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Legend [15863]
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How does ACC admit fault by suspending officials
Nov 1, 2015, 11:17 PM
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without reversing the outcome of the game ???
This makes no sense
This procedure - taints the fairness of the game. The game should reflect that Duke won.
I just don't understand this at all.
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Orange Blooded [3523]
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I agree.
Nov 1, 2015, 11:19 PM
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If officials are suspended for fubaring the last call of the game, which decided the outcome, the play is null. Game goes to Duke.
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Hall of Famer [24477]
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My first tendency was to agree with that idea, but
Nov 2, 2015, 12:04 AM
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at some point a game has to be over. There are many who think some judgement calls should be reviewable, like whether a player was or was not lined up off sides. Pass interference is another one that gets missed and can be corrected via video. Do we implement those, then overturn a game 3 days later?
Besides, I think we are too far past the amateur ideal already. Its a game. In the end, there are 4 or 5 things more important than the final score created by the contest. Its already become about money to a sickening degree, and success is defined as 10 wins and nothing else. An 11 game winner dodging the NCAA will be defended. An 8 game winner producing Rhodes Scholars will be gone. I know we are already over that ###, but i would like to stop it at changing game outcomes days later.
I liked it better with no review. If its close enough to not call its close enough to have happened as it appeared at full speed. Deal with it and play on.
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CU Guru [1996]
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Why is this such a difficult idea to grasp?
Nov 2, 2015, 12:16 AM
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You cannot reverse the outcome of a game.
If the an official's judgement is called into question, then you have to assume every call they made could have been wrong. So are you now going to go back throughout the game, review every call ever official made during the game, and then make a judgement call as to what should have happened? Do you assume that if a holding or pass interference call made in the 1st quarter doesn't effect any play going forward?
The NCAA vacated Georgia Tech's 2009 ACC Championship game win but they didn't go back and retroactively give the win to Clemson because we happened to be the next in line. You know why? Same reason. When the game was over, Georgia Tech beat Clemson under the circumstances given. You can't randomly pick and choose what you think may have happened after the fact taking out whichever variable you like.
You never have been and you never will be able to reverse the outcome of a game once it's over. Is it really that hard?
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Legend [16902]
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Re: Why is this such a difficult idea to grasp?
Nov 2, 2015, 6:17 AM
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Because it isn't true. In 1940 Dartmouth was retroactively handed a win after a game winning / game ending touchdown by Cornell was revealed to have occurred on a 5th down and that the play should have never happened. As recently as 2011 the Pac 12 changed the score of a game after the game was completed.
Clemson can't be named champion for the 2008 season because Clemson didn't win the game. They are losing their title for NCAA violations - not anything that had to do wth their play on the field. There is absolutely no way to reconstruct what would have happened in 2008-09 if Georgia Tech had fielded a complaint team or not been allowed to compete.
However we know exactly what the outcome of the Duke / Miami game would be if the referees upon review had made the proper call. If they had properly reviewed that the Miami player is down then the game was over. There is no difference making this call 5 minutes after the game has ended "in review" or correcting the egregiously bad work of the review official hours later. The field refs can be excused from missing that his knee was all the way down. The replay official can't and should never be allowed to work professionally as a sports official again. A two game suspension for his mistake begs too many questions of impropriety and should simply be unacceptable. Unfortunately the ACC is a clown-conference and is merely paying lip service to the incident and has demonstrated for more than a decade now that their pitiful standing nationally is of no genuine concern to the highest paid conference commissioner in the business.
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CU Medallion [53769]
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Colorado won a national championship as the result of being
Nov 2, 2015, 7:58 AM
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given a 5th down....in a prior game.
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Legend [16902]
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Re: Colorado won a national championship as the result of being
Nov 2, 2015, 8:31 AM
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Did it happen on the last play of the game so that the ensuing results are indisputable?
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Hall of Famer [23693]
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It was on the last play of the game against Missouri.
Nov 2, 2015, 9:03 AM
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Was the difference in the game.
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Legend [16902]
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Re: It was on the last play of the game against Missouri.
Nov 2, 2015, 9:14 AM
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Just to play Devils advocate, after reviewing that game, had the officials not erred then Missouri would have been given the ball with a few seconds on the clock. That would have left a myriad of unlikely but still possible events that could have transpired. To me the Miami/Duke game is very unique in that the error occurs after time has expired and if properly ruled there are no further possible outcomes.
Message was edited by: viztiz®
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All-American [557]
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big money layed off on some of these games,RooF,notanoption****
Nov 2, 2015, 12:37 AM
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All-Conference [444]
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Game officials/referee's being reprimanded and/or suspended
Nov 2, 2015, 1:11 AM
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happens more often than you might think. None of those slaps on the wrist have ever changed the outcome of an event after the fact. This is the way it should be, that is the way it will always be. We do not want our football, basketball, & baseball culture to go the way of NASCAR do we?
The games would be more enjoyable without the existence of plays being reviewed & the countless minutes of time outs for advertising breaks. It's hard to believe players can get tired in todays basketball play with the # of timeouts that are given during the course of a game. This very subject is one that is talked about as being a major reason baseball ratings cannot make a comeback because of the time taken off between innings. Ok, off topic so enough.
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All-TigerNet [12246]
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Re: How does ACC admit fault by suspending officials
Nov 2, 2015, 2:08 AM
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Got to agree with those that say we should not reverse the outcome of the game. Besides the reasons already given - could you imagine how it would screw up the odds makers/bookies, fantasy leagues, and gambling consumers if an outcome is changed 3 days after the game is over? I don't participate in such gambling activities but this would introduce a whole new level of potential fraud into an already imperfect system.
As unfair as the final outcome to the Duke vs Miami game may seem, it should be left as is - a Miami win. At the end of the day it is just a game and no one is going to live or die because Duke was deemed the loser at the end of the contest.
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Orange Blooded [3968]
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At the very least the game should be wiped off both team's records...
Nov 2, 2015, 3:38 AM
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No need in penalizing either team as the fault lays solely on the refs.
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110%er [9889]
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You can't change the outcome of a game once it is over
Nov 2, 2015, 4:47 AM
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That sets a crazy precedence.
Regardless of replay, etc....the game of football (and all sports) has a margin of error with the players and with the officials. They are all human beings and will make mistakes.
You can't get into a business of going back on a Sunday and looking over film to find errors and change outcomes of games.
The unique part of this error is that it was on the last play of the game. Regardless, they ruled the play as they did after the review (and it is obvious they messed up) and the game became official and final.
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Orange Blooded [2420]
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Re: You can't change the outcome of a game once it is over
Nov 2, 2015, 6:35 AM
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They did change the outcome they picked up the flag.
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Heisman Winner [139931]
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That had nothing to do with the review. The review was to
Nov 2, 2015, 6:44 AM
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determine if the Miami player was down.
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Legend [16902]
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Re: That had nothing to do with the review. The review was to
Nov 2, 2015, 7:10 AM
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Yes, after completion of play was over and zero on the clock they reviewed a play - whether the Miami player put his knee down - that would have reversed the outcome of the result on the field. The replay official made the wrong call. What's the difference in an official making a game altering call 5 minutes after time has expired, two hours later, or the next morning when someone not on the take reverses any obviously incorrect call. There are no further disputed variables if you make the proper ruling. The lack of definitiveness in final outcome after reversing most blown calls is why it doesn't happen more. And that's why when there is no dispute as to what the outcome would have been i.e USC v Utah 2011 and Darmouth v. Cornell 1940 you do make the change.
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Heisman Winner [139931]
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The problem is, you can't pick and choose which wrong call
Nov 2, 2015, 8:11 AM
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you want to overturn as they each affect the outcome differently. If the correct block in the back call had been made at the 16, which was the first missed call, Miami would have been penalized half the distance to the goal and had one untimed down. The likelihood of Miami scoring would have been very, very low, but we'll never know b/c they would have been negated the opportunity. The Miami player's knee being down would have been after the flag, and thus, would have been inconsequential.
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Legend [16902]
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Re: The problem is, you can't pick and choose which wrong call
Nov 2, 2015, 8:44 AM
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Actually, by rule the block in the back is not reviewable. The knee being down was reviewable. IF a flag had been thrown and the knee has correctly called then Duke could simply decline the penalty.
The thing that makes the whole scenario so egregious to me is that supposedly whether the knee was down was reviewed. There is no way anyone actually reviewed the tape and thought he wasn't down. The replay official either reviewed the wrong aspect of the play which would mean he lacks a basic understanding of the rules and of his responsibilities, didn't actually review anything and just opted to let the play stand and pretend he reviewed it, or had a vested interest in the outcome (which I consider least likely). What is not possible is that he actually saw the Miami player touch the ground and imagine daylight between his knee and the ground - because it did not exist. It was indisputable enough for the league to issue the biggest public sanction I ever recall the ACC issuing. But this kind of gross negligence deserves more than a suspension - that official should never work again. Period. And the degree of the negligence and the timing of the play create the extraordinarily rare circumstance I believe warrants changing the outcome.
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Heisman Winner [139931]
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You are incorrect, according to the ACC...
Nov 2, 2015, 9:45 AM
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You can read the list of errors the league acknowledged here. Note the missed block in the back, and the correct penalty for the foul.
http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/ACC-Suspends-Referees-After-Miami-Duke-Game-339165122.html
A few other points...
1) I never said the block in the back was reviewable, in fact I said it was not in question during the review.
2) The first missed call was the block in the back, which would have resulted in an untimed down for Miami.
3) Anything that happened, regarding a player being down, after the flag at the 16 would not have mattered.
4) I agree the knee was down. I agree they missed several penalties. I agree Duke got hosed. I disagree that the game should be reversed because... Miami was not given the opportunity they deserved if the proper call was made. If correctly called, the outcome would have still been in doubt even though the clock read 00.00.
Your issue with whether or not Miami should have had an untimed down would be better directed toward the ACC, not me. You are arguing like this is my opinion, when it's the league's.
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Legend [16902]
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Re: You are incorrect, according to the ACC...
Nov 2, 2015, 1:02 PM
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There is nothing in that link that says Miami would have been entitled to an untimed down. So at this point this is strictly a matter of clarifying the rules as they should have been enforced. We both agree that illegal blocking could and should have been called. But the presence or absence of the call doesn't change anything about how things should have proceeded. Even if they threw those flags you wouldn't stop play. Are you saying that Duke would not have the opportunity to decline a penalty on Miami in that situation? Not trying to be curt - I would assume they would but you seem to think that Miami would have received a free play for sure. Additionally, I think Miami might have been subject to a 10 second run-off for a penalty in that situation if it were applied though the rule doesn't speak specifically to special teams play. My only point, and I continue to stand by it, is that nothing about the outcome would change if A)flags were thrown or B) the runner was ruled down. Both would result in Miami losing. A) Duke declines penalty - time has expired game over. B) the runner is down, time is out, game is over. This is entirely rhetorical. Obviously the league has done what they are going to do. But, despite many peoples insistence otherwise, game outcomes have been changed after the fact and this is a case where they could have chosen to do so. It's great big mystery why they went this route instead.
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Heisman Winner [139931]
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Wrong again... It does say that. I've cut and pasted it for you...
Nov 2, 2015, 3:15 PM
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"— The on-field officials should have flagged Miami defensive back Sheldrick Redwine for his block to the back on Philip Carter at the Miami 16-yard line, and the ball should have been placed at the Miami 8 with an untimed down awarded to the Hurricanes."
Feel free to reread the article.
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Heisman Winner [139931]
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Again, I'm not trying to argue with you,
Nov 2, 2015, 3:29 PM
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simply pointing out how the game should have ended, per the ACC.
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Legend [16902]
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Re: Again, I'm not trying to argue with you,
Nov 2, 2015, 5:44 PM
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Obviously skimmed it too fast. But purely for the sake of discussion, why would Duke have to accept the penalty. If the knee wasn't verified on review then no, they would want to accept the penalty; otherwise, the result of the play is a touchdown. And then I would agree you can't change the outcome because you have no idea what happens. But they're pointing out two unrelated incidents on the same play. But - by rule - fouls are not reviewable. So obviously they feel the oversight was bad enough to be punished but nothing within the rules allows for redress of what happened on the field with regards to the blocking fouls. The rules specifically do allow review of whether the players knee touched. It's indisputable. So, given that the play is reviewable what does it matter what time table is allowed to get it right when the net result if applied properly only allows one outcome. So, I'm back to would Duke have been unable to decline the penalty. The supposition of Miami having an untimed down appears to me predicated on the notion of the offense occurring without regard for any other aspect of the play. Had the play been whistled dead where the players knee touched - even if the flag was thrown or even allowed to be included in review - Duke would decline the penalty and the game would end where the Miami player touched the ground.
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Legend [16902]
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Oculus Spirit [93661]
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How old are you?
Nov 2, 2015, 4:49 AM
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Then you should know better.
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Varsity [247]
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Re: How old are you?
Nov 2, 2015, 5:24 AM
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The one good thing to come out of this is that we don't have to worry about having these refs for our FSU game!
TOL
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Heisman Winner [139931]
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Reversing outcomes is a door that we probably
Nov 2, 2015, 6:40 AM
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shouldn't open. Punish those responsible for blowing the calls and move on. It sucks when it happens, I hate it for Duke.
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MVP [531]
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Re: Reversing outcomes is a door that we probably
Nov 2, 2015, 6:55 AM
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I don't.
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Starter [351]
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Any bad call can change the eventual outcome of a Game.
Nov 2, 2015, 7:10 AM
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Human errors (Refs and players) have always been a part of Sports. Now you have instant replay to highlight those errors. At least they reverse some of those Ref human errors.
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CU Medallion [60216]
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I just have to assume you just started watching sports
Nov 2, 2015, 8:02 AM
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Refs have been screwing up since the beginning of time.
Conferences (leagues, associations, etc.) have been issuing apologies for referees mistakes since the day after the beginning of time.
The outcome of not one game has ever been"reversed".
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Legend [16902]
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Re: I just have to assume you just started watching sports
Nov 2, 2015, 8:49 AM
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Simply not true. Pac 12 did it just 4 years ago.
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Trainer [47]
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Re: I just have to assume you just started watching sports
Nov 2, 2015, 9:11 AM
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I will never shed a tear for a Duke getting shafted by the refs at the end of the game. I call it karma.
http://www.statefansnation.com/2007/01/refs-blatantly-steal-game-from-clemson/
The loss doesn't even really mean anything. They still control their own destiny to make the ACC championship game. They were already out of the playoff picture because of their embarrassing loss to Northwestern at home.
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Legend [16902]
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Re: I just have to assume you just started watching sports
Nov 2, 2015, 9:18 AM
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Honestly - I don't care whether they reverse the game but most people argue its "never been" and "can't be" done when it has and it can. I'm far more concerned that that replay official ever work another game. You really want him in the booth if we play UNC in an ACC championship game with Swofford in his earpiece? He clearly is willing to rule with total disregard for what is appearing on his monitor and he'll be eligible to work that game.
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Trainer [47]
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Re: I just have to assume you just started watching sports
Nov 2, 2015, 9:55 AM
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They got suspended for 2 games they won't be reffing the ACC championship game.
Duke is still in the championship game if they win out.
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110%er [5508]
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Legend [16902]
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Re: "Reversed?" No they didn't***
Nov 3, 2015, 12:31 AM
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They changed the final score of the game 2 hours after the game was completed. Whether or not the winner changed should really be irrelevant. It's okay to change the score after the fact as long as it doesn't affect the outcome? That's lunacy. And, Darmouth Cornell 1940 is known to be the only game where they actual victory changed hands after the fact. But it has happened.
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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the final score was what it should have been as determined
Nov 3, 2015, 7:49 AM
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on the field, the break down was a communication issue as to how the scoreboard reflected the call that took place where it should.
cornell offered a forfeit, dartmouth accepted.
miami's not offering a forfeit and there's no reason to believe the rules that govern the game[ncaa or acc] would record the game outcome differently even if the forfeit had been offered...
it's done and should be.
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Legend [16902]
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Re: the final score was what it should have been as determined
Nov 3, 2015, 5:46 PM
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Fair point, but the permanent record reflects the altered final score in the Dartmouth / Cornell game. It doesn't simply state Win by forfeit.
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Hall of Famer [24753]
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"Just DO it and we'll make an apology later." Swoffie....
Nov 2, 2015, 9:19 AM
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during the 9 minute 'conference call'.
Message was edited by: SOLOS®
Message was edited by: SOLOS®
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50
http://www.cutigers.com/2009/football/virginia/slides/_KWB7614a.jpg
