @Clemson: 8 seasons ranked 50th or worse by Sports Reference’s SRS
1-29: Brad Brownell road record against ranked ACC opponents
142, 161, 294, 307, 293, 166, 225, 180, 260, 164, 141, 72, 68 - assist rankings amongst all D1 programs during Brownell's tenure


Re: Look at the numbers. ACC schools haven't needed a rule


Jun 9, 2012, 3:17 PM [ in reply to Re: WOW! arent' there measures in place now to stop that kind ]

(at least most of them haven't anyway) to force them to be relatively ethical. 2/3+ of the ACC is pretty much beyond question here, whereas 2/3+ of the SEC is pretty obviously unconcerned with ethics. Of course this is nothing new - it has been true since the days before NCAA-wide scholarship limits and qualification standards, when the ACC had the only standards in D1A. I can't recall - was it the scholarship limits or qualification standards that were too much for USC to handle?

Anyway, this seems to explain a lot RE: UGA, Penn State, and Clemson. I'm impressed with Stanford and Wisconsin's success, given their evident commitment to not oversigning.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


Re: WOW! arent' there measures in place now to stop that kind


Jun 9, 2012, 3:29 PM [ in reply to Re: WOW! arent' there measures in place now to stop that kind ]

While it is not formalized, ACC schools have a long tradition of honoring football scholarships for the full four years. It was one of the primary reasons Geogia Tech left the SEC.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Jstone D329 - “ It’s ok to want a coaching change”
Brownell @Clemson: 8 seasons ranked 50th or worse by Sports Reference’s SRS
1-29: Brad Brownell road record against ranked ACC opponents
142, 161, 294, 307, 293, 166, 225, 180, 260, 164, 141, 72, 68 - assist rankings amongst all D1 programs during Brownell's tenure


Re: WOW! arent' there measures in place now to stop that kind


Jun 9, 2012, 3:42 PM [ in reply to Re: WOW! arent' there measures in place now to stop that kind ]

Yeah all colleges have the same scollies available to them unless you have been put on probation and lost some. But you can have all the players on the team you can accomodate. Look what Oklahoma and Nebraska use to do! The other conferences do the same as the SEC because most of those conferences, Big 10 Pac 12 and Big 12 can afford it. The ACC can't.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: WOW! arent' there measures in place now to stop that kind


Jun 9, 2012, 3:54 PM

The big 10 does not do this. They are the most restrictive. Big 10 can only SIGN the actual number of openings they will have. No over signing and cutting later. If a signee doesn't make it to campus, then tough crap. You're a man down for a year.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Jstone D329 - “ It’s ok to want a coaching change”
Brownell @Clemson: 8 seasons ranked 50th or worse by Sports Reference’s SRS
1-29: Brad Brownell road record against ranked ACC opponents
142, 161, 294, 307, 293, 166, 225, 180, 260, 164, 141, 72, 68 - assist rankings amongst all D1 programs during Brownell's tenure


Re: WOW! arent' there measures in place now to stop that kind


Jun 9, 2012, 4:01 PM

The big 10 does not do this. They are the most restrictive. Big 10 can only SIGN the actual number of openings they will have. No over signing and cutting later. If a signee doesn't make it to campus, then tough crap. You're a man down for a year.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

it might sound noble, but no team operates like that

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: WOW! arent' there measures in place now to stop that kind


Jun 9, 2012, 5:40 PM

Actually this is exactly what they do. It doesn't preclude grey shirting, but it does prevent the school from signing as many people as possible then sorting them out later. If a big 10 school wants to cut a scholarship player to free up room, they have to do it before national signing day. They have to declare they're availability prior to NSd to the conference. They cannot sign more than this number. SEC teams do not have to consider how many over the 85 limit they are. They can have 85 players returning, sign 25 new players on NSD, then use spring practices as open tryouts and cut as many people as necessary. there is plenty of information available about this. Check oversigning.com or any of the dozens of articles written on the subject after last year.

The argument that everyone is doing really doesn't apply to the sec and oversigning, Their behavior is egregious and the 25 limit was a bs publicity stunt attempting to deflect negative criticism on the subject. It effectively authorizes oversigning by 40 players every 5 years and coaches like Saban and Spurrier argue that it isn't enough.

The big 10 is also going to 4 year scholarships starting this year - further undermining your assertion that no teams operate like that.


Message was edited by: viztiz®


2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Jstone D329 - “ It’s ok to want a coaching change”
Brownell @Clemson: 8 seasons ranked 50th or worse by Sports Reference’s SRS
1-29: Brad Brownell road record against ranked ACC opponents
142, 161, 294, 307, 293, 166, 225, 180, 260, 164, 141, 72, 68 - assist rankings amongst all D1 programs during Brownell's tenure


Re: WOW! arent' there measures in place now to stop that kind


Jun 9, 2012, 6:51 PM

viztiz, most of what you say doesn't even make since. its like your just rambling on with a bunch of number that don't even jive with each other

and most of what you trying to tag the sec with are in fact NCAA policies

if what you said in your last post was true the we would see big 10 schools with rosters vastly short of the 85 limit and sec schools cutting upward of 10-20 players every year, neither which happens

you said...

"Their behavior is egregious and the 25 limit was a bs publicity stunt attempting to deflect negative criticism on the subject. It effectively authorizes oversigning by 40 players every 5 years and coaches like Saban and Spurrier argue that it isn't enough."

The frickin NCAA allows all teams to enroll 25 players a year how is that any different than what you just stated?



"The big 10 is also going to 4 year scholarships starting this year - further undermining your assertion that no teams operate like that." - this absolutely does nothing to undermined my point. the vast majority of college football players with stay in school for 4 years and remain on scholly, however, there will still be attrition in those programs which will be made up for by signing and enrolling more players

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: WOW! arent' there measures in place now to stop that kind


Jun 9, 2012, 8:06 PM

I'm not sure what is so confusing for you. If you don't believe me just do some homework. The Big10 has always adhered by the 85 rule. Rendered moot by the fact that they have begun, this year, making football scholarship for four years. These are facts. Look them up. I even gave you a reference. Big 10 schools do consistently have less than 85 scholarship players, except when they round up by offering walk ons.

As far as my numbers I'm not sure how to be more clear. Perhaps you think we should ignore red shirting. NCAA athletes have 5 years to play 4. Every signee has a potential of being a part of the team for 5 years. In a 5 year period an sec school can sign 125 players by conference rules. Since they almost all do sign the maximum every year (and they still sign more than the league allowed 25 assuming they won't all qualify - so they shoot to bring 25 on campus every year) over a 5 year period they can potentially have run off 40 players.

In 2009, South Carolina signed 29 players. These would be redshirt juniors or true seniors for 2012. There are 10 of these players left on their roster - including Andrew Clifford who I'm pretty sure is being run off too. So what, 3 went pro early? So, Sir Steve had the privilege of running off 16 players and essentially redrafting their position. If you refuse to believe that other schools don't do this there is nothing else I can say - but you are wrong. Clemson signed 12 players in 2009. 10 of those are still with the team. That's an 80% retention rate versus a 34% retention rate.

2024 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Jstone D329 - “ It’s ok to want a coaching change”
Brownell @Clemson: 8 seasons ranked 50th or worse by Sports Reference’s SRS
1-29: Brad Brownell road record against ranked ACC opponents
142, 161, 294, 307, 293, 166, 225, 180, 260, 164, 141, 72, 68 - assist rankings amongst all D1 programs during Brownell's tenure


Re That is the way it should be.***


Jun 9, 2012, 9:23 PM [ in reply to Re: WOW! arent' there measures in place now to stop that kind ]



flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: Re That is the way it should be.***


Jun 9, 2012, 9:34 PM

mistake with a player than you should have to live with it. The school should be penalized when a player flunks out or leaves the program. Tougher rules are needed.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


you say that as if all player go 110% for four year once they go on scholly, but the truth is all college athlete are not created equal

some will go 110% - they should have there scholly honored
some will slack off
some will realize that college is more fun then working out all the time

if a kid gets on campus and has a change of heart or reevaluates his priorities then the coaches shouldn't have to live with that player for four years

i understand some fans feel its a noble thing to do but it 's not a good for anyone involved, not even the student athlete

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re:Coaches will have to pay more attention to a kid's


Jun 9, 2012, 10:53 PM

character. It will cut out the riff raff.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: WOW! arent' there measures in place now to stop that kind


Jun 9, 2012, 8:04 PM [ in reply to Re: WOW! arent' there measures in place now to stop that kind ]

NCAA has a 25 limit, but never enforces it

2024 orange level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: WOW! arent' there measures in place now to stop that kind


Jun 9, 2012, 3:01 PM [ in reply to WOW! arent' there measures in place now to stop that kind ]

of course there are but that is the Southeastern Cheaters Conf that is doing it..and if the NCAA just can not look the other way any longer they just give them NOTHING like the dirty c$$ts got

badge-donor-15yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up


Re: WOW! arent' there measures in place now to stop that kind


Jun 9, 2012, 3:26 PM

true, the coots will just oversign by the amount of the reduced schollies imposed by the ncaa, and the sec will add an ammendment about oversigning if you are currently on probation.

military_donation.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re: In the 5 years preceding last season, 8 SEC teams signed


Jun 9, 2012, 3:32 PM

A lot of factors that go into those numbers...South Carolina recruit and sign JUCO players whereas I don't think CU does....so USC has players in their system that will play 2 years as opposed to 4, which means faster turn-over of those players that CU doesn't see...

Also I believe USC will sign and place prospects it signs into prep more often than CU does. This means that you have to look deeper into those recruiting class numbers: more prospects may be listed twice for USC than they are for CU.

Overall, the numbers listed above won't tell the entire story unless you ALSO look at the numbers of players that are leaving those program rosters each season, as well as look at how many of those above numbers actually enroll into the program...

I remember CU fans were all up-in-arms about USC's 2011 recruiting class, and the size of it (32 prospects). They said that this was the size that USC brought in every year. But the 2010 class was only 23 prospects, and by the time fall came around, only 18 of those 23 actually enrolled. So the 32 for the following class represented 25 plus the other 7 that USC was allowed to count back to 2010 (25 per class - 18 = 7).

So really, for BOTH the 2010 and 2011 classes, USC only brought in 50 prospects, or 25 per class.

Just like Clemson does it, but by taking a different route....

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

The SEC has continued the trend that The Bear put in place


Jun 9, 2012, 4:00 PM

He used to sign players he knew would likely never play in order to keep them from going somewhere else. This is the origin of the 85 scholarship rule. by the way they over sign and cut they are effectively doing the same thing on and even more devious level.

badge-donor-10yr.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Mississippi Tiger --------- Clemson University - 8 Time National Football Champions - 1900, 1906, 1948, 1950, 1981, 1983, 2016, 2018


Re: Scholarships should be for four years. If you make a


Jun 9, 2012, 9:12 PM

mistake with a player than you should have to live with it. The school should be penalized when a player flunks out or leaves the program. Tougher rules are needed.

flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Re This crap needs to be stopped.***


Jun 9, 2012, 9:04 PM



flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Replies: 27
| visibility 1
Archives - Tiger Boards Archive
add New Topic