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All-In [44043]
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Are we supposed to feel sorry for college football players?
Jul 19, 2013, 9:37 AM
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Because I don't. I'm talking about the ones who play big time college football and are complaining about being taken advantage of by the NCAA. Waaahh!
These guys were pretty much all superstars in high school, and were coddled there. They go through the recruiting process, and are made to feel so important, enjoy their "fame" via Twitter and Facebook posts, and have press conferences covered by the media. They already have people, including grown adults, telling them how wonderful they are all the time. Everyone wants to be their friend, girls want to date them, and people keep up with their every move. They are celebrities, and almost all of them enjoy it.
Then, they arrive to college, and get the following from the school:
-Special dining hall just for athletes
-Personalized nutrition programs from athletic department nutritionists
-Personalized weightlifting program from athletic department strength coaches
-Workout clothing and equipment provided
-Free medical care
-Access to rehab facilities, physical therapists, athletic trainers, etc.
-Nice housing, even as freshmen
-The opportunity to do something they love (play football), on a big time stage
Oh yes, and a FREE education! Not to mention free academic tutors to go along with it. Their academic schedules are arranged for them by staff. They even get a ride to class on a golf cart if they are injured.
Yes, they work their tails off. They do two-a-days in the August heat. They are really busy, with early morning practices and weight training sessions. The demands on their time are great. But they get everything provided for them, they get a free education, and they get to do something they love. And to be honest, many of them wouldn't even be going to college if not for their athletic talents - especially not a school with Clemson's academic standards.
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CU Medallion [64589]
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As a former student-athlete at Clemson....
Jul 19, 2013, 9:42 AM
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I can tell you from direct first hand experience, scholarships (even full scholarships) do not cover all the costs or expenses associated with being a typical college student and if you think they do, you are either incredibly naive or terribly misinformed.
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CU Medallion [73569]
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I was one as well and I dont think they should
Jul 19, 2013, 9:44 AM
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Everything else is paid for, why should they pay for you to go to Chili's on date night or drinking or going to the movies.
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Orange Blooded [3881]
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scholarship=free ride.....not***
Jul 19, 2013, 11:46 AM
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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xtiger has finally topped himself, claiming to be a former..
Jul 19, 2013, 12:13 PM
[ in reply to I was one as well and I dont think they should ] |
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student athlete at Clemson. What a joke. Sorry, I didn't know internet message board troll was a sport.
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110%er [9093]
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I can confirm that x is a former student athlete
Jul 19, 2013, 12:21 PM
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and a lifelong member of the lunge 
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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Unfortunately this is what most people think
Jul 19, 2013, 9:45 AM
[ in reply to As a former student-athlete at Clemson.... ] |
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Again, I believe this attitude comes from people who don't realize how much work is put into getting a full scholarship.
It's kind of like a person who makes $50,000 a year and is jealous or spiteful towards a person who makes $150,000 per year without knowing how much work that person puts in to make more money.
It is extremely difficult to be a scholarship athlete. And in my opinion, to say they get a free education is absolutely ridiculous.
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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i look at the value, plenty of information out there
Jul 19, 2013, 10:24 AM
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to support what a D1 scholarship is worth. the choice is 4-5 years or more of debt if the money wasn't afforded freely to offset the costs these scholarships do.
the ncaa has over time limited the hours; it's still a lot, but college is a learning experience & to suggest they don't have real choices by exclusion is absurd; it should be comparative in the very least. if thousands upon thousands of kids couldn't reasonably accomplish this over the years, it wouldn't be done. they are afforded huge amounts of soft cost support including vickery et al.
there are plenty of jobs available to hs grads. the world needs ditch diggers too.
i don't think the choices will change until the benefit is outweighed by other opportunities. i really don't see that happening in my lifetime.
would be interesting where everyone falls on this issue of time/value that also wanted more than 11 games a year & a playoff.
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Standout [313]
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Re: Unfortunately this is what most people think
Jul 19, 2013, 11:38 AM
[ in reply to Unfortunately this is what most people think ] |
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We can sit around here all we want and try to figure out ways that the arrangement that exists is somehow fair when compared to regular employment, but we'll never be able to say that because the system that exists is monopolistic to its core.
Unlike normal employees in the marketplace, college football players are denied the ability to negotiate the compensation for their services. Some argue that if these players don't like it then they don't have to play. Well, imagine someone told you something similar regarding your profession. Imagine that all of your potential employers banded together and said you have to work at a low wage for a number of years before they would even consider employing you. That kind of arrangement would be patently illegal as an unfair restraint on trade.
This is more or less the same arrangement that the NFL has entered into with colleges and universities. The NFL uses colleges as a kind of developmental league that they do not have to pay for (unlike MLB). The colleges get a bunch of free labor (yeah, I know about tuition, more on that in a bit), free advertising generated by their team's performance, tons of money in merchandising and licensing fees, and plenty of other benefits that are worth billions of dollars annually. Sure, the players aren't the only source of that revenue. Plenty of sports fans would go to games, watch tv games, and buy merchandise for their teams no matter how badly the team played, but I think we all know that the quality of the sports product put on the field makes a serious difference in terms of revenue generated. Imagine if all the best players went straight into professional football and D1 schools fielded teams akin to D2 teams.
As for tuition, there's no way that it amounts to fair compensation. To understand the kind of money we are talking about, take a look at just the ticket receipts for one game. Let's say Clemson sells 70,000 tickets (after removing 10k or so for student tickets) at $50 each. That's $3.5 Million in revenue. If we divided that among, let's say 100 players that would be $35,000 each. Once again, we're not considering all kinds of other revenue generated by an individual game. We're also not considering that Clemson has 7 home games per year, makes tons of money off of TV rights and merchandising.
Now let's also consider the inherent risks of playing college football. First, it's extremely unlikely that you will ever play professional football . Even if you do play professional football, the average time in the league is 3 years, and you're likely to only receive the league minimum, which averages $550 for 1st through 3rd year players. That doesn't take into account training costs, agent fees, costs of maintaining multiple homes, etc. You're probably only going to get about 1 Million at most out of those three years. I know that's a lot of money in the abstract, but it's not it's the giant pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Second, you could get injured while playing in college. You might suffer life long consequences from that injury. Maybe you won't be able to work anymore. Maybe you'll start suffering from dementia in your 40's from all the hits you took to the head.
Oh, and also, the teams don't guarantee that you'll actually keep your scholarship for all four years. You might only get one free year.
Now think about all of this and imagine a world where this wasn't the way things were. Imagine you were an outstanding high school player and you were now negotiating with colleges regarding which one would obtain your services. Knowing the amount of benefit your superior play could afford to that college, would you sit back and accept a full scholarship as compensation for playing for that school for four years. Even if you would actually accept those terms, wouldn't it be better if you were allowed the opportunity to negotiate for those terms?
I don't know about you, but I wouldn't take those kinds of risks for the small chance that I might someday make a couple millions dollars. If I had kids I wouldn't encourage them to take such risks either.
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Orange Blooded [3881]
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your argument is flawed! Let's start with the 1st paragraph
Jul 19, 2013, 12:14 PM
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the recruitment process is the negotiation perod where you decide which university will provide you with a) a more valuable degree and/or b) a better chance to pursue a professional career. In the 3rd paragraph, you failed to take into account how much the university pays OUT in order to even play a game of football i.e. stadium construction, coaches salary, gameday officials, concessions, etc., etc., etc., etc.. In your 4th paragraph though, you want to figure in all of the personal "luxuries" that players spend their money on and take that right off the top.....really! There are more flaws but I believe that I've proven my point that your argument is flawed. This is just my opinion though. It seems that we have a subject that both sides feel strongly about. I can't wait until August 31st---GO TIGERS!!
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All-In [44043]
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They are allowed to get jobs, which I realize are limited
Jul 19, 2013, 9:49 AM
[ in reply to As a former student-athlete at Clemson.... ] |
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regarding what is allowed. I know that there is a cap on how much money they can earn. But it's something.
If that's not enough, a stipend makes sense. But then it gets complicated, because how much is a reasonable stipend and who gets it? Everyone? Or just football players?
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All-In [44043]
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Plus, can they not apply for financial aid?!?
Jul 19, 2013, 9:56 AM
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Many students take out student loans to pay for expenses. Can athletes not do this also?
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CU Medallion [64589]
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Yes...there are some need-based options available.***
Jul 19, 2013, 9:59 AM
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CU Medallion [64589]
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Getting a job really isn't a realistic option....
Jul 19, 2013, 9:58 AM
[ in reply to They are allowed to get jobs, which I realize are limited ] |
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Even during the off-season, you're spending a significant amount of time conditioning and training. When you commit to play a sport for a school, it's pretty much a 365 day per year commitment. There really is no down time which makes getting a job pretty dang near impossible.
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CU Medallion [73569]
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i had a job during the summer
Jul 19, 2013, 10:00 AM
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all the while doing workouts 4-5 hours a day. it paid all my extra living expenses for the year.
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CU Medallion [64589]
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So did I....
Jul 19, 2013, 10:28 AM
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but between conditioning, summer school, and two-a-days which usually started in late July, there wasn't alot of time left in the day (not to mention energy) for work.
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Oculus Spirit [81897]
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CU Medallion [64589]
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Yes...I played soccer.***
Jul 19, 2013, 10:41 AM
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110%er [9664]
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I'm curious - what other expenses are you referring to?
Jul 19, 2013, 11:53 AM
[ in reply to As a former student-athlete at Clemson.... ] |
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Doesn't a full football scholarship cover tuition, housing, books, and food?
With that paid for - most families can easily afford whatever extra expenses you're talking about. And if they can't - the guys have PELL grants available. That's several thousand dollars a year.
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Starter [390]
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CU Medallion [73569]
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I don't at all
Jul 19, 2013, 9:43 AM
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but I do feel this case has legs. It's one thing to put generic looking players in a game but when you start making them look like the real players, then I think that's wrong.
Even though jerseys have no names on them, just have the number say of Sammy makes a ton of money for Clemson. They weren't selling that number before he came along. We all know they are making money off of him.
With that said, no way should college players get paid just for playing but examples like above I think are wrong.
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CU Medallion [64589]
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I'm not sure how much of a case they do have.....
Jul 19, 2013, 9:53 AM
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When a player agrees to accept an athletic scholarship, there are provisions that give the University and the NCAA the right to use the players names, likenesses and images. The NCAA then sold that right to EA Sports.
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CU Guru [1328]
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I think this is where the gray area comes in....
Jul 19, 2013, 10:29 AM
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And to me it relates a lot to the recent EA Sports deal...here's my example: I play in a few golf tournaments each year around the Carolinas area. I'm lucky enough to also have an agreement with an equipment company that provides me with clubs, golf balls, etc. When I enter these tournaments, there's always some info on the entry form about using my image in marketing/promo materials, write-ups on the tournament, etc. If they want to put a picture of me hitting a shot in their monthly magazine they can (in most cases it would be how NOT to hit a particular shot  ) they have that right. The same type of provision is made in the contract I signed with the equipment manufacturer. However, if either the tournament, or the manufacturer then turns around and sells the rights to use my likeness to a third party without my consent or with me receiving no compensation, that is not legal.
To me this is basically what has happened with college athletics. The NCAA has turned around and sold the rights to use players' images and likenesses to a third-party company, in this case the EA Sports video game. I don't think it's a coincidence that EA Sports did not renew their deal with the NCAA moving forward. I also wouldn't be surprised in the next few years to see apparel manufacturers not be able to use numbers of current players on college rosters. Or possibly have to use a generic number for all schools, such as double-zero or something like that.
I could actually see the day when something like this happens: Say you have a Sammy Watkins type player who is very marketable from an athletic standpoint. What if Sammy paid his entire way through school, declined through some legal channels to be used in any way, shape, or form in any type of promotional materials through the university (doesn't appear in commercials, or on program covers or tickets), and then markets himself. He could pay his way through school with the money he makes (off of himself mind you), and not be held to the same "well he gets a free education/room and board/equipment" argument. He is receiving nothing free from the school, is paying his way, but can market himself as he sees fit.
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All-In [29036]
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Good points
Jul 19, 2013, 11:55 AM
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And those agreements you sign/agree to as to the use of your likeness will (should) have specific granting of the license for specific purposes. Some of those granting of rights do allow for their use in outside projects. That's the legal question here, and I actually find it interesting.
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All-In [44043]
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I think it probably has legs too.
Jul 19, 2013, 9:54 AM
[ in reply to I don't at all ] |
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I don't know what the solution is. But I don't feel sorry for these guys, everything considered.
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All-In [29036]
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I'd argue the players have no rights to their number
Jul 19, 2013, 11:52 AM
[ in reply to I don't at all ] |
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Nor their position.
But, the description of their skills, their general appearance, size, weight, etc, may rise to the level of being considered their likeness.
But thats a legal question. And I don't find the players greedy for wanting it to be answered, even though they may well have signed away those rights via their scholarship agreement (another legal question).
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Legend [19586]
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Re: Are we supposed to feel sorry for college football players?
Jul 19, 2013, 9:45 AM
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And is that stuff worth millions of dollars?
"Hey sir if you make me millions of dollars i'll give you a free education, a few meals and some bus rides. deal?"
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Orange Blooded [3881]
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Hey-----the owners of my company make millions and I agreed
Jul 19, 2013, 11:45 AM
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to work for them for a certain price. If my work makes their product more valuable, can I sue them for not giving me more than what I agreed to?
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Legend [19610]
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Re: Are we supposed to feel sorry for college football players?
Jul 19, 2013, 9:45 AM
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I am generally with you, but I do understand their complaint that they have to give up a great deal of liberty with the choice to play ball.
Can they take a girl to the dinig hall on a date? Can they fill up the tank with the workout clothing?
They do need a stipend or a relaxing of certain rules in order for them to make a few bucks.
A lawsuit over likeness in a video game is just a stupid way to go about it.
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All-In [40656]
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These guys live like Gods on campus...
Jul 19, 2013, 9:53 AM
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and most of the ones that play high profile sports, dont even care about the education they are getting.
My thing is, you didnt hear about the athletes complaining about how much money the NCAA, school and conferences were making off of them prior to this generation. I am ashamed to share the generation with such people that have an amazing opportunity placed in the palm of their hand and yet they want more.
This liberal minded think tank of, "what MORE can I get" is what is driving this country downhill and it is showing more than ever in the younger generation that expects everything to be handed to them.
I went and got an education, now I work 40-50 hours a week. I work to earn whatever I get paid. I accepted the job I did, and I have expectations. I meet those expectations week in and out. If these student athletes dont like the opportunity they are given... no one is making them stay in their "rough" situation.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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Well your argument is flawed
Jul 19, 2013, 10:03 AM
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"My thing is, you didnt hear about the athletes complaining about how much money the NCAA, school and conferences were making off of them prior to this generation. I am ashamed to share the generation with such people that have an amazing opportunity placed in the palm of their hand and yet they want more."
Previous generations didn't have video games where the players on the games looked like the players themselves. There is a lot more to it than a "liberal-minded think tank."
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All-In [40656]
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This is about more than video games***
Jul 19, 2013, 10:31 AM
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CU Medallion [64589]
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"these guys live like Gods on campus" !?!?!
Jul 19, 2013, 10:40 AM
[ in reply to These guys live like Gods on campus... ] |
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LOL...I take it you have never seen the inside of Lightsey Bridge which is where many of the football players live.
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All-In [40656]
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No, but I have seen
Jul 19, 2013, 10:52 AM
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the inside of where the majority of NCST football players live. Along with some places where UNC athletes live. Nothing to complain about there because most of them are brand new apartments or nice homes for college students.
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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That's because the NCAA, schools, and conferences didn't...
Jul 19, 2013, 12:16 PM
[ in reply to These guys live like Gods on campus... ] |
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make anywhere close to the tons of money that college football has started to bring in over the past 20 years. Just think about, when Danny Ford was our coach his salary back then is what we pay position coaches now. So don't even try to compare the past to the present.
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CU Guru [1895]
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The problem is people getting rich off of these guys
Jul 19, 2013, 8:36 PM
[ in reply to These guys live like Gods on campus... ] |
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Nick Saban makes 5.5 Million a year directly based on how his players perform on the field, while those players do not see a dime.
Even more through merchandising, TV deals, etc. a lot of people are getting rich off of the backs of the college athlete while the player can't even put their own name on a flyer for a party.
Somebody buying Tajh Boyd or Sammy Watkins a meal is an "improper benefit" while you can walk into any sports shop in Clemson and see #2 and #10 jerseys going for $50+ dollars each.
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Head Coach [798]
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I don't think anyone is asking you to feel sorry
Jul 19, 2013, 9:54 AM
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but if you read the reason why Darrius Robinson and the Wrestler from MN are suing, I certainly see their point.
The NCAA rules and their interpretation effectively prevent student athletes from doing almost anything to earn money.
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Oculus Spirit [93667]
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Like you said, "...they signed a contract..."
Jul 19, 2013, 10:03 AM
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therefor they have every right to a day in court. If it is determined that the NCAA has a monopoly then the NCAA has the problem.
The NCAA already has a problem, the players are beginning to gather toward a common cause.
Whether right or wrong the NCAA has a foe on the inside.
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Freshman [5]
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Re: Are we supposed to feel sorry for college football players?
Jul 19, 2013, 10:30 AM
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I do feel for the athletes, but there isn't a whole lot we can do. If you pay the football players, you would have to pay all athletes, basketball, baseball, track, tennis, volleyball etc. etc. You would have to pay them the same amount, no way lawyers would allow anything different. Also it would have to be all schools, do you think schools like sc state or Wofford and many others could afford to spend that kind of money, each ncaa athlete would have to be paid the same, again lawyers would not allow anything different.
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Commissioner [907]
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Who is using who?
Jul 19, 2013, 10:59 AM
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D1 football is rife with athletes that are looking solely to use athletics to take them into the big show (NFL for example), where there earning potential will be astronomical compared to anyone who just earns a college degree and gets a job. Yet, athletes are treated much better by the school than tuition paying students. I contend that if they want to be compensated for their efforts in athletics, that the universities that provided them opportunities, training, coaching, medical care, etc. to earn a living making such a vast amount of money should be given a stipend by each former athlete that makes money in a post college league.
I agree also, that athletes should be allowed to either make money or be given a stipend to cover expenses if they aren't allowed to make it for themselves by NCAA rule.
If they want to be compensated by the university for what they are bringing into its coffers, then the should be giving the university compensation for what it helped them bring into their coffers. Makes sense to me
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Orange Blooded [2693]
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Feeling Sorry has nothing to do with it
Jul 19, 2013, 10:51 AM
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You sound a bit like Bowie Kuhn, rationalizing why you have the right to steal someones car because you bought them an ice cold six pack........ And then pat them on the head like a dog, and say "thanks, nice job".
Message was edited by: profuscious®
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All-In [44043]
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I don't buy the notion that they are victims here.
Jul 19, 2013, 11:19 AM
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As mentioned in my first post, they get a LOT for their efforts, including a free education, free tutors, free meals, free housing, free apparel, etc. And they can still apply for student loans and work small jobs (although the allowed jobs are too limited in my opinion). Nonetheless, they are treated well for doing something they love, with the potential to do it in the future for a lot of money on the professional level.
Plenty of professions require that you pay your dues. For example, in the medical field, you sacrifice your time, your sleep, and your overall health to one day have the career you want. You accrue substantial student loan debt in the process, with virtually no ability to work an outside job. The government and the hospital where you do your residency make money off of you for the cheap labor you provide to patients. That doesn't seem "fair" either, but it's what you sign up for.
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Standout [313]
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Re: I don't buy the notion that they are victims here.
Jul 19, 2013, 11:40 AM
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It's not really a lot of money on average, and most will never make it.
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CU Medallion [67819]
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Re: I always wondered if you took the cost of the education
Jul 19, 2013, 10:51 AM
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and books and divided by the hourse spent on the sport- playing, travel, workouts etc. I'll bet the cost per hour is closer to minimum wage than anyone would dare estimate
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Oculus Spirit [81897]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 47116
Joined: 3/18/07
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Remember you need to add in the cost of all their
Jul 19, 2013, 11:47 AM
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tutors, specialists, physical therapists, athletic clothing, travel, food stipends, etc.
It's way above minimum wage.
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All-In [29036]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 36097
Joined: 8/28/00
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You don't have to feel bad for someone
Jul 19, 2013, 11:47 AM
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To think that laws should be followed.
As I've said before on this issue, it may well be that the scholarship paperwork allows Clemson to use the players likeness and also allows Clemson to license their use elsewhere. Or it may well be that the courts will decide the likeness used in the NCAA video game (stats, general appearance, position, etc) do not actually constitute a true legal likeness. But those are legal questions, centered around the general principle that a company is not allowed to make money off your likeness without your approval/agreement.
So, no, I don't feel bad for the players. But I don't have to feel bad for them in order to understand their desire for them to control the rights to their likeness.
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110%er [6881]
TigerPulse: 99%
Posts: 9173
Joined: 7/11/03
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Well I don't. They are treated very well.***
Jul 20, 2013, 7:52 AM
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