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All-In [43992]
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Clemson spends far less on basketball than just about anyone
Feb 20, 2019, 11:39 PM
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else in the ACC.
Here are the amounts spent by each ACC school, based on the last completed season (2017-2018):
Duke $19,507,686
Louisville $17,065,364
Syracuse $13,260,311
Florida State $11,029,101
North Carolina $10,293,415
Virginia Tech $9,892,883
NC State $9,638,081
Pittsburgh $9,565,269
Georgia Tech $8,891,673
Virginia $8,555,125
Wake Forest $7,905,825
Miami $7,547,589
Notre Dame $6,793,853
Clemson $6,329,356
Boston College $6,212,181
Here is the link which shows these values, as well as the annual expenditures for teams from other conferences as well:
https://www.midmajormadness.com/2018/6/11/17441968/ncaa-revenue-expense-statistics-college-basketball-2016-gonzaga-mid-major
This puts us at 70th nationally in basketball budget, in case you were wondering.
As you can see, we don't spend much on basketball at Clemson. In case you missed that, I will repeat it again: We don't spend much on basketball at Clemson.
Our lack of funding for basketball means that our program is at a considerable disadvantage when it comes to all aspects of the program. Please keep important details like this in mind before you trash our coach and players, all of whom are working their butts off by the way.
If you don't like the results we are getting, then I would recommend that you encourage our athletic department to spend more on basketball in order to give our program a more level playing field.
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Trainer [32]
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Re: Clemson spends far less on basketball than just about anyone
Feb 20, 2019, 11:45 PM
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didn't we just spend 65 million on upgrading facilities for Brown L to recruit or am i crazy? Havent seen a whole lot of results out of that expenditure. i bet if you add in that cost over what these other programs spend in a year we are in the top half.
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All-In [43992]
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I don't know how facility expenditures are counted.
Feb 20, 2019, 11:57 PM
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My guess is that the cost is divided over a period of years as the loans are paid off. That should be reflected in the above budgets.
As usual, what seems like a lot to Clemson fans when it comes to basketball facility spending is not that much in comparison to what many other schools have spent and are spending on facilities.
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All-TigerNet [13693]
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Re: I don't know how facility expenditures are counted.
Feb 21, 2019, 12:06 AM
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As I read this data and the article, the numbers apply only to expenses. The facility upgrade would be considered a capital expenditure and is not included in this data.
From an accounting standpoint, capital is always separated from expense for tax purposes, depreciation, etc.
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CU Guru [1665]
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^^This^^. That fact puts a pretty big dent in the original
Feb 21, 2019, 8:08 PM
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argument.
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All-In [43992]
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It doesn’t put a dent in anything.
Feb 21, 2019, 9:03 PM
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We spent $65 million on the recent facility renovations. For reference, Virginia spent $131 million on their arena - which was completed in 2006. That amounts to $178 million in 2019 dollars.
Your post illustrates the problem with Clemson fans and basketball. You think we spent a lot on the facilities, but in reality we didn’t.
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110%er [7219]
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Re: It doesn’t put a dent in anything.
Feb 22, 2019, 4:05 AM
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Not spending anything on facilities for basketball would have made more sense.
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110%er [7219]
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Re: It doesn’t put a dent in anything.
Feb 22, 2019, 4:17 AM
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How much does Wofford spend? That’s what we should be spending. I like their results.
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Letterman [251]
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Re: It doesn’t put a dent in anything.
Feb 22, 2019, 5:26 AM
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Maybe we could play woffords schedule too.
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110%er [8866]
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Legend [17246]
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110%er [7718]
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Orange Blooded [3823]
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Re: Clemson spends far less on basketball than just about anyone
Feb 20, 2019, 11:46 PM
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Does the $63.5M we just spent on basketball facilities not count?
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All-In [43992]
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I'm sure it counts, but that's paid off over many years
Feb 20, 2019, 11:58 PM
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and not in one lump sum.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Clemson spends far less on basketball than just about anyone
Feb 21, 2019, 7:54 AM
[ in reply to Re: Clemson spends far less on basketball than just about anyone ] |
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As folks said, not one lump sum... and it was not for Mens Basketball only. At the end of the day, it is a shared space. When is the last time you saw a career fair, science fair, education fair, health fair, moviefest or even a concert in Memorial Stadium?
That 65m was not just for basketball... nor was that 65m to go ahead... it was to catch up.
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Freshman [9]
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Re: Clemson spends far less on basketball than just about anyone
Feb 20, 2019, 11:55 PM
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Is it me or does anyone else think this Judge Keller is brownL’s burner account?
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All-In [43992]
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Don't you have any thoughts on the data I posted above?***
Feb 20, 2019, 11:58 PM
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110%er [9666]
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Okay. Here’s one you can chew on...
Feb 21, 2019, 1:14 PM
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How the hell is Virginia so good?
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All-In [43992]
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Have you seen UVA's facilities?
Feb 21, 2019, 2:25 PM
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John Paul Jones arena was completed in 2006, at a cost of $131 million. That equates to $178 million today. That is well more than the $63.5 million renovation we just did of Littlejohn.
UVA basketball also has a proud tradition, and the collection of college basketball talent in the state of Virginia is far superior to what is in SC.
This is not to discount the great job Tony Bennett has done, but let's not act like he has done it with the disadvantages Brownell has had.
When will you stop trying to reduce the success or failure of college basketball programs to the coach alone? A lot of factors go into it.
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110%er [9666]
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You reduced it to how much money is spent. So...
Feb 21, 2019, 2:57 PM
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I was asking how UVa is so good when they are wayyy below many other schools and not much more than Clemson. So now I’m wondering what your point was with the list that you dug up for us.
And you somehow forget that Littlejohn has just been gutted and completely rebuilt.
Can you please tell us what kinds of features the new Littlejohn is missing? Are there some things that were omitted that would have magically helped Brad win a bunch of games?
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All-In [43992]
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Did you also ask yourself why we are so much better
Feb 21, 2019, 3:07 PM
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than several schools who spend more on basketball than we do?
It goes both ways.
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110%er [9666]
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So... what you’re saying is that it doesn’t matter.
Feb 21, 2019, 4:11 PM
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Got it.
And could you answer the question about what magical features the new Littlejohn is missing? I’d love to know.
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Orange Blooded [2403]
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Oculus Spirit [76733]
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Re: You reduced it to how much money is spent. So...
Feb 21, 2019, 6:30 PM
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Lol Pete!
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110%er [7718]
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Oculus Spirit [76733]
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Freshman [9]
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Re: Clemson spends far less on basketball than just about anyone
Feb 20, 2019, 11:56 PM
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Stop complaining about funding (the school just gave you a palace to work out of) and go get in the film room you have a lot of work to do.
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All-In [43992]
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Denying the facts won't change them.
Feb 21, 2019, 12:01 AM
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Keep looking for that next up-and-coming basketball coach to magically turn our program around, and in the rare chance he is successful, good luck keeping him.
P.S. Prospective head coaches and their agents are very aware of the above numbers. If you've ever wondered why Clemson seems to be unable to hire their top basketball coaching candidates, there's your answer.
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110%er [6280]
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Re: Clemson spends far less on basketball than just about anyone
Feb 21, 2019, 12:03 AM
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I believe the money from the other schools are going to better coaches. So if our AD spends more money on basketball it will be on a better coach who will cost more. So you are correct.
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All-In [43992]
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I think that is a necessary step when we hire our next coach
Feb 21, 2019, 12:06 AM
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I keep reading about "how much we are paying Brownell," but among ACC coaches, he's middle of the pack when it comes to salary.
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110%er [6280]
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Re: I think that is a necessary step when we hire our next coach
Feb 21, 2019, 1:01 PM
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Yes if we want to win its going to take money. I like BB tho and I hope we go on a run and turn this season around but it just seems like it is time to me. I have held off about as long as I can.
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110%er [7219]
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110%er [8866]
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Re: Clemson spends far less on basketball than just about anyone
Feb 21, 2019, 12:04 AM
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This won’t go over well. I ventured there yesterday. I agree
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All-In [43992]
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I agree.
Feb 21, 2019, 12:07 AM
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The truth needs to be publicized though.
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CU Guru [1105]
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Mbball is maybe the 4th most popular sport at Clemson...
Feb 21, 2019, 12:05 AM
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soon to be 5th once softball starts. If those numbers are correct, it seems like we're actually spending too much.
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All-In [43992]
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Basketball is easily the second most popular sport on campus
Feb 21, 2019, 12:08 AM
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The problem is that it's a distant second to football, and our athletic department has historically seemed determined to spend as little as possible on it.
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CU Guru [1105]
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Nope
Feb 21, 2019, 12:12 AM
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It's 1.Football 2. Baseball 3. Complaining about current basketball coach 4. Softball 5. Mbball
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Nope
Feb 21, 2019, 7:28 AM
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Soccer is #3, we support soccer. 2 natties and 2 NC appearances.
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110%er [5121]
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Baseball? Yeah, not really. I know exactly one family
Feb 21, 2019, 9:05 AM
[ in reply to Nope ] |
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that goes to any baseball games. One. Personally I care as much about rowing as baseball.
I haven’t been to a baseball game since 1988. Didn’t care then but a buddy talked me into going.
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CU Medallion [60205]
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in my office one person goes to basketball games
Feb 21, 2019, 6:33 PM
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on a regular basis. Five go to baseball games.
In my little corner of the world, Clemson baseball is way more popular than Clemson basketball.
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110%er [7718]
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Re: Nope
Feb 21, 2019, 2:13 PM
[ in reply to Nope ] |
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lol if you think Softball is going to be anywhere close to Baseball or Basketball.
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Rock Defender [53]
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According to that site, baseball is a losing sport for us
Feb 21, 2019, 2:20 PM
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110%er [8866]
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Re: Mbball is maybe the 4th most popular sport at Clemson...
Feb 21, 2019, 4:18 PM
[ in reply to Mbball is maybe the 4th most popular sport at Clemson... ] |
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Football and basketball are typically the sports that bring revenue into the school to pay for all of the other sports men’s and women’s
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Hall of Famer [24846]
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more proof that Tony Bennett is a wizard***
Feb 21, 2019, 12:06 AM
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All-In [43992]
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He is an excellent coach.***
Feb 21, 2019, 12:10 AM
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CU Medallion [67693]
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Re: He is an excellent coach. PLus a wonderful singer
Feb 21, 2019, 10:07 AM
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and talented artist
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CU Guru [1536]
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Re: Clemson spends far less on basketball than just about anyone
Feb 21, 2019, 12:09 AM
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Serious question, what do you think we should spend more money on to help our basketball program pull in better players?? WHY is that what u got to every time...money. What is so hard about accepting the fact that BB is a standup guy and a guy I personally love representing Clemson , but maybe he’s just not cut out for ACC basketball ... nothing wrong with that. Have you seen VT gym it literally looks like a high school gym and I don’t even know if it has AC with those hug fans lol. THeres a correlation... they hired a really good coach... FSU another “football” school that seems to be recruiting great and what kind of tradition do they have , or Miami for that matter ... I know they are down this year but they have had a really good run the last few years .
Also in those expenses I’m sure it includes head coaching and assistant salaries which guarantee is over 60% of that duke number in which they have earned...I’d guess BB is about middle of the pack in the ACC in salary maybe 6-7th which most would argue he doesn’t deserve
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110%er [8866]
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Re: Clemson spends far less on basketball than just about anyone
Feb 21, 2019, 12:11 AM
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Recruiting assistants, marketing assistants, etc
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CU Guru [1536]
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Re: Clemson spends far less on basketball than just about anyone
Feb 21, 2019, 12:16 AM
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And how would these assistants add value just curious ?
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All-In [43992]
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If you don't know the answer, there is no helping you.***
Feb 21, 2019, 2:28 PM
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110%er [8866]
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Re: Clemson spends far less on basketball than just about anyone
Feb 21, 2019, 4:22 PM
[ in reply to Re: Clemson spends far less on basketball than just about anyone ] |
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How the hell fo they add value to our football team. Football has dozens of assistants and analyst. Basketball don’t need as many but they certainly deserve more support from the administration than they get
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All-TigerNet [13693]
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Re: Clemson spends far less on basketball than just about anyone
Feb 21, 2019, 12:27 AM
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I appreciate this data and article you shared.
I personally haven’t seen any measurable progress over Brad’s tenure when just measuring wins and losses, and that principly drives my POV.
To several roiled into this topic, Judge here has provided real data. You may disagree with his conclusions of what it means, but it IS data. Some of the collective pulses out there in these responses suggest you’re not interested in fact based debate, but rather just wanna take a shot. Not sure how many are trolls or just spoiled snotty little sh**s.
At least Judge brought something informative whether or not I entirely agree with his conclusions.
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Rock Defender [53]
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That's an interesting website
Feb 21, 2019, 12:42 AM
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110%er [6825]
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Re: That's an interesting website
Feb 21, 2019, 7:50 AM
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1) We are in a smaller state with less national "branding". That is changing but you literally had a era of "great" FSU football to sell a lot of bandwagon fans for 30+ years. Shoot, it was closer to 40 years. Thus the 'native' home market is larger for FSU being in a state of 20 million as compared 5 million in SC so FSU literally has 4X the potential instate fanbase. As far as national branding, winning for a long time helps. For example, a kid I just recently hired was an FSU fan. He lived in NC his whole life and "if" you wanted to follow a "winning" team on tv, FSU was the choice. It is why there are a lot of old ND fans remembering the good old days.
No worries, this is changing. We are building that "success".
2)We don't support "other sports" well. We don't have the ambient population. Ok, Baseball and Soccer are decent, but we are all-in for football. Next, we are one of the only "rural" schools in the conference. VT is the only other 'rural' but they still have over 40K in the "town" of Blacksburg. When you are in the ATL, Tally, Raleigh/Triangle... you just have a bigger pool of folks that like the "other". UVA is the odd-ball but really they are the inverse to us. Knowing they can't really compete in Football, they invested elsewhere and it shows.
As for Women's sports... good question, other than that other schools like UNC soccer tossed tons of money at the program at the right time, rifled off 10+ NC and built a base. Now, their womens soccer can basically print money in a sport that doesn't really make a lot. My brother is a head womens soccer coach and he is very aware of this. Although at a D3 (private) school, they spend more money on soccer than many D1 programs and have better facilities. Heck, it is not far behind some ACC schools. For whatever reason, donor, pet project, some schools will pick a sport and invest. We did that... it was Football and that focus started in the mid-2000s.
UVA Basketball... they got lucky, like we got Dabo lucky. Bennett was initially not going to take UVA, but Washington State cutting costs (travel, perks, bonuses) and his wife from back east (NC) caused him to reconsider.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Thanks for the reply and I think you are right
Feb 21, 2019, 1:56 PM
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All-In [43992]
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This explains why most other ACC schools have more sports
Feb 21, 2019, 2:32 PM
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than we do. I'm sure it partly relates to total student enrollment as well. Clemson is a small school relative to some of the large state schools like UNC, FSU, etc.
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All-TigerNet [13693]
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Re: That's an interesting website
Feb 21, 2019, 5:43 PM
[ in reply to Re: That's an interesting website ] |
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Excellent points here. I’d love to see this data as a running trend over that last 10-years. All of us have “felt” the results of Dabo’s success in turning Clemson into a national brand. Would love to see what that means this far in numbers-
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Rock Defender [53]
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You can get annual numbers going all the way back to 2003
Feb 21, 2019, 7:25 PM
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CU Guru [1779]
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No disputing those numbers and part of the argument
Feb 21, 2019, 2:55 AM
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to the need for spending more money is recruiting. However, several have also argued that BB has recruited as well as Barnes, OP, etc... If that's the case, you can't say it's all about the money when he has not been able to have consistent success. I'm not arguing that we don't need to spend more money on the basketball program but that can't just be an all covering excuse for Brad. I can't believe that the 3 mill difference between us and Virginia is the difference in not making the tourney and being a top 5 team in the country.
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All-TigerNet [13879]
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Seems Georgia Tech, NC State and Pitt are getting screwed.***
Feb 21, 2019, 3:56 AM
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CU Guru [1105]
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All of those are urban schools where the cost of living is higher than SC***
Feb 21, 2019, 9:38 AM
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CU Guru [1849]
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What does Duke spend $19mill/year on?!?! I mean a big chunk
Feb 21, 2019, 4:12 AM
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of that is player “salaries”. Coaches salary? Practice facility upgrades? Are they counting tuition in this? I’m sure the google will know more about this.
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Orange Blooded [4754]
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Re: Clemson spends far less on basketball than just about anyone
Feb 21, 2019, 6:51 AM
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How much would it cost to send Brownlee to some sort of "How to recruit better basketball players" seminar some where? I'm sure our budget could afford it if this much needed forum actually exists.
Another budget friendly item to consider.....Dale Carnegie training for all those in basketball operations.
This is business and it's about selling. Dabo figured that out a long time ago.
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Orange Blooded [2336]
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Re: Clemson spends far less on basketball than just about anyone
Feb 21, 2019, 7:35 AM
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As anyone thought about how hard it is for Clemson to recruit against the big boys of the ACC. When is the last time we had evens four star. Look at football and think about Duke recruiting against us and what they spend. Flip that to BB and it turns on us.
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CU Guru [1779]
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Not that simple IMHO. I don't think Brad is recruiting
Feb 21, 2019, 9:10 AM
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against Duke, UNC, Louisville, Kentucky, etc... Most of the guys their signing probably don't even know Clemson has a basketball team. It's a level or a level and a half down from those guys that we're after. Also remember his like Spiller, Watkins, Hopkins, Boyd all signed in Football before we were on the national stage and had all the new upgrades. Not saying it's a totally fair comparison because football still ruled at Clemson, but not in the national stage it is now.
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Orange Blooded [2336]
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Re: Clemson spends far less on basketball than just about anyone
Feb 21, 2019, 7:35 AM
[ in reply to Re: Clemson spends far less on basketball than just about anyone ] |
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As anyone thought about how hard it is for Clemson to recruit against the big boys of the ACC. When is the last time we had evens four star. Look at football and think about Duke recruiting against us and what they spend. Flip that to BB and it turns on us.
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All-In [43992]
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We have been signing more 4 stars lately.
Feb 21, 2019, 2:38 PM
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The last few cycles, our 4 stars have been:
2019 Al-Amir Dawes
2018 Hunter Tyson
2017 Aamir Simms
2016 Elijah Thomas, Shelton Mitchell
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Orange Blooded [4968]
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Re: We have been signing more 4 stars lately.
Feb 21, 2019, 6:59 PM
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If Thomas, Mitchell, and Reed had been true freshman for the 2016 recruiting class the Outlook would be much better.
It surprised me that the class Simms came in wasn't better overall. I thought Clemson BB had caught on then.
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110%er [6582]
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? is has BB requested added $$ and told no by AD
Feb 21, 2019, 7:47 AM
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If so, its on our AD's commitment to bball. If its a case where they are giving him everything he asks for and he simply isnt asking for the right things, then its on him for not realizing what he needs and making it happen.
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All-In [43992]
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Yes, Brad has been asking for more $$ for the program
Feb 21, 2019, 2:42 PM
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his entire tenure at Clemson.
He asked for facility upgrades and was told that he would have to help raise the money. He met with donors himself, raised the money, and was then told that it actually wouldn't be a new arena as planned but a renovation of the existing arena.
He asked for additional budget for assistant salaries for several years, after losing several top assistants on staff to head coaching jobs. He found that it was difficult to bring on new quality assistants with the budget he was given. Part of Brad's meeting in 2017 with DRad involved Brad agreeing to a reduced buyout in exchange for a higher assistant coach budget.
He asked for additional support staff for recruiting, operations, social media, etc. for years. He finally got some of those positions a couple of years ago.
What if he had been given these things, which aren't much to ask, in year 2 or 3 instead of years 6, 7, and 8? This is why I get frustrated when people talk about Brad "having 9 years here." Well, yes and no.
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110%er [8866]
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Re: Yes, Brad has been asking for more $$ for the program
Feb 21, 2019, 4:32 PM
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That right there sums it up.
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Orange Blooded [2531]
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That include shoes?
Feb 21, 2019, 7:48 AM
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110%er [9089]
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And yet we've never had a player that had a
Feb 21, 2019, 8:21 AM
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blown out shoe..... Just sayin.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Clemson spends far less on basketball than just about anyone
Feb 21, 2019, 8:33 AM
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What many people refuse to accept is that the CLEMSON Admin treats BBall like a business. They fully understand that there is a small group of fans that will accept whatever CLEMSON puts on the floor for BBall, regardless of their success. That group will make excuses and try their best to justify the Admin's decisions, despite any and all failures. This method of operation has continued for at least 50 years, and the CLEMSON diehard fans cannot see thru their scheme. It's BUSINESS, and it ain't gonna change in your lifetime. Change starts at the top, and the business will continue as planned. Deal with it, or wake up and move on.
We have #1 in FOOTBALL, and a pretty good bball team, plus some other sports. It's all good.
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110%er [8866]
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Re: Clemson spends far less on basketball than just about anyone
Feb 21, 2019, 4:35 PM
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Perhaps donors and IPTAY members could write it contact the AD’s office, President and board of Trustees to address some of these things instead of writing, calling etc to complain about the coach only
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CU Medallion [67693]
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Re: Clemson spends far less on basketball than just about anyone
Feb 21, 2019, 8:34 AM
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At least Nike is sending us the good shoes so far though
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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So we're 8th in revenue and 14th in expenses not counting
Feb 21, 2019, 8:56 AM
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the LJC renovations. Meanwhile Notre Dame, who spends about the same amount on basketball as we do has been to the NCAA tournament 3 out of the last 4 years. Mike Brey has made the tournament at Notre Dame 12 times in 18 years, and when not making the NCAA, he was in the NIT 5 out of those 6 years.
We're not getting similar results. Although to be fair, they were in the NIT last year while we went to the Sweet 16.
Honestly, spending is definitely a factor, although this data doesn't show what we actually spend on men's basketball. My question would be, what creates the difference in spending between Virginia and Clemson? They spend ~$2.2M more than we do and have been one of the top teams in the country for several years. So in your opinion, if we spent another $2.2M/year on men's basketball, do you think Brad Brownell would have us in a similar position as Tony Bennett at UVA?
Keep in mind Brad Brownell makes more money at a $2.5M base salary than Tony Bennett's combined base salary plus supplemental compensation from sponsors and donors (total of ~$2.3M last year). Last year UVA actually paid Tony Bennett a base salary of $441,000, a year in which they won the ACC.
So...is it the extra $2.2M in men's basketball expenses that makes UVA successful or is it coaching?
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CU Guru [1779]
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Good point on both ND and Virginia. I agree more money
Feb 21, 2019, 9:15 AM
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could be poured into the program but I just don't think it's the be all to end all excuse for BB' s lack of consistent success over 9 years.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: So we're 8th in revenue and 14th in expenses not counting
Feb 21, 2019, 10:31 AM
[ in reply to So we're 8th in revenue and 14th in expenses not counting ] |
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Keep in mind that Notre Dame does have a basketball hotbed (Chicago) as a next-door recruiting ground with less "elite" programs in immediate competition. Actually, they have a few potential urban areas they can siphon off. Sure they have Indiana but they have not been relevant since NC State ...
2.2 million is still spending nearly 50% more. Maybe.
As for Virginia, they got lucky. Bennett has been found money -so to speak. He was going great things at Wazzu but they decided to make cuts to the program... and boom, UVA got a steal. Next, Virgina is also in a better recruiting area. Likely, they are now able to capitalize from Maryland departure ("Southern" school able to pull from the NE). They can siphon off better recruiting area (The NY/DC corridor. There is a reason their top talent is from NY, PA, and IN. Maryland used to own this ability but now selling kids to play against Rutgers and PedState is harder than selling NE talent on playing Duke, Cheat. Plus, you don't have to worry about UVA celebrating the football team during a basketball halftime and getting a bigger cheer.
As far as salary, I think we pay more as a base to "keep someone" with less actual expectation they will get any post-season bonus. Our geography is against us for basketball... but makes us a prime football location. BB, his agent and the AD know this and have set up the contract for that.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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Interesting point about nearby recruiting
Feb 21, 2019, 10:58 AM
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hotbeds for Notre Dame and Virginia, so I looked at both teams' rosters...
Notre Dame has 1 player from Illinois who is a walk-on. They have 0 players from Indiana
UVA has 2 players from Virginia (both from Charlottesville). One of them is a walk-on and the other averages 3 minutes per game. You mention the NY/DC corridor, which is a good point, but Indiana is not part of that corridor.
I actually think CBB has done a good job with getting players from different regions and internationally. Looking at our best players, they are from SC, NC, TX, MD, VA and I'll throw in Croatia.
As much as geography has been used as an excuse for CBB over the last 9 years, I really don't think that's valid.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Interesting point about nearby recruiting
Feb 21, 2019, 11:44 AM
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There is always going to be some flex with where the kids are from and you will have odd shifts here/there like kids from MD going to Notre Dame... but the coach is from that area. Still, it is their recruiting base area, not the final result. Maybe not the best example considering ND's national ability to pull talent, but Bennett recruits well from Charlotte too, but he spent time there.
But here, one of ND's break out seasons (with Brey's recruited kids) was 2006-07-08 where they had two NBA level talents from IN. prior to that, he won with Dorthy kids and then slumped. Then he had Jack Cooley from Chi as well. The base is where you can build from and then augment from a larger area. Take Booker, an under-recruited "local" NBA talent. That is where program build from but OP left. Actually that is the story of even Barnes and Buckner. We have that program-changing talent develop only to lose both the talent and coach... a hard reset for the program.
Geography is a factor to an extent as it isn't a natural hotbed combined with a lot of immediate competition. We just are not competitive with the Nawthern Carolinas for resources, and pulling talent from elsewere like Tree, Buckner is a lot harder with the rise of the mid-majors (VCU) with better bases.
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All-In [43992]
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I'm not sure why you are focusing on UVA and ND
Feb 21, 2019, 2:48 PM
[ in reply to So we're 8th in revenue and 14th in expenses not counting ] |
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and not also focusing on the programs that spend more on basketball than we do with worse results.
Overall, when I look at expenditures, I see us getting a good return on our investment based on how we've done under Brownell. I can't help but wonder how we would do with more investment in our program.
Let's not forget that UVA and ND both have far superior basketball histories and fan support than Clemson, and are also located in areas with more basketball talent. That makes those coaching jobs much easier IMO.
Obviously Bennett and Brey are excellent coaches. Clemson could try to find that diamond in the rough superstar coach, hope he is successful at Clemson, and hope that he wants to stay, but the more logical route would be to actually hire a coach who has been successful in major college basketball from the outset. No guarantees either way, but it seems to be a safer bet.
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110%er [7157]
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I agree with you. Brownell does get more out of what he has
Feb 21, 2019, 9:51 AM
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to work with than he should. He has consistently kept us mid pack of the ACC instead of bottom dwelling like WAke or BC every year. And his recruiting isn't close to on par with VT, FSU,NCSU which is who we are sharing the mid pack area with. So i'll give him those kudo's for sure and always have.
Like i've said over and over. For Clemson fans you got 3 options;
-Go hire a sure thing up and comer that will put together 3 good years and take us to great heights but will leave for greener pastures after his brief stint here...leaving us without many options
-Remain with a competent x' and o's guy in Brownell and stay in that mid tier level with ups and downs of being inconsistent due to the 3 star caliber recruiting level.
-Roll the dice with another guy who did well in his MAC or Mid Level team (as was Brownell) who can either excel beyond what we have or fall deep below where we are now.
As you can see...we don't ever have very good options here. Our good options usually leave right about the time we're turning the corner and our bad options fail miserably and we're in the ACC play-in game every year.
But if there's a way to get a Tom Crean like UGA did or a Buzz Williams like VT did then by all means go make the offer. But if we're hiring Furman's coach b/c his team beat Villanova then...reconsider keeping what we have.
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CU Guru [1779]
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" . Our good options usually leave right about the time we're turning the corner "
Feb 21, 2019, 10:07 AM
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I think the point we screwed up was when Barnes left. That was the time to spend some money while riding his successful years. Instead, we sat on our hands and went on the cheap and hired Shyatt. Killing any momentum the program could have started.
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Hall of Famer [22127]
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Re: I agree with you. Brownell does get more out of what he has
Feb 21, 2019, 12:20 PM
[ in reply to I agree with you. Brownell does get more out of what he has ] |
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Haven't most of the hires over the years been the "sure thing", a coach who was going to lead us out of the basketball wilderness? I don't ever recall us hiring a coach who we thought was going to be a "sure loser".
If the amount of money for the program was not a factor, where would we spend it? Our facilities appear to be adequate for the near future. There is no guarantee a "name coach" demanding a high salary would make us a winner. Our being in a non metropolitan area has sometimes been seen as an excuse for our not attracting recruits who prefer the "big city" environment. I really don't know if that's a valid excuse. It doesn't appear to affect our football recruiting.
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110%er [9666]
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Is this your full-time job?
Feb 21, 2019, 1:06 PM
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I mean... making excuses for Brad.
Or are you actually Brad?
Because I think it’s one of the two.
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All-TigerNet [13693]
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Re: Is this your full-time job?
Feb 21, 2019, 1:13 PM
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I find this thread to be the most informative of any I’ve read in weeks.
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110%er [7718]
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Re: Is this your full-time job?
Feb 21, 2019, 2:15 PM
[ in reply to Is this your full-time job? ] |
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Can't argue with the data provided so you attack the person...
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110%er [9666]
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Actually not really. Read the thread.
Feb 21, 2019, 4:28 PM
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He posts this wonderful data, and then bends over backwards to explain why it really doesn’t matter. He may not realize that’s what he’s doing, but he is.
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110%er [7718]
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Re: Actually not really. Read the thread.
Feb 21, 2019, 4:37 PM
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No that is 100% what you just did.
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110%er [9666]
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Wait. I posted the data, and then contradicted it?
Feb 22, 2019, 3:51 AM
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Hmmmm... ????
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All-In [43992]
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I assumed that anyone who truly loves Clemson
Feb 21, 2019, 3:05 PM
[ in reply to Is this your full-time job? ] |
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and cares about our basketball program would be interested in seeing how we stack up in terms of what we spend on basketball. I found the information to be very enlightening.
For all the time you spend whining, complaining, and being negative about our coach, players, and program, it seems that you would be interested in knowing this data too.
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110%er [6095]
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We should spend less on basketball
Feb 21, 2019, 1:13 PM
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Dabo showed money not always the answer. Just need a young, energetic coach who believes
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110%er [6825]
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Re: We should spend less on basketball
Feb 21, 2019, 3:00 PM
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Yeah, even with the "Dabo discount" we ranked 4th in spending for football. VT, FSU, and maybe Cheat out spent us Dabo's first year. We went from 3rd at $61m to 4th $57m. You also had a near decade in re-investment in the program's facilities under Bowden.
Worse, the dabo discount was $4 million... the same as the entire basketball outlay for OP.
Both programs are actually punching above their weight... football is a "god" in titan size, while the basketball program is slightly taller than average in a toddler suit.
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All-In [27366]
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Gonzaga University 7,261,657
Feb 21, 2019, 2:06 PM
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That extra mill must be the ticket.
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All-In [43992]
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It's obvious that you aren't interested in real discussion
Feb 21, 2019, 3:08 PM
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about our basketball program. I get it, it's easier to whine and complain than to analyze and propose solutions.
Carry on...
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110%er [9666]
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It’s obvious you don’t like to be challenged.***
Feb 21, 2019, 4:38 PM
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All-In [43992]
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If I wasn’t comfortable being challenged
Feb 21, 2019, 9:00 PM
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I certainly wouldn’t post the truth about our basketball program on a message board filled with people who have mostly made up their minds about our coach being awful.
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110%er [9666]
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And you have made up your mind
Feb 22, 2019, 12:09 PM
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that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong and not capable of having a discussion.
Hmmmm....
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All-In [43992]
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Yes, I have made up my mind
Feb 22, 2019, 1:14 PM
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about our basketball program needing much better support from our administration. The numbers show that we get very little financial support in comparison to most of the teams we compete against.
I don't think it's fair to ask our coach to show up to a fight with one hand tied behind his back, and then expect him to usually win that fight. I happen to think Brad is a great coach who can be very successful at Clemson, but we don't really know whether that is true or not because we haven't given him what he needs.
Sure, you can cite short-term success that Barnes and Purnell had as examples of what coaches can accomplish, but it's pure conjecture to say that they would've continued their success. Based on what Shyatt and Brownell faced in year two, the talent level dropped and that is a direct result of what Barnes and Purnell left their successors with. We simply don't know how Barnes or Purnell would've done, but my belief is that both left because they experienced poor administrative support for basketball, and also saw how that affected their ability to do their jobs (mainly when it came to recruiting). Both left while they were hot commodities. My guess is that if they had stayed, they would've experienced some down years and our fan base would've become very frustrated with them - and probably blamed them for our woes and called for their firing. Rinse and repeat.
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All-TigerNet [14451]
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Re: Clemson spends far less on basketball than just about anyone
Feb 21, 2019, 2:55 PM
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plus we dont cheat. that is a big problem if you want to keep up.
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All-TigerNet [10871]
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I don’t think we can completely blame it on funding either...
Feb 21, 2019, 4:56 PM
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There are many programs with large budgets that are irrelevant in their sport at the moment. I think it’s more fair to say it’s a combination of issues and maybe not solely one variable.
I’m a firm believer it’s often more the Jimmys and Joes than the X’s and O’s. I think it starts with players that have inherent talent that need subtle coaching to hone their skill. Now the question is, how do we get the Zions of the world to come to our program? Is It recruiting? Is it our facilities? Is it our lack of traditional success? You can only look towards other examples that are in the same boat as Clemson and see if it’s possibe for us to rise from obscurity and become a perineal power.
I don’t have an answer, but we need to find a way to bring some top tier talent. We don’t have to have a team of McDonalds All Americans, but we need more players of that caliber. Less time can be spent developing their talents and more time developing game management skills.
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Rock Defender [53]
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I agree there are multiple variables
Feb 21, 2019, 5:01 PM
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110%er [6468]
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Re: Clemson spends far less on basketball than just about anyone
Feb 21, 2019, 9:05 PM
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Our football program seems to do fine even though it is way, way, down the national. revenue and spending list.
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All-In [43992]
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Way to completely miss the point.***
Feb 21, 2019, 10:58 PM
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Scout Team [153]
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Re: Clemson spends far less on basketball than just about anyone
Feb 21, 2019, 11:06 PM
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Some of those figures include monies being paid to coaches who are not there anymore. Some are paying three at one time.
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All-TigerNet [10121]
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Couple questions Judge .....
Feb 21, 2019, 11:54 PM
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.... (1) Do you have similar data for ACC women's basketball teams? (2) Do you have calculations showing $/win? BTW - Judge Brownell - I saw your snarky comment about Coach Butler on the TNet article re the Georgia Tech loss .... smh
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All-In [43992]
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I don't have any women's basketball data.
Feb 22, 2019, 1:17 PM
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I would be curious to see it though. My guess is that we spend less on women's basketball compared to most other ACC schools.
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110%er [6825]
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110%er [6825]
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Re: I don't have any women's basketball data.
Feb 22, 2019, 3:06 PM
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* correction I had the womens/mens number reverse, we are within a mil of the UofL womens team
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