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Replies: 168
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Message removed by Author
Dec 18, 2016, 4:47 PM
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Message removed by Author
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CU Medallion [67693]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 18, 2016, 4:49 PM
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so that would be the guy who hired Dabo as I recall
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CU Guru [1146]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 18, 2016, 4:49 PM
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Funniest post I've read here in a while. Thank you for that.
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All-In [25888]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 18, 2016, 5:06 PM
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Wonder if Jhop likes chicken ?
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Heisman Winner [111385]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 18, 2016, 5:37 PM
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that, and she is a chronic TDer
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CU Guru [1077]
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Is Clemson a football school?***
Dec 18, 2016, 5:10 PM
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Orange Blooded [2557]
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........well.........
Dec 18, 2016, 6:37 PM
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Hall of Famer [24509]
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DAPOTD!!!!!***
Dec 18, 2016, 5:11 PM
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CU Guru [1736]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 18, 2016, 5:11 PM
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You obviously know nothing about basketball.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 18, 2016, 6:13 PM
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I know a lot about basketball actually, and I know that our basketball program will never become a perennial tournament team and fixture in the rankings like it was when Oliver Purnell coached here under Brad Brownell because the style he plays requires the type of players we don't get at Clemson.
I said it six years ago when he was hired and was flamed and I'm still getting flamed for it now six years and ONE tournament appearance later.....
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110%er [6280]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 18, 2016, 6:18 PM
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Well when we go deep this year maybe you will realize. We were not good with OP jusy played easy out of conference schedules. We lost in the tourney.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 18, 2016, 6:40 PM
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And if we don't are you and the other people in this thread going to come back and say I was right?
Doubt it because you're probably the same ones that said I was an idiot over half a decade ago when I said he wasn't the man to replace Purnell....
Brownell inherited a program that was picking up speed and he drove it in the ditch.
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All-TigerNet [14451]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 18, 2016, 7:11 PM
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lmfao. there was about to be multiple transfers from the program had purnell not left. just a small detail i know. that is a fact. you can believe it or not.
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110%er [7718]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 19, 2016, 3:20 PM
[ in reply to Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year ] |
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"Brownell inherited a program that was picking up speed and he drove it in the ditch."
Fiction sure is fun.
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110%er [7831]
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 18, 2016, 6:43 PM
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Except when we were going to the tournament every year less than a decade ago....
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110%er [6321]
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and losing....
Dec 18, 2016, 7:56 PM
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maybe if your idol had kept his pants on he would still be here. Why did purnell do so bad at the next school he coached?
In six yrs Brownell has had 87 losses, Purnell had 77. That is a little over 1 more loss a yr for Brownell. Purnell had 117 wins, Brownell 107 wins. That is also a little over 1 more win a year. I would say they were pretty even at 6 yrs. Yes, purnell went to tourny 3 times in a row, but lost all three games.
When you can figure out a way to bring a big time coach and big time players to Clemson, please let the AD know. Please advise the basketball coaches how easy it is to recruit to a rural town that only has a crowd to watch them when it is a big game and students only show up for big games. I know, I know.,,,you are going to say winning will bring in fans...BUT you have to be able to get the players there for that. Clemson is small with not a lot of things to interest basketball players and does not have a great basketball history. It is one thing to play football and bond with over 80 people and numerous coaches, but basketball has about 12 players and a couple of coaches.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: and losing....
Dec 18, 2016, 8:29 PM
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Purnell did bring in talent and excitement to the program...
So don't tell me it can't be done.
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110%er [7718]
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Re: and losing....
Dec 19, 2016, 3:20 PM
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Maybe you should look at our last few recruiting classes and transfers.
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110%er [7831]
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Re: and losing....
Dec 21, 2016, 4:23 PM
[ in reply to Re: and losing.... ] |
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While OP had some success, I wouldn't call it long term success. You said a decade of success. But if that were the case, we would still probably be having this mythical "long term success" you speak of.
But the facts are:
OP left in the middle of the night.
He had no recruits in the pipeline.
The only pure shooter he ever had, Purnell didn't know how to get him an open shot.
If he was such a great coach...what happened at his next coaching gig? Oh yea......crash and burn
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: and losing....
Dec 21, 2016, 6:03 PM
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OP won 19 games his 3rd year and 20+ each of the next four seasons, including a winning record in the ACC the last three.
Clemson basketball has never had that kind of sustained success....
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CU Guru [1146]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 18, 2016, 6:53 PM
[ in reply to Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year ] |
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It's unbelievable you're trying to make this argument when we just moved to 8-2, big road win, and will be getting votes to be in the Top 25 tomorrow.
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Legend [19567]
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And I think we're averaging 80+ PPG
Dec 18, 2016, 6:56 PM
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Hey, at least he says this after a win. The other ones are invisible after wins
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 18, 2016, 6:57 PM
[ in reply to Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year ] |
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You're right it probably was bad timing but that doesn't make it any less true.
People acting like this program has turned the corner or something because we beat Alabama is cootish....
Felt like I was on FGF after their big win over Missouri so I figured I'd inject a little reality.
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CU Guru [1146]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 18, 2016, 7:08 PM
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Your argument is invalid, regardless of timing.
You act like Purnell is a benchmark, but he only took us to 3 NCAA Tournaments and played exactly 3 games in them. In fact, his system is the very definition of a ceiling. The press/athletic style only took us so far. Good teams that didn't turn it over and played solid on-man defense ate us alive. Our half-court offense was worse than Larry Shyatt's.
You asked another poster if we don't make the tournament, would we come back and eat crow. I'll ask the same of you. I think most people know this is a very important season. But we're 8-2 and in a decent spot. And Brownell has the best ACC winning percentage in school history. Try being a Clemson fan and maybe enjoy a win.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 18, 2016, 7:23 PM
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There were a select few that used to post that about OP hitting his ceiling when we'd lose in the tournament but I don't buy that. We lost most of those games because of poor free throw shooting down the stretch. And I'd rather get there than not at all.
Not to mention we played for an ACC tournament championship so the theory that OP couldn't win in March doesn't hold water. I guarantee you if he was still here we'd have several NCAA tournament wins by now.
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CU Guru [1146]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 18, 2016, 7:30 PM
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Nothing but generalizations. His teams weren't good in tournaments. He had a ceiling, just like his recruiting.
The team Brownell took the tournament wouldn't have sniffed the NCAA's under Purnell. Look at the roster. Can you imagine that team pressing? Sheesh. And we all know he would've never called it off. Cost us a W in the Dean Dome, among numerous others.
Be a Clemson fan, stop pulling against the team at all costs just because you don't like the coach. The players work extremely hard and deserve better.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 18, 2016, 7:36 PM
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"The team Brownell took the tournament wouldn't have sniffed the NCAA's under Purnell."
That's laughable....
That team was loaded with upperclassmen that were recruited and developed by Purnell who were a big part of those tournament runs the years before.
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Varsity [203]
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Yep
Dec 18, 2016, 7:43 PM
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Simpleton d ick.
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CU Guru [1146]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 18, 2016, 8:52 PM
[ in reply to Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year ] |
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> "The team Brownell took the tournament wouldn't have
> sniffed the NCAA's under Purnell."
>
> That's laughable....
>
> That team was loaded with upperclassmen that were
> recruited and developed by Purnell who were a big
> part of those tournament runs the years before.
Proving your lack of basketball knowledge.
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110%er [7718]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 19, 2016, 3:22 PM
[ in reply to Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year ] |
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Wait you mean teams wtih upperclassmen are good at Clemson...
Holy crap its almost like that has always been the recipe for success here and OP left the roster a mess that took a while to clean up. Dont let facts get in the way though.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 19, 2016, 3:28 PM
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Not OP's fault that Brownell couldn't keep the players he had from leaving.
And it's been six years pal, time to stop blaming the dude that had us playing arguably the best basketball in our history for Brownell's shortcomings.
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All-TigerNet [14451]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 19, 2016, 3:34 PM
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i am beginning to think that jhop may have been the reason op could not keep his pants zipped up.
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Legend [16226]
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OP recruited Demontez Stitt, who was largely responsible
Dec 19, 2016, 3:46 PM
[ in reply to Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year ] |
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for guiding us to 3 NCAA appearances under Purnell and the one under Brownell. Purnell's one-trick-pony style withered reliably and consistently when we would play quality teams and coaches. While I enjoyed winning a little more there near the end of his run, the post-season losses were maddening and I for one saw nothing in OP that showed he could adapt in those circumstances going forward.
"Arguably the best basketball in our history" leading to exactly ZERO tourney wins is laughable.
FWIW, despite our lackluster history and CBB's style, he has consistently upped the talent level, albeit incrementally, in every year he's been here and is showing no signs of reversing that trend.
Go Tigers!
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: OP recruited Demontez Stitt, who was largely responsible
Dec 19, 2016, 3:59 PM
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It's amazing that you bash the guy that got us to the tournament 3 straight years, had us consistently ranked in the top 25, and played for an ACC tournament championship and in the same post praise the current coach that hasn't been to the NCAA's but one time and that was with the guy you just finished bashings players.
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110%er [7718]
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Re: OP recruited Demontez Stitt, who was largely responsible
Dec 19, 2016, 4:01 PM
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"Consistently ranked in the top 25"....
We finished the season ranked TWICE in his entire time here. Those years we were 23rd and 24th.
Sorry facts dont back up your false narratives you try to push as facts.
Also those seasons were not his last two so stop pushing the narrative that we were skyrocketing to the top and improving.
Message was edited by: Clemalum07®
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Legend [16226]
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I was not bashing OP, just acknowledging the reality that
Dec 19, 2016, 4:20 PM
[ in reply to Re: OP recruited Demontez Stitt, who was largely responsible ] |
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he had reached his zenith and wasn't going to get us over the top, so I was very okay with a change there.
As far as CBB is concerned, the jury is still out on my end, but considering he's the winningest coach in ANY league play in our program's history, I'd say he deserves the benefit of the doubt to this point. On that note also, this is the most talent our basketball team has had on its roster IMO since the Rick Barnes days, thus if we don't make this year's NCAA tourney then I would support exploring new options.
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110%er [7718]
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 19, 2016, 4:00 PM
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Sigh....
When you have to come back year after year after year and defend the guy that should tell you something.
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110%er [7718]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 19, 2016, 4:07 PM
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TIL me saying that this year was Tournament or bust is defending him....
Good job Skeeter3.
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Legend [16121]
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110%er [7718]
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CU Guru [1736]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 18, 2016, 8:45 PM
[ in reply to Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year ] |
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Most people believe that if BB doesn't get to the tourney this year he will be gone. I think most people would agree with parts of your argument but the fact that you decided to bring this up while the team is on a 5 game winning streak and beating Bama seems odd.
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Orange Blooded [3723]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 18, 2016, 6:09 PM
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The little whimp speaks from a keyboard, f'n pu$$y
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Orange Blooded [4095]
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No offense, but you sound like a CNN "Expert" ...
Dec 18, 2016, 6:11 PM
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Give the guy a chance. IF he can't do it with this year's talent, then your point is valid IMHO.
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110%er [6280]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 18, 2016, 6:16 PM
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You are out of your mind.
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Orange Blooded [3220]
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and you shouldn't be chicken-pecking on the tigernets.***
Dec 18, 2016, 6:21 PM
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Orange Blooded [2332]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 18, 2016, 6:24 PM
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I wonder how old the original poster is? Clearly this person is not impressed with CBB. Having been listening today and since the Tate's Locke era, we are blessed to have a patient experienced coach. I was impressed with our guard play today.
We have an experienced team overall and I expect continued improvement. We will continue building.
Go Tigers!
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Orange Blooded [2332]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 18, 2016, 7:03 PM
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Jhop,
Purcell took a program to short term success, but he never recruited talent which could sustain a program. He left Clemson because he knew his program was about to decline due to failed recruiting. Brownell is not perfect, but we would not have a improved LJC without his work. Tiger BB is a long term project and you and other negative fans need to support our program.
Go Tigers!
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 18, 2016, 7:15 PM
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He never recruited talent?
Maybe if you're comparing his recruiting to Petrino or Calipari....
Theres a reason Brownell's only tournament appearance in six years was his first with Purnell's players.
And don't say OP left Brownell nothing. He left him the highest rated recruit ever to sign with Clemson and we had several players leave the program after Brownell was hired....
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Legend [16121]
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"the highest rated recruit to ever sign with Clemson"? I
Dec 19, 2016, 11:51 PM
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think that theory has been debunked
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Heisman Winner [112363]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 18, 2016, 6:29 PM
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Not the coach!
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Heisman Winner [111385]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 18, 2016, 6:49 PM
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hey celt, did you guys forget to close the pen? this one got out.
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All-TigerNet [12098]
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shhhhhhh
Dec 18, 2016, 6:52 PM
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We're hoping he forgot about us.
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Heisman Winner [112363]
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All-TigerNet [12098]
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make as much sense as your 6000 year old flat earth ideas***
Dec 18, 2016, 6:51 PM
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 18, 2016, 6:56 PM
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We're 8-2 bro. If we fall apart, I may agree with you that a change is needed.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 18, 2016, 6:56 PM
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We're 8-2 bro. If we fall apart, I may agree with you that a change is needed.
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All-In [48078]
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A couple of reasons why I am glad he is still here.
Dec 18, 2016, 7:12 PM
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1. He has a large buyout.
2. He brought in some good players and we have a very good recruiting class on the way.
3. We are better than we have been in years.
4. If he goes, I want to have our next recruiting class on campus first.
It was good he is back this year.
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Legend [16900]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 18, 2016, 7:13 PM
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We're 8-2 but our RPI (after today's win is 68). We've only played one top 50 team and lost. We have zero quality wins and one bad loss (Oklahoma). Our next 4 games are all top 20 RPI teams. It will be a make or break stretch for the season. Again, we've only played a single top 50 team. Making any prediction about how the next 4 games will go is purely guessing.
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CU Guru [1146]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 18, 2016, 7:32 PM
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I'm seeing:
Nebraska (47)
Georgia (57)
Davidson (54)
Solid batch of wins with 2 more top 25 RPI teams to play. Nebraska will drop after losing to GW, but still.
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110%er [7718]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 19, 2016, 3:25 PM
[ in reply to Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year ] |
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Kenpom has us at 29.
Massey Composite has us at 36.
Shocking that viztiz would pick the lowest of the bunch of metrics available.
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Legend [16900]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 20, 2016, 2:02 PM
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Or perhaps the one that is actually used by the NCAA (RPI) but feel free to make stuff up - you usually do.
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110%er [7718]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 20, 2016, 2:10 PM
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lol what did I make up.
Please tell me on wise one.
Fact of the matter on Massey Composite most people have us in the 30s a far cry from what you tried to push off.
Lets also ignore the fact that RPI this early in the year can be very misleading. You really think Mid Tenn St is the number 7 team in the country?
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Legend [16900]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 20, 2016, 3:00 PM
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I think their 2 wins against top 50 teams are a lot better than our 0 and they haven't lost to a sub-100 team like we have. So it's probably a heck of a lot more accurate than whatever nonsense you are spouting as usual. But since you have this thread on blast I don't really have the time or inclination to look at all of your garbage.
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110%er [7718]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 20, 2016, 3:04 PM
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So you do think they are the 7th best team in the country.
Interesting so you also think a 4-8 Texas Southern team is better than us? Or how about 6-6 Nichols State? Or 5-4 Davidson who we beat by 17? Or 7-3 UGA we beat by 10?
The fact that you think the RPI is a good metric this early in the season shows how little you know.
Viztiz you show once more you know very little about sports.
Also you never said what I made up.... Typical of you to throw out false accusations.
Massey Ratings http://www.masseyratings.com/cb/compare.htm
Ken Pom Ratings http://kenpom.com/
They have changed slightly the past couple days.
Message was edited by: Clemalum07®
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Commissioner [963]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 20, 2016, 3:21 PM
[ in reply to Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year ] |
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> I think their 2 wins against top 50 teams are a lot
> better than our 0 and they haven't lost to a sub-100
> team like we have. So it's probably a heck of a lot
> more accurate than whatever nonsense you are spouting
> as usual. But since you have this thread on blast I
> don't really have the time or inclination to look at
> all of your garbage.
Georgia is currently a top 50 win (47).
http://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/rpi/_/groupId/23
Like others have said, the RPI is incredibly inaccurate at this point in the year. Mid-major teams will drop once their conference play begins, and Power 6 teams will rise, due to their beginning to play those top opponents on a nightly basis.
Carry on.
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Legend [16900]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 20, 2016, 4:27 PM
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I use Warren Nolan because it offers live RPI updating. There is nothing subjective about it. It is the actual RPI formula - applied in real time. Georgia is 60th as of today. Of course rankings are volatile this time of year - but so are any that oher posters are desperately searching the internet for to validate their idiotic points of view (not referring to you). As I pointed out above, our next 4 games and 6 of 7 are against top 25 teams. With such a crucial stretch immediately in front of us any conjecture based on the season to date is meaningless. Trying to pimp wins against Alabama or Georgia as meaningful out of conference wins is sad.
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110%er [7718]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 20, 2016, 4:37 PM
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You are aware the Massey composite uses All RATINGS averaged out including your precious RPI right?
You continue to show ignorance in this thread when it comes to rankings in college basketball it is quite sad.
Sadly I think you are smarter tahn this but using other sources wouldnt meet your pathetic anti CBB agenda. Much like your posts about Coach Lee early last baseball season.
Message was edited by: Clemalum07®
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All-TigerNet [14451]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 20, 2016, 4:57 PM
[ in reply to Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year ] |
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WOULDN'T you just love to see old viz and jhop snuggled up together writing up their talking points on clemson. come to think of it, it would not take long. they say the same thing over and over and .............
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CU Guru [1146]
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Re: Brownell shouldn't be coaching this year
Dec 20, 2016, 5:56 PM
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Literally, it's exhausting.
I'd really love to see JHop83 say just one good thing about the basketball program.
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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Clemson people know zilch about basketball....
Dec 18, 2016, 7:18 PM
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I say it every year....
posters get on here talking about what Clemson should do in Basketball
and they come off sounding like a USuCk Coot does when they're talking about Football.
lame, uneducated, superficial, arrogant and privileged, couch potato,
basically clueless and classless.
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Hall of Famer [22965]
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Not true.....You can include yourself in
Dec 18, 2016, 11:26 PM
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yourself in that blanket generalization if you like....But there are knowledgeable, staunch Clemson basketball fans extant and always have been. None of them would argue the university fan base is dynamically football-centric, but just like long time Clemson baseball fans, there are long time Tiger basketball fans as well
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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I'll give you a handful of true "fans".....
Dec 19, 2016, 4:05 PM
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most think Dale Davis was a 'Thunder' RB from Atlanta.
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Hall of Famer [22965]
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Sounds as if the only Clemson people knowing "zilch"
Dec 20, 2016, 7:48 AM
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about basketball are you and your buddies....Try a new group of fans/friends...Might raise everyone's IQ level....It's idiotic to project your limited experience/knowledge as being true for everyone
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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I'm not projecting - I'm just reading this Board...
Dec 20, 2016, 2:43 PM
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please don't try to play keyboard psychiatrist.
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Oculus Spirit [82999]
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Lutz, you obviously don't understand
Dec 18, 2016, 7:33 PM
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the significance of a road win against any major conference team.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Lutz, you obviously don't understand
Dec 18, 2016, 7:38 PM
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The fact that a win over Alabama is significant is the problem....
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Lutz, you obviously don't understand
Dec 18, 2016, 9:32 PM
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^^^^ IMO, beating Alabama in BBall instead of football is like beating Kentucky in football instead of BBall. I don't put a whole lot of stock into that.
That said - I managed to sit thru 15-20 minutes of watching the game, and honestly, they are "better" than I've seen in years - so there's hope. I think this team could make the tourney, but don't expect a miracle run. I don't watch BBall a lot - so my opinion of BBall isn't that great (but I've been spot on for years - just sayin').
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Legend [16900]
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Re: Lutz, you obviously don't understand
Dec 18, 2016, 10:20 PM
[ in reply to Lutz, you obviously don't understand ] |
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The only signifiance to any road win - regardless of opponent - is that it counts as 1.3 wins in 1/3 of the RPI formula. The impact on the other 2/3 of the formula is baked in based on the quality of the opponent. In Alabama's case - not good.
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Orange Blooded [2474]
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OK then!***
Dec 18, 2016, 8:04 PM
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Legend [18407]
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Re: Message removed by Author
Dec 18, 2016, 9:29 PM
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Reading through this thread and I am confused...I kinda think they are off to a good start. Losses to xavier and okie aint bad. Okie usually a good team when said and done. Xav is top 10 and Tigers had a good showing. We won't know until late February how good/bad the rpi teams are.
My bet is we flirt with being sweet 16 this year. Keep brownell at least through next year.
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Scout Team [171]
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Re: Message removed by Author
Dec 19, 2016, 3:18 PM
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Dumbest f ing thread. Somebody has an ax to grind. "What, your daddy didn't get the job?"
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110%er [5513]
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OP > BB and its not even debatable
Dec 19, 2016, 4:05 PM
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.
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110%er [7718]
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Re: OP > BB and its not even debatable
Dec 19, 2016, 4:08 PM
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lol and now NAT has shown up. Another guy missing from the Bball forum lately.
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Legend [16121]
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Legend [16121]
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here's a hint
Dec 19, 2016, 4:26 PM
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It wasn't OP
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Legend [16226]
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Scout Team [171]
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Re: OP > BB and its not even debatable
Dec 19, 2016, 6:55 PM
[ in reply to OP > BB and its not even debatable ] |
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Brownell .619 overall win record > OP .537 overall win records.
OP did well but hit the ceiling. BB is upping the quality of players every year and with that the quality of play. All while the ACC has become a more difficult place to complete. What I don't understand is a select few whining like jealous catty school girls. We have a good coach, good assistants and a nice group of talented players that deserve support. Unless your life is so miserable you just can't find enjoyment in being supportive and if that's the case please seek professional help because crying on a message board is a waste of your time and obviously not the kind of therapy needed.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: OP > BB and its not even debatable
Dec 19, 2016, 7:01 PM
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Actually OP had a .605 winning percentage. Get your facts straight.
And he inherited a real dumpster fire. By year 3 we won 19 game and 20+ the 4 years after that including 3 straight trips to the NCAA's and a winning record in the ACC those years.
There is no debating who was a better head coach at Clemson.
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Scout Team [171]
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Re: OP > BB and its not even debatable
Dec 19, 2016, 7:55 PM
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In case you didn't read it correctly I said "overall" win percentage. Again, I think if you have been grinding an ax this long and hard maybe you need to seek a professionals help with your issues.
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Scout Team [171]
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Re: OP > BB and its not even debatable
Dec 19, 2016, 8:01 PM
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not to be redundant but, BB is No. 1 in Clemson coaching history in terms of winning percentage against ACC competition and is only eight ACC wins behind Cliff Ellis for the school record
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: OP > BB and its not even debatable
Dec 19, 2016, 8:35 PM
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That may be but he inherited a basketball program on the rise and we haven't progressed at all.
Purnell inherited a program in shambles and by year six we were a perennial tournament team and fixture in the top 25.
We also went 10-6, 9-7, 9-7 his last 3 years in the ACC, so by the time his program was established OP was doing well in conference.
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CU Guru [1146]
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Re: OP > BB and its not even debatable
Dec 19, 2016, 8:46 PM
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You're just incapable of realizing that a team with:
Demontez Stitt
Jerai Grant (had done absolutely nothing in a Clemson uniform)
Tanner Smith
Bryan Narcisse (had done nothing in a Clemson uniform)
Bobo (had done nothing in a Clemson uniform)
Andre Young
Devin Booker (had done nothing in a Clemson uniform)
Milton Jennings (had done nothing in a Clemson uniform
...is NOT, BY ANY MEANS WHATSOEVER, a program on the rise. And remember, there were 0 freshman. Brownell brought one with him. That's it. And Brownell developed Xavier Anderson into a guy that could contribute.
How you think that roster would've made the NCAA Tournament under OP, pressing the whole game, is the most laughable and indicative thing you could say.
There might be 4, maybe 3, players on that roster who would thrive in a pressing system. We might have made the NIT, but I highly doubt it.
Regardless, our talent now is much better than it was then. So hey, NAT if we make the NCAA Tournament, will you go away forever?
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: OP > BB and its not even debatable
Dec 19, 2016, 9:01 PM
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Milt and Devin were both freshmen OP's last season were they not?
Pretty sure they were.....
You can spin it all you want but to say we have more talent now is just laughable and notice all the accolades you're having to downplay that Brownell has never achieved.
He's never made the tournament with his own players, he's never played for a conference championship, he's never had a team finish the season in the top 25....
And you continue to ignore what he inherited vs. what OP inherited.
This is not even a discussion. Oliver Purnell had us playing some of the best ball in our history....
I was wrong to say what I did in the original post in the middle of the season which is why I deleted it but that doesn't mean I'm not right about the state of our program.
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Legend [16226]
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There were 9 scholly players in CBB's first year after OP.
Dec 19, 2016, 9:17 PM
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Nuk had to join the team just to give them 5 on 5 in practice. There is no way in any fantasy world you may create that OP gets that team into the tourney - not with his one and only press gameplan. It ain't happening. OP had a good run for a few years but had clearly hit a wall. Then he bailed.
It's interesting that you refuse to acknowledge how talented this year's squad actually is, or perhaps you just don't see it because it's something that CBB has assembled. It's deep, there's youth, and our next class is shaping up well again. If CBB were to get canned at the end of this season, the next coach would inherit a far greater situation than OP left behind. And it's not even close.
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CU Guru [1146]
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Re: There were 9 scholly players in CBB's first year after OP.
Dec 19, 2016, 9:42 PM
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> Nuk had to join the team just to give them 5 on 5 in
> practice. There is no way in any fantasy world you
> may create that OP gets that team into the tourney -
> not with his one and only press gameplan. It ain't
> happening. OP had a good run for a few years but had
> clearly hit a wall. Then he bailed.
>
> It's interesting that you refuse to acknowledge how
> talented this year's squad actually is, or perhaps
> you just don't see it because it's something that CBB
> has assembled. It's deep, there's youth, and our next
> class is shaping up well again. If CBB were to get
> canned at the end of this season, the next coach
> would inherit a far greater situation than OP left
> behind. And it's not even close.
Thank you for injecting basketball logic into this conversation. Though Jhop83 will probably ignore basically everything you said.
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CU Guru [1146]
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Re: OP > BB and its not even debatable
Dec 19, 2016, 9:35 PM
[ in reply to Re: OP > BB and its not even debatable ] |
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It's unreal you talk about anyone else ignoring anything. That's your sweet spot.
There were no incoming freshman. Milton and Devin were both sophomores during Brownell's first year. And up to that point, they looked like they should've been 1-star recruits until Brownell & staff developed them.
I never, ever said Brownell has more talent than Purnell ever brought in. I said Brownell has more talent now than what he was left with in Purnell's last season. If you try and argue that, just delete your account.
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CU Guru [1146]
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Re: OP > BB and its not even debatable
Dec 19, 2016, 8:49 PM
[ in reply to Re: OP > BB and its not even debatable ] |
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3 years isn't perennial. And we were not a fixture in the Top 25.
We were in the Top 25 essentially all year when KC Rivers was a senior (OP's next to last year). The next year, we were in and out (OP's last year). And the year before, we were never in it.
So please end this "fixture in the Top 25" storyline because it's simply not true.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Legend [16121]
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what a fecking coward***
Dec 19, 2016, 4:21 PM
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Orange Blooded [2132]
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To the OP......
Dec 19, 2016, 9:19 PM
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......Purnell didn't have to go against the likes of Louisville, Syracuse, Pitt and Notre Dame either. As a matter of fact the ACC as a whole while Purnell was here was at one of the lowest moments ever so the fact Purnell didn't do more is an indictment on his coaching abilities. UNC was a shell of itself and Duke wasn't Duke year in and year out. Use to a .500 league record automatically got you into the tournament when Purnell was here. Now it doesn't even get you into the conversation for the NIT. So while it is fun to think of Purnell as some coaching God that did wonders for Clemson when in reality that couldn't be farther from the truth. Brownell has averaged only one more loss than Purnell playing a schedule 10 times harder than anything Purnell could even imagine. I am surprised that a basketball aficionado as you claim to be doesn't see the big difference in competition Brownell has had to face compared to Purnell. Please please don't tell me you forgot how much easier the league was minus the perennial tournament teams the league brought in after Purnell or how down the league was while Purnell was here. I mean someone as knowledgeable as you tell us you are about basketball I find it hard to believe you have forgotten those easy to remember facts.......
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Orange Blooded [2132]
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Comment above was for the OP not you CM I guess
Dec 19, 2016, 9:21 PM
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I didn't notice which post I was commenting under.....
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: To the OP......
Dec 19, 2016, 9:34 PM
[ in reply to To the OP...... ] |
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I'd like to see some stats that prove the ACC is tougher now.
I know for a fact off the top of my head your statement on UNC is wrong because their last two national titles came in 2005 and 2009 when OP was here AND....
They were the #1 overall seed in the NCAA tournament and made it to the final four the year we lost to them by 5 points in the ACC tournament championship.
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CU Guru [1146]
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Re: To the OP......
Dec 19, 2016, 9:36 PM
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UNC lost in the Elite 8 to Georgetown.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: To the OP......
Dec 19, 2016, 9:48 PM
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Wrong....
"The 2007–08 season was just as successful, culminating in another ACC regular season and tournament championship. Williams led the Tar Heels to a school-record 36 wins, the #1 overall ranking in the final AP poll, a #1 seed in the East Region of the tournament, the tournament's overall #1 seed, and the 2008 Final Four. The Tar Heels' run ended with an 84–66 loss in the Final Four to Kansas, Williams' former team."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roy_Williams_(coach)
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: To the OP......
Dec 19, 2016, 9:52 PM
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So in Purnell's fifth season (this is Brownell's sixth) we went 24-10 (10-6), finished 3rd in the ACC regular season, and lost in the ACC tournament championship to UNC by 5 points after they posted their best season in school history....
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CU Guru [1146]
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Re: To the OP......
Dec 19, 2016, 9:40 PM
[ in reply to Re: To the OP...... ] |
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> I'd like to see some stats that prove the ACC is
> tougher now.
>
> I know for a fact off the top of my head your
> statement on UNC is wrong because their last two
> national titles came in 2005 and 2009 when OP was
> here
In 07-08, when Clemson made it to the ACC Championship game under OP, there were 5 ACC teams in the KenPom Top 40.
This season, there are 10 ACC teams in the KenPom Top 40.
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110%er [7718]
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Re: Message removed by Author
Dec 19, 2016, 10:52 PM
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Fact of the matter is OP made this post after we just beat a Bama team on the road to win yet another game this year improving our OOC record so far to 8-2.
Great fan he is.
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Commissioner [963]
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My Two Cents
Dec 20, 2016, 2:06 AM
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Let's take a look at this thing from a couple of different points of view.
First let's start by showing two groups of players:
Group #1
Cliff Hammonds
Sam Perry
James Mays
Cheyenne Moore
Troy Mathis
K.C. Rivers
Julius Powell
Raymond Sykes
Trevor Booker
Karolis Petrukonis
A.J. Tyler
David Potter
Group #2
Demontez Stitt
Terrence Oglesby
Jerai Grant
Andre Young
Tanner Smith
Bryan Narcisse
Catalin Baciu
Devin Booker
Milton Jennings
Donte Hill
Noel Johnson
Now, please tell me that you'd consider Group #2 better than Group #1 and I'll may for your admission to a mental institution. Plain and simple: Oliver Purnell stopped recruiting. Even the T. Booker, Petrukonis, Tyler, Potter class was INCREDIBLY weak, outside of Booker. To argue that the program was on the rise is crazy. Anybody with half a brain could see, with Oglesby leaving after two years and Jennings and Johnson being two of the biggest busts in school history, the outlook on Purnell's tenure wasn't a positive one when Oliver left in the middle of the night to go to Chicago.
If you're a football guy, here's an analogy that I think us Clemson fans can appreciate.
Oliver Purnell was to Clemson Basketball as Steve Spurrier was to South Carolina Football.
Both coaches got their teams to conference title games, but did not win it all. Both took the program to higher spots than it had been to in a long time. Both energized a fan base that could easily be described as numb. However, towards the end of their tenures, each of them stopped deeply evaluating the players they were bringing in, and they both got out when they saw the writing on the wall.
Group #1 above were players who were recruited by and able to finish under Purnell (Vernon Hamilton was a Larry Shyatt recruit that played for Purnell for four years). Group #2 were players that were left in the cupboard...in other words, Purnell's final three recruiting classes (minus Marcus Thornton, who requested out of his LOI when Purnell left and ended up signing with Georgia and having a very mediocre career).
Since you say you want stats to prove the ACC is better now than it was then, here's a few more that others haven't already posted:
- During Purnell's tenure at Clemson (2003-04 to 2009-10), the ACC averaged 1.9 teams in the Sweet 16 of the NCAA Tournament each year (average of 5.5 bids per year). During Brownell's tenure at Clemson thus far (2010-11 to 2015-16), the ACC averaged 3.2 teams in the Sweet 16 of the NCAA Tournament each year (average of 5.3 bids per year).
- A deeper look at those numbers reveals that the ACC was true to its stereotype during Purnell's era...a two team conference, which makes the 2006-07 collapse by Clemson even more astounding (only team in America to start 17-0 and failed to make the NCAA Tournament after losing 10 of the last 14 games of the season).
- During Clemson's 2007-08 season (the season in which it played for the conference championship), only four ACC teams played in the NCAA Tournament. Clemson had a good win against Duke in the ACC Tournament, but it's extremely difficult to argue that the conference was much deeper than N. Carolina, Duke, Clemson, and Miami that season. Maryland was down, Georgia Tech was 7th in the conference and had a losing overall record on the year and Virginia Tech played one of the weakest schedules in major college basketball (which cost them an NCAA bid).
As others have stated before, Brownell has the best winning percentage in ACC play in Clemson history, and he's 9 wins away from leading Clemson in all-time ACC wins (which means he'd do it in three less seasons than Cliff Ellis took to do it). By the way, Cliff Ellis' final 5-6 years are, without a doubt, the best years in Clemson basketball history, though based off context clues, I'd imagine you'd barely know who Rick Barnes and Larry Shyatt are, much less Bill Foster and Cliff Ellis.
Oliver Purnell, in my opinion, had the third best tenure of any head coach in Clemson basketball history. The two I would put above him are Cliff Ellis and Rick Barnes. Brownell's final legacy has yet to be written, though I will say that, after this year, the two bullet points of saying that (1) he has more NBA products than anybody at Clemson except for Cliff Ellis and (2) he led efforts to renovate an arena that, by plenty of other accounts, now places us in the top 3-4 in the league in facilities, will speak volumes above Purnell's overall Clemson resume.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: My Two Cents
Dec 20, 2016, 7:34 AM
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Why are you ignoring Purnell's last class made up of Devin Booker, Milton Jennings, Donte Hill, and Noel Johnson which was the best class in Clemson history?
The statement that "Oliver Purnell quit recruiting" is a myth just like the coot myth that Spurrier had quit recruiting. SC was sitting in the top 5 of the 2015 recruiting rankings until Spurrier made the 2-3 year comment and recruits started jumping ship.
I'm sorry Purnell disappointed you by not winning that conference title over the nations #1 team and arguably the best basketball program in history, but I'm glad Brownell is satisfying you with his ACC tournament one and dones and his NIT bids.
You threw out two stats on the ACC....one (avg. # of NCAA bids) doesn't help your argument at all considering it was slightly higher during Purnell's tenure even though the ACC had THREE less teams.
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All-TigerNet [14451]
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Re: My Two Cents
Dec 20, 2016, 7:38 AM
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and you may not know at least 3 of those were going to transfer had op stayed. fact. believe it or not.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: My Two Cents
Dec 20, 2016, 7:56 AM
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Lol. I didn't realize hypothetical guesses could be constituted as facts.
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110%er [7718]
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Re: My Two Cents
Dec 20, 2016, 7:59 AM
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Except that is what you are doing with your proclamation that the Milton class was the best ever at Clemson.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: My Two Cents
Dec 20, 2016, 8:02 AM
[ in reply to Re: My Two Cents ] |
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Based on ratings it was....
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110%er [7718]
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Re: My Two Cents
Dec 20, 2016, 8:05 AM
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Except you are attempting to say that they would have performed better under OP when the facts show they were actually just over rated.
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110%er [7718]
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Re: My Two Cents
Dec 20, 2016, 7:48 AM
[ in reply to Re: My Two Cents ] |
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"Why are you ignoring Purnell's last class made up of Devin Booker, Milton Jennings, Donte Hill, and Noel Johnson which was the best class in Clemson history?"
Because it wasnt.
It was a massively overrated class full of busts that were miss evaluated by Purnell.
You really think MIlton Jennings was a 5 star prospect?
Noel Johnson who was supposed to be a sharp shooter went on to Auburn and averaged 2.1 and 4.8 points in his two seasons there. Yep big time recruit.
Donte Hill went on to be nothing more than a role player at ODU.
Yea man that was a great class.... Sorry facts dont back up your BS.
OP did quit recruiting his last year. He had ONE guy committed and he left late in the cycle. THe only one who ignores facts here is YOU. Skeeter3
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: My Two Cents
Dec 20, 2016, 8:00 AM
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It was a great class. Just because those players didn't live up to their rating doesn't mean Purnell had stopped recruiting.
Plus they were recruited to play in Purnell's system....
The only one ignoring facts here are the ones that are actually trying to make the asinine argument that Brownell is/has been better than Purnell at Clemson.
Like I said, in year 5 under Purnell we were 24-10, 10-6 in conference, 3rd place in the ACC reg season and a trio to the dance.
How did Brownell's 5th season go....let's see the facts.
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110%er [7718]
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Re: My Two Cents
Dec 20, 2016, 8:09 AM
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lol a class full of busts is not a good class.
Hell I guess you think Mike Bellamy was a better player than Gallman. I mean he was rated better by a bunch of guys on websites.
OP was left with a better situation than he left Brownell that is a fact that hell you even backed up above when talking about upper classmen being keys to success.
OP inherited a balanced roster without empty classes. Brownell inherited a top heavy roster with very few young players so that in a few years we were going to have few upperclassmen on teams something that is always a recipe for failure at Clemson. That is a fact.
He also came into a brand new arena. That same arena was passed by a BUNCH of schools by the time Brownell took over.
You are the one who doenst understand the history of Clemson basketball and are so clouded by your petty pathetic hatred for a man that you cant see the forest through the trees.
And yes Petty and Pathetic are accurate words to describe someone who made the post you made after a Tiger Win.
Message was edited by: Clemalum07®
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All-TigerNet [14451]
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Re: My Two Cents
Dec 20, 2016, 8:29 AM
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this goober is obviously not a tiger fan, or at least any kind of fan i would ever want supporting my team.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: My Two Cents
Dec 20, 2016, 8:35 AM
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Why because I live in reality?
I can support the team and not be delusional. That's allowed.....
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110%er [7718]
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Re: My Two Cents
Dec 20, 2016, 8:36 AM
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Except you dont live in reality as evidenced by your inability to reply to any of the facts I have provided in the thread.
You pretty much admitted defeat with your sad little "You must be a chicken fan" line.
Lets compare your "reality" with actual facts...
Your "reality" OP was consistently ranked in the top 25.
Facts OP finished two seasons in the top 25 and we were 23rd and 24th.
Your "reality" Op was picking up speed
Facts OPs ranked seasons were not his last two. We were not picking up speed.
Message was edited by: Clemalum07®
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: My Two Cents
Dec 20, 2016, 8:39 AM
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You haven't provided any facts. You've nit picked and pointed to what Purnell's recruits did at other schools.
And you refuse to acknowledge the results OP gave us vs Brownell to which there is no comparison....
Coot.
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110%er [7718]
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Re: My Two Cents
Dec 20, 2016, 8:47 AM
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Everything I have provided to you was facts. So you honestly think Milton Jennings was a 5 star player. You honestly think Noel Johnson was a big time scorer? You honestly believe those things? If you do then we are done here because it is obvious you know little about basketball.
You also have ignored the fact that I have said over and over again that it is NCAA T or bust this year.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: My Two Cents
Dec 20, 2016, 9:49 AM
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Why would you say that if Brownell was doing such an excellent job compared to the guy he replaced?
Nobody was saying "tournament or bust" OP's last year....
You just slaughtered your entire argument in one post.
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110%er [7718]
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Re: My Two Cents
Dec 20, 2016, 10:01 AM
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Link to me saying Brownell is doing an excellent job.
I have never once said that. What I have done is defend him from bull #### accusers like you who pretend like the problems werent there at the end of OPs tenure that hurt CBB at the start of his tenure.
What I have said is the program has been improving under him since he has begun actually getting a balanced roster after having to straighten out the mess. What I have accurately said is that our facilities were 1000% #### compared to the rest of the league.
You have YET to dispute a single fact I have posted about the end of OPs tenure. You would rather trash a current coach than to look at one who left Clemson in the middle of the night without the guts to even tell his players face to face.
Some Clemson fan you are.
Still waiting on your Milton answer you have managed to avoid it numerous times.
Message was edited by: Clemalum07®
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Commissioner [963]
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Re: My Two Cents
Dec 20, 2016, 10:24 AM
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With the "that was a great class argument", then let's do this:
Cliff Hammonds
James Mays
Sam Perry
Cheyenne Moore
Troy Mathis
Devin Booker
Milton Jennings
Noel Johnson
Donte Hill
Which group do you want? It's not even close man.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: My Two Cents
Dec 20, 2016, 10:36 AM
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Those players were recruited to play in Purnell's system....but that's not the point anyway.
The point was to refute the myth that "Purnell had stopped recruiting". That is a lie.
Maybe Purnell did miss on those players, but that doesn't mean he stopped recruiting....Milton Jennings was a 5 star McDonald's All American. Maybe he was a bust but again, that does not mean Purnell "quit recruiting".
The bottom line is Brad Brownell inherited a program that had won 20+ games four straight years, been to the NCAA tournament three straight years, and had a winning record in the ACC three straight seasons and he has not sustained that success.
We have regressed as a program and I said we would six years ago when Brownell was hired.
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All-In [48078]
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I think the best tee best thing for the program...
Dec 20, 2016, 10:41 AM
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is too get all the recruits on campus, let CBB build us up the best he can now that he has us moving in the right direction, and then to hire someone new when his contract runs out. That's with what I have seen so far. I think it is for the best that we have CBB now though.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: I think the best tee best thing for the program...
Dec 20, 2016, 10:55 AM
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I can live with that but I still stand behind my statement that Brownell was a terrible follow up hire to Purnell.
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110%er [7718]
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Re: I think the best tee best thing for the program...
Dec 20, 2016, 10:56 AM
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Who would you have preferred?
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All-In [48078]
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Matt McCall*****
Dec 20, 2016, 11:13 AM
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110%er [7718]
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Re: Matt McCall*****
Dec 20, 2016, 11:19 AM
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So you wanted to hire an ASSISTANT at Florida Atlantic to be the new Head Coach....
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All-In [48078]
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Definitely. I know him a bit and his a Billy D protege.
Dec 20, 2016, 11:43 AM
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He is a stud. He was a Gator and coached at Univerity of Fla under Billy D too. I also supported the hiring of Dabo as HC by the way.
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110%er [7718]
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Re: Definitely. I know him a bit and his a Billy D protege.
Dec 20, 2016, 11:58 AM
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lol this place would have blown up if we hired an assistant coach from FLORIDA ATLANTIC.
GMAFB.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Definitely. I know him a bit and his a Billy D protege.
Dec 20, 2016, 12:23 PM
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I know because the coach we hired came from such a powerhouse program....
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110%er [7718]
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Re: Definitely. I know him a bit and his a Billy D protege.
Dec 20, 2016, 12:44 PM
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Yes because being a head coach at a smaller program and being an assistant at one is definitely equal..
SMDH.
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All-In [48078]
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Not if they reaized he was a Bill D protege..
Dec 20, 2016, 1:33 PM
[ in reply to Re: Definitely. I know him a bit and his a Billy D protege. ] |
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Donovan would have hyped him up. People that knew basketball well would have liked it. Some people didn't like hiring Dabo either. I hope our next hire is just along the level of what I wanted initially. That is the direction we should be going without the remotest question.
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All-In [48078]
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Within 4 years Matt McCall wil be one one of the hottest nam
Dec 20, 2016, 1:39 PM
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names in coaching. Then you will get it. It's better for a school like Clemson to get them early. We will have no chance for a coach like McCall in 5 years.
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All-In [48078]
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You are correct overall.
Dec 20, 2016, 11:07 AM
[ in reply to Re: I think the best tee best thing for the program... ] |
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He is turning the corner finally, but we can do better in he long haul I believe. I am happy with what he is doing now though. He can be like a Tommy Bowden now. He can get us to a certain level and then we need to hire a young protege with some energy and enthusiasm. That's how I see it at least. I thin we need CBB through next season and maybe even 1 more after that. We will be on stale footing with better facilities, some players to work with, and be much more appealing as far as a job. As of right now, the best thing to do is fully support CBB and the program. For all we know he completely shocks us and we get really good?
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: You are correct overall.
Dec 20, 2016, 11:19 AM
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Hope so....
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Commissioner [963]
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Re: You are correct overall.
Dec 20, 2016, 11:57 AM
[ in reply to You are correct overall. ] |
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> He is turning the corner finally, but we can do
> better in he long haul I believe. I am happy with
> what he is doing now though. He can be like a Tommy
> Bowden now. He can get us to a certain level and
> then we need to hire a young protege with some energy
> and enthusiasm. That's how I see it at least. I
> thin we need CBB through next season and maybe even 1
> more after that. We will be on stale footing with
> better facilities, some players to work with, and be
> much more appealing as far as a job. As of right
> now, the best thing to do is fully support CBB and
> the program. For all we know he completely shocks us
> and we get really good?
Because it makes a ton of sense to say "we should keep him now but long-term, we should plan on firing him after he builds us."
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All-In [48078]
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Should we have kept Tommy Bowden? Now you get it*****
Dec 20, 2016, 1:35 PM
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: My Two Cents
Dec 20, 2016, 8:34 AM
[ in reply to Re: My Two Cents ] |
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Lol....Change your tampon dude.
Nobody hates Brownell. I'm just being realistic....
Let's say OP did leave Brownell a terrible situation even though he didn't.....
That still doesn't excuse Brownell's shortcomings a half a decade later.
Purnell built a pretty good program at a school not known for basketball. Brownell hasn't....
That's a fact.
You should trade in your Clemson gear for some garnet and black because you sound like a pathetic coot trying to build up Muschamp.
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110%er [7718]
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Re: My Two Cents
Dec 20, 2016, 8:35 AM
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Wow I would say the non Clemson fan would be the one still bitching after another Win.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: My Two Cents
Dec 20, 2016, 8:37 AM
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I'll stop bitching when Brownell gets us to the tournament....
Sorry I'm not going to act like a win over a terrible basketball team has suddenly got us over the hump.
I'll leave that kind of stuff to you and the coots.
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110%er [7718]
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Re: My Two Cents
Dec 20, 2016, 8:39 AM
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Apparently you felt embarrassed enouhg by your post to delete it.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: My Two Cents
Dec 20, 2016, 8:41 AM
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Not embarrassed, just realized I was wrong for being so harsh in the middle of the season.
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Commissioner [963]
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Re: My Two Cents
Dec 20, 2016, 10:30 AM
[ in reply to Re: My Two Cents ] |
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What exactly did Brad Brownell inherit when he took over the Clemson basketball program after Oliver Purnell left on April 5, 2010?
Some say he took over a dumpster fire...a mess. Some mention that he took over a program that had just been to the NCAA Tournament for three consecutive years. How can both opinions possibly exist? I think it's first necessary to take a look at Oliver Purnell's final two teams at Clemson.
2008-09
Despite the 2007-08 team, led by the senior class of Cliff Hammonds, Sam Perry, and James Mays, reaching the ACC Tournament Championship and breaking the NCAA Tournament appearance drought the year before, I think the 2008-09 team was Purnell's best on the floor.
Team Roster
Departures
Cliff Hammonds (Graduated)
James Mays (Graduated)
Sam Perry (Graduated)
Julius Powell (Transferred)
Matt Morris (Graduated)
Returners
#1 - K.C. Rivers (SR) - G/F
#2 - Demontez Stitt (SO) - G
#12 - Raymond Sykes (SR) - F
#15 - David Potter (JR) - F
#22 - Terrence Oglesby (SO) - G
#35 - Trevor Booker (JR) - F
#45 - Jerai Grant (SO) - F/C
#55 - Karolis Petrukonis (JR) - C
New Arrivals
#5 - Tanner Smith (FR) - G
#10 - Catalin Baciu (FR) - C
#11 - Andre Young (FR) - G
#21 - Brian Narcisse (FR) - F
Walk-Ons
#3 - Zavier Anderson (SO) - G
#4 - Jonah Baize (SO) - F
#44 - Jesse Yanutola (SR) - F
Recruiting Class
Milton Jennings (*****) - F (Committed Apr 2008)
Noel Johnson (****) - G (Committed Jun 2009)
Devin Booker (***) - F/C (Committed Mar 2007)
Donte Hill (***) - G (Committed Aug 2008)
This team went undefeated (14-0) in non-conference play, with wins vs. Temple (neutral site), at UNC Charlotte, at Illinois, at South Carolina, and vs. Alabama. In conference play, it went 9-7 (tied for 5th out of 12 teams), with its most notable win being a 74-47 beatdown of then #4 Duke in Littlejohn Coliseum. This Clemson team entered the Top 25 on December 16 and remained in the Top 18 throughout the entire ACC schedule. Clemson was only ranked outside the Top 13 for two of its ACC regular season games (the final two games of the season).
2009-10
After the disappointing end to the 2009 campaign (loss against Georgia Tech in the ACC Tournament and loss against Michigan in the NCAA Tournament), things only got worse in the off season, as Terrence Oglesby announced he would forgo his final two seasons to pursue a professional career overseas. This made way for the signing of Noel Johnson, who (as shown above) was a late addition to the 2009 recruiting class.
Team Roster
Departures
K.C. Rivers (Graduated)
Terrence Oglesby (Left Early)
Raymond Sykes (Graduated)
Jesse Yanutola (Graduated)
Returners
#2 - Demontez Stitt (JR) - G
#5 - Tanner Smith (SO) - G
#10 - Catalin Baciu (SO) - C
#11 - Andre Young (SO) - G
#15 - David Potter (SR) - F
#21 - Brian Narcisse (SO) - F
#35 - Trevor Booker (SR) - F
#45 - Jerai Grant (JR) - F/C
#55 - Karolis Petrukonis (SR) - C
New Arrivals
#1 - Noel Johnson (FR) - G
#24 - Milton Jennings (FR) - F
#31 - Devin Booker (FR) - F/C
#32 - Donte Hill (FR) - G
Walk-Ons
#3 - Zavier Anderson (SO) - G
#4 - Jonah Baize (SO) - F
Recruiting Class
Marcus Thornton (***) - F (Committed Nov 2008)
This team went 12-2 in non-conference play, with wins vs. Long Beach State (neutral site), vs. #12 Butler (neutral site), vs. South Carolina, and at East Carolina. Losses in non-conference play were vs. Texas A&M (neutral site) and vs. Illinois. In conference play, it went 9-7 (tied for 5th out of 12 teams), with its most notable win being a 83-64 win against #12 North Carolina in Littlejohn. This team fell out of the Top 25 for the first time all season after losing at home against Illinois on December 2. This team's last game in the Top 25 (and coincidentally to this day Clemson's last game as a program in the Top 25) was a College GameDay feature matchup against eventual National Champion #7 Duke in Littlejohn Coliseum, a 60-47 loss.
Now let's look at Brad Brownell's arrival.
2010-11
After another first round loss, this one to Missouri, in the Big Dance, Oliver Purnell abruptly left Clemson on April 5, 2010. The loss of Purnell also leads to Marcus Thornton requesting out of his signed LOI...a request that Clemson grants. Clemson hires Brad Brownell on April 13, 2010, who brings Cory Stanton, a previous Wright State commit, with him as his only incoming player.
Team Roster
Departures
Trevor Booker (Graduated)
David Potter (Graduated)
Noel Johnson (Transferred)
Karolis Petrukonis (Graduated)
Donte Hill (Transferred)
Jesse Yanutola (Graduated)
Returners
#2 - Demontez Stitt (SR) - G
#5 - Tanner Smith (JR) - G
#10 - Catalin Baciu (JR) - C
#11 - Andre Young (JR) - G
#21 - Brian Narcisse (JR) - F
#24 - Milton Jennings (SO) - F
#31 - Devin Booker (SO) - F/C
#45 - Jerai Grant (SR) - F/C
New Arrivals
#12 - Cory Stanton (FR) - G
Walk-Ons
#3 - Zavier Anderson (SO) - G
#4 - Jonah Baize (SO) - F
#44 - DeAndre Hopkins (FR) - G
Recruiting Class
Bernard Sullivan (****) - F (Committed Aug 2010)
TJ Sapp (***) - G (Committed Oct 2010)
Devin Coleman (***) - G (Committed Feb 2011)
Rod Hall (***) - G (Committed Apr 2011)
KJ McDaniels (**) - F (Committed Jan 2011)
This team went 11-3 in non-conference play, with wins vs. Long Beach State (neutral site), vs. Seton Hall (neutral site), and at College of Charleston. Losses in non-conference play were vs. Old Dominion (neutral site), vs. Michigan, and at South Carolina. In conference play, it went 9-7 (tied for 4th out of 12 teams), with its most notable win being a 62-44 home victory over eventual ACC Tournament champion Florida State. This team did not appear in any Top 25 poll.
To me, how anybody could fail to see that Brownell inherited a HUGE challenge when he came in at Clemson is a mystery. Simply look at the departures vs. new arrivals for Purnell's last two seasons at Clemson and you see one major issue. Oliver Purnell stopped effectively evaluating players. Not only that, but look at the list of recruits in those classes and please tell me how many of those guys were really good fits for Purnell's system at Clemson. Your answer is "very few, if any". Oliver Purnell recruited Karolis Petrukonis, Catalin Baciu, Brian Narcisse, Tanner Smith, etc. Those are not Oliver Purnell (types) players!
Couple that with looking at the departures for 2010-11 against the new arrivals. THAT is where your unbalanced roster comes from! THAT is why you saw half of a scholarship roster being FR or SO for Brownell's first two seasons. But the thing is, that's not sustainable over the long haul, unless you're John Calipari, which is why we've opted to bring in so many transfers. Brownell has been fighting a -4 uphill battle ever since he got here, and that takes a LONG time to overcome. It's simply not reasonable to expect to keep 100% of your recruits in school and have them play four years every year. In a perfect world, a team loses approximately 3-4 players a year...a guard, a guard/forward, a forward, and a forward/center. We're yet to really have that luxury two seasons in a row (until last season).
Brownell taking the 2010-11 team to the tournament was a straight miracle.
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110%er [7718]
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Re: My Two Cents
Dec 20, 2016, 10:40 AM
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Yep 100% factual post but he will still argue the same nonsense.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: My Two Cents
Dec 20, 2016, 10:46 AM
[ in reply to Re: My Two Cents ] |
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"Oliver Purnell stopped effectively evaluating players"
Lol. You people are a hoot.
There is no difference between this fanbase and the South Carolina fanbase. Go to a coot board and you'll see the same reaching and grasping for anything and everything to avoid facing reality.
Oliver Purnell brought excitement and success to this program that Brownell has not sustained. The results on the floor prove it.
You can do all the spinning and nitpicking you want but that is the bottom line.
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110%er [7718]
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Re: My Two Cents
Dec 20, 2016, 11:00 AM
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Great job ignoring everything he posted and calling him a Chicken fan.
The first thing you brought up is accurate and evidence by your "GREATEST CLASS EVER IN CLEMSON HISTORY" being full of busts and players that didnt live up to their rankign. Hence #### poor evaluation. Once again facts fo their performance back up my claim more than your nonsense but you will still spout it.
Everything he posted right there was fact and you REFUSE to believe anything other than Brownell is #### and OP is the greatest thing since sliced bread.
You worship a coach that left in the middle of the night and didnt even tell his players.
That alone says a lot about you.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: My Two Cents
Dec 20, 2016, 11:19 AM
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So which is it?
Did Purnell quit recruiting or did he abruptly lose his ability to evaluate talent?
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Legend [16226]
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Nice work - very thorough. Unfortunately wasted on
Dec 20, 2016, 12:55 PM
[ in reply to Re: My Two Cents ] |
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the numb nuts OP here. As the saying goes...
"Never argue with an idiot. You have to get down on their level, and then they beat you with experience."
Go Tigers!
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Nice work - very thorough. Unfortunately wasted on
Dec 20, 2016, 1:29 PM
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It went from "Purnell stopped recruiting" to "Purnell stopped effectively evaluating players".
One statement is a lie and the other no one on this site has the credentials to make.
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110%er [7718]
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Re: Nice work - very thorough. Unfortunately wasted on
Dec 20, 2016, 1:34 PM
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lol holy crap people put all the evidence in front of you backed up by FACTS and Stats and you still ignore it.
Of course you are the same person who just tried to compare being an assistant at a non P5 school to a HC.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Nice work - very thorough. Unfortunately wasted on
Dec 20, 2016, 2:39 PM
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His "facts" in no way prove the statement true that "Purnell stopped correctly evaluating players".
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Commissioner [963]
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Re: Nice work - very thorough. Unfortunately wasted on
Dec 20, 2016, 1:49 PM
[ in reply to Re: Nice work - very thorough. Unfortunately wasted on ] |
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> It went from "Purnell stopped recruiting" to "Purnell
> stopped effectively evaluating players".
>
> One statement is a lie and the other no one on this
> site has the credentials to make.
I'd consider these two statements, in everything I've said, to be synonymous. Sure he brought in players. But he began bringing in fewer and fewer players that were good "fits" for his system. And the ones that, on the surface, looked like they'd be decent fits, ended up being terrible let downs for the fan base. I don't know how much more simple of a statement I can make.
If you're trying to be black and white about it, the two statements are different, since we could bring in someone's dead grandmother to play and that would technically be considered "recruiting". However, I think, deep down, you know what we mean, and you're needing to somehow find something in all of our statements to disagree with, and that's truly sad.
At this point, I honestly have to ask myself if someone like you would rather see us beat South Carolina tomorrow or lose. And yes, I genuinely mean that...because all I've read in your interactions with others here indicates that you're the type of person that gets off on playing the armchair quarterback role with the basketball program. If they win, you can't say anything, but if they lose, you get the chance to be the all-knowing, omniscient fan that claims I told you so all along.
If we win tomorrow, I'm bleeding orange. If we lose, I still bleed orange. That may be true for you as well, but the difference between you and me is that I don't have to look to find ways to make myself feel better when my team loses. I'm not mentally incapable of wrapping my mind around the fact that there are times when other teams are simply better, but in the bigger picture, even in areas off the record books and stat sheets, we've been trending upwards for multiple years now. The fact that you can't/won't see that is just plain unfortunate, because we've got a promising group this year, and there's plenty of talent coming in behind the outgoing seniors.
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110%er [7718]
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Re: Nice work - very thorough. Unfortunately wasted on
Dec 20, 2016, 1:54 PM
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"At this point, I honestly have to ask myself if someone like you would rather see us beat South Carolina tomorrow or lose. And yes, I genuinely mean that...because all I've read in your interactions with others here indicates that you're the type of person that gets off on playing the armchair quarterback role with the basketball program. If they win, you can't say anything, but if they lose, you get the chance to be the all-knowing, omniscient fan that claims I told you so all along."
Nailed it when it comes to this guy.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Nice work - very thorough. Unfortunately wasted on
Dec 20, 2016, 2:41 PM
[ in reply to Re: Nice work - very thorough. Unfortunately wasted on ] |
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Again, you simply listing the recruits doesn't prove they weren't good fits....
Oliver Purnell built a #### good program....I have no reason to doubt his last class (the best in Clemson history ratings wise) was "correctly evaluated".
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110%er [7718]
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Re: Nice work - very thorough. Unfortunately wasted on
Dec 20, 2016, 2:46 PM
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Except they were almost all busts regardless of where they went.
Milton Jennings - Did not play like a 5 star
Booker showed glimpses was probably rated correctly.
Johnson was supposed to be a scorer out of high school never avged more than 5 PPG while playing college ball at TWO schools. Wasnt only under CBB he didnt produce he just was over rated and miss evaluated.
Hill was nothing more than a role played at ODU. Once again on court doesnt lie.
The fact that you keep pushing that BS over and over again shows how little you know about Clemson basketball or those 4 players.
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Legend [17754]
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Posting to get the comment count to 101***
Dec 20, 2016, 7:49 AM
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Commissioner [914]
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Re: Message removed by Author
Dec 20, 2016, 11:30 AM
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Have had mixed feelings about Brownell. Overall inthink he has done a good job with what he has been given and the circumstances adopted. With that said I like this years team a lot. Guard play is much improved and there seems to be a balance that has been missing over the past few seasons. This team will make the tournament this year. Looking forward to catching a couple games in the new John.
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Commissioner [914]
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Re: Message removed by Author
Dec 20, 2016, 11:30 AM
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Have had mixed feelings about Brownell. Overall inthink he has done a good job with what he has been given and the circumstances adopted. With that said I like this years team a lot. Guard play is much improved and there seems to be a balance that has been missing over the past few seasons. This team will make the tournament this year. Looking forward to catching a couple games in the new John.
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Message removed by Author
Dec 21, 2016, 6:04 PM
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Keep hearing "OP couldn't do this" and "OP couldn't do that"....
The FACT is he did more with his players than Brownell is doing with his.
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Legend [16121]
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the fact is Brad won more NCAA Tourney games with OP's
Dec 21, 2016, 11:22 PM
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players in ONE year than OP did in a career
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Message removed by Author
Dec 21, 2016, 11:20 PM
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LOL
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Orange Blooded [4995]
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Re: Message removed by Author
Dec 21, 2016, 11:21 PM
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Glad we won and I hope he proves me wrong.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Message removed by Author
Dec 21, 2016, 11:22 PM
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Same here
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