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Replies: 64
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CU Guru [1346]
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So much Big 12 talk
Dec 5, 2012, 10:01 PM
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I get it when people say they want Clemson to join the SEC. Not only does it give the football program a chance to step up (or fail), but most people probably know fans of more than one team. UGA and SCar are the obvious ones, but even FL and Bama fans are everywhere. And many stadiums are not so far away. So it seems pretty natural.
But I really don't get the energy put into writing and talking about the Big 12. How many of those complaining would seriously make the effort to go to OK or IA or KS or TX regularly to see a game? Sure, there are competitive benefits to playing in a league more football oriented, but with the exception of Baylor and TCU, these are huge state schools with big stadiums. Tiger Orange would look like a spec in a sea of non-orange. And if the CU program isn't always on top, it could be the real ####### child not bringing in the revenue. Unless Clemson came in with a large eastern group, it doesn't seem like a great idea.
It would almost make as much sense to me to solicit an SEC school or two to build the ACC up. UK might be a natural start given their basketball focus in addition to football. Bottom line why jump into a conference that isn't a great fit if the ACC hasn't even imploded yet?
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Associate AD [833]
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Re: So much Big 12 talk
Dec 5, 2012, 10:07 PM
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You don't get the economics of college football. This is about money. Travel to away games as nothing to do with it. The ACC football product and tv contract is inferior to the SEC. No SEC school is taking a 10 million a year pay cut to move to an inferior football conference!
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CU Guru [1346]
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My point - big gap between CU and Big 12 needs
Dec 5, 2012, 10:14 PM
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I'm highlighting that those who want it think Clemson has the upper hand in getting the Big 12 to offer the invite. I'm saying it isn't so. It seems like a horrible fit, without any real positive economic impact for the conference, unless there is a mass influx of eastern teams. All the upside is for CU and not the Big 12. The only exception might be GT because of the attractive ATL TV market. You can hardly stop for gas without finding someone at the station next to you who may have originally come from an area with a Big 10 or Big 12 team. Even if GT isn't a draw, there are other fans there. MD's upside was the VA/MD/DC TV market.
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Associate AD [833]
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Re: My point - big gap between CU and Big 12 needs
Dec 5, 2012, 10:26 PM
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I think Clemson would join with FSU and maybe others. I think it would be a play for the whole region as far as tv market. The best fit is the SEC but I don't think that makes since for them unless they decide to take a couple of teams to block the Big 12 from a foothold in their back yard. It's all being driven by tv deals. Rivalries, culture, driving distance are less important.
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CU Guru [1346]
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It's all in the mix
Dec 5, 2012, 10:36 PM
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If you bring a lot of fans to fill the seats you are probably bringing eyeballs to your local TV market. Problem for Clemson is that being far away and in a not large non-ACC/SEC market (Greenville) they are bad for the Big 12 on both counts.
I agree that a Big 12 move would make sense if at least FSU and maybe GT came along if not other eastern teams (who is left?) WVU and Clemson does not make a very compelling "Eastern Division".
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Orange Blooded [3677]
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Most intelligent post of the night
Dec 5, 2012, 10:07 PM
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of course, that aint sayin much tonight.
Seriously, the most sensible post on the subject.
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Orange Blooded [2659]
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Re: Most intelligent post of the night
Dec 5, 2012, 10:14 PM
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I agree that it would be better for fans, but $$$ drives this stuff. UM dropped 60+ years of rivalries for more dough. They are broke. Why would any SEC school take a huge pay cut to do the same? Fan's perspectives don't matter any more.
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CU Guru [1346]
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It just isn't a good fit
Dec 5, 2012, 10:19 PM
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is my point. I'm not predicting anything. But I would be surprised if the Big 12 invited Clemson WITHOUT a corresponding pool of other eastern teams, no matter what conference they are in. The only one who would benefit otherwise would be Clemson in the payout. But the Big 12 would have to consider, what it the Clemson contribution? I'm sure the Big 10 considered that with MD - the TV market in the DC area.
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110%er [7390]
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Bravo; I've been thinking we need to take from the SEC
Dec 5, 2012, 10:18 PM
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since Maryland left. That's the only possible way out of any circumstance to not only fix whatever hurt people think our conference might actually feel but to put a cement block forward.
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Starter [379]
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its not the size of the market its that its a new market wit
Dec 5, 2012, 10:24 PM
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h 4 conf you will also have 4 networks
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CU Guru [1346]
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Guessing what you were trying to say.....
Dec 5, 2012, 10:27 PM
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You think the ACC and Big East will or should wither away, leaving Pac/2Bigs/SEC as the football conferences? Problem is, Greenville is a decent TV market (for college football per ESPN). But not for Pac/2Bigs. Only for SEC and ACC.
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Starter [379]
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its not the butts in the seats but eyeballs on the screen
Dec 5, 2012, 10:25 PM
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that pay the bills
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CU Guru [1346]
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Right, and as I keep typing in the other responses,
Dec 5, 2012, 10:30 PM
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Clemson doesn't bring a big non-ACC/SEC eyeball market. Greenville is a decent market for college football, per ESPN, but not for Pac or the 2 Bigs. ATL and DC are different in that respect.
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All-TigerNet [12195]
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Re: Right, and as I keep typing in the other responses,
Dec 5, 2012, 10:41 PM
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Ughhh...dude there is so much fail in your posts tonight.
The Big 12 wants to crack into the southeast and get 2 big time football programs to get that conference in the top tier. Greenville-Spartanburg-Asheville (as it is listed in Nielsen) is ranked at 36 so i don't know where you get that the Greenville market is decent. You don't just take one small area and make up what you want.
Of course Atlanta and DC are big markets, but you are seriously underestimating the TV market value for our area. It sounds from your username you are a northerner and don't know chit
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CU Guru [1346]
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Greenville is a decent COLLEGE FOOTBALL market
Dec 5, 2012, 10:43 PM
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It's in the top 10 per ESPN (2011 numbers). I could play the Tiger Board game and say your stats prove you 'fail' but I won't do that.....
ATL and DC are BIG COLLEGE FOOTBALL markets and NOT LIMITED to ACC and SEC.
Get it??????????
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All-TigerNet [12195]
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Re: So much Big 12 talk
Dec 5, 2012, 10:34 PM
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Here is the thing NortherTiger. The Big 12 offers us the best opportunity to remain relevant in the college football world. If FSU leaves our football product is done and our TV contract will suffer. If FSU leaves and CU leaves for the Big 12 that conference automatically becomes a big player with a BIG TIME contract.
So here it is itemized for you on why we go Big 12
1. Better competition
2. Better SOS
3. Catch up to the SEC
4. A lot more money
5. We open up the midwest and west southeast recruiting
6. Big time football games. (even their weak teams are playing good now and about to load up on new stadiums I.E. Baylor.....Kansas just plain sucks though
Tell me you wouldnt want to be a part of this
Oklahoma
Texas
FSU
CU
Texas Tech
Kansas State
Oklahoma State
Baylor
Iowa State
WVU
TCU
Kansas
I mean do you seriously with a straight face not get this?
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CU Guru [1346]
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Yeah, better for Clemson but for Big 12?
Dec 5, 2012, 10:41 PM
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My point is just that people are spending a lot of energy calling for joining the Big 12 when I just do see how the Big 12 benefits. Maybe they are a football charity (joke). But if not, Clemson by itself doesn't do anything for the conference. If the ACC implodes, it's likely that Clemson wouldn't be alone as others would follow to the Big 12 if not there already. But without that massive shift, it's all one-sided in Clemson's favor. Not a good business deal except for Clemson.
Spending energy on trying to build up the ACC if not join the SEC seems wiser. It's just me.
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All-TigerNet [12195]
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Re: Yeah, better for Clemson but for Big 12?
Dec 5, 2012, 10:50 PM
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Dude. I just listed in my post above how they benefit, but i will do it again for you. I just do not see how you do not understand this.
1. Of course joining the SEC seems wiser, but the first conference that is going to come calling is the Big 12. You know that, I know that, the whole freaking college football worlds knows that. Then maybe the SEC moves in and says we don't want the Big 12 moving in on our turf and we get the invite
2. The Big 12 wants that Southeast footprint. That is why they are looking at FSU and CU.
3. The Big 12 currently sits at 10 members. They are going to have to take somebody and right now their options are slim. If for no other reason this one should suffice you for now
4. A big time market (as i noted earlier when you incorrectly talked about the Greenville-Spartanburg-Asheville Market) is ranked at number 36 in the entire nation. That is freaking legit.
5. 2 Big time football programs for a conference that is going to have to bring in good member for SOS purposes
Not a good business deal? Are you crazy? Dude the Big 12 TV deal blows the ACC's out of the water. Add FSU and CU and we are talking AT LEAST SEC type money.
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CU Guru [1346]
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Dude, please read my words
Dec 5, 2012, 10:59 PM
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You are making my point. Clemson is NOT attractive outside of some PACKAGE. Everybody describes a number of versions like you do. But until those wheels turn and all the ball fall into place, Clemson (my opinion) is not on the top of the list. For example, and offer to GT makes a helluva lot more sense today than to Clemson. If GT is on the move to Big 12 or already there, then maybe FSU. Then perhaps Clemson.
To start the buildout with Clemson and NO guarantee of others in the east is a really bad business decision given what Clemson brings to the Big 12 in TV or fanbase.
I just think it's a waste time to expect any action until other chips fall into place.
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Legend [16213]
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1. We already turned her down once when she called already.
Dec 5, 2012, 11:16 PM
[ in reply to Re: Yeah, better for Clemson but for Big 12? ] |
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2. Of course they want us. We're Clemson. Plus, the Big 12 is desperate to establish its own stability.
3. They need 12. I need 25,000. Get in line.
4. Yes. We are a big time market, both here and abroad.
5. You are what you eat.
Were there a coordinated mass exodus due to some circumstance to form a true eastern front to the Big 12 I would be interested. As for right now, no way.
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Trainer [48]
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Re: Yeah, better for Clemson but for Big 12?
Dec 5, 2012, 10:50 PM
[ in reply to Yeah, better for Clemson but for Big 12? ] |
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I think what palmetto is trying to say is that clemson is not going alone. More of a package deal with FSU & GT possibly. For the Big 12 to break into this region would mean more eye balls on the tv sets which for big 12 means more money. If our football program sustains 10 win seasons or gets better its a win for the big 12. Your logic is saying that having WVU join was all for WVU benefit but not them. Is that correct?
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CU Guru [1346]
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Okay, when the package deal is made, then...
Dec 5, 2012, 11:01 PM
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It makes sense to get excited. But to expect a first or early action on Clemson by the Big 12 seems like a waste of time. To me.
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Trainer [48]
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Re: Okay, when the package deal is made, then...
Dec 5, 2012, 11:04 PM
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I dont think it would be a waste of time. WVU went alone. Made sense then?
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CU Guru [1346]
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Believe it or not
Dec 5, 2012, 11:16 PM
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WVU taps into the DC college football market partially and it's a better school/size fit. I get your point, and WVU had to move given they were shunned by the ACC and not happy in the Big East. But my point stands. GT and FSU are better invites from the ACC to start for the Big 12 than Clemson. If the ACC implodes, the Big 12 would be foolish to not jump on those three if they are still available (GT, FSU, CU). But until then...
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CU Guru [1997]
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The only thing worse than joining the Big 12....
Dec 5, 2012, 10:44 PM
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Is sitting still in an ACC that has imploded around you, and you've done nothing, and next thing you know you're playing conference games against ECU, Southern Miss & UConn.
That's really the only thing that would ever make me even consider the Big 12. IMO, the Big 12 is a terrible conference, and should be only looked at as a last resort.
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CU Guru [1346]
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I agree
Dec 5, 2012, 10:49 PM
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But it hasn't imploded. Yet. And my point is simple - wasting energy on typing/talking/writing/dreaming/praying/hoping for the Big 12 shift TODAY when the Big 12 would be foolish (in my opinion) to offer an invite. Today.
Things could change. But until they do, why not spend just as much time figuring out how to build up the ACC with more natural fits like middle or lower rung SEC teams, just for one example. Taking programs on the rise like Pitt or Louisville won't mean competing for national championships within the conference, but it's better than a pipe dream. (again, my opinion)
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CU Guru [1997]
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You and I are basically on the same page...
Dec 5, 2012, 10:54 PM
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My most preferred outcome is for the ACC to hang together and fix its problems.
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All-TigerNet [12195]
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Re: You and I are basically on the same page...
Dec 5, 2012, 10:59 PM
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Well smitty...heres the thing. FSU is leaving, your own program GT is leaving. Its not an option at this point due to the #### poor leadership of this conference.
So we have to move on and do what is best for our programs. IMO we were never meant for the ACC. We have more in common with the Big 12 and SEC schools than we do Duke, WF, BC and on and on
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CU Guru [1346]
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How do you know?
Dec 5, 2012, 11:04 PM
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I am curious how you know with certainty FSU and GT are moving. Not blasting, just curious. We all read the rumors and have our suspicions, but....
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CU Guru [1997]
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He doesn't know.***
Dec 5, 2012, 11:05 PM
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*
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Trainer [48]
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Re: How do you know?
Dec 5, 2012, 11:05 PM
[ in reply to How do you know? ] |
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FSU is all but gone. Why wouldnt they have voted for the 50M buyout then? Maryland moved first as they didnt vote for buyout either. FSU will prob be on move before next football season is all but done.
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CU Guru [1997]
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You're possibly correct. But we don't know for sure really.
Dec 5, 2012, 11:14 PM
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Lots of rumors. We'll see what happens.
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Orange Blooded [4504]
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NOBODY knows what is going to happen. Pure speculation.***
Dec 5, 2012, 11:17 PM
[ in reply to How do you know? ] |
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All-TigerNet [12195]
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Re: I agree
Dec 5, 2012, 11:14 PM
[ in reply to I agree ] |
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Why in the world would the Big 12 be foolish to invite CU and FSU TODAY!!!!
Are you related to John Swofford because your reactive nature would kill any conference.
Sure...wait around Big 12 and get the leftovers. Sounds like a great plan
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CU Guru [1346]
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Why would the Big 12 be foolish and invite Clemson
Dec 5, 2012, 11:56 PM
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WITHOUT FSU or VT or GT or...??????
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All-TigerNet [12195]
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Re: The only thing worse than joining the Big 12....
Dec 5, 2012, 10:54 PM
[ in reply to The only thing worse than joining the Big 12.... ] |
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Gosmitty,
Do you watch much college football? Is this a joke.
Pick one
WVU, CU, FSU, Okla, Texas, Texas Tech, WVU, TCU, Okla St, Baylor, Kansas State, Iowa State
or
Syracuse, WF, Pitt, Duke, Louisville, Uconn/Cincinnati (what the ACC will replace FSU with because they are leaving its just a matter of time), NC State, UNC, UVA, BC.....do i have to keep going
I mean this is common sense stuff for any casual college football fan.
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CU Guru [1997]
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I'll bet I watch more than you...
Dec 5, 2012, 10:57 PM
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BTW, you listed WVU twice. What do you want them to do? Clone themselves and have 2 Oliver Lucks running around?
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All-TigerNet [12195]
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Re: I'll bet I watch more than you...
Dec 5, 2012, 10:59 PM
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Yea...I want them to clone themselves.
Answer the freaking question. Which one you want?
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CU Guru [1997]
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If you had read my original post closely....
Dec 5, 2012, 11:04 PM
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You'd see that I already answered your question.
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All-TigerNet [12195]
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Re: If you had read my original post closely....
Dec 5, 2012, 11:07 PM
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So your choosing Duke, WF, Syracuse, UNC, BC and others over Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas State, Oklahoma St, FSU (who is going whether you like it or not) and others
LMFAO with your choice. If you can't see the fail in your logic then nobody can help you
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CU Guru [1997]
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(eyes roll)...
Dec 5, 2012, 11:13 PM
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OK. I'll spell it out for you AGAIN...
I don't want to be left in an ACC that has imploded. If I wake up tomorrow, and most of the Clemson/FSU/VT/Miami type schools are gone, then yes, I'd join the Big 12 if I had to.
The better alternative is for Tech, Clemson, FSU, VT, et al, to stay and work it out. If you guys or FSU leaves, then obviously, all bets are off.
Get it? Or are you going to mis-read me again?
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All-TigerNet [12195]
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Re: (eyes roll)...
Dec 5, 2012, 11:16 PM
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Not misreading anything. Now read this
FSU, GT, and UVA are gone
And why is it better for the schools to stay and "work it out". We paid our dues and our commissioner was out playing golf with Raycom executives instead of cutting TV deals that were acceptable.
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110%er [7390]
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All-American [577]
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Heardit today!
Dec 5, 2012, 10:48 PM
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I live out in Dallas, TX and it came up today. THey were saying it is better than 50-50% that FSU and Clemson will be in the Big 12.
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CU Guru [1346]
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It's a start
Dec 5, 2012, 10:52 PM
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But it still wouldn't build a very strong non-Midwest/Southwest conference or market (WVU, FSU, CU). It would take more. Maybe FSU+Clemson+an SEC team or two.
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All-TigerNet [12195]
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Re: It's a start
Dec 5, 2012, 10:56 PM
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Norther,
Your killing me tonight bro. FSU and CU alone would get your conference into the southeast footprint. I don't know how you do not understand this.
Why would you think that it wouldn't when you now have a school in South Carolina and Florida. I think at this point your just making #### up to go along with your argument.
And get real....nobody in the SEC is going to leave.
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CU Guru [1346]
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It's simple to me
Dec 5, 2012, 11:11 PM
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You still have a conference, even if divided in two, with only 2 or 3 teams NOT in OK/IA/TX/KS. That is not a strong Southern presence, and most of the games will not be played in the South. Add to that the fact that none of those TV markets have an much of an existing Big 12 fanbase, and it doesn't help much. And GT and FSU would be better additions than Clemson and FSU. It's a puzzle they will have to work out if they are truly going to expand in the South, but I don't see Clemson being a jewel by itself.
YES, it would be attractive in some combination or package, but until that happens, it's a waste of time. It's just guesswork.
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Trainer [48]
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Re: It's simple to me
Dec 5, 2012, 11:12 PM
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I cant help but laugh. This must really be a joke.
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Trainer [48]
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Re: It's a start
Dec 5, 2012, 10:59 PM
[ in reply to It's a start ] |
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Is this really a joke? Its not about what makes sense travel wise to them. Its about the TVs being turned on. Would you rather tune into a Clemson/Wake game on tv or Clemson/OU? College football fans outside of Clemson would watch Clemson/OU, Clemson/WVU, Clemson/Kstate, Etc before Clemson/Duke, Clemson/Wake, Etc. Like the FSU/OU game 2 years ago was all hyped up and ppl watched it. I watched it and Im a Clemson fan. Thats where it comes in.
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CU Guru [1346]
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Do you always use that tactic?
Dec 5, 2012, 11:27 PM
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Yes I am serious and it's not a joke. I guess if I played your game, I'd ask if you know anything about business????
The Big 12 teams have an established market, butts and eyeballs. When adding a team, the additional eyeballs IN EXISTING markets is secondary. The ADDITIONAL markets are key. A Clemson TV market (mostly Greenville) helps when Clemson is playing but not when Clemson is not playing. That is why the Big 10 added MD - lot's of Big 10 fans in DC area, where adding the local market to existing contracts or adding the network (I think there is a Big 10 Network) means they get more than just MD game eyeballs.
Try watching an SEC game in the Pac 12 region, for example. Even though the middle season games may be big, they are only televised in certain markets (I'm not including the SEC championship). If some random LA area team were added to the SEC, for example, that market would see all SEC games on the existing network and there is likely a significant built in SEC fanbase. Just an example.
Clemson is an attractive football program, it just doesn't bring the other financial benefits that GT or FSU would. For that matter VT is more attractive.
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Legend [16213]
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You make a great point, and there's a dilemma on the
Dec 5, 2012, 10:57 PM
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horizon in terms of how much conferences, or Texas, will be able to get from cable companies aka subscribers for their fledgling networks. The Big 10 found out that having a program in a state brought out better premiums. When your state is Minnesota or Wisconsin, Michigan, Iowa, Illinois, I can see that because there's nothing else to compete with and those states bleed Big 10 at birth. But they're not going to see the same premium on New Jersey and Maryland systems to the tune they're thinking. It gets watered down in some areas with mixed allegiances whether there's a team there or not.
Slive has enough vision I think to know how to look within at those moments when others are looking out. He knows how green the grass is where he's standing. TV markets and subscriber revenue, plus new media, is a moving target. Tradition and prestige will always be unique and irreplaceable.
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CU Guru [1346]
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Large TV markets are usually decent college football
Dec 5, 2012, 11:31 PM
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markets, too. WVU and MD were attractive to their respective conferences because the DC market has a decent fanbase for all conferences. I guess many big school graduates (SEC, Bigs, etc.) like working around or in the gubment....
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Commissioner [942]
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The SEC neither wants nor needs us. And we are never
Dec 5, 2012, 10:59 PM
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going to lure a SEC team to either the ACC nor the Big 12. And that's because no SEC team will take that kind of paycut. When Slive gets through, the SEC will probably have the richest TV deal in college sports.
We need to go to the Big 12. The only downside is the distance from the East coast to the Midwest. Local recruiting will be negatively impacted. Hopefully we can make up for it recruiting in the Midwest and Southwest.
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All-TigerNet [12195]
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Re: The SEC neither wants nor needs us. And we are never
Dec 5, 2012, 11:04 PM
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I don't think local recruiting will be impacted at all. Big time prospects are starting to flock to the SEC already. These guys want to represent their state and region against the best. Not some mop up programs like Duke and Wake.
I think the recruiting argument and not getting to watch them is played out. I know we will have some travel, but how come nobody ever mentioned the travel when all the freaking northern basketball schools were sent invites. Don't know about you but traveling to Syracuse, NY is a haul. Traveling to Boston, MA is a haul.
When we open up the midwest I think we actually gain ground to great linemen on both sides of the ball. Then we can tell recruits truthfully "DO YOU WANT TO PLAY AT A BIG TIME FOOTBALL SCHOOL IN A BIG TIME FOOTBALL CONFERENCE"
Bottom line none of this matters. When FSU announces for the Big 12 in a couple of weeks we will be forced to follow. Our hand will literally be forced so it really doesn't matter what any of us think
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Trainer [48]
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Re: The SEC neither wants nor needs us. And we are never
Dec 5, 2012, 11:07 PM
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exactly my thoughts.
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Commissioner [942]
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Re: The SEC neither wants nor needs us. And we are never
Dec 5, 2012, 11:10 PM
[ in reply to Re: The SEC neither wants nor needs us. And we are never ] |
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The reason I say local recruiting will be negatively impacted is because we heard rumblings of unhappiness from local recruits we were recruiting, when word got out that we may jump to the Big 12. There's no doubt that area schools will use that against us. But like you said, once FSU jumps to the Big 12, we will have no choice but to follow.
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All-TigerNet [12195]
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Re: The SEC neither wants nor needs us. And we are never
Dec 5, 2012, 11:17 PM
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Of course some recruits right now will be effected, but you can't hold a program hostage due to a few. Our long term success does not involve the ACC.
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110%er [6937]
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CU Guru [1210]
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Re: So much Big 12 talk
Dec 5, 2012, 11:18 PM
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Lmao bringing in uk to help build acc has to be the dumbest thing ive read. Of course the sec is the best option but the big12 is gonna be the destination...screw the acc its gonna be dead
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All-TigerNet [12195]
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Re: So much Big 12 talk
Dec 5, 2012, 11:20 PM
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Bingo.....everybody wants to go SEC, but they are not going to invite. Big 12 would be full blown ###### if they did not get FSU and CU. The SEC does not need us. The Big 12 does
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110%er [7390]
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The SEC can buy us. We won't even know about it.***
Dec 5, 2012, 11:28 PM
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CU Guru [1346]
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I keep forgetting VT
Dec 5, 2012, 11:34 PM
[ in reply to Re: So much Big 12 talk ] |
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They could be attractive to the Big 12 also. They pull in the DC area money (TV).
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Commissioner [942]
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They are headed to the SEC, unfortunately.***
Dec 6, 2012, 6:10 AM
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CU Guru [1346]
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Yeah, hahahahaha
Dec 5, 2012, 11:43 PM
[ in reply to Re: So much Big 12 talk ] |
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UK is silly. Until you check out their bowl record in the last 10 and compare it to Clemson. They beat FSU in 07. Yeah, I know Clemson beat them in 09. My point is just that they would come in pretty strong for the ACC and are a better addition than, say, another Big East team.
It's not the best possible scenario for Clemson, but I don't have delusions of grandeur like some.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: So much Big 12 talk
Dec 5, 2012, 11:39 PM
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Yeah, I believe Mizzou is feeling like the adopted orphan in their first year.
At least Texas A&M made a statement that a new member should make - kind of like if you have to go to prison, your first day in the yard you better pick out the biggest MF out there and go ape on him.
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