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Scout Team [153]
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One thing that is interesting about the Bible
Jun 4, 2019, 8:12 AM
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particularly the Old Testament which is basically the history of Israel.....
They always give God the glory for everything, and when they lose a battle or some affliction comes upon them, they point to their failures before God as the reason for them.
Figures like Abraham, Moses, Joshua, and King David are not held up as hero’s, but their shortcomings are highlighted in order to show that God is the reason behind their success.
Even in the New Testament Jesus, who is supposedly the son of god who never sinned, is recorded rebuking someone for calling him good and says no one is good but god.
Is there any other culture in history that parallels this mindset? I don’t mean just giving glory to their god. Obviously other religions glorify whatever deity they serve, but they don’t make it a point to highlight the failures of central historical figures to do so.
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Oculus Spirit [93609]
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Re: One thing that is interesting about the Bible
Jun 4, 2019, 11:54 AM
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After Israel was delivered by God from 400 years of slavery at the hand of Egypt they sought to compensate God for their freedom, they wanted to show Him how thankful they were for what He'd done for them. They ask Him to give them laws which they would obey so they could live up to His standard.
He did not initiate Levitical Law they invited it. Why? They wanted to prove they deserved God's grace. Pride. The fact is that man can not live to God's standard which is holy. That statement is only offensive to the prideful which includes all of us.
Your statement that Abraham, Moses, Joshua, and King David aren't considered as heroes is quite wrong. I believe you consider your statement true due to a misconception that anyone who is flawed can not be a hero and anyone who points out a hero's fault does not consider him a hero at all. We have totally different perspectives on that.
Our differences are also accentuated in your understanding of what Christ was saying to the man who called Him good. Let's look at the conversation as recorded by Matthew.
Chpt 19 vs 16-17
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Christ knew the man did not believe He was the Savior. Christ, therefor, told him, in fact, to obey the law which his ancestors sought and got in order to prove their worthiness.
That is the entire point of Christ function and purpose on earth. To give Himself as propitiation for our sin, a sacrifice of one who was innocent to cover the sin of the guilty. God Himself took on the flesh of man and gave his own life to save you. If you believe, as did the man in the verses, that Christ is not God then you to are deciding to prove your worth by obeying Levitical Law.
How could the Old Testament present anyone without showing their faults if the Bible was intended to lead us all to Christ? If a man is perfect he does not need anything else to get to heaven.
Questions?
Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®
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Scout Team [153]
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Re: One thing that is interesting about the Bible
Jun 4, 2019, 12:46 PM
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My point about those bible characters I listed was that most religions prop up their founders/prophets, whatever, where as the bible makes it a point to show their flaws in order to give the glory to their god. They are heroes because of their faith. The bible seems to report what was believed and known about these people honestly instead of building them up like Muslims do with Muhammad.
You are looking at what Jesus said through the lenses of someone who believes he is the messiah. I'm looking at it with a skeptical eye and just noting that it doesn't sound like something someone would make up. If I was writing centuries later trying to prove to people that Jesus was the son of god I certainly wouldn't have him saying that.
The bible is a fascinating book. However, I can see why people claim that the quickest way to become an atheist is by reading it. The stories, especially the Old Testament, seem strange and fanciful, but on the other hand, it is amazing that so many authors over so many centuries were able to put it together to tell one coherent story and there is plenty of archaeological/historical evidence that it is trustworthy when it comes to the people and places it names.
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Oculus Spirit [93609]
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I'd say reading about it is...
Jun 4, 2019, 1:30 PM
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a greater threat to truth than reading it. As you said, we read it from different perspectives. I compare the Bible, The Word of God to electricity. As a child I knew an old woman who did not believe electricity. That means she didn't have it because she didn't need it. Indeed, she was right. She cooked and heated with wood and used lanterns for light.
That doesn't mean if she stuck her finger to a live wire she would have come to 'believe,' and had the local utilities company hook her up with electricity.
Millions are made each year writing about the Bible. People make millions teaching about the Bible. Some do it in support of the Bible and some do it to prove the Bible is a fable, a farce and a lie. I don't know who is making the most money but it's big business.
I read the Bible. I pray you read it for yourself and let my opinion and the opinion of others fall away after whatever you consider due consideration. I recommend you might start at considering to read the book of John in the New Testament.
Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®
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Oculus Spirit [80998]
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Oculus Spirit [93609]
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How would you like not having free will?***
Jun 5, 2019, 1:59 PM
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Oculus Spirit [80998]
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How would i know the difference if i never did?***
Jun 5, 2019, 3:09 PM
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Oculus Spirit [93609]
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It's likely you wouldn't exist.
Jun 9, 2019, 12:35 PM
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You wouldn't know the difference but are you willing now to give up free will to see things made perfect?
If so you may be ready to accept that Christ is the only way to existing in a perfect place. I am not denying that God is selfish and must have a complete absence of will other than His. All beings must give the whole of their will to Him for that perfect existence you seek.
If something is perfect any change will make it imperfect, anything which alters it will destroy the perfection so it must continue without alteration or variance. Think math, not art.
This is why God created man. It's a little subjective and obscure but the information is there to support this belief and the story is pretty clear. Would you like to explore it?
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Oculus Spirit [80998]
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Not really.
Jun 10, 2019, 1:48 PM
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Succinctly, I don't believe in fairy tales.
How can a perfect being create an imperfect creature? That has always been one of the many details that make the whole thing unbelievable.
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Oculus Spirit [93609]
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He created man perfect.
Jun 10, 2019, 4:41 PM
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It's the free will thing that corrupted and contaminated our existence and nature.
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Scout Team [153]
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Re: He created man perfect.
Jun 10, 2019, 4:48 PM
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Who created sin?
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Scout Team [153]
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Re: He created man perfect.
Jun 10, 2019, 4:49 PM
[ in reply to He created man perfect. ] |
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Or better yet, who created the desire to sin?
If god created humans, any thought that enters our mind was out there by the creator.
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Oculus Spirit [80998]
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uh..so terminal disease, cancer, mental/physical birth
Jun 10, 2019, 4:50 PM
[ in reply to He created man perfect. ] |
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defects were all caused by free will?
We're getting close to the fairy tale nonsense I was talking about earlier.
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Oculus Spirit [93609]
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Yes, sin caused all our misery.
Jun 11, 2019, 9:51 AM
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If I put a lump of feces contaminated with ebola or some other deadly disease in a well would you drink the water? If it's so obvious to our physical being why is it so difficult to grasp that spiritual concept.
Sin corrupted both our spiritual and physical existence.
I had been reading the Bible for 3 decades believing that it was creative of the writers to use examples of our physical existence to explain spiritual concepts. When I realized the the spiritual world preceded creation of the universe my understanding became much more natural and my 'faith,' became more knowing. This world was designed to help us understand God and His principles.
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Oculus Spirit [80998]
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Apparently, from your perspective, this world was meant to
Jun 11, 2019, 2:15 PM
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make us suffer. Some of those that suffer have done absolutely nothing, nor even have the ability to even know of or partake in free-will.
Telling me free will causes childhood cancers or mental and physical defects from birth is like trying to tell me 1=2.
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Oculus Spirit [93609]
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I'll try to explain if you'll try to see my perspective.
Jun 11, 2019, 5:10 PM
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All I'm asking for is a fair shake here. Leave out the assumption and supposition and please stop trying to assign me an unwarranted and inaccurate opinion. We've been nipping around the edges and I appreciate your contentions but you have refused to give me a chance at unveiling the truth.
This isn't a trivial political difference, it's a matter of eternal importance.
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Oculus Spirit [80998]
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This is where I normally check out of these threads.
Jun 12, 2019, 12:41 PM
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You won't convince me that millions of people who have had nothing to do with religion, nor are bad people, senselessly die because of some dogma about a woman who came from a rib and ate an apple.
Its gibberish and is a myth, all designed around controlling the masses of people in an age un-enlightenment.
I don't believe in the boogie man, nor santa claus, nor anyone's idea of god. The most arrogant of the believers say that others idea of God are wrong (Those ancient Greeks were crazy, amiright?), but theirs is right, and how you believe is mostly because of the physical location of where you were born, and not some long sought and evaluated reasoning of the truth.
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Oculus Spirit [93609]
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I do not aspire to making you believe anything.
Jun 12, 2019, 1:27 PM
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I'm just trying to explain what I believe and why I believe it. That's fair, a reasonable person would give that consideration to anyone.
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Oculus Spirit [80998]
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I take your opinions as you say.
Jun 12, 2019, 1:44 PM
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If you believe, that's fine. I don't need to know why.
I mean I can't believe that stuff, but thats me.
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All-In [26968]
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Good observations.
Jun 4, 2019, 12:03 PM
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Keep reading, and post when you find more interesting things. The Bible is never short on the fascinating, if you're reading to read it intent to learn.
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All-In [26968]
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Whoa...nonsense in the last sentence there.
Jun 4, 2019, 12:04 PM
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"if you're reading it with intent to learn."
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Legend [17888]
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Re: One thing that is interesting about the Bible
Jun 4, 2019, 3:07 PM
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What I love with Abraham, especially, is that we learn so much about how to walk with God in this life. Through the thick and the thin. When we understand what is going on around us and when we don't. When we understand what God is doing, and when we don't.
We learn that we can ask questions of God. Not just the, "Hey, what's for supper?" kind of questions. But the, "Hey. How can I know that you are telling me the truth?" kind of questions.
We learn that God can ask us to do things that we would never expect. And that, even though He may ask us to, He will never ask from man more than He is willing to give of Himself. (Isaac & Jesus).
We also learn that open doors in this world do not mean we should expect sunshine and rainbows at every turn. Abraham journeyed to a land that was in a drought, after all. The Promised Land.
But more than anything else, we learn that God is faithful and JUST to all. Even those who claim to be His.
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Oculus Spirit [80998]
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When do you not understand what is "going on around you"?
Jun 4, 2019, 3:09 PM
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What is one of these situations?
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Legend [17888]
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Do you mean at a National level or a personal level
Jun 4, 2019, 4:29 PM
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Like how our nation is going absolutely nuts from within or when you get a ticket for speeding - because you were...and then you blame God for picking on you and not everyone else who is speeding.
A lot of people are confused and do not understand why things that are happening are happening.
Message was edited by: HuntClub®
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Oculus Spirit [80998]
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I may not agree with any of what happens.
Jun 4, 2019, 4:34 PM
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But I can certainly understand why things happen. I don't always know why someone may do something, but typically, the results of their actions are understandable. And I don't spend a lot of time trying to determine why anyone does anything.
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Legend [17888]
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Re: I may not agree with any of what happens.
Jun 4, 2019, 4:36 PM
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Hey - I misread you comments - didn't see the "not understand" part.
Trying to understand why people do certain things is an exercise in futility. Except to say they are driven by their flesh (biblically speaking)
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Oculus Spirit [80998]
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So do you understand why things happen?
Jun 4, 2019, 4:40 PM
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What comfort does god bring you in these instances?
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Legend [17888]
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Re: So do you understand why things happen?
Jun 4, 2019, 4:52 PM
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Well, as broad and open ended as that question is, I will defer to the small part that I understand:
Things happen because of the choices of people, or of God.
The comfort God brings me in all things is this, I know if the situation was prompted by my own action that I can ask forgiveness and find it - gaining peace with God again. If prompted by the actions of others I can ask God to forgive them, as He has forgiven me, and be at peace with the circumstance. If it is prompted by God (or just simply unknown to me why) I can ask God for the strength and courage to face it and trust in Him to deliver me from it - and that I learn from it what I can use to help others who may experience a similar thing.
Of course, if everything that is happening is good then I just thank God for placing His good will in my path and for the good people He lined the path for me to enjoy the moment with.
Message was edited by: HuntClub®
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Oculus Spirit [80998]
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How about the bad stuff?
Jun 4, 2019, 4:55 PM
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Not his fault I assume?
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Legend [17888]
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Re: How about the bad stuff?
Jun 4, 2019, 8:32 PM
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As I said, "I can ask God for the strength and courage to face it and trust in Him to deliver me from it - and that I learn from it what I can use to help others who may experience a similar thing."
But hey, it's not like He will ask me to sacrifice my son.... like He did with His own Son. So how bad can it be? Go hungry? Done that. I lose a loved one? Done that.
Message was edited by: HuntClub®
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Scout Team [153]
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Re: How about the bad stuff?
Jun 5, 2019, 8:48 AM
[ in reply to How about the bad stuff? ] |
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Interestingly, god or no god humans cause the vast majority of the bad things that happen.
Take the fact that Americans make up only 5% of the population but consume such a large chunk of the worlds resources while there are so many people starving....
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Lot o points [155674]
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I think it's interesting that Father Abraham had many sons,
Jun 4, 2019, 5:14 PM
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many sons had Father Abraham, and I am one of them. And so are you. So let's just praise the Lord.
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All-TigerNet [10853]
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Re: One thing that is interesting about the Bible
Jun 10, 2019, 4:56 PM
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Is there any other culture in history that parallels this mindset? I don’t mean just giving glory to their god. Obviously other religions glorify whatever deity they serve, but they don’t make it a point to highlight the failures of central historical figures to do so.
I think Bama football is about as close as you'll come.
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