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Rock Defender [53]
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Oculus Spirit [81628]
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Simple common sense refutes YEC***
Aug 19, 2015, 3:53 PM
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Simple common sense refutes YEC***
Aug 19, 2015, 3:54 PM
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Well yeah but it has to be spelled out for some.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Simple common sense refutes YEC***
Aug 19, 2015, 3:56 PM
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Is there anyone on this board that believes the earth is young?
I don't recall anyone arguing in belief of a young earth in the countless threads I've seen about this in the two years I've been here
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Simple common sense refutes YEC***
Aug 19, 2015, 4:00 PM
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I guarantee you there are people on this board that believe that. I'm sure some will even admit it in this thread if you ask. Regardless of that, there are other implications here; If the flood didn't happen, what else didn't happen in the bible and why should we take it seriously?
It's pretty clear that we evolved over time yet people still believe we were all created relatively recently (i.e. thousands of years ago). So yes, some people on this board do believe the earth is young.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Simple common sense refutes YEC***
Aug 19, 2015, 4:08 PM
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Considering you posted a thread a few weeks ago that no one as I recall argued for the young earth position, I don't think so.
I think young earthers are a minority in the Christian faith.
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Orange Blooded [2894]
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It really bothers him that people believe what they like.***
Aug 19, 2015, 4:17 PM
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: It really bothers him that people believe what they like.***
Aug 19, 2015, 4:20 PM
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> It really bothers him that people believe what they like.
It seems people only say things like this when their particular views are being attacked. Notice how you never say this about a topic you happen to agree with?
For the record, it doesn't bother me that people have other opinions, but it is worrisome when people believe things that are so far out of the realm of reality.
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Orange Blooded [2894]
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Re: It really bothers him that people believe what they like.***
Aug 19, 2015, 4:24 PM
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Yeah, kinda like the idiots that believed Obama was going to pay their rent and buy them new cars? Like that crowd?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: It really bothers him that people believe what they like.***
Aug 19, 2015, 4:25 PM
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Can't stay on topic huh? Not surprising.
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Orange Blooded [2894]
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Uh oh. Struck a nerve there huh?***
Aug 19, 2015, 4:28 PM
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Uh oh. Struck a nerve there huh?***
Aug 19, 2015, 4:33 PM
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Not really... it wasn't even a good ad hominem.
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Orange Blooded [2894]
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Re: Uh oh. Struck a nerve there huh?***
Aug 19, 2015, 4:39 PM
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I'll have to disagree. It was right on point with what you are discussing. You were discounting others for believing in what you see as ridiculous and I just gave an example of my own.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Uh oh. Struck a nerve there huh?***
Aug 20, 2015, 11:07 AM
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How is what you said relevant to me or what we were discussing? You gave a pretty off the wall example in the context of what we were talking about.
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Orange Blooded [2894]
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Re: Uh oh. Struck a nerve there huh?***
Aug 20, 2015, 1:56 PM
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"For the record, it doesn't bother me that people have other opinions, but it is worrisome when people believe things that are so far out of the realm of reality".
Did you not state the above?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Uh oh. Struck a nerve there huh?***
Aug 20, 2015, 2:49 PM
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I sure did, then you started spouting off against Obama. How exactly is that relevant to the conversation at hand? Sure, it's an example of stupid things people believe but it is indeed off topic.
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Orange Blooded [2894]
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Re: Uh oh. Struck a nerve there huh?***
Aug 20, 2015, 3:05 PM
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I don't believe in YEC either. Is that back on topic enough for you?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Uh oh. Struck a nerve there huh?***
Aug 20, 2015, 3:09 PM
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sure. what a fruitful convo we have here.
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Orange Blooded [2894]
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Re: Uh oh. Struck a nerve there huh?***
Aug 20, 2015, 3:20 PM
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So you were pointing out how there are Bible literalists that believe in YEC and that the entire planet was once covered with a flood. Okay, that's fine by me. Let them believe what they like. I don't interpret the Bible literally as if it was a history book.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Uh oh. Struck a nerve there huh?***
Aug 20, 2015, 3:30 PM
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Fair enough, it's fine by me for people to believe whatever they want. But this is a politics and religion board. If there is anywhere appropriate to debate this sort of thing it is here. I don't know why so many people get on this board and say "let people think what they want". They can do that, nobody is forcing them to come on this board and argue about it.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: It really bothers him that people believe what they like.***
Aug 19, 2015, 4:30 PM
[ in reply to It really bothers him that people believe what they like.*** ] |
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Nah. He is ok
We've had some good conversations. I was just wondering why keep rehashing the same debate.
I have seen this young earther thing on this site probably ten times in two years, and I don't recall(could be wrong) anyone arguing in favor of a young earth. I didn't mean anything negative by the question I asked ??
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: It really bothers him that people believe what they like.***
Aug 19, 2015, 4:34 PM
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>Nah. He is ok
Well thank you clemsonfan.
>We've had some good conversations. I was just wondering why keep rehashing the same debate.
Let's be honest here 99% of the topics rehash the same old democrat/republican religion/non-religion debates.
But to answer your questions, I do it because it's fun.
> I have seen this young earther thing on this site probably ten times in two years, and I don't recall(could be wrong) anyone arguing in favor of a young earth. I didn't mean anything negative by the question I asked
You may be right, I still don't see any reason not to post this in the religion forum.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Simple common sense refutes YEC***
Aug 19, 2015, 4:18 PM
[ in reply to Re: Simple common sense refutes YEC*** ] |
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I'm not sure what your point is? If you agree with the article, cool. If you don't, that's cool too.
Even if there are only a few, it's still a relevant political/religious topic to post here.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Simple common sense refutes YEC***
Aug 19, 2015, 4:19 PM
[ in reply to Re: Simple common sense refutes YEC*** ] |
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Now, if you post a thread about the silliness of hell, I'm agreeing with ya lol
Seems to me the majority of Christians believe in a literal eternal hell fire. But very few believe the earth is young
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Simple common sense refutes YEC***
Aug 19, 2015, 4:21 PM
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Why believe anything the bible has to say given there are so many inconsistencies/fallacies? I mean sure, it has some good parts but to take it as the literal word of god seems a bit odd.
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All-In [42021]
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It's happened.
Aug 19, 2015, 4:39 PM
[ in reply to Re: Simple common sense refutes YEC*** ] |
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Several years ago, but it has happened. I don't think the people who argued that post here anymore.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: It's happened.
Aug 19, 2015, 4:47 PM
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Well before my time then.
But you'd agree, it's a minority?
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All-In [42021]
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Yes, I agree.***
Aug 19, 2015, 5:14 PM
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Oculus Spirit [83001]
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93 and the dinosaur post?***
Aug 19, 2015, 5:01 PM
[ in reply to It's happened. ] |
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All-In [42021]
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That's one of em.***
Aug 19, 2015, 5:14 PM
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Oculus Spirit [81628]
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Heisman Winner [111389]
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Simple common sense refutes YEC***
Aug 20, 2015, 4:06 PM
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Come on, make the list ??
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All-In [26968]
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The great thing about God
Aug 20, 2015, 7:54 AM
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is that He's big enough to cover all the things we can't explain.
I don't know about the whole "young earth creationist" label...I consider myself a Bible-believer, nothing more, nothing less. I believe we (Bible-believers) do God a disservice when we attempt to explain God and His actions in a scientific framework. Me defending God and the Bible against "science" would be equivalent to Pee Wee Herman defending Superman. He doesn't need my help, lol.
That's why I don't subscribe to these "Answers in Genesis" folks. To me, they're taking God and putting Him in a box. "He must be small enough for me to be able to explain Him. I need Him to be that small." Well, I just happen to think that God is really, really, really big, bigger than I can imagine or explain, so I'm not going to try to. Non-believers will never become believers until they realize that God is big and we are small. What He has done and what He will do for them is so far beyond human comprehension. I'm just dumb enough to choose to believe what the Bible says, because the result of that faith has been proofs in my life, at every turn. I have never found anything He said to be untrue, not one time! So I'm not going to doubt Him, even when what He said doesn't seem to make sense.
So, interesting article, thanks for posting.
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110%er [7013]
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I hope He did not tell you that leasing a vehicle is a good
Aug 20, 2015, 9:02 AM
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idea.
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All-In [26968]
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Hah...quite the opposite, actually.***
Aug 20, 2015, 9:23 AM
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110%er [7013]
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Go with God then.***
Aug 20, 2015, 10:01 AM
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: The great thing about God
Aug 20, 2015, 9:42 AM
[ in reply to The great thing about God ] |
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> Non-believers will never become believers until they realize that God is big and we are small.
So what are we to make of the evidence that we find. If we clearly see evidence that the flood did not happen what am I supposed to do with that data? How do I differentiate between what is fact in the world and what is up to God because he's is "really really big"? Are you saying he leaves misleading evidence to throw us off his trail?
It's clear to me that you (not just you, pretty much anyone religious) only say things like this when you are confronted with evidence that contradicts your beliefs. Science is met with open arms until it goes against the grain of religion. Nobody disputes our math or chemistry classes yet when hard evidence for evolution or something contradicting the bible comes up it's always " ¯\_(?)_/¯ welp, must be God" or a.k.a. I don't believe that so I throw the God card.
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All-In [26968]
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Do whatever you want with the data/evidence.
Aug 20, 2015, 10:36 AM
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I like reading about it. It does not change the truth of God's Word any more than a gnat can knock down an elephant, so no big deal to me.
There is no "differentiation" between what is fact and what is God. God is God over everything, whether we perceive it to be fact or not.
I'm sorry you get the perception that I only think God is big when it comes to things that contradict "science". That's my fault. God is the one who created the math and the chemistry and the physics. He's Lord over all of it. He has been gracious enough to the human race to allow us to come to an understanding of a small portion of it.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Do whatever you want with the data/evidence.
Aug 20, 2015, 11:06 AM
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> There is no "differentiation" between what is fact and what is God. God is God over everything, whether we perceive it to be fact or not.
But you do make this distinction, I've seen you do it on this board many times. If I told you that vaccines prevent certain diseases and illness, you would agree with me. Why? Because the data show that to be the case. When I show you that the data supports NO flood happening, only then do you start acting like you just aren't intelligent enough to understand it and that God must have some answer.
Let's be pedantic for a second here:
1. There is no evidence whatsoever that a worldwide flood occurred in the last few thousand years yet the bible makes the claim that it does.
This means that the bible is either wrong or simply shouldn't be taken literally. Agree? or do you simply think the evidence is wrong?
2. The bible claims all animals including us at about the same time initially. Evidence very clearly shows we evolved over time.
Again, the bible is either wrong or simply shouldn't be taken literally. The only other option here is that the evidence was purposefully made to look that way which would mean god was deceitful which I don't think either of us would agree is the case.
These are just two examples btw, the list goes on and on.
> I'm sorry you get the perception that I only think God is big when it comes to things that contradict "science". That's my fault. God is the one who created the math and the chemistry and the physics. He's Lord over all of it. He has been gracious enough to the human race to allow us to come to an understanding of a small portion of it.
So basically what your saying is that any conclusion that we reach that contradicts God's word must be false? What you are saying is that every single piece of data we find that is in contradiction is simply human error or incorrect?
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All-In [26968]
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Re: Do whatever you want with the data/evidence.
Aug 20, 2015, 11:16 AM
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Have you ever encountered a scenario in which there were two pieces of contradicting evidence? I think we all have. What do we do as a result? We study it over, and we go with the evidence that comes from a more trustworthy source, or that came from a more rigorous study, or that jives more with something else we have evidence for.
What I am talking about is absolutely no different. One hand, I have fossil record evidence that species evolved over long periods of time. On the other hand, I have the evidence that God's Word states that God created all animal life. I have chosen the evidence that I have determined is from a more reliable source: an omniscient, omnipotent God.
In your case of vaccines, you may present me with evidence that vaccines are helpful. I do not find any evidence to the contrary, especially not in the Bible, where vaccines are not mentioned. So why wouldn't I go with your evidence?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Do whatever you want with the data/evidence.
Aug 20, 2015, 11:29 AM
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> What I am talking about is absolutely no different. One hand, I have fossil record evidence that species evolved over long periods of time. On the other hand, I have the evidence that God's Word states that God created all animal life. I have chosen the evidence that I have determined is from a more reliable source: an omniscient, omnipotent God.
You are correct that they are two contradicting accounts. What is incorrect is to say that they are equal in terms of evidence. It has been empirically shown that we did indeed evolve over time. It would be akin to me saying that the earth is round and then you saying "yeah but the bible says it's a square".
What you are talking about is called cognitive dissonance. What the fossil record shows and what the bible claims are contradictory. You can't hold both ideas at once. The fossil record is pretty unequivocal so to say it's not correct is simply false.
The other thing, and nobody can seem to answer this, is what evidence do you have that the Bible is the word of God? Simply personal experience I presume? I completely understand that fact that you think it's the word of God. But why? it's full of contradictions and scientific impossibilities.
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All-In [26968]
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Re: Do whatever you want with the data/evidence.
Aug 20, 2015, 12:30 PM
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You are correct that they are two contradicting accounts. What is incorrect is to say that they are equal in terms of evidence. It has been miraculously shown that we were indeed created. It would be akin to me saying that the earth is round and then you saying "yeah but science says it's a square".
What you are talking about is called cognitive dissonance. What the fossil record shows and what the bible claims are contradictory. You can't hold both ideas at once. The creation evidence is pretty unequivocal so to say it's not correct is simply false.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Do whatever you want with the data/evidence.
Aug 20, 2015, 12:53 PM
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Really Prod? I'm starting to think you're just trolling me here.
> It has been miraculously shown that we were indeed created.
Care to share the evidence for this?
> The creation evidence is pretty unequivocal so to say it's not correct is simply false
Again, would love to see this.
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All-In [26968]
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Just being a little facetious.
Aug 20, 2015, 12:57 PM
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Your response was basically "well my evidence is better than yours". I can't really respond to that except to say it right back to you, lol.
I've told you what my evidence was, over and over...you just don't like the answer.
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Hall of Famer [24687]
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Proposed compromise: Aliens and DNA modification... ;~)***
Aug 20, 2015, 1:00 PM
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Proposed compromise: Aliens and DNA modification... ;~)***
Aug 20, 2015, 1:03 PM
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I'm on board for anything we can test and verify 
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Hall of Famer [24687]
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The DNA genealogy trail hit some political roadblocks...
Aug 20, 2015, 1:50 PM
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It started to reveal some not so 'favorable' realities.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Just being a little facetious.
Aug 20, 2015, 1:02 PM
[ in reply to Just being a little facetious. ] |
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> Your response was basically "well my evidence is better than yours". I can't really respond to that except to say it right back to you, lol.
It's more along the lines of "I have empirical falsifiable evidence and you don't".
> I've told you what my evidence was, over and over...you just don't like the answer.
No you haven't. You simply say that you don't understand things like the fossil record therefore god is mysterious and must have done it.
Can you give me a single empirical reason to believe the bible is the word of god? I always get balked at when I ask for empirical evidence regarding the bible but if you don't have that then why in the world do you think it's true?
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All-In [26968]
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Pardon, but I have repeatedly said
Aug 20, 2015, 1:10 PM
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That my evidence is the Word of God. You don't like that answer, so you don't accept it. I wouldn't expect you to. But don't say I won't say what my evidence is.
I looked it up, and saw that empirical means something that is verifiable by observation or experience. In that light, I offer this empirical evidence that the Bible is the Word of God. I experienced the transformation of my life when I accepted it. In the exact same way, you have evidence that the power is on, because a room went from dark to light when you flipped a light switch. What I experienced and observed is every single bit as real as what you experienced and observed in that hypothetical. There is not one single, slight shred of doubt in my mind about it.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Pardon, but I have repeatedly said
Aug 20, 2015, 1:31 PM
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> That my evidence is the Word of God. You don't like that answer, so you don't accept it. I wouldn't expect you to. But don't say I won't say what my evidence is.
Ok well you have said that. It just means you don't have anything to show that another person can verify. As long as we are clear on that fact.
> I looked it up, and saw that empirical means something that is verifiable by observation or experience. In that light, I offer this empirical evidence that the Bible is the Word of God. I experienced the transformation of my life when I accepted it. In the exact same way, you have evidence that the power is on, because a room went from dark to light when you flipped a light switch. What I experienced and observed is every single bit as real as what you experienced and observed in that hypothetical. There is not one single, slight shred of doubt in my mind about it.
I don't doubt that you have experienced what you say you have, but that is a personal experience that others can't verify.
> I experienced the transformation of my life when I accepted it.
May I ask exactly what changed? I asked this of clemsontiger1988 and got nothing from him.
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All-In [26968]
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Sure!
Aug 20, 2015, 1:41 PM
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Before:
I didn't have a desire for the things of God
I desired to please myself
I was troubled by guilt over my sin
I feared eternal damnation
I feared dying
After:
The Holy Spirit immediately took up residence in me and gave me the following:
A desire for the things of God
A desire to please God
Freedom from guilt over sin
Assurance that I'd never sniff hell
Assurance of heaven after dying
There is no way a person can experience something like that, so immediately and obviously, and not know that what the Bible says is true.
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All-In [34100]
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Re: Sure!
Aug 20, 2015, 2:13 PM
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Here's the unsolvable problem, in the end:
Given that there are many people who have experienced powerful revelations not just from the Christian God but also the Muslim God and all kinds of other supernatural entities, how should we go about having all of these people get along and agree on facts about the world and morality, when they are 100% certain of their various views based on their powerful experiences?
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All-In [26968]
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Well, that would be impossible.
Aug 20, 2015, 2:25 PM
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Has never happened in the history of humanity, and never will.
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All-In [34100]
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Exactly, which is why I called it unsolvable.
Aug 20, 2015, 2:39 PM
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Nothing outside of a person can change their mind when that person relies primarily on a belief system that is entirely internal to themselves.
These people conversing with you can have their minds changed by new discoveries in the world, and they are expecting your mind to be similarly changeable.
Personally, I think your view is entirely logically consistent, and utterly unchallengeable.
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All-In [26968]
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Thank you, I guess. LOL***
Aug 20, 2015, 2:40 PM
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Exactly, which is why I called it unsolvable.
Aug 20, 2015, 2:45 PM
[ in reply to Exactly, which is why I called it unsolvable. ] |
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> Personally, I think your view is entirely logically consistent, and utterly unchallengeable.
Logically consistent? Maybe. Unchallengeable? Nonsense.
It's easy to challenge and in fact and i've done so multiple times in this thread alone. He claims the bible is true. The bible says there was a worldwide flood. There is no evidence of this happening. Therefore the bible is not true or at least not literal.
We could do this all day so the notion that it's unchallengeable is incorrect. He's choosing to believe the bible regardless of any new information. That's fine and all and he can be consistent with that, but that doesn't mean he's correct.
> These people conversing with you can have their minds changed by new discoveries in the world, and they are expecting your mind to be similarly changeable.
Indeed they can. I used to be a fundamentalist christian myself. I used to say the exact same things as a lot of people on this board do. I don't know what's in their heads exactly, but I understand how you can be diluted by religion just fine. I had several very powerful religious experiences of my own so I know just how intense the mind can be.
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All-In [26968]
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I don't think he meant "unchallengeable"
Aug 20, 2015, 2:48 PM
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as a synonym for "correct". I think he meant that, whether correct or not, there's nothing you can do to put a dent in it, from the belief holder's perspective.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I don't think he meant "unchallengeable"
Aug 20, 2015, 2:51 PM
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Sure and I would agree he's probably right in this case.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Pardon, but I have repeatedly said
Aug 20, 2015, 3:52 PM
[ in reply to Pardon, but I have repeatedly said ] |
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There are things that happen in our daily lives that can't be verified nor placed under a microscope, yet it still happened.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Pardon, but I have repeatedly said
Aug 20, 2015, 3:55 PM
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That doesn't add anything to the conversation though. So you are just saying that you have a personal experience that you can't verify for others and that's fine. But let's not act like it's ridiculous for me to find your story hard to believe.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Pardon, but I have repeatedly said
Aug 20, 2015, 4:01 PM
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My response was to prod.
Fact: things happen that can't be verified by others, can't be placed under a microscope etc. That's a fact.
Now, that's up to us to believe their story or not.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Pardon, but I have repeatedly said
Aug 20, 2015, 4:04 PM
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I've known some "bad" people in my life, some have turned that around and claimed God got a hold of them.
Personally, I'm not going to poke fun at them. If they say it was God, (unless their doing something stupid) I'm jot gonna tear down their belief. But, hey that's me.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Pardon, but I have repeatedly said
Aug 20, 2015, 4:13 PM
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>I've known some "bad" people in my life, some have turned that around and claimed God got a hold of them.
>Personally, I'm not going to poke fun at them. If they say it was God, (unless their doing something stupid) I'm jot gonna tear down their belief. But, hey that's me.
That's fair enough and I feel the same way. I'm not making fun of people who believe in God. I don't think they are stupid or that they are lying. But this is a politics and religion forum, so I think it's the most appropriate place to debate such a topic.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Pardon, but I have repeatedly said
Aug 20, 2015, 4:16 PM
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"it is worrisome when people believe things that are so far out of the realm of reality"
Yet, it does sorta look like your poking fun at their belief with statements like the above. I may be wrong tho.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Pardon, but I have repeatedly said
Aug 20, 2015, 4:34 PM
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If i said that it's worrisome that people think vaccinations cause autism, does that mean I'm making fun of their position?
Look, i'm not denying that I haven't made fun of people's beliefs on this board. It goes both ways for sure. I'm just saying in general I do not actually believe that you have to be stupid or a liar to believe in religion. I simply disagree with their claims on the grounds that there is not sufficient evidence. I'm sorry but personal experience does not prove anything to anyone other than the person having the experience.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Pardon, but I have repeatedly said
Aug 20, 2015, 4:51 PM
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While we do agree, I'm simply pointing out that not all factual happenings can be verified.
I still remember vividly a conversation I had while fishing with my now dead grandpa. No one else was there, we didn't record the conversation but it did happen.
I know off point, but just pointing out things happen that can't be verified.
Message was edited by: Clemsonfan1851®
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Pardon, but I have repeatedly said
Aug 20, 2015, 4:56 PM
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As I've stated before, I'm what many probably consider a "doubting Thomas," I do believe in a God, but I have many questions myself.
I do doubt that the Bible is the literal word of God. It was written by humans, translated by humans, interpreted by humans.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Pardon, but I have repeatedly said
Aug 20, 2015, 6:42 PM
[ in reply to Re: Pardon, but I have repeatedly said ] |
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> While we do agree, I'm simply pointing out that not all factual happenings can be verified.
I agree. I'm not saying that what prod experienced is or isn't true. I'm simply saying that based on the evidence I have, there isn't sufficient reason to believe that it's true. Who knows, maybe he really did receive revelation from god and i'm simply not able to see it. But on my end, I just hear someone making a claim who they themselves say they can't give me anything other than their word.
> I still remember vividly a conversation I had while fishing with my now dead grandpa. No one else was there, we didn't record the conversation but it did happen.
> I know off point, but just pointing out things happen that can't be verified.
Indeed. I totally understand the concept that things happen that can't be verified. That has no bearing on their validity, just the ability to convey that information to others.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Pardon, but I have repeatedly said
Aug 20, 2015, 5:41 PM
[ in reply to Re: Pardon, but I have repeatedly said ] |
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To answer your question about a worldwide flood, I look at it like this. Try to put ourselves in the shoes of the man writing it. Would he have known how huge the earth was? Would he have known the circumference of the earth? Or would he be inclined to believe the area he lived in was the world?
Since its been relatively recent that we've found out how large the earth is(compared to the age of earth, the size is a recent finding) I'm going with the writer considered his small piece of the earth, "the earth."
There are other historical documents that back up my thoughts on that. There are other civilizations that thought they were "it" and that they inhabited the entire earth in their small part of earth
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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The problem with the idea of a Bible believer, is that it's
Aug 20, 2015, 3:27 PM
[ in reply to The great thing about God ] |
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impossible.
You have to pick and choose how you interpret the Bible and pick and choose which parts override the others.
The Bible is full of mutually exclusive elements. It is simply logically impossible to "follow the Bible as the Word of God."
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All-In [26968]
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Hasn't been impossible for me...
Aug 20, 2015, 3:29 PM
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Any gaps in how well I can follow it are on my end, not on His.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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No, I'm not talking about gaps. I'm talking about mutual
Aug 20, 2015, 7:36 PM
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exclusivity. Since the authors/compilers of the Bible wrote/voted on things that can't be true at the same time, it is up for humans to conclude either God's word is impossible to follow completely or imperfect humans, in an attempt to understand God, bungled things.
But what most do instead is refuse to accept the problem, and simply say "God works in mysterious ways."
Anyone who does this is locked into whatever belief system they are raised with. Without logic (possibly a gift from God) there is no chance to improve one's understanding of the Universe.
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All-In [26968]
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I totally disagree with that.
Aug 21, 2015, 6:58 AM
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There are no contradictions or mutual exclusions in the Bible.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Re: I totally disagree with that.
Aug 22, 2015, 6:12 PM
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MAT 27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."
LUK 23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."
JOH 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."
.................
II SAMUEL 24:13: So God came to David, and told him, and said unto him, shall SEVEN YEARS OF FAMINE come unto thee in thy land? or will thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue. thee?
I CHRONICLES 21:11: SO God came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Choose thee. Either THREE YEARS OF FAMINE or three months to be destroyed before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh thee;
...............
EXO 24:9,10; AMO 9:1; GEN 26:2; and JOH 14:9
God CAN be seen:
"And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." (EXO 33:23)
"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." (EXO 33:11)
"For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (GEN 32:30)
God CANNOT be seen:
"No man hath seen God at any time." (JOH 1:18)
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (EXO 33:20)
"Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1TIM 6:16)
...............
"And he (Judas) cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the chief priests...bought with them the potter's field." (MAT 27:5)
"Now this man (Judas) purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out." (ACT 1:18)
................
PRO 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
PRO 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
................
2SA 6:23 Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.
2SA 21:8 But the king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bare unto Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul, whom she brought up for Adriel the son of Barzillai the Meholathite:
...
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Oculus Spirit [93608]
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I'm just ball parking here but...
Aug 23, 2015, 4:33 AM
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it appears Prod when with PRO 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.
But that's just a guess. As for me, I can't address six or seven questions about Scripture all at once but I try honestly and sincerely to explain what appears to be Bible conflicts one at a time if someone is really seeking knowledge. I honestly and sincerely don't believe that is the case with you. I think you probably seek your wisdom elsewhere and consider believers in Jesus The Christ to be smite under your feet.
One certain attitude is important when seeking understand, humility. Those who humble themselves before popular opinion which are formed by men who refuse to consider honest witnesses who are ready to swear to their experience and testify to The Truth are not serving the truth for they regard it not but seek their own way.
In case you're wondering this post is an exercise in how Proverbs 26:4 and 5 work together and are not conflicting.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Even if we scratch that one off the list, which is fair,
Aug 23, 2015, 5:11 PM
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...here is what I see in your post.
1. You didn't even attempt to engage the discrepancies I posted, save the weakest one.
2. You implied someone who disagrees with you about Dogma to be a fool.
3. Your excuse for refusing to engage the discrepancies is that you judge my motivations to be other than seeking the truth.
4. You are judging that I need to exercise humility, yet you claim they know the exact Word of God, when there are thousands to choose from. Somehow your upbringing resulted in the perfect path to righteousness, while billions of others are lost.
Just like a talking head for a political party, paid to tow the party line, you have intentionally avoided the subject at hand, and used BS to smoke-screen that fact.
I was raised Christian. I was a believer. I was raised to pick a side, and I tried very hard to defend it. I styled myself as an intellectual Christian and revered guys like St Augustine and St Anselm. I strongly believed that logic could be reconciled with the Bible. The deeper I dug and the more I educated myself on the topic, the harder it was to cling to those beliefs. Talk about an unexpected outcome.
So you go ahead and wrap yourself in the false comfort that those who oppose your brand of religion only do so because of arrogance and ulterior motives. It's not going to help you better understand reality.
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Oculus Spirit [93608]
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There's a patch of barren ground in my family too.
Aug 23, 2015, 5:28 PM
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I still have hope for my brother though. He grew up exposed to the truth but somehow he's just too 'intellectual,' to abide. He thinks aliens brought DNA to earth.
Don't get your panties in a wad. The scripture is hard on believers too.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Your smarmy attitude must be Old Testament.
Aug 23, 2015, 5:38 PM
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Jesus would never condone b*tchiness.
Either way, you defend your religion poorly. You should tag someone else in who isn't so lazy.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Your smarmy attitude must be Old Testament.
Aug 23, 2015, 5:54 PM
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You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.
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110%er [9107]
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Re: Genetic Diversity Refutes Young Earth Creationism
Aug 20, 2015, 1:51 PM
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You might enjoy this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rOvxshInuc
Pretty good talk on why personal experiences in this area or an "unverifiable personal gnosis" are basically meaningless. Fairly apropos to this thread lol.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Genetic Diversity Refutes Young Earth Creationism
Aug 20, 2015, 2:54 PM
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Haha yes, but it's preaching to the choir so to speak. This would be a good one for TheProdigal to watch.
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CU Guru [1581]
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too easy...
Aug 20, 2015, 5:42 PM
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These arguments are so flawed and surprisingly easy to put down. First: don't assume anything. As a rule, don't. Now, where did all of the diversity of alleles come from? Have we seen new ones form? Do we have actual evidence of their formation? Nope. So, no model of how long it takes to get to where we are is any more valid than any other. Do we know if conditions such as diet could cause a relatively sudden change in the way this diversity comes to be? Hmm. If ingestion of some long lost element or nutrient could cause far more mutations in the human genome, this analysis is completely wrong.
The mistake of using a fundamental assumption as a foundation for one of these arguments is so often ignored. We just don't know what we don't know.
For those who claim the bible is full of contradictions, you do not know what you are talking about. If you think you do, I suggest you find the time to speak with a real bible scholar who can speak to each and every one with more evidence outside the bible than you would expect as support. Contradictions are often identified as such because the translation simply cannot truly represent the original writing. The culture of the day must be understood as well as the true definition of each word. In many cases, we have no word for the one used and the effect of using multiple words to compensate causes confusion and room for perceived contradiction. There are no contradictions in the bible. None.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: too easy...
Aug 20, 2015, 5:44 PM
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I agree with the "culture of the day."
I've been lost many times before considering the culture of the day.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: too easy...
Aug 20, 2015, 8:01 PM
[ in reply to too easy... ] |
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> For those who claim the bible is full of contradictions, you do not know what you are talking about. If you think you do, I suggest you find the time to speak with a real bible scholar who can speak to each and every one with more evidence outside the bible than you would expect as support. Contradictions are often identified as such because the translation simply cannot truly represent the original writing.
So what I'm hearing is that it requires a biblical scholar to even understand the bible. So you yourself can't refute these contradictions but you assure me that they are not contradictions. You don't see a problem here?
> There are no contradictions in the bible. None.
Should I take your word for this? Or just believe that you know a scholar that should back it up?
> First: don't assume anything. As a rule, don't.
You would do well to take heed of your own logic. Why do you assume the bible is flawless? Are you a biblical scholar?
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All-In [26968]
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It does not take a "Biblical scholar" to understand
Aug 21, 2015, 7:02 AM
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the Bible. It takes the Holy Spirit. 0% of the people who claim the Bible has contradictions are doing so with the help of the Holy Spirit. Would you consider the things in the Bible to be foolishiness? Of course you do, because the Bible said you would.
I Corinthians 2:11-14
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: It does not take a "Biblical scholar" to understand
Aug 21, 2015, 7:18 AM
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> because the bible said so
You should be careful with this argument. Just because a book says something, doesn't mean it's true. Of course the bible would say something like this, it's a means of control not a science book. So let me get this straight, you can't show me that the bible is indeed the word of God, yet you insist on using it as proof of itself? This is no different than if someone told me I was an infidel because of what the quran says.
Like others have said, you are at least very consistent but your logic is not sound. The bible is not proof of itself.
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All-In [26968]
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The Bible is the only book that can be proof of itself
Aug 21, 2015, 7:57 AM
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Because it's the only written by God.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: The Bible is the only book that can be proof of itself
Aug 21, 2015, 8:56 AM
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But how do we know it was written by God?
So far your argument is basically that the bible is proof of itself because it claims that is the word of God. You can believe that, that's fine, that doesn't seem like a good enough reason to believe something simply because a book says it's true.
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All-In [26968]
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I already answered that
Aug 21, 2015, 8:59 AM
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"I looked it up, and saw that empirical means something that is verifiable by observation or experience. In that light, I offer this empirical evidence that the Bible is the Word of God. I experienced the transformation of my life when I accepted it. In the exact same way, you have evidence that the power is on, because a room went from dark to light when you flipped a light switch. What I experienced and observed is every single bit as real as what you experienced and observed in that hypothetical. There is not one single, slight shred of doubt in my mind about it."
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I already answered that
Aug 21, 2015, 10:08 AM
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Yes, you are appealing to person experience. That's fine, but you must understand that this isn't empirical evidence. You say you had this experience, and I have no reason to doubt you, but excuse me if I don't find it compelling enough to believe the bible is infallible because I didn't have the same experience as you.
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All-In [26968]
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I will never convince you, nor have I ever tried.
Aug 21, 2015, 11:18 AM
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I hope you notice that not one single time have I ever said anything to the effect of "you should believe". Every post in this thread, and all the others like it, is exclusively defensive. I hope you do not think my purpose is to try to change your mind, because I do not have the power to do that.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I will never convince you, nor have I ever tried.
Aug 21, 2015, 11:23 AM
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i'm simply debating the fact that we don't have enough evidence to state that the bible is infallible or the word of god. You have personal experience that convinces you but otherwise none correct?
So are we in agreement that there is no external empirical evidence that supports the bible's claims that it is the word of god? This has been your argument the whole time so if not you'll have to explain what you mean.
All I'm saying is that you can't take any book at it's word alone. If you found a random book and it said that it was true because it says it's true, would you believe it based on that fact alone? I would hope not. The Bible is no different. If it is true, it's not because it simply says it is.
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All-In [26968]
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If you are debating
Aug 21, 2015, 11:46 AM
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the fact that you "don't have enough evidence to state that the bible is infallible or the word of god," then you have already won, and will always win. Well done! I've actually never tried to convince you otherwise.
All I have stated, and I did it because you asked, is what evidence I have. It has nothing to do with anyone but me. That is not evidence for you or anyone else.
I have not been debating at all, actually, if you define debating as trying to convince someone of the correctness of your view. I'm just on defense.
I actually went through this thread. You've asked me 19 questions about what I believe. I've asked you 4 questions technically, but they've all been rhetorical. I am not trying to convince you I'm right or that you should change your belief.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: If you are debating
Aug 21, 2015, 1:07 PM
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Ok well looking back over this thread, it is you who usually engaged me, so it certainly appeared as though you were wanting to engage in debate.
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All-In [34100]
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Re: I already answered that
Aug 21, 2015, 3:06 PM
[ in reply to Re: I already answered that ] |
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Yes, you are appealing to person experience. That's fine, but you must understand that this isn't empirical evidence.
How is personal experience not empirical? ALL experience is personal, and it's all empirical.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I already answered that
Aug 21, 2015, 3:12 PM
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> ALL experience is personal, and it's all empirical.
Negative ghost rider.
"Empirical evidence is information acquired by observation or experimentation. This data is recorded and analyzed by scientists and is a central process as part of the scientific method."
How can we record and analyze his personal experience? There's no way to test whether or not the experience he claims to have had actually happens. There is no way to run an experiment to test what Prod is saying.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: I already answered that
Aug 21, 2015, 3:51 PM
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I noticed you only included one definition.
You should keep going.
Personal experience is also empirical evidence. It may not be to you, but to the one experiencing it, it is empirical.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I already answered that
Aug 21, 2015, 4:05 PM
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Let's not be pedantic here, we are not discussing anecdotal evidence. That is to say we can observe and test it independently from a single person's experience.
There is no point in discussing personal experience as nobody can verify that. I can say that I saw batman and you can't disprove that because it's not testable. In the same way, we can't rely on Prod's testimony to deduce that the bible is real.
The amount of people making the claim, without observable verifiable evidence, has exactly zero influence on it's validity. If a thousand people told me they saw batman outside and I ran out there and didn't see him, I might be inclined to believe them at first but if this happened numerous times I would not.
Sure millions of christians give their testimony. Does that mean we should believe them? Millions of muslims, hindus, etc.. do the same thing. No verifiable evidence means that we can discount their stories. It's really that simple.
Again, I'm not saying Prod didn't have this experience or that he's lying, I'm simply saying that I don't believe him based on the evidence (or lack thereof) he provided.
Furthermore, Prod says that the Bible can be used evidence for itself. There is no arguing against that because it's not based on logic.
Why is the bible true? Because it's the word of God. How do we know it's the word of god? Because the bible says so. That is circular logic in its purest form and is not proof of anything.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: I already answered that
Aug 21, 2015, 4:08 PM
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If anyone is being pedantic, it is you. You clearly skipped over all the definitions for empirical evidence above.
And it's a FACT: no matter how you try to spin it that personal experience is one definition of empirical evidence.
Many things happen to us on a daily basis that can't be threw under a microscope or verified through other means. It is still empirical to the person experiencing it. That's just a fact.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I already answered that
Aug 21, 2015, 4:29 PM
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This is the context in which I am using emperical vs anecdotal evidence: http://areyouthemovement.com/anecdotal-experience-empirical-evidence/
What prodigal is presenting is absolutely in the realm of anecdotal.
> Many things happen to us on a daily basis that can't be threw under a microscope or verified through other means. It is still empirical to the person experiencing it. That's just a fact.
I don't know why you are trying to so hard to drive this point home? I completely understand that not everything can be verified through a scientific process. I didn't say otherwise.
I'm simply saying his experiences do not prove anything to anyone other than himself.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: I already answered that
Aug 21, 2015, 4:34 PM
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Negative ghost rider.
"Empirical evidence is information acquired by observation or experimentation. This data is recorded and analyzed by scientists and is a central process as part of the scientific method."
Yet you say above, while conveniently leaving other definitions out that empirical evidence is recorded and analyzed by scientists.
You're the one leaving out personal experience as empirical.
And I'm simply saying that it doesn't have to prove anything to you or to me for it to be empirical to HIM.
Not hard to comprehend.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I already answered that
Aug 21, 2015, 4:45 PM
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Please read more about anecdotal empirical evidence: http://www.quora.com/What-is-anecdotal-empirical-evidence
Yes, Prod's experience could be described as anecdotal empirical evidence "when evidence is non-rigorously collected and there's not a lot of it -- we call the evidence anecdotal."
> And I'm simply saying that it doesn't have to prove anything to you or to me for it to be empirical to HIM.
>Not hard to comprehend.
You're right, it's not, but that doesn't refute my argument about it not proving his position. His anecdotes matter to him only.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: I already answered that
Aug 21, 2015, 4:37 PM
[ in reply to Re: I already answered that ] |
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I think you may need to read that link again, and again.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I already answered that
Aug 21, 2015, 4:49 PM
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Are you using this to refute my main point or are you simply concerned with my use of the term empirical evidence?
I'm not sure what's happening here.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: I already answered that
Aug 21, 2015, 4:11 PM
[ in reply to Re: I already answered that ] |
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Again, it is empirical to HIM. It's HIS personal experience.
You don't have to believe it. It doesn't change the fact that it's empirical evidence to him.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: I already answered that
Aug 21, 2015, 4:19 PM
[ in reply to I already answered that ] |
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The conversation I had 35 years ago while fishing with my now dead grandpa didn't happen. It can't be threw under a microscope or verified through other means.
Sarcasm.
Empirical evidence also means personal experience.
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