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Topic: Heisman Winner at Clemson
Replies: 42   Last Post: Dec 5, 2018 10:23 PM by: Rw43
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Heisman Winner at Clemson

[1]
Posted: Dec 4, 2018 11:16 AM
 

With the recent ETN and TL chatter about Heisman consideration I wonder if we will ever have a Heisman winner under the Dabo era.

With todays high scoring offenses one has to put up ridiculous numbers to get consideration. We have the players to do so but we rotate skill players (ETN, TH etc) and replace TL after 3 quarters in most games so those guys aren't able to pad their stats like a Kyler Murray.

I really like what Dabo is doing and agree that player development with more reps amongst the younger players is what will keep us in the top of the college fball ranks for years to come but just wonder if his philosophy limits a Clemson player from winning a Heisman.

Given the choice of a Hesiman winner or a top playoff team, I'd choose the playoff team every time.

Comments.


Re: Heisman Winner at Clemson

[3]
Posted: Dec 4, 2018 11:22 AM
 

Dabo is always going to put team accomplishments before individual accomplishments, because he knows that the scoreboard doesn't give a nod individually.

I think that's why we all love Dabo.


Re: Heisman Winner at Clemson


Posted: Dec 4, 2018 11:24 AM
 

If the rest of the ACC would get better, like when DW4 was here, the starting players would have to play more, I could see a QB winning one day.


Re: Heisman Winner at Clemson

[3]
Posted: Dec 4, 2018 11:25 AM
 

Agree 100% and why I question if we ever see a Hesiman winner while Dabo is in charge.


Heisman lost credibility when Peyton Manning lost

[9]
Posted: Dec 4, 2018 11:24 AM
 

It became an outright joke when Watson was snubbed twice.


It doesn’t mean squat...just a popularity contest.

[2]
Posted: Dec 4, 2018 11:50 AM
 

It’s always been that way.

Three very good and deserving players beat out Watson twice and Manning though.

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Re: lost to some great athletes??


Posted: Dec 4, 2018 12:48 PM
 

Ironically, Manning and Watson lost for opposite reasons. While i agree with you those winning players were great, the Woodson award particularly was ridiculous.

Manning's TN team won the SEC championship, but an influential NY writer said that because his team had lost to FL early in the season, Peyton couldn't win the big one. They were 11-1 at the time of the award.

Woodson had no stats to speak of. His 'two-way' play was very limited and is the only defender ever to win. He was the beneficiary of anti-SEC bias among the national print media and Peyton's overexposure by staying at TN one year too long.

But the pendulum swung. Derrick Henry was the beneficiary of pro-SEC bias spawned by TV media when he won. Watson DID win the big games, but because the biggest games came after the vote, it didn't matter to his Heisman candidacy. We Tiger fans say that character should matter--not that Henry and Jackson were bad guys, they just weren't DW4-- but character has never mattered to Heisman voters.

On the other hand, character is a strong consideration among the other QB awards, many of which DW4 won twice. (Manning Award 2x, Unitas 1x, O'Brien 2x--you can only win Unitas once)

The Manning Award is the only award that includes all post season play in its consideration. Since it is only given to QBs, it cannot fully replace the Heisman in importance.

Too bad.

I hope Trevor could somehow win 3 Manning's. I don't give a snot about the Heisman.


Woodson had his best games against his best comp, Manning


Posted: Dec 4, 2018 12:51 PM
 

threw the pick-6 that lost the UF game...He had to beat UF to win, he didn't...Charles returned a punt vs OSU, he did


Re: Woodson had his best games against his best comp, Manning

[3]
Posted: Dec 4, 2018 1:38 PM
 

Still no contest. No other defender has been good enough to win, and rarely even be considered, but Woodson wins in a landslide?

Manning had a great year, and his team won the SEC title. But Danny Warffuel had won the year before with Fun'n'gun, so people were tired of inflated stats in the SEC.

When Manning flouted conventional wisdom and came back for a 4th season (after graduating in 3), he was precrowned with the trophy.

Then the swing back began. What could make him lose it? Only one thing: losing to FL. It didn't matter how he played--it was billed that he played poorly, but he was very good except for 2 picks, only one really mattered. What mattered was that his team lost to FL. Again.

Suddenly they needed new candidates.

Why not make this a defensive year?

And suddenly the best defensive player in the country started checking off the boxes to allow people to consider him for the Heisman. He needs to return more punts. He needs to play both ways. He was the face of a dominant defense. He returned the punt vs OSU and struck the Heisman pose. In stead of being insulted, the voters loved it. Had he done it in September, no one would have even noticed.

He was the best player on a great team, like Derrick Henry later was. But he wasn't anywhere near the greatest defensive player of the last 50 years, so why is he the only defensive winner?

The reason he won--in a landslide--was that he was the anti-Peyton.

Manning and Woodson, for their parts, never seemed to hold any ill will toward each other, and along with the third guy, Randy Moss, they certainly made great pro's.

That vote was the last stand of print media vs TV. It was irresponsible, vicious, petty, and contrarian, and it made print media obsolete.

My take anyway.


Truthfully, Randy Moss should have finished SECond, and


Posted: Dec 4, 2018 3:00 PM
 

Manning should have finished 3rd


Re: Truthfully, Randy Moss should have finished SECond, and


Posted: Dec 4, 2018 3:24 PM
 

If character doesn't matter to the Heisman voters--how questionable do you have to be for FSU to pull your scholarship?--and he got more publicity, you may be right. (Assuming Woodson s/b 1st, which was a travesty.)

But Moss' incredible year was against vastly inferior competition, right?

IYO, how would Moss have done against Woodson? In college?

Since as a Viking he beat Woodson the Packer far more often than he would have as a Thundering Herd vs a Wolverine, doesn't that make Moss the better individual player in college? Hence, Moss was better than Woodson in college. Woodson needed his team to be superior or his candidacy would never have occurred. Moss excelled even though his team didn't.


Moss' Vikings only faced Woodson once as a Packer...And


Posted: Dec 5, 2018 12:06 AM
 

if you are keeping score at home, CW played bigger in the BIG games, Moss did more with less, and Manning threw the pick 6 that cost his team a shot at a ring


Re: Moss' Vikings only faced Woodson once as a Packer...And


Posted: Dec 5, 2018 9:14 AM
 

So the other 11 games don't count?

So the fact that Manning played good, but not great, vs FL means that he lost the trophy?

The fact that Woodson wouldn't have even been a candidate if he had played for any other defense should tell you all you need to know. Moss and Manning would have. They made their own candidacies. Woodson's was made for him.

And I'm far from a stat junkie--for instance, i think DW4's greatest asset is his ability to inspire his teammates to make plays--Woodson had almost 0 measurable stats. His effect on games was just like your arguments--100% subjective. How can you measure a guy's effect on a game if nobody throws the ball his way, if he makes no tackles, and he only touches the ball 3 plays per game, averaging 40 yards? Moss got 8-9 touches per game and was extremely productive. Manning threw 40 passes and handled the ball 70 plays per game. You pretend that the Vols would have beaten FL if not for Manning's pick. Not so.

Woodson was only on that podium as the face of the MI Defense, and even that was a joke. You don't give an individual award to a team. A team that generated an absence of stats.


Yep, what you do against the best comp matters more than


Posted: Dec 5, 2018 12:44 PM
 

what you did vs Vandy, U5C and UK...Not surprised you haven't figured that out yet


Re: Yep, what you do against the best comp matters more than


Posted: Dec 5, 2018 6:44 PM
 

What about vs GA and Auburn? Do those matter?

How many plays does he need to make per game? Whatever your answer is, that was a **** of a lot more than Woodson made.

4 total TDs. That earned a Heisman. 4!!


You obviously didn't watch him play***


Posted: Dec 5, 2018 12:48 PM
 




Re: You obviously didn't watch him play***


Posted: Dec 5, 2018 6:54 PM
 

You finally got something right.

I watched Woodson play though, so that should matter.

Woodson made some great plays, but for 80% of the plays, he was just another guy in maize and blue. That's a ridiculous advantage. If Peyton had been just another Vol, his team would have lost to more teams than FL alone.

Since the 5 sections of the print-media country--all except the South--voted for Woodson, watching how Peyton played was not relevant. You know those guys didn't. The South knew him best and voted for him.


Did you miss the 7 ints and the 4 TDs?***


Posted: Dec 5, 2018 7:02 PM
 




Re: Did you miss the 7 ints and the 4 TDs?***


Posted: Dec 5, 2018 10:23 PM
 

4 TDs total; 2 on receptions + 1 interception +1 punt return

7 interceptions

21?? Receptions

8 yd avg on punt returns

That's a great season--for a player who can be a role player on 80% of the plays from scrimmage, who only needs to show up during crunch time.

Except Ohio St, when he scored half his TDs (2!!), Woodson's play was not about winning; it was about avoiding losing. Difference between offense and defense. A defense shares the burden cumulatively. Woodson was simply the best player on a great defense, the same thing Daron Payne was last year for Bama. Why didn't Payne win the Heisman?? It's not as though Baker Mayfield could win 'the big one'.

Final word, repeat of earlier: Peyton was held to a higher standard. He had a great year passing and went 11-1, winning the SEC championship but i guess that wasn't 'the big one', almost scored as many TDs as Woodson (3v4) on rushes alone. Woodson had a great season but as a defender was not the best defensive player of your lifetime, should not be even considered.

Auburn remains the only school where John Heisman coached that has had a Heisman winner. The Pat Sullivan win was a joke, too, but not a travesty.


Re: Truthfully, Randy Moss should have finished SECond, and

[1]
Posted: Dec 5, 2018 7:07 PM
 

I was with you until Thundering Herd ??


fair enough***


Posted: Dec 5, 2018 8:29 PM
 




Re: Truthfully, Randy Moss should have finished SECond, and

[1]
Posted: Dec 5, 2018 12:09 AM
 

Wildly wrong. Manning was robbed of the Heisman more so than any other college player ever, including Deshaun Watson.


Why? Woodson was better...certainly more dominant at the


Posted: Dec 4, 2018 12:48 PM
 

college level


Re: Heisman lost credibility when Peyton Manning lost


Posted: Dec 4, 2018 3:31 PM
 

I'm not sure when this mythical time was when the Heisman went to someone other than the player most hyped by the media. It is almost always gone to one of the few players that is among the best player on the best team outside of someone like an RGIII.

Even though it is undoubtedly a popularity contest, that doesn't make me want a Clemson player to win it any less. I understand the importance of team over individual accomplishments, but the two are not mutually exclusive. I don't want the team to suffer because we are trying to inflate a particular player's stats, but I don't see any reason why Lawrence can't accumulate enough stats in his normal role to win it before he leaves.

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Re: Heisman lost credibility when Peyton Manning lost


Posted: Dec 4, 2018 3:33 PM
 

Tua didn't play at all in Q4 this year, and has been the front runner all year. I think TL could do the same thing next year. What I fear, is that TL & ETN will both be leading candidates ... and 2 legit candidates on the same team would likely dilute the vote and keep either from winning.

2019 purple level member

I'm sure I'm in the minority but i didn't think Watson


Posted: Dec 4, 2018 3:38 PM
 

should've won either year. I think he actually had a better case in 2015 than 2016, but i would've gone with McCaffrey and Jackson.


You may see Etienne and TL win it in back-to-back years***

[1]
Posted: Dec 4, 2018 11:27 AM
 



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Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together.


Agree with that


Posted: Dec 5, 2018 9:49 AM
 

I think TL wins it two years in a row.

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Re: Heisman Winner at Clemson

[3]
Posted: Dec 4, 2018 11:29 AM
 

In 2016 Louisville had a Heisman Trophy winner; Clemson had a National Championship. I'm OK with that trend.


Re: Heisman Winner at Clemson


Posted: Dec 4, 2018 3:36 PM
 

Of course we would all pick a national title over a Heisman if we had to pick either-or. Given that they are not mutually exclusive I say why not win both of them in 2019 and again in 2020?

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Re: Heisman Winner at Clemson


Posted: Dec 4, 2018 11:46 AM
 

Tua is a legitimate candidate (even if the loses narrowly to Kyler Murray) and he didn't take a 4th quarter snap except in a few games this year. Tua was probably even a lock before the Georgia game.

Trevor Lawrence could definitely win without padding his stats. With our defensive losses this year, we might need some padding next year too.

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I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and doggone it, people like me.


Re: Heisman Winner at Clemson


Posted: Dec 4, 2018 11:57 AM
 

Good Point!


TWG

Will Tua get daddy's belt if he doesn't win the Heisman?


Posted: Dec 4, 2018 12:51 PM
 

Gotta beat em' into submission.


Dabo doesn't want his players subjected to

[2]
Posted: Dec 4, 2018 12:47 PM
 

those horrible Heisman House commercials.

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I will never buy a Nissan


Posted: Dec 4, 2018 12:50 PM
 

Just sayin’

2019 white level member

I dont give a #### about that hood ornament anymore


Posted: Dec 4, 2018 12:52 PM
 

Deshaun was snubbed, TWICE. Its a complete joke and needs to go away.


Dabo is about TEAM goals, not individual goals

[2]
Posted: Dec 4, 2018 1:55 PM
 

Clemson has now risen to a level that allows Dabo to play 2nd/3rd/4th strings in most every game Clemson plays. I love that everyone gets to play, but that hurts the numbers of our stars like Travis ETN and TL16. They just cannot put up video game numbers necessary because the TEAM is just too good and their numbers will not be as good as they could be.

DW4 deserved the trophy, but Lamar got it due to putting up video game numbers... mostly against crappy defenses. Watson not winning let me know that the Heisman is not about anything more than huge numbers no matter the timing or competition.

Now, ETN put up 21 rushing TD's this year which is incredible, but Clemson had 45 rushing TD's this year which means ETN did not even get half that number. His yardage takes a big hit when you have 4 really good running backs that want and deserve to play. ETN is the best running back in the country, my opinion but that is backed by solid facts and video.

Trevor had a monster freshman season! But again, with him playing only 65-70% of snaps it is hard to put up huge numbers that the Heisman folks like to see. Chase will see a lot of action next year as he should, he is a heckuva player and I was really impressed with his ability and the way he progressed through the year. I foresee Trevor putting number such as this next year based on playing time I expect him to get - 33 TD's, 3,400 yards, 6 INT's, 70% of snaps. He is REALLY GOOD!! Someone will hit 40+ TD's, 4,000+ yards, win games 54-49 due to no defense and player getting 90% + percent of snaps. Heisman is mostly about numbers and a little about winning, not likely to happen with SOOOO much talent at Clemson.

Dabo believes in team, team wins not individuals and I LOVE that about Dabo. The Heisman is a prestigious award of course, but Clemson is bigger than the one individual player. I hope we play every available player every single game because that is what makes Dabo and this team so awesome. The Heisman is truly meaningless in the grand scheme of things, it has no value to be honest. They are a LOT of great players in college football all over the country. My preference as a fan is to take National Championships and build another Oculus, and then another Oculus, to house the College Football Championship Trophy!!!


Re: Heisman Winner at Clemson


Posted: Dec 4, 2018 2:43 PM
 

A coach basically has to decide getting a particular player a Heisman is a priority and call plays with that in mind. So if he wanted TL to win the Heisman, there would be a lot more TD passes of less than 10 yards and he wouldn’t be pulled in the 3rd quarter of games when up big. So it’s nit going to ever happen under Dabo.


Re: Heisman Winner at Clemson


Posted: Dec 4, 2018 3:48 PM
 

That sentiment is typically true in the case of a non-QB, but when a QB wins the award it doesn't require the intentional padding of stats. Tua could very well win it this year over Kyler and he has only taken a handful of 4th quarter snaps all year.

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My sentiment is Tua probably deserves it this year


Posted: Dec 4, 2018 4:00 PM
 

What an incredible year. Yea Murray has nice stats, but also played a lot more like you say. It is possible for TL16 to get it and hope he does, but knowing Dabo and his liking to spread the ball around everywhere, no Clemson player has much chance to win it... DW4 was best chance and he had huge stats, only QB EVER to hit 4,000 pass yards and 1,000 rush yards... CRAZY!!


A Heisman winner for us would be a huge longshot. Not


Posted: Dec 5, 2018 10:09 AM
 

because we won't have deserving players, but because of the system we run, where Dabo plays everybody. Heismans are won by players who almost singlehandedly had to carry their teams. (See Johnny Manziel and Lamar Jackson). Or, they had stats at their position that were so far ahead of everyone else that it was a no brainer. I don't see that happening for one of our players, unless Dabo were to make a concerted effort to allow it to happen. If Trevor gets off to a truly blazing start next year or the following year, it could happen. Dethroning BAMA as National Champions this year would go a long way to lay the foundation for that. Clemson / Bama tied 2-2 after 4 meetings in the playoffs would certainly make the pundits reassess positions, I do believe, vs 1-3. Especially this year, since we all know this Bama team is the greatest of all time. (Has to be, ESecPN said so!)

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I believe Lawrence has a VERY GOOD shot at winning!***


Posted: Dec 5, 2018 6:24 PM
 




Re: Heisman Winner at Clemson


Posted: Dec 5, 2018 6:57 PM
 

I think TL has a shot. It’s basically a QB award at this point and he can be a superstar and put up big numbers in our offense. I didn’t think ETN will get there because the only way for an RB to win is to touch the ball a lot! That won’t happen in our system.


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