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Just frustrating.
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Just frustrating.


Nov 13, 2019, 10:47 AM

The fixation on the whistleblower is so obviously illogical and irrelevant, that it's so disappointing to hear members of Congress go on about it. I know they are not stupid, and know that the whistleblower is irrelevant, but they are doing this anyway, and it's just really frustrating to me.

I think the President can be defended from impeachment on his own merits. I would like to see them try this. The fact that some members of Congress feel the need to defend him by attacking irrelevant people is troubling.

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Not frustrating per se, but a waste of time


Nov 13, 2019, 10:52 AM

I don't need to hear witnesses' opinions about what the President did or said. That's irrelevant to impeachment. I want to know whether the President knowingly acted against US interest. Give me witnesses and evidence that can answer that question. I'll be waiting.

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It's absurd anyone cares who the whistleblower is.


Nov 13, 2019, 10:56 AM

He's the guy called the cops. His identity is irrelevant. What's relevant is what actually happened, and that's what the focus needs to be.

They only want the whistleblower's identity so they can destroy him and send a message to anyone else who would dare report wrongdoing.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


The purpose is to use the whistleblower's identity


Nov 13, 2019, 11:33 AM

and "biases" that may show, as a defense of the President, when it is not any sort of defense at all, even if there were "biases".

The President should be impeached on his own merits, if deserved, and should be cleared on his own merits, if deserved. It's about the President, not the whistleblower, and for heaven's sake, certainly not about Hunter Biden.

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Attempting to defend POTUS on the merits of his actions


Nov 13, 2019, 10:57 AM

is futile. The facts plainly show he bribed and extorted Ukraine with taxpayer funded relief for his own benefit. You can try to defend that on a P&R board, but not in front of the House Intelligence Committee.

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are you talking about Joe Biden? The video of him extorting


Nov 13, 2019, 11:19 AM

Ukraine with taxpayer funded relief for his (son's)own benefit.

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Nice attempt to redirect, counselor. However, Biden isn't


Nov 13, 2019, 11:33 AM

the subject of the impeachment inquiry, as he is not the sitting president.

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Impeach him and lets get to the Senate so Joe can be called


Nov 13, 2019, 11:37 AM

as a witness.

Lets go. Vote it up.

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The focus on Biden is the misplaced talking point created


Nov 13, 2019, 11:50 AM

by this administration and its media parrots. If Biden did wrong, punish him. Then so, too, should we do to this administration.

Mulvaney admitted guilt in this case and the facts confirmed by others support his assertion. Yet, in the face of clear wrongdoing/illegal action, I doubt you or our morally rent Trump-supporting Senators will do what is right for the country. They will choose power over service and wrong over right to keep it to the detriment of our country and the weakening of the our Constitution.

All in the defense of a dirtbag like Trump.

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If anyone named Biden did something wrong...


Nov 13, 2019, 11:36 AM [ in reply to are you talking about Joe Biden? The video of him extorting ]

then there should be an investigation of that person, by law enforcement, completely unrelated to these impeachment hearings. They are two different subjects, handled by two different entities, in different ways.

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Is the Book of Genesis irrelevant?


Nov 13, 2019, 11:02 AM

;)

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This is the Trump style, unfortunately


Nov 13, 2019, 2:23 PM

You never quite get to the merits because of all the ad hominem. Everything is corrupt, so nothing can be what it seems.

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Are you sure he can be defended on his own merits?


Nov 13, 2019, 2:36 PM

if so, why do you think that's the case? Wouldn't it seem, by the evidence that they aren't defending on merits, that the only defense they have is one of attacking the whistleblower in an attempt to wash away Trump's action through calls of bias?

Instead of being frustrated, why not see it as tacit evidence towards Trump's illicit behavior?

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I don't think that's necessarily true


Nov 13, 2019, 2:45 PM

Lots of people have argued that Trump withholding aid from Ukraine to try to get Ukraine to investigate the potential corruption of a political rival isn't worth impeaching over. I'm not sure I agree, but there are good reasons to think that it's not so bad.

But this style of ad hominem against whoever is making the accusation is just what happens these days. If you think this stuff is just a witch hunt, then of course you're not going to take the actual allegation seriously. Instead, you'll go after the people making the allegation because they're clearly self-interested, if not partisan. Nobody can criticize Trump because he's actually done something bad, since he's "shaking things up" and that "makes people mad."

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If we didn't have other information giving us context


Nov 13, 2019, 3:07 PM

for your first paragraph, then sure, an argument could be made. But since that information exists it makes that argument pretty difficult to make in good faith. That's why ad hominem against the whistle blower is the only avenue they can really use.

As for your second paragraph, I agree.

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I'd say it's plausible, but not likely***


Nov 13, 2019, 4:29 PM



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The President always lashes out at everyone


Nov 13, 2019, 3:29 PM [ in reply to Are you sure he can be defended on his own merits? ]

remotely critical of him, so in his case, I don't think it's a tacit admission of guilt to attack people. That's just how he operates.

I think it can be argued that the President trying to get Ukraine to investigate crime is a proper, legal thing to do, if it's for the country's interests, not his own. I'd like to hear him/them argue this more, because to me, that's the important point of this whole proceeding. What was his motive?

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Thing is...


Nov 13, 2019, 3:39 PM

does anybody really believe his interest in Biden was just coincidental? Or that investigating Biden was more important than timely aid for Ukraine? I suppose they'll have to argue that.

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Would it make Biden’s actions any less illegal?


Nov 13, 2019, 10:57 PM

No one seems to think Obama’s justice dept opening files on Trump the minute he became a viable candidate is wrong, as long as a full criminal investigation is conducted. Same in this case, and I haven’t yet seen where Ukraine actually was penalized for the investigation they didn’t conduct. This is a bunch of fairy dust it looks more and more like, especially after today.

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Re: Would it make Biden’s actions any less illegal?


Nov 13, 2019, 11:44 PM

Obed said:

No one seems to think Obama’s justice dept opening files on Trump the minute he became a viable candidate is wrong, as long as a full criminal investigation is conducted. Same in this case, and I haven’t yet seen where Ukraine actually was penalized for the investigation they didn’t conduct. This is a bunch of fairy dust it looks more and more like, especially after today.




People are actually dying in Ukraine. Russia is killing Ukrainian soldiers in their own country every day. They've taken 7% of Ukraine so far, an area roughly the size of Texas.

Trump holding back security aid didn't help. Obama was a fool for not supplying Ukraine with lethal aid when the invasion took place. But he's not President anymore so it doesn't matter.

The President of the United States asks a foreign government to investigate an American citizen. That is unprecedented in itself. Do you really believe that Trump would have any interest what so ever in Hunter Biden if his father wasn't running for President?

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The aid was held to make Ukraine announce an investigation


Nov 14, 2019, 12:55 AM [ in reply to Would it make Biden’s actions any less illegal? ]

Only when the whistleblower comes forward and investigations start into why the aid is held up did they release the funding. That's sure sounds like they (Trump and company) were holding the aid (penalty) until Ukraine gave them what they wanted. One last fact--Ukrainian President had a planned CNN interview where he was going to announce an investigation only to cancel when the aid was released. Weird timing, right?

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That's true of the President. But it's just not him doing it


Nov 13, 2019, 3:41 PM [ in reply to The President always lashes out at everyone ]

none of his sycophants in these hearings seem to be trying to argue anything on the merit of the allegations. They are simply going after the whistleblower and claim bias against Trump. Considering how weak an argument that is, it should give real thought about the truthfulness of the allegations against Trump.

Again, the fact that they aren't arguing about his motive (and instead simply going after bias) doesn't point you toward maybe the motive he had is exactly what he's being accused of?

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Many Congressional leaders just parrot him.


Nov 13, 2019, 3:50 PM

They're going to do whatever he does. They probably believe that benefits them politically. The frustrating part is that I know, or am pretty sure, this is their reason for talking like this, not because they actually thing the whistleblower has relevance.

Yes, I would agree that this strategy of defense points toward guilt. That's why I wish they wouldn't do it. But it doesn't prove guilt. When it comes to removing the President from office, I need that proof.

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I hope you get the proof you need to make a decision


Nov 13, 2019, 4:06 PM

I'm curious though, but do you believe there might be a 3rd (or more) possible motive(s) for Trump's actions beyond the two currently being argued (Trump asked for investigations for personal benefit vs country's benefit)?

If not, then a second question, if one of the two motives can be disproved/proved does it make the other true/false or can they both be true/false?

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I hope you get the proof you need to make a decision


Nov 13, 2019, 4:06 PM [ in reply to Many Congressional leaders just parrot him. ]

I'm curious though, but do you believe there might be a 3rd (or more) possible motive(s) for Trump's actions beyond the two currently being argued (Trump asked for investigations for personal benefit vs country's benefit)?

If not, then a second question, if one of the two motives can be disproved/proved does it make the other true/false or can they both be true/false?

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Prod, you're going to have to use your power of


Nov 13, 2019, 4:37 PM [ in reply to Many Congressional leaders just parrot him. ]

inference, here. Though, Mulvaney came out in his press conference and admitted to the bribery/extortion scheme, Trump is not going to announce on Twidder that, "I was worried that Sleepy Joe was gonna be my toughest political opponent and I asked my Ukraine President buddy to help me out. I mean, we all know Joe is dirty...am I right?"

You're just not going to get that.

Facts and evidence support the Trump administration withheld congressionally-approved security aid from Ukraine in exchange for information that would only benefit Trump politically. Bribery and Extortion, right there for all to see. The fact that Ukraine soldiers died on the battlefield waiting for these Javelin missiles runs counter to the national security of Ukraine and the United States. His oath of office is clearly breached.

You're an engineer, this is not calculus or even PEMDAS. This is simple arithmetic.

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There's a difference in me thinking what his motive


Nov 14, 2019, 6:30 AM

probably was, and me being able to prove it to the extent that I'd think he'd deserve removal from office. This is a serious thing. I have a high bar.

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He commits crimes in the name of the United States'


Nov 14, 2019, 10:26 AM

highest office that can only be to his personal benefit and you need to understand his motive? His own chosen ambassador said, "President Trump cares more about the investigations of Biden, which Giuliani was pressing for" than helping Ukraine. There is your intent (motive).

Sondland also placed this call on an unsecured cell phone in a restaurant in Kyiv, in public, for all to hear. You think Russia heard that call? I know they did, thus jeopardizing Ukraine's national security and ours as well.

Malicious intent, add that to the horrible floundering of following security protocols, and Trump's butt should be thrown so far out of office that it doesn't hit ground til he's across the Potomac.

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There's probably not one here who backs Trump's agenda...


Nov 13, 2019, 4:49 PM [ in reply to The President always lashes out at everyone ]

more than me and I believe investigating Biden was a part of why he asked Zelenskyy to start an investigation into Burisma Holdings. This rabbit hole goes much deeper than just one VP and his son.

That being said, I do not believe it can be proven in court that Trump's main goal was to dig up dirt on an opponent. Calling the truth dirt seems wrong to me. Joe admitted he held funding from Ukraine and anyone with two brain cells knows that the prosecutor who got fired had just raided the home of a Burisma official. We also know that Hunter and one of his Buds was on Burisma's BOD and that John Kerry's aid disassociated himself from the group due to the appearance of a conflict of interest.

Imo, those indicators demand investigation by our Justice Department.

Having Ukraine assist in the investigation into our own citizens' behavior in Ukraine is a matter of law since Ukraine and the US have a treaty which ensures such cooperation.

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There is a concept in law called 'Fruit of the forbidden..


Nov 13, 2019, 4:36 PM

tree.'

2024 orange level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpgringofhonor-clemsontiger1988-110.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

...which doesn't apply here.


Nov 13, 2019, 11:57 PM

By the way, I saw a post where you said you don't make wagers??

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Re: Just frustrating.


Nov 13, 2019, 10:26 PM

they are just creating sound bites for the right wing media outlets, nothing more. What is more frustrating is that far too many people in this country , on both sides, lack the critical thinking skills to see it for what it is.

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