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YOUR BALANCE
Dear Tnet, I have a very simple basketball question
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Dear Tnet, I have a very simple basketball question


Feb 14, 2020, 11:04 PM

Are you better off than you were 10 years ago?

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Jstone D329 - “ It’s ok to want a coaching change”
Brownell @Clemson: 8 seasons ranked 50th or worse by Sports Reference’s SRS
1-29: Brad Brownell road record against ranked ACC opponents
142, 161, 294, 307, 293, 166, 225, 180, 260, 164, 141, 72, 68 - assist rankings amongst all D1 programs during Brownell's tenure


It's 11:15, do you know where your recruits are?***


Feb 14, 2020, 11:13 PM



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In high school?***


Feb 14, 2020, 11:15 PM



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In a dorm at the college they’re gonna transfer here from?***


Feb 15, 2020, 3:30 AM



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"I've played multiple sports and would bet any amount that I'm still more athletic than you at this present time...."


Re: It's 11:15, do you know where your recruits are?***


Feb 15, 2020, 2:07 PM [ in reply to It's 11:15, do you know where your recruits are?*** ]

+1 for the Atlanta Missing & Murdered reference

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Our facilities are better but our fans are


Feb 14, 2020, 11:14 PM

clearly worse

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Re: Our facilities are better but our fans are


Feb 14, 2020, 11:50 PM

I’m guessing this is sarcasm.

However, if not - I don’t think that’s correct. In the mid to late nineties we experienced a (Shocker here) SWEET SIXTEEN round with not state of the art LJC. I think as the natural progression goes with our university and the investment that HAVE been made, the fans expect more than a 2009-10 era type season.

I don’t think that’s happened.

That’s just my view.

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Re: Dear Tnet, I have a very simple basketball question


Feb 14, 2020, 11:33 PM

Well, my Power bill has gotten a little cheaper since SC&G were bounced out!!! So yes, I'm better off!!!!

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Re: Dear Tnet, I have a very simple basketball question


Feb 15, 2020, 12:51 AM

No.

But since the college game has progressed so far beyond Purnell's middle school style, the question is more about how much of the difference have we made up?

To me, there's no question the Brownell years have been disappointing from our expectations.

So the 2009 me would say, considering what our expectations were when we started, we have not progressed as hoped.

The 2019 me says that the college basketball landscape is not as level as it was, and it certainly wasn't level for Clemson during the Barnes and Purnell years. That's why we had to use gimmicky or uber physical styles. So I think we didn't realize how far behind we were, kinda like a Nascar race when you're in the slow line: in order to be successful in the long term, you've got to draft with the fast cars. Being kinda fast in the alternate lane is a losing plan. That's where we were. We were never going to win in the alternate lane, so we needed a coach that could first get us in the correct lane and then get us up to speed.

The 2020 me says we are now in the college basketball mainstream, and Coach B is recruiting players who can compete with the big boys. Last year was definitely a transition point. If DRad had pulled the plug, it would have been understandable.

But he didn't. I'm sure he and Brownell talked about the state and direction of the program and achievable goals. So it stands to reason that DRad believes we have made an investment in Brownell that still can be realized. This overachieving young team is just the foundation for Brownell's next good team.

This is the ACC, and Brownell is competing against legends for recruits. You don't hire a promising coach today and have a great crop of recruits within 3 years. It took time for Tony Bennett who had more to build from and better experience. So it is with Brownell.

Meanwhile, DRad is not going to terminate midseason. So I wonder why we are still talking about this when our kids just played a heck of a game two nights ago.

There will be time to talk about this in April when we all will be better informed by achievements or lack of them.

In the meantime, go Tigers: softball, baseball, M and W basketball, etc.

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Re: Dear Tnet, I have a very simple basketball question


Feb 15, 2020, 7:53 AM

I certainly appreciate your passionate positivity for Clemson basketball, but man some times your “facts” are just way off! Tony Bennett took over a Virginia basketball team that had only been to the NCAA tournament two times in the previous 12 years. Within 3 years he turned them into a regular tourney team (7 out of the last 8 years) and even won a national championship! How does that help Brownell‘s case at all? Brownell took over a regular tourney team and turned them into what Virginia had prior to Bennett’s arrival!

You also mention great progression in basketball over the last 10 years. What exactly are you seeing that points to the game progressing to a much higher level than previously? If we want to use Tony Bennett as an example here, his teams are as old school “high school” as you get- hard defense and hold the ball as long as possible before taking a good shot. And he’s very successful. I’m certainly not saying Purnell‘s style would win championships today (it didn’t then either), but with the right players it wouldn’t be any worse now than it was then. Now, it may be harder to find the right players for that system now than it was then, just because of shifts in teenage sports tendencies! We need a coach who can recruit the right players, and then put them in the best position possible to win. I know, that’s easier said than done, but I’m tired of sitting here for 10 years waiting to see if our current coach can develop into that type of coach.

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Re: Dear Tnet, I have a very simple basketball question


Feb 15, 2020, 1:46 PM [ in reply to Re: Dear Tnet, I have a very simple basketball question ]

Barnes and Purnell may have had gimmicky styles, but they were able to get Clemson to the tournament well above our historical average, before and sadly also since.

Would I love to play an exciting, up tempo style like UNCheat plays when they’re good? Yes. I don’t think that Brownell’s forte and I’m not sure that wins consistently at Clemson.

I look at it like this. Assume you are the AD at NC State or Miss St in charge of making your football program a consistent winner. Should you try to copy the elite teams you face every year like Clemson, FSU, Bama, LSU, etc and hire their assistants and run their scheme? Or should you try to differentiate yourself and do something different?

I don’t know the answer. But I give Miss St credit for finally trying something different with Leach. They were never going to beat Bama at their own game. Barnes and Purnell’s “gimmicky” styles might just have been a concession to understanding we generally will not have the same caliber athletes so they adjusted to compensate. For the most part, it worked because basketball during those days we more more exciting to me.

I must add that despite my points above, I believe Brownell should get the next two years. Not because he has earned them based on his performance, but because I have hope. There are good young players on this team. We should be better next year and supposedly the incoming class is his best so far. Changing course now might feel good, but it doesn’t seem like the most wise course of action.

If I’m wrong, we’ve wasted two more years.

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Re: Dear Tnet, I have a very simple basketball question


Feb 15, 2020, 12:51 AM

No.

But since the college game has progressed so far beyond Purnell's middle school style, the question is more about how much of the difference have we made up?

To me, there's no question the Brownell years have been disappointing from our expectations.

So the 2009 me would say, considering what our expectations were when we started, we have not progressed as hoped.

The 2019 me says that the college basketball landscape is not as level as it was, and it certainly wasn't level for Clemson during the Barnes and Purnell years. That's why we had to use gimmicky or uber physical styles. So I think we didn't realize how far behind we were, kinda like a Nascar race when you're in the slow line: in order to be successful in the long term, you've got to draft with the fast cars. Being kinda fast in the alternate lane is a losing plan. That's where we were. We were never going to win in the alternate lane, so we needed a coach that could first get us in the correct lane and then get us up to speed.

The 2020 me says we are now in the college basketball mainstream, and Coach B is recruiting players who can compete with the big boys. Last year was definitely a transition point. If DRad had pulled the plug, it would have been understandable.

But he didn't. I'm sure he and Brownell talked about the state and direction of the program and achievable goals. So it stands to reason that DRad believes we have made an investment in Brownell that still can be realized. This overachieving young team is just the foundation for Brownell's next good team.

This is the ACC, and Brownell is competing against legends for recruits. You don't hire a promising coach today and have a great crop of recruits within 3 years. It took time for Tony Bennett who had more to build from and better experience. So it is with Brownell.

Meanwhile, DRad is not going to terminate midseason. So I wonder why we are still talking about this when our kids just played a heck of a game two nights ago.

There will be time to talk about this in April when we all will be better informed by achievements or lack of them.

In the meantime, go Tigers: softball, baseball, M and W basketball, etc.

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I appreciate your thoughts


Feb 15, 2020, 1:23 AM

Its talked about because, yes, we have a game, but it's meaningless is the grand scheme of things. There is no tourney in our future, most likely not even an NIT. We've been in this position most of the last 10 years. Maybe barely on the bubble, and I mean barely, in some of them.

Many fans are simply apathetic at this point. They want something to really cheer for. It's like this in all sports if we're honest about it. The lack of results has simply led to disinterest. We care. We want more. We see glimpses, but no real hope of a time we can currently point to as that's when we'll turn the corner as a program. Something always seems to interecede; a popular coach leaving, an injury, an inability to win close games.

Clemson basketball is a tough follow, but you have plenty of die hard fans. They haven't given up, but they are questioning why we keep going down the same old road with the same old results.

And they ask the question, what about our current situation makes me believe it will be any different 5 years from now than it is now? Few tourneys, some nice wins, a bunch of puzzling losses, and just stay the course as the answer

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Re: I consider that's what being a fan is


Feb 15, 2020, 6:08 AM

In ACC football, 4 teams besides us finished the 2020 recruiting cycle in the top 25: MIA, UNC, FSU and GT.

The other 9 teams combined for 11 4* players and 0 5*. Clemson had 11 and 5. Dabo outrecruited UVa, VaTech, Duke, Wake, Cuse, NCSt, BC, Pitt and Louisville COMBINED.

So when those teams have yoyo seasons, that's to be expected. When those other 4 (the top 25 teams) have yoyo seasons, that's disappointing.

Every football fan in the ACC except Clemson's feels just like our basketball fans do. But many of them show up and make noise every other Saturday in the fall, because that's what fans do. Obviously, not as many as at Clemson, but that's understandable since their reward is not the same, is it?

I think we are spoiled. It's easy for me to say, living multiple hours away, because rarely get to a game. But when this team gets rolling, all those season ticket holders' empty seats in LJ could come back to haunt us.

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You really want to compare ACC football


Feb 15, 2020, 6:54 AM

fans. You have 3 of 14 fanbases that regularly approach sellouts anymore. Us, VT and State. We'll see how FSU does with a new coach.

Did I really hear you say that Clemson basketball fans, are,,,,,,spoiled?

I'll ask the same question as many on here again, when? When will we be "rolling?" We haven't been rolling for 10 years. Rolling is more than a one way aberration where we make the tourney, or going .500 in a top heavy ACC. You're right though, if we ever do get rolling attendance will tick up. It always has, even on the mini-rolls we had under Ellis, Barnes and OP? We haven't even had a mini-roll for 10 years. When is the next mini-roll at least?

That's the one thing the status quo cant identify. When? Its hard to point to something that's never happened under the current coach, who happens to have the longest tenure in our history

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Re: You really want to compare ACC football


Feb 15, 2020, 10:31 AM

Like being in the stock market with a bad stock. Time to sell. As with all stocks, it may be better or worse. A old proven coach may be better, but an ipo may be good too. Maybe a new coach will get some fans in the seats.

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Re: You really want to compare ACC football


Feb 15, 2020, 11:39 AM [ in reply to You really want to compare ACC football ]

My point had nothing to do with ACC crowds failing to fill up small stadiums. It was that 30K people on 7 Saturdays every fall at those 9 schools go watch a football team that has only one chance every generation to go better than 8-4. They do it because they're fans, and they enjoy socializing with other fans, not because they 'have low expectations' or 'condone mediocrity'.

I used Tony Bennett as an example because he was a highly regarded successful P5 coach with a great coaching lineage and resume. He had nothing at UVa when he got there other than history and a university's commitment. But he already commanded respect in every conversation because of his experience and his connections formed at his father's side.

It's probably safe to assume that no recruit blew off a potential meeting with him, even if they thought they weren't interested.

Brownell didn't have any of that--some success at a mid-major, yes--but not the university's commitment, program history or personal heritage and took numerous years to get it. He still fights for respect after 10 years as evidenced by numerous posters who talk worse about him than the neighbor's dog! The fact that he inherited several good players whose skills were not the ones he develops best doesn't mean Clemson gave him some long term advantage. And I bet he still gets blown off by some potential recruits.

And I didn't criticize old school basketball itself. I criticized the "40 minutes of hell", high risk-high reward style as being gimmicky, middle school and ultimately unsuccessful at the highest levels in today's game. Teams can not force TOs at the same rate they used to because of better coaching in ball handling skills at the younger levels.

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You really want to compare ACC football


Feb 15, 2020, 6:54 AM [ in reply to Re: I consider that's what being a fan is ]

fans. You have 3 of 14 fanbases that regularly approach sellouts anymore. Us, VT and State. We'll see how FSU does with a new coach.

Did I really hear you say that Clemson basketball fans, are,,,,,,spoiled?

I'll ask the same question as many on here again, when? When will we be "rolling?" We haven't been rolling for 10 years. Rolling is more than a one way aberration where we make the tourney, or going .500 in a top heavy ACC. You're right though, if we ever do get rolling attendance will tick up. It always has, even on the mini-rolls we had under Ellis, Barnes and OP? We haven't even had a mini-roll for 10 years. When is the next mini-roll at least?

That's the one thing the status quo cant identify. When? Its hard to point to something that's never happened under the current coach, who happens to have the longest tenure in our history

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I would say, yes, definitely,


Feb 15, 2020, 7:33 AM

if I thought we were much closer to a change than we were ten years ago.

But I'm not sure we are.

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Re: Dear Tnet, I have a very simple basketball question


Feb 15, 2020, 7:50 AM

ABSOLUTELY!!

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Re: Dear Tnet, I have a very simple basketball question


Feb 15, 2020, 9:39 AM

If you are going to make a political analogy, its "Are you better off than you were 4 years ago".

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Re: Dear Tnet, I have a very simple basketball question


Feb 15, 2020, 10:16 AM

viztiz® said:

Are you better off than you were 10 years ago?



Let’s see: 20 years our coach who could not win a game in the big dance bolted for greener pastures. He did so because he knew a down period was on the horizon and the incoming class was sub par. He also knew our facilities were terrible so there was little hope of sustaining his average level of success.

Today we have a decent facility, good staff, program stability and a great incoming class of recruits. The only downside is our fans get dumber by the year as they don’t know where they came from or how to enjoy a competitive program. It’s almost like that want the current staff to fail based on their negativity

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OP left for a then big sum of money and a 7


Feb 15, 2020, 12:58 PM

year contract. Now, you can argue we couldn't match it, or that OP left poorly by not giving us the opportunity to do so. But he had a very highly regarded recruit committed in Thornton, who wound up at Georgia, and his highest rated class ever was entering their sophomore year. Facilities or whatever had not hurt his recruiting, it was on the upswing

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Re: OP left for a then big sum of money and a 7


Feb 15, 2020, 1:11 PM

yes, OP got nice $$ and some more years on a contract. but if you think that was the only issue, i've got a bridge for sale. there was a reason CU never got a chance to make a counter offer. you don't take the first train out of town, basically in the middle of the night, w/o discussing it with admn, staff or players just for a better contract.

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I agree, he left horribly


Feb 15, 2020, 2:05 PM

But the post I was responding to was making the case his recruiting was tanking. He'd signed his best class ever the year before he left and had a highly regarded recruit signed in the class when he left. His recruiting was on the upswing

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Re: Dear Tnet, I have a very simple basketball question


Feb 15, 2020, 10:16 AM

viztiz® said:

Are you better off than you were 10 years ago?



Let’s see: 20 years our coach who could not win a game in the big dance bolted for greener pastures. He did so because he knew a down period was on the horizon and the incoming class was sub par. He also knew our facilities were terrible so there was little hope of sustaining his average level of success.

Today we have a decent facility, good staff, program stability and a great incoming class of recruits. The only downside is our fans get dumber by the year as they don’t know where they came from or how to enjoy a competitive program. It’s almost like that want the current staff to fail based on their negativity

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Re: Dear Tnet, I have a very simple basketball question


Feb 15, 2020, 1:42 PM

Yeah you’re right. They shouldn’t even keep score. As long as we are competitive, these fans just need to keep their traps shut.

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Our great class, and it is by our standards


Feb 15, 2020, 2:09 PM [ in reply to Re: Dear Tnet, I have a very simple basketball question ]

ranks 9th in the ACC. I don't want anyone to fail. I also am fairly tired of being stuck in neutral when it comes to sustained progress in the program. We've seen that before, just not under Brownell.

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