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All-In [44048]
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Is this our most talented basketball team ever?
Jan 6, 2018, 4:52 PM
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This is a serious question, and I believe that the answer is yes.
The difference in this year's team, and most of the other basketball teams we have fielded over the past 100+ years, is that these guys strike me as talented basketball players who are also good athletes, as opposed to good athletes who happen to play basketball.
In thinking back to some of our great teams (which, sadly, there aren't many), we have had very few, if any, with the level of top-to-bottom talent we have now. Consider:
-The 79-80 team coached by Bill Foster that made the Elite Eight had Larry Nance, a forward, and Billy Williams, a guard. That team was 23-9 (8-6), and is the farthest our team has ever made it in the NCAA Tournament.
-The 86-87 team coached by Cliff Ellis was 25-6 (10-4), and featured Horace Grant and a young Elden Campbell. Despite a great regular season, this team was upset in the first round of the NCAA Tournament.
-The 88-89 team coached by Cliff Ellis was 19-11 (7-7), led by Elden Campbell and Dale Davis. That team had solid guard play from Derrick Forrest and Marion Cash. We lost in the second round of the NCAA Tournament, getting blown out by #1 seeded Arizona which featured Sean Elliott.
-The 89-90 team coached by Cliff Ellis was 26-9 (10-4), and has the distinction of winning our only ACC regular season title. Elden Campbell and Dale Davis once again led the way, but that team also had good backcourt play from Cash and Forrest. Sean Tyson was a good forward on that team. We made the Sweet Sixteen that year and lost on the infamous buzzer beater to UConn. We later had to vacate those wins due to NCAA sanctions.
-The 96-97 team coached by Rick Barnes went 23-10 (9-7) and lost in the Sweet Sixteen to Minnesota. This team was led by a strong backcourt of Greg Buckner, Terrell McIntyre, and Merl Code. We had some bruisers down low in Harold Jamison and Tom Wideman, who weren't scoring threats but were good for toughness, defense, and rebounding.
-Purnell had a three year run of NCAA Tournament teams, all of which lost in the first round. The 2007-2008 team finished 24-10 (10-6), led by a strong backcourt of Cliff Hammonds and KC Rivers. The 2008-2009 team was 23-9 (9-7), led by Trevor Booker down low and KC Rivers and Terrence Oglesby in the backcourt. Demontez Stitt also provided a spark at PG. The 2009-2010 team finished 21-11 (9-7), and featured Booker down low with Stitt and Andre Young in the backcourt.
Looking at this year's roster, we have one of our best backcourts ever in Mitchell, Reed, and DeVoe. It rivals the McIntyre, Code, and Buckner backcourt we had in the mid-late 90s. We also have a nice front court with Thomas and Grantham. Although it isn't to the level of the Elden Campbell and Dale Davis front court, it is very strong. We also have nice depth on the bench, including Skara, Donnal, and Simms, and Oliver. We have a nice mix of veteran experience and young talent.
While this season is only about halfway complete, and we are still very early in the ACC season, I see great potential in this team as one of our best ever. I really like the fact that we have a strong backcourt as well as go-to players along the front line. For the first time ever, all five starters are capable of scoring 20 points in a game (and all five already have at least once this season). Plus, we play really good defense and shoot well from the free throw line. I can't remember any Clemson teams with both a potent offense and strong defense.
TL;DR: This year's basketball team is arguably our most talented from top to bottom when you consider the fact that we have excellent scorers at all five positions, play strong defense, and make our free throws. We also have good contributors off the bench, with some very nice young freshman talent to complement our battle tested veterans.
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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Not in the top 10. 77-78, 78-79 would be
Jan 6, 2018, 5:01 PM
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at or near the top. You mentioned about 8 or 9 teams that are better.
Plus, it's too early.
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All-In [44048]
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Why do you feel that those late 70s teams were more talented***
Jan 6, 2018, 5:19 PM
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Legend [16136]
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He got his dates wrong***
Jan 6, 2018, 5:34 PM
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CU Medallion [67829]
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All-In [44048]
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So bad that they didn't make a single one!
Jan 6, 2018, 6:32 PM
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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Hall of Famer [22387]
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You and most are probably too young to remember what a
Jan 6, 2018, 6:38 PM
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great collection of talent those teams were.
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All-In [44048]
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Unfortunately I did not get to see those teams play.
Jan 6, 2018, 6:42 PM
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I would love to find some old highlights of those teams. I've searched YouTube in the past and never really found anything.
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All-In [44048]
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The 77-78 team finished 15-12 overall, 3-9 in the ACC.
Jan 6, 2018, 5:32 PM
[ in reply to Not in the top 10. 77-78, 78-79 would be ] |
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Good for 7th in the conference, which was last. Surely you aren't arguing that a team with that finish is one of our most talented ever?!?
The 78-79 team had Larry Nance, who arguably had the best pro career of any Clemson Tiger. That 78-79 team did slightly better than the year before, finishing 19-10 and 5-7 in the ACC (good for 5th). Still not a stellar roster from top to bottom in my opinion though, aside from Billy Williams and Derrick Johnson.
If any teams from the 70s are in consideration as our most talented ever, I would vote for 76-77 team with Tree Rollins, Stan Rome, and Colon Abraham that finished 22-6 and third in the ACC. The 74-75 team had Skip Wise, who is arguably our most talented player despite not being in school very long, as well as a young Tree Rollins and Stan Rome.
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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wait... are you asking for an opinion on most talented...
Jan 6, 2018, 5:34 PM
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or a factual "most accomplished"?
seems you can't decide
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All-In [44048]
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Most talented.
Jan 6, 2018, 5:38 PM
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But accomplishments shouldn't be ignored. It stands to reason that our most talented teams are also likely to be our most successful teams.
It sounds like you aren't willing to have this discussion about this year's team since the season isn't over yet. Is that correct?
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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no... I'm saying you can't make your mind up...
Jan 6, 2018, 5:41 PM
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you ask for an opinion on most talented, someone gives it, and you throw out accomplishments of past teams to argue otherwise...
talent does not always equal accomplishment...
You have stated this team is the most talented... What happens if we finish 9-9 in the ACC and lose early in the ACC tourney?
Do you think we would still the most talented?
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Legend [16136]
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The 08 team was one and done in the Dance, but I would give
Jan 6, 2018, 5:43 PM
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it the nod...for now
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All-In [44048]
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It is unlikely that a 9-9 ACC team is our most talented.
Jan 6, 2018, 6:33 PM
[ in reply to no... I'm saying you can't make your mind up... ] |
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Assuming that there were no major injuries or significant chemistry issues.
Based on what I see with this team, it is as talented as we have had from top to bottom. Strength at all five positions offensively and defensively, with quality depth and young talent on the bench.
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All-TigerNet [14488]
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A very talented FSU football team just went 7-6***
Jan 6, 2018, 6:59 PM
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All-In [44048]
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Yes, and they had significant injuries and chemistry issues.
Jan 7, 2018, 9:51 AM
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As I said in my previous post, wins will typically mirror talent unless there are significant injuries or chemistry issues. Or poor coaching, for that matter.
FSU was very talented this year in football, but I don't think it was nearly as talented as some of their national championship teams of the 90s.
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Legend [16136]
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I would say 08 was our most talented team and 80 team is
Jan 6, 2018, 5:42 PM
[ in reply to Most talented. ] |
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our most accomplished, although the 87 and 97 teams are right there...The jury is still out on this year's squad
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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in my opinion... from a purely talent standpoint...
Jan 6, 2018, 5:44 PM
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I agree... it would be hard to argue with the 08 team..
and OP was able to put them in positions to get the most out of that talent (other than against NOVA apparently)
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Legend [16136]
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yeah, he did everything but win when it mattered most
Jan 6, 2018, 5:46 PM
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poooooot
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110%er [7831]
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Re: Most talented.
Jan 6, 2018, 6:13 PM
[ in reply to Most talented. ] |
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You are correct....the season isn’t close to over. In fact we are just hitting the meat of the schedule. Albeit, we look pretty good. I’ll save evaluations for the end of the year. We’ve all seen this song and dance before.
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All-TigerNet [11934]
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1974 was the most talented by far ...
Jan 6, 2018, 8:28 PM
[ in reply to Not in the top 10. 77-78, 78-79 would be ] |
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Unbelievable talent on that team!
Skip Wise, Tree Rollins, Stan Rome, Colon Abraham, and a host of others.
Lordy, to have been able to see Wise leading those guys as a senior ... and (oh yeah) not be on NCAA probation.
The problem was that the talent was very "expensive" to acquire and maintain.
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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nothing could be more subjective
Jan 6, 2018, 5:05 PM
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"most talented"? -- subjective
They still have a lot of work to do to be the most accomplished... Throw OP under the bus all you want... but his 3 year run was pretty remarkable..
This team is good, and appears to be over the mental hurdles that plagued so many of our teams... but it's a long season...
just win
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All-In [44048]
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So asking subjective questions isn't allowed?
Jan 6, 2018, 5:21 PM
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Good to know. Please tell Crump and B-Meist so they can delete 95% of the posts here.
Until then, your reference to this team being the most accomplished is pointless. I mentioned previous teams' accomplishments for a frame of reference, but the point of the post is to discuss overall talent level.
And despite my disclaimer that the season is not halfway through, and that we are early in the conference slate, you still had to throw in the fact that "it's a long season." Why?!?
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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are your feelings hurt?
Jan 6, 2018, 5:29 PM
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I stated that your question was subjective, and not really measurable... "most accomplished" is not subjective...
it is a long season, and my mantra is the same... "just win"
sorry you took so much offense to a non-offensive post... maybe the mods can get you a tissue?
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Legend [16136]
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Would you rather him welsh on a bet?***
Jan 6, 2018, 5:32 PM
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All-In [44048]
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I'm not offended at all, just amazed by your ADD.
Jan 6, 2018, 5:35 PM
[ in reply to are your feelings hurt? ] |
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You took a post concerning the talent level of this year's team from top-to-bottom, ignored the topic completely because it's "subjective," and proceeded to focus on pointless sayings like "it's a young season," "just win," etc.
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Legend [16136]
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I'm amazed he has the gall to call other people out after
Jan 6, 2018, 5:37 PM
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his Big 12 stunt and the bet welshing
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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All-In [44048]
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It's in my previous post.
Jan 6, 2018, 5:39 PM
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I'm not reposting it again, nor am I going to try again. I can tell it won't matter.
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Legend [16136]
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Legend [16136]
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CU Guru [1241]
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Re: Is this our most talented basketball team ever?
Jan 6, 2018, 5:05 PM
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a very good team.but the team that had tree, skip wise, colon abraham, stan rome.. had the best collection of players IMO.
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All-In [44048]
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I agree, that was a very talented team.
Jan 6, 2018, 5:21 PM
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I shouldn't have left that one out.
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All-TigerNet [10469]
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No, and it's not even close
Jan 6, 2018, 5:07 PM
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Locke's team of Wise, Rollins, Croft, Abraham and others was far more talented.
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All-In [44048]
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Before my time, but from what I've heard and read
Jan 6, 2018, 5:22 PM
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that team was outstanding.
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All-TigerNet [10469]
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Re: Before my time, but from what I've heard and read
Jan 6, 2018, 5:25 PM
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Tate's Locke was a defensive coach and a control freak. If he had turned those guys loose, we might well have won it all.
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Orange Blooded [2663]
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i'd say the dale davis/elden campbell team.
Jan 6, 2018, 5:09 PM
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though as I remember, that was the team that often required team members to get coked up at half-time to come back from big first-half deficits. Or maybe that was later. Was that the Marion Cash years?
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110%er [7114]
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Agreed - late '80s teams were the best
Jan 6, 2018, 5:16 PM
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Campbell, Davis, Forrest, Cash and Howling. That team would have been in the Final Four if not for a crazy Tate George shot with .00001 seconds to go.
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All-TigerNet [10824]
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Re: Agreed - late '80s teams were the best
Jan 6, 2018, 5:22 PM
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Still trying to figure out how they let UCONN inbounds a long pass and take a shot, almost uncontested.
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All-In [44048]
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110%er [7114]
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Were you even alive then?
Jan 6, 2018, 5:31 PM
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Did you ever see that team play?
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All-In [44048]
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Yes, I was alive then and yes I watched that team play.
Jan 6, 2018, 5:37 PM
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I agree that it is one of our most talented ever. Perhaps the most talented.
I'm not discounting that team at all. Why do you think I am?
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110%er [7114]
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Because your only comment about them had nothing to do with
Jan 6, 2018, 6:31 PM
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how good they were or what they accomplished. I was there when we beat Duke in the last regular season game to win the regular season ACC championship. I waited outside Littlejohn on a cold night for a little yellow slip of paper they handed out to students for SRO admission. It was during finals in my senior year, and I brought my books with me to study while I waited in line. I watched that team beat Duke and UNC a couple of times at Littlejohn during my time there. That's what I remember... not that the wins were vacated for whatever reason.
This year's team has done quite well so far and I'm very encouraged... but we're a LONG way from being able to compare this team to the best Clemson teams in history. To do that now is absurd. It's silly. We had a nice run at the beginning of conference play last season too. Let's see how it plays out.
Message was edited by: Flying Tiger®
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All-In [44048]
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Actually, my original post commented on that team
Jan 6, 2018, 6:37 PM
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including some of that team's best players, the overall record, the conference record, and the NCAA Tournament that year.
I don't think it is premature after 14 games this season to form opinions about the talent level on our team. Obviously we won't know how successful this team is until the season is over, but their talent and skill levels aren't likely to change much over the next couple of months.
If you don't want to have the discussion, then you are welcome to read another thread. I think it's worth having now, with the understanding that the success of this team is to be determined (that's why I posted the disclaimer at the end of my original post, which you must've missed).
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110%er [7114]
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No, I didn't read your initial post...
Jan 6, 2018, 6:49 PM
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because at this point, in my opinion that's a ridiculous question. Evaluating the overall talent of a TEAM can only be done by evaluating the success of that team. And if a team underachieves in comparison to its aggregate talent level, there's only one thing to blame - coaching. If you're right, and this is one of the most talented teams in Clemson history, then it needs to translate to success in the regular season and in the post season. And if not, well... remember Cliff Ellis? He achieved FAR more than CBB has, and he got fired at CLEMSON, not exactly known as a dynastic basketball powerhouse program.
Again, I'm glad to see this team doing well... but they haven't achieved much yet. We're fixin' to find out how good they are.
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110%er [8095]
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76-77 team was the best: Tree Rollins, Stan Rome, Colon
Jan 6, 2018, 5:14 PM
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Abraham, Greg Coles, David Brown, Chubby Wells, Derrick Johnson and a young Bobby Conrad.
AND if they had Skip Wise, they would have been GREAT!
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CU Medallion [58414]
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Depends on how you define "most talented".
Jan 6, 2018, 5:16 PM
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We have definitely had teams in the past that had 2 or 3 players that were more talented than any single player we have now, but we were almost totally dependent upon those 2 or 3. Today, we may not have a Skip Wise/Stan Rome, Elden Campbell/Dale Davis, Larry Nance, Horace Grant, Trevor Booker, etc..., but I would say our top 10 players, collectively, may be better than any two deep we've ever had.
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All-In [44048]
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That is my thought as well.***
Jan 6, 2018, 5:24 PM
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Orange Blooded [4095]
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Re: Depends on how you define "most talented".
Jan 6, 2018, 5:34 PM
[ in reply to Depends on how you define "most talented". ] |
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I kind of agree.
What I want to see is, hopefully after making the NCAA tournament this year, can the team sustain the success next year.
It's not just playing at a high level. It's building a program and staying there.
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Orange Blooded [4142]
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Re: Is this our most talented basketball team ever?
Jan 6, 2018, 5:25 PM
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Lets just hope we make it to the Final Four for the first time .
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Legend [16136]
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The 08 team was pretty impressive...How we blew that NCAAT
Jan 6, 2018, 5:28 PM
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game is still beyond comprehension
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All-In [44048]
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That team was a huge disappointment.
Jan 6, 2018, 5:40 PM
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I thought it was surely the year OP got his first NCAA Tournament win, and possibly more.
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Legend [16136]
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Undoubtedly, but it might have been our most talented from
Jan 6, 2018, 5:45 PM
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top to bottom
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All-In [44048]
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That team can definitely make a very good case for being
Jan 6, 2018, 6:39 PM
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the most talented from top to bottom. That team, the 89-90 team, and this year's team would be my top 3.
From what I've read, the 74-75 team is certainly in the conversation as well.
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All-TigerNet [12943]
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I don't know if they were a huge disappointment
Jan 6, 2018, 5:50 PM
[ in reply to That team was a huge disappointment. ] |
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The NCAA game was a huge disappointment for sure...
but if you measure the team and season as a whole, it was pretty good.... Impressive run to the ACCTCG
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Legend [16136]
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I hear you, but whenever I think of that season, all I can
Jan 6, 2018, 6:05 PM
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think of is the leads we blew to UNC twice and the HUGE lead we blew in the 2nd half on the 1st round game...We should have broken the Chapel Hill streak that year and I can taste the bile just thinking about it
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Legend [16255]
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It's a very complementary squad throughout on the talent
Jan 6, 2018, 6:03 PM
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front - lots of overlap. Outstanding depth. Solid freshman minutes. And truly legit production from our starting 5 guys. Thomas is starting to rival my memories of Horace Grant on the effectiveness level on offense, with what is looking like even better defense. Grantham so far this season is playing like he crashed through a ceiling during the offseason and is skybound. Maybe not the best collection of guards ever, but the best in my memory of mixing a wide depth of skills and aggressiveness on both sides of the ball.
Go Tigers.
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Legend [16136]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 26438
Joined: 11/18/03
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I LOVE Eli, but don't compare him to Ho, it's not even close***
Jan 6, 2018, 6:06 PM
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Legend [16255]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12783
Joined: 11/14/09
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I wouldn't have believed that either but Eli has really
Jan 6, 2018, 6:16 PM
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developed his touch - over 60% still in FG, he's showing good receiving hands, and he dishes well. Horace has been my fave forever, but IMO Eli is starting to show something special.
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All-In [27366]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 26233
Joined: 9/19/11
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It's probably one of the most talented to
Jan 6, 2018, 7:01 PM
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NOT have a super star like Rollins, Davis, Nance, etc...
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Trainer [28]
TigerPulse: 73%
Posts: 81
Joined: 9/27/09
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Re: It's probably one of the most talented to
Jan 7, 2018, 6:28 AM
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The 3 players I remember loving to watch and there was a kid David Schaffer who transferred out as a soph I think who I thought was good
Murray Jarmin a walk on
Elden Campbell
Tree Rollins
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