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All-In [27361]
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For many,many years America
Sep 30, 2020, 7:54 PM
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Has allowed special interest groups and other influential people to make decisions regarding this country that should have NEVER been made. They range in an array of topics that includes the life an well being of all of us. Most I personally don’t know a great deal about but they should be obvious to all of you. This unrest that we are burdened with today should be resolved by the nations leaders to satisfy all, but it will not be done.
The one area that I do know something about is the catastrophic wild fires happening in the west. Other than politics, I can think of NO reason that the government should have allowed Forest policy to be dictated by these so-called conservation groups and “tree huggers” that have for fifty plus years controlled how the National Forest were managed. To ‘heck’ with those trained and educated to keep the country’s most valuable and renewable resource healthy and replenishable . I could write a book about the number of times these ‘experts’ have totally destroyed an area with their no cut policies. There is a gigantic example in the western states now.
The fun will begin when the rains come! And they will. Guess where the millions of acres of mud will eventually end up? Lakes, rivers and the oceans. It’s not going to be pretty and perhaps impossible to stop. Without question. I’m not sure money can buy a solution but it is inevitable to happen.
So, when you choose your leaders .... do a good job. And GOOD LUCK.
I know this doesn’t belong on a sports board but I know you guys are clever enough to see how important it is to select great leadership. If it exists.
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Orange Blooded [3427]
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Username checks out :-)***
Sep 30, 2020, 7:58 PM
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All-In [27361]
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Re: Username checks out :-)***
Sep 30, 2020, 8:13 PM
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Thanks. Ive had a license to practice for almost fifty years and I’ve ‘seen it all’. Some things just never change and it is disturbing to me to know that we have such a system of leadership in our government that allows those in the know to have little or no say so in very Important matters. This virus is the greatest example of all. Decisions about a catastrophe such as this one should never, never be left up to democrats and republicans to decide. Not with the amazing medical minds in America.
Thanks for hearing me out. I apologize for my rant!
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Associate AD [842]
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I actually go out west and fight wildfires.
Sep 30, 2020, 8:13 PM
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There has been an issue with under cutting on public lands. (A running conspiracy theory is that the treehuggers are funded by the timber companies. It makes their privately held timber lands more valuable if you cannot cut the public lands.)
This does not explain why the fires are bad on private land and why the fire season is year round as opposed to only the summer. As a boots on the ground firefighter, I know warming is real.
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All-In [27361]
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Re: I actually go out west and fight wildfires.
Sep 30, 2020, 8:21 PM
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With your background you know that the management of public lands has been a problem at least since the early sixties. The conservationist have been responsible for totally destroying a number of communities in the west that depended on the Forest industries. I once had a long list of companies that Were forced to close because of the groups involvement in harvesting timber.
I’ve been on a FEW fires myself in my ‘early years’ and you certainly earn your pay. I bet you agree with this too!
Do your part
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All-In [27366]
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Legend [15970]
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Why someone would TD this post is beyond my...
Sep 30, 2020, 8:32 PM
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...understanding. We have a lot of "experts" on Tnet. But one thing is for sure, Foresttiger has the experience and real world knowledge to back up his post. So I will certainly respect his opinion on forest management. It's not a political issue, it's simply facts.
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All-In [27361]
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Re: Why someone would TD this post is beyond my...
Sep 30, 2020, 8:53 PM
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I was wondering who the tree hugger was in tnet! We must have one. Anyone know her.
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CU Guru [1273]
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Re: Why someone would TD this post is beyond my...
Sep 30, 2020, 11:56 PM
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...much, if not all of Nature as we know and love it, depends on fire. The fires in the West right now are nothing new, or extraordinary. Historically, many worse fires in these areas have happened. There are many species of flora and fauna that actually depend on it. Yes, Global warming is happening, but it's happened many times before on this world that we call "Earth". The axis shifts - and once upon a time, the North and South poles were simply oceans of water. It may happen again. The tectonic plates are still, and always will be shifting. Our carbon emissions have, in my personal belief, have very little to do with it. Our atmosphere is HUGE beyond imagining, and life as we know it will survive!
Go Tigers!!!
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1st Rounder [638]
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Re: Why someone would TD this post is beyond my...
Oct 1, 2020, 12:34 AM
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TRUTH!
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Letterman [263]
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Re: Why someone would TD this post is beyond my...
Oct 1, 2020, 8:20 AM
[ in reply to Re: Why someone would TD this post is beyond my... ] |
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Refreshing to have someone bring geologic time context into the conversation. It amazes me how people assume the last several hundred or even several thousand years is what Earth’s ‘normal’ climate is. This earth has been a magma ball, a snow ball and everything in between. There are so many many factors in play that determine climate. The belief that we have control over Earth’s thermostat it is a testament of man’s hubris. Im fully on board for cleaner air and water and being overall good stewards, but we have to accept that climate change is a natural phenomenon that we have to adapt to, not try to control.
Climate aside, the forrest fires are a naturally occuring event, but if we want to minimize their impact on human lives we need allow them to happen on smaller scale naturally instead of putting out fires as they pop up then complain when massive tinder bombs goes off.
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All-In [27361]
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Re: Why someone would TD this post is beyond my...
Oct 1, 2020, 9:48 AM
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Controlled burns are an important part of sound forest management. Some say it’s air pollution and will not accept it!
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Why someone would TD this post is beyond my...
Oct 1, 2020, 12:40 PM
[ in reply to Re: Why someone would TD this post is beyond my... ] |
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When I did some climate modeling & research about 15 years ago... my most extreme scenarios are now considered mundane within current models. It has appeared even the tinfoil folks a few decades ago were closer to being right. We do know how much CO2 we are producing, we know how much can be absorbed via various sources (and getting more accurate too), we are just pumping to much CO2 to fast and we have historical data (billions of years of it) so see how CO2 has impacted climate. I don't think a little CO2 is bad, but our CO2 problem is kinda like a Coot drinking problem... it isn't going to do us any favors by ignoring it or making excuses. The science of the models, etc are not really that complicated and our control over the climate is well documented. It isn't that we need to cut CO2 cold turkey but we really need to start minimizing it and curbing it. Slower step-down is better, but we have been kicking the can. Re-releasing some of the CO2 back has likely been a little bit of a good think for humanity, but again, it is about that too much point. A little bit of beer is good, too much is bad. At what point does climate change affect things like the carrying capacity for humanity's global food supply and secure food supply. What does it mean if the South East has to financially bail-out midwestern farmers depleting their groundwater due to increased water demand from higher temps.
Here is the problem with geologic time. Humans don't exist. I plan (as a species) to be more than a blip. We shouldn't think just of tomorrow but we shouldn't think 2000 years into the future either.
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All-In [27361]
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Re: Why someone would TD this post is beyond my...
Oct 1, 2020, 3:39 PM
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Trees, especially the ones burning, add co2 to the atmosphere. Am I right doc?
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110%er [6825]
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Re: Why someone would TD this post is beyond my...
Oct 1, 2020, 4:16 PM
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Yup, but surface carbon is relatively minor all things considered. Bacteria does more CO2 emissions than anything and trees are short-term nutrient sinks. Any surface carbon sources from the biota are going be in/out of a carbon cycle fairly frequently. That is fine and necessary or life.
Now, if you are mining carbon sources from spots that have been out of the cycle for say, 50-250 million years, then it becomes a bit different. Modern ecological sinking capacity cant sink carbon fast enough (we don't have enough peat bogs etc). The ocean can only do but so much before acidification begin to slow (ie clog the sink) and if we are still chugging away at that point, well. The ocean can sink several gigatons of carbon every year, the problem is that we are extracting about 5X the sinking capacity. Soil sinks too. Note sure on that number... and even mine are likely decades out of date now. We don't need to cut carbon whole turkey, just get it down to the sinking's capacity. Thus I not worried about the wildfire CO2 (that carbon will be used by other surface users, mine has always been the mined sources - but more importantly the quantity. Now if we start to learn how to sink CO2 better, becomes a mute issue. We are, in a a way sinking N from the stmosphere with syn notirgen fertilizer.... but N is a different cycle completely.
My takeaway has always been this: carbon is a nutrient. We have to look at it from a (eu)trophic standpoint and whether or not we want long-term nutrient enrichment. Not all species are adapted to that scenario.
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Standout [304]
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Re: For many,many years America
Oct 1, 2020, 12:48 AM
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Nothing like TigerNet to give me a good laugh. Forest policy was dictated by the timber industry out west FOR DECADES. They lined the pockets of politicians and subsequently mono cropped the land they destroyed forever changing this beautiful land for the worst. The planting practices set this land up to burn, as does the extended droughts (thanks climate change) and thus extended burn seasons. Special interest/big business made decisions about the state i love and now large swaths are ash, trails i loved are gone, friends have lost everything due to horrible decisions by the timber industry. If tree huggers were in charge, as you purport, then the woods would be going through normal cycles of life as they always have, not Turing into wastelands. Choose a leader who will have backbone when it comes to environmental policy and not one who will allow others to dictate policy with only the bottom line considered
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CU Medallion [52072]
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Re: For many,many years America
Oct 1, 2020, 6:38 AM
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Main problem there being that the leader with an environmental backbone you mention does not exist.....there is no money in it.
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Orange Blooded [4180]
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Re: For many,many years America
Oct 1, 2020, 7:14 AM
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After reading all this and then seeing your picture, I thought you were a spotted owl but you’re just one big ugly monkey.
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Hall of Famer [22155]
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Re: For many,many years America
Oct 1, 2020, 7:24 AM
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It is amazing that some of the "environmentalists" insist on enacting policies that will destroy the environment they claim they want to protect.
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Legend [17216]
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Advocating for expertise in forestry, medicine, ....
Oct 1, 2020, 8:52 AM
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other environmental sciences, foreign policy etc. seems reasonable.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: For many,many years America
Oct 1, 2020, 9:10 AM
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Yeah, no.
The issue isn't solely with forestry practices, but also with development practices as well. You have had development encroaching on sensitive areas for a while. Putting McMansions next to federal lands isn't a bright idea.
Here, look at the locations that have had the most growth and compare it to the fire map. Note the north east side of the valley.
For me, many of the issues is exactly the same when I see folks "baffled" because the flood waters reach their house built into the flood plain. Then they want government assistance to rebuild in the same exact spot and complain about government overreach if they can't.
Cali, by nature is about a fire prone as the South East will have Hurricanes. Fire is part of their ecosystem. And one should know that the western forestry dynamic is wildly different from that in the south east. Same with water right, etc.
I know you "experts" argument,uggg. Probably sounds like you think that we should not allow doctors/surgeons to perform operations since they kill people all the time and it should be allowed to the non-experts too. Not saying experts always get it right but I trust someone armed with GIS, policy and a ample amount of forestry education moreso than any yahoo.
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Letterman [263]
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Re: For many,many years America
Oct 1, 2020, 9:36 AM
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This is an excellent point that is particularly relevant when discussing the topic of increased hurricane destruction. If you build more structures in a historically hurricane active area, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to deduce that there will be increases destruction of infrastructure.
That said, compared to hurricane damage, wildfire damage prevention should be a walk in the park. We can add fire breaks in forest, we can clear dead timber and practice controlled burns more often, and you can accept the increased risk of house burning down if you build next to a massive forrest in an area with a history of drought and forest fires.
Interesting fact- giant sequoia cones require fire to release their seeds to germinate. For years we couldn't figure out why new sequioas weren’t germinating- then finally realized Smokie the Bear didn't know what hell he was talking about.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: For many,many years America
Oct 1, 2020, 10:00 AM
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In defense of Smokey... controlled burns are normally fine. It is the yahoo idiot campers (or independent homeless citizens - cali) that are the problems. Smokey is right to a point. I want to prevent idiot burning down the forest. But I get your point. Here is another round of beer!
I am also almost wondering if the fire outbreak isn't slightly Covid related. In the Western-side of Wrong Carolina (wife's choice) we have a lot of federal lands right next door. No major fires, too wet as the mushrooms are now 20 feet tall. Since march, there have been tons and tons more activity in the woods. Most are quasi-locals or regional traffic but I wonder if a few of those additional fires combined with a drought are the result of folks have covid cabin fever burning the county down because they think hot-dogs are BBQ over a fire... but I don't follow the causes to closely to know for certain.
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All-In [27361]
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Re: For many,many years America
Oct 1, 2020, 11:51 AM
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Many of my classmates in the school of forestry at Clemson spent their internship in Klamath Falls Oregon on the fire suppression teams. I was not among that group! For a reason! I’ve heard all the stories of that area.
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All-TigerNet [12537]
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Re: For many,many years America
Oct 1, 2020, 10:12 AM
[ in reply to Re: For many,many years America ] |
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The US Forest Service is one of the most PC governmental organizations in the book. I spend a lot of time every year out west enjoying our National Forests. I've done this for decades. I've had some interesting conversations with Forest Service employees over the years. The work force has changed a good bit from admittedly a mostly male to I would guess close to 50/50 M/F/?other.That in and of itself is ok. The backgrounds however have changed from folks with primarily a background in forestry or fish and wildlife management to disciplines all over the map.The attitudes have seemingly changed from one of a desire for actual management and multi use to one of hands off with the seeming desire to convert the forest into a static outdoor cathedral.Virtually every conversation when I encountered a USFS employee in the woods in the past was friendly. As of late, the conversations are quick, curt and I feel like I am being looked upon as an intruder into THEIR forest.Some of the questions I've been asked are so stupid.Carrying a gun and dressed in camo and then being asked what are you doing?, is an example.It wasn't well received, when I said,"Trying to fill my freezer." I remember active thinning and prescribed burning on National Forests, a practice which still is carried out on neighboring Indian reservations, to decrease the risk of catastrophic fires. I haven't seen that carried out by the Forest Service for years. The forest requires attention much as our homes and vehicles to keep them in good shape. There are many factors involved in the western fires, but managing the forest is something we can do NOW to actually make a difference.
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110%er [6825]
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Re: For many,many years America
Oct 1, 2020, 10:45 AM
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Doesn't surprise me, a lot of folks keep pushing it to be under the interior folks this they can be whipping boys for various groups with an axe to grind (lol). So the USFS tends to be a thumb that sticks out so they are constantly on edge so to speak.
I mean you have several gov groups doing the same thing. You have USFS managing interior lands (BofLM, NPS, etc). Not all fed lands are forest service maintained so it get even weirder. Also a lot of lands are state maintained (Cali in this case) so you might have other weird partnerships too.
In the end, if you want to "neuter" any government office, make the work with other gov agencies. Gears grind themselves down.
As for the background shift, done not surprise me either. A lot more emphasis on inter-disciplinary backgrounds on a lot of levels. I was an oddball because I went over to Long Hall for my BioSci studies rather than take environmental policy courses. Took a lot of policy too as well as engineering. So for me actual reservoir management coursework was more important that "environmental" policy... which was weak on the science. (Ie nitrogen bad, must ban all nitrogen fertilizer, etc). Talking actual eutrophication would make the policy kids seasick. However, it became clear that you did NOT want the BiopSci folks writing the policy work either. The BioSci kids would look at you weird if I told them they can't make that "mandate" even if their science supported the decision because the politics were against them. More hybrids, in given spots make for sharper tools. Then again, my path (as a grad student) took me from Barre Hall, Freeman, Lowry, Hardin, Strom, Sirrine, Strode, Long, and Lee. So of course I like the hybrids but I was very uncommon there.
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CU Medallion [51781]
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Re: For many,many years America
Oct 1, 2020, 10:14 AM
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I honestly don't care for non-Clemson posts on the Tiger Boards, but what you have said is important and backed by experience and facts. TU.
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All-In [40865]
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When I was a boy, this guy told us how we could help
Oct 1, 2020, 10:23 AM
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I guess I failed since I was the one that could prevent forest fires
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All-In [27361]
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Re: When I was a boy, this guy told us how we could help
Oct 1, 2020, 12:17 PM
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He was right ..,, most of the time.
We haven’t even considered wildlife habitat in this conversation. That’s important too.
After fires like we are experiencing now it is very common for the new forest floor to be a variety of understory plants that ultimately become fuel. This is true especially in the California areas. Many of these fires are brush fires as opposed to forest fires. Many species of these plants contain berries that are very flammable.
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