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All-In [30593]
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Chad Morris thoughts...
Nov 17, 2014, 12:12 PM
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It's sad that I have to preface a post, but I guess I should since there are some idjits out... I have always been a Morris fan, and I was advocating for him when BN was let go. My take on where we are offensively is based on what I've seen over the last year and a half or so.
First, I disagree that Chad is a bad playcaller. I think he's a very good playcaller, within his system. I think he's a very good gameplanner as well, again, within his system. I have never questioned these two things.
However, over the last year and half or so, I really have begun to question our scheme. There is no doubt Clemson brings talent in. I don't have to rattle off the guys playing in the league to get that point across. I think we are very talented this year, especially outside. Williams, Peake, Hopper, etc.. are players, and you could argue there's not much of a dropoff at WR, even with Sammy gone.
At what point do you question our scheme?
A large part of our run game is based on deception, even moreso than AU's. We even use deception with our OL, mostly by showing pass pro in the run game. In theory, it works to get people out of position. But we clearly have struggled to run the ball for a while now. DW is our run game, period. I know Gallman has played well, but it's obvious that when DW is in the game, he's the threat. There's nothing wrong with that if you have some balance to your run game, but we don't.
Why can't we get elite RBs to play here, especially in a scheme is is supposed to be a "smashmouth" spread? Don't get me wrong, Gallman is playing well, and I hope he continues, but he's not an elite back. AE was elite. I would say JD was elite. The guys we have are good, but Tyson Dye is the only "true RB" that Morris has landed. I hope he turns out to be elite.
Is it b/c RBs look at the last 4 years, and they see that our short yardage answer was TB, and not a back? It took Hot Rod 13 games to get 1000 yds., and he finished 50th in the nation. Why can't a system that supposedly prides itself in running the ball not be in any better shape after almost 4 years?
Mike Bellamy was brought here to be a Spiller clone. Oglesby is currently playing WR at prep school. Zac Brooks was recruited as both a RB and WR by many schools. Gallman was recruited as a db by other schools, as well as a RB. Maybe we'll land Feaster, idk.
This element has cost us vs. SCU and FSU the last few years, no question. It cost us when DW went out against GT, and almost did against Cuse, BC, and UofL. These are all teams that we out talent, and it's not even close.
This is not a "fire Chad" post. But at what point do we start getting the Duke Johnson's, Mike Davis's, Todd Gurley's, Dalvin Cook's, etc... That's what we're missing. The more I watch, the more it seems like the reason we keep missing those guys is b/c we are intent to utilize our QB more than our backs. Like I said, I think this is an area where CM has gotten away from what Gus does. Gus absolutely uses Marshall in the run game, but they are a threat w/o him too.
As a Chad Morris fan, and someone who has always been a fan of the spread and even coached in it... I am starting to wonder if we have topped out b/c of what Chad is trying to do scheme wise.
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Legend [17279]
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Good thoughts... agree on addition of more traditional
Nov 17, 2014, 12:18 PM
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running game elements.
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110%er [8015]
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A lot of it has to do with what we've had the past few years
Nov 17, 2014, 12:22 PM
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We've had a QB in Tajh who could sling the ball all around and a bunch of NFL WRs. Chad has been playing to the strength of his personnel over the past couple of seasons, and the strength has been through the air. A guy like Hot Rod was serviceable because we could pass to open the run.
I think what you're seeing now is Chad attempting to switch from a pass first to a run first team. But when you're trying to incorporate a whole new system, there are going to be bumps along the way. It worked when we had Deshaun because we had a threat to run or pass. He also made the RBs around him better, much like you see with Nick Marshall at Auburn. Cole doesn't do that right now, unfortunately.
We have some good RBs on the roster. Whenever Dye is ready, he'll be a big back we need. When Choice comes back, he'll be a good combo of speed and power. Gallman is starting to come into his own. If we land Feaster, our run game will get a giant boost.
Morris has been playing to his personnel the past few seasons, like I said. But you'll see it change and you'll see the run game improve in the coming seasons.
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All-In [30593]
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I hope Dye is the guy.... but I still think CM is going to
Nov 17, 2014, 12:25 PM
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have to rethink his run tendencies and how we want to do that. I think we use too much deception, to the point that no one pays it any attention.
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110%er [8015]
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I actually kind of agree.
Nov 17, 2014, 12:28 PM
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It kills me seeing us run the fake jet/shovel toss and never actually give it off. I was sitting in BDS on Saturday calling for it the entire game, because we were much quicker than them sideline to sideline. I think we ran it once, and got 8 or 9 yards, then never saw it again.
If we want it to work, we actually have to run it more times than once.
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All-Pro [693]
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This is one of the major problems
Nov 17, 2014, 2:20 PM
[ in reply to I hope Dye is the guy.... but I still think CM is going to ] |
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Defenses are no longer paying attention to our pre-snap motion and fakes and keying in on the few plays we actually run, like GT jumping the screens. I really like the motion but I do believe at some point you have to just line up and run a play without trying to be deceptive.
I also think the staying in pass pro blocking even on running plays has got to go. I know that the option is there to pass and you have to factor that into the O-line blocking scheme but if you watch teams that successfully run the ball they pull guards, TE's, and have 2 backs in the back field sometimes. Backs like Gurley and Chubb are great but they are also running through holes 10yds wide. I agree that our O-line is not great talent wise but I do not think our scheme helps matters either. If you have to have a line full of 5* linemen for Chad's system to work properly then it will never reach its full potential here. Even though our current recruiting class has some really great linemen in it, history says we cannot recruit high rated linemen consistently at Clemson.
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All-In [30593]
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the eye candy and deception are good when you can run the
Nov 17, 2014, 2:21 PM
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ball
AU can
we cannot... and I think that's where we're getting hurt. If we were running it on people like AU, I would be all for our deception and motion... but I think scheme wise it limits us.
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CU Guru [1845]
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Be careful...
Nov 17, 2014, 12:24 PM
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You will get harassed for saying Gallman is not elite!
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Hall of Famer [21815]
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Gallman isn't elite in any one attribute, but he's pretty
Nov 17, 2014, 12:31 PM
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d@mn well rounded if you ask me.
His biggest attribute looks to be heart and the fact that he likes to be violent.
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All-TigerNet [13360]
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Re: Chad Morris thoughts...
Nov 17, 2014, 12:27 PM
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I agree and I think you are thoughtful in you assessment. I will add one thing...
Jimmy's and Joe's... not X's and O's
The big thing with this system is I believe it attracts better Jimmy's and Joe's. I think what people have a hard time with is that the system itself is really not a ton better, just different in what parts of a defense you try to exploit. When you dont have the talent to exploit those weaknesses, it is tough to watch. The QB is the obvious point here, but I think the running game actually more clearly illustrates this.
Again not disagreeing with the OP, just adding this in.
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Legend [16629]
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This is spot on.
Nov 17, 2014, 12:27 PM
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At some point it is reasonable to question the scheme, and that's related to what appears to be a lack of offensive identity as well. Chad doesn't really seem to know what he wants the offense to do out there from one series to the next. I can't accept the lack of talent, injuries, thin OL, etc excuses. This is year four of this system, and I am baffled by the fact that Chad's had over a month without DW to develop something that resembles an offense, and it hasn't happened.
You are absolutely right about the short yardage running issues. It is absolutely killing us all over the field, but in the red zone specifically. Boyd was able to cover up this shortcoming for several years.
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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Didn't see the offensive line addressed much
Nov 17, 2014, 12:28 PM
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A good OL makes this all go away. Chad isn't an OL coach, and the talent is starting to come in on the line.
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All-In [30593]
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I disagree on that....
Nov 17, 2014, 12:31 PM
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yes, the OL coach is responsible for a lot... HOWEVER, the OC determines:
1. the type of kids you recruit for scheme
2. the technique you play with (2pt./3 pt./ zone steps, etc..)
3. what they are asked to do scheme wise....
There is player development that falls on OL coaches, but, for the most part, the OC makes the decisions on how we're gonna block something and what our technique is going to be.
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All-TigerNet [13360]
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Re: I disagree on that....
Nov 17, 2014, 12:37 PM
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Honest Q york,
How may different types of OLmen are there? (How would you specify what OL guys you were going after?) I just thought the biggest, strongest, best technique guys were what everyone goes for? I have assumed you were just looking for the same thing no matter what the scheme was. No?
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All-In [30593]
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absolutely not...
Nov 17, 2014, 12:43 PM
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Do you remember the Rich Rod days? TB and RR made it no secret they wanted smaller, quicker OL. Why? Because we got on the edges a ton, and b/c of our screen game. Look at teams that run the Air Raid. Their screen game is so complex, and their splits so wide, that they generally target smaller, quicker OL.
I don't think Morris is doing that. But every scheme is different. Alabama is going to get in the I and run it down your throat. They ask their OL to do something different than we ask ours to.
Look at how much we roll the pocket. You better be athletic on the OL if you're gonna do that.
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All-TigerNet [13360]
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Re: absolutely not...
Nov 17, 2014, 1:41 PM
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I always thought that was a cop out...
In reality, doesnt everyone want the bigger, faster, more talented guys; but there are only so many of those guys to go around. Because we havnt had a lot of those guys, you form a game plan around that. I hear what you are saying that you would take a leaner guy as long as he could seal an edge, but if you had the option, wouldnt you want to have the ability to run guys over?
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All-In [30593]
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no... that's what RR does/did... and he was good at it
Nov 17, 2014, 2:39 PM
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I remember everyone was shocked by that... but that was their philosophy
RR didn't feel having 300+ lb. guys would help him do what he wanted
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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I didn't say anything about OL coaches
Nov 17, 2014, 12:43 PM
[ in reply to I disagree on that.... ] |
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I didn't say anything about OL coaches. I don't place a ton of blame on the OL coaches. They haven't had much to work with. What we have is a talent evaluation and recruiting issue, combined with some very bad luck.
Recruiting isn't divided up on a per-position basis, it's more regionally determined. Venables has helped seal the deal with some offensive recruits, for example.
As a staff, we haven't recruited the "type" of offensive linemen that could win in most systems. We've been under-sized at some spots, lacking athleticism in others, and plagued with injury. We have a talent issue.
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All-In [30593]
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I don't disagree with that...
Nov 17, 2014, 12:45 PM
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but, like you said, it goes back to player development and scheme
There's a reason it's hard to get a big, nasty OL to come here, if he's going to be used to roll the pocket or use a lot of deception in the run game.
you don't think other schools know that and use it against us?
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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I don't think it's "hard" at all. I think we underestimated
Nov 17, 2014, 12:48 PM
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the number of linemen we needed. Notice how when things got really bad, we suddenly land some big nasties. And we've also landed some big nasties in the last two years, they just ended up either getting hurt (Maverick and I think one or two others), quitting, or not panning out (Region).
However, for every hit (Battle, Beasly, Guillermo) there have been more misses. And that's on the entire staff. That's a lack of luck and a talent and character evaluation issue. Not a Chad issue.
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All-In [30593]
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who's issue is it when it comes to what we ask them to
Nov 17, 2014, 1:03 PM
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do and how we do it?
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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It's a full staff issue
Nov 17, 2014, 1:13 PM
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It starts with recruiting, motivation, strength work, disciplining, and ends with scheme and god-given talent.
It'd be very ignorant to point at one coach, when it's an issue contributed to by multiple/many staff members, ranging from recruiting, to development, to motivation/cheerleading, to disciplining.
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All-In [30593]
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right***
Nov 17, 2014, 1:14 PM
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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Your OP mostly harped on Chad Morris. Wrong.***
Nov 17, 2014, 1:16 PM
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All-In [30593]
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you are struggling... my OP was about
Nov 17, 2014, 1:28 PM
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Chad Morris' scheme, goods and bads and ways he's tweaked it.
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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And to be clear
Nov 17, 2014, 12:45 PM
[ in reply to I didn't say anything about OL coaches ] |
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"Chad isn't an OL coach" was more meant to point out that your analysis omitted the single biggest problem (the OL) and instead talked at length about Chad. The problem is the OL, Chad doesn't coach the OL, I think your analysis is useless without even a single mention of the line. It focused on Chad and his scheme too much.
This is the weakest, most shallow OL unit we've had in some time. Chad isn't a magician. Without an OL, you've got a building whose foundation is built in sand.
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All-In [30593]
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This is year 4, and it's his unit....
Nov 17, 2014, 12:47 PM
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there's a reason these elite OL aren't coming here, just like with the RBs
That's not a knock on Chad, but it's the truth. You recruit to your scheme... that doesn't just apply to skill positions.
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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They *are* coming here. Look at this upcoming class
Nov 17, 2014, 12:49 PM
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Even look at the last one or two. We've had some highly touted guys sign up (Guillermo #1 center, Region, Morris, Battle). It just hasn't worked out. Region was a missed evaluation. Morris was bad luck. Battle has done pretty well, but he's not getting a ton of help. Guillermo has been pretty good but injured a lot this year.
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All-In [30593]
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we can do this dance all day
Nov 17, 2014, 12:57 PM
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but the fact remains that either a.)they haven't worked out, or b.)they're on the way....
that's been the same line for 4 years now
There is too much talent at Clemson for us to not be able to run the ball at people, especially when DW goes down.
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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Yes, you are agreeing with me. I didn't like your analysis
Nov 17, 2014, 1:01 PM
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I'm saying you were focusing too much on Chad in your original analysis, without addressing the root issue (the OL). It's a greater staff issue, not so much a "just Chad" issue. This falls on Chad, Jeff Scott (the recruiting coordinator), Dabo, and everyone else who has been responsible for talking to or evaluating OL talent.
So: Your analysis fixated on Chad and his scheme without a single mention of the OL. I think it's completely off the mark as a result.
I point out the issue with the OL and that it's a greater staff issue. We've also had some bad luck, which can't be put on anyone. But mostly it's the whole staff involved in recruiting and talent evaluation.
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All-In [30593]
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that's not true... you cannot seperate Chad from the OL
Nov 17, 2014, 1:02 PM
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I apologize for not mentioning it in my original post...
but CM has everything to do with the OL, especially once we get them on campus. Everything, and it's crazy to suggest otherwise.
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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"Everything" is an absolute. It's rarely ever correct.
Nov 17, 2014, 1:07 PM
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And again, my original point was that your analysis was pretty much useless without a single mention of the OL.
The rest of this discussion is just nitpicky circle talk about the why (which I shouldn't have ever even brought up). Your original analysis omitting a single mention of the single biggest problem with our offense makes it mostly useless, in my eyes.
This offense is built on a fatally flawed foundation, and no amount of scheming and skill position talent will help that. This goes well beyond Chad Morris and his scheme. There's lots of blame to be placed all over the staff, Dabo included.
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All-In [30593]
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The OL excuse is four years old, if not older...
Nov 17, 2014, 1:09 PM
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we have some good OL on campus...
its more a reflection of what we ask them to do
carry on
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Orange Blooded [4098]
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Re: The OL excuse is four years old, if not older...
Nov 17, 2014, 1:11 PM
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try TWENTY YEARS and counting!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!we have to throw to try tom pick-up first down on 3rd and 1!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! pitiful
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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Looking at who is starting for us this upcoming week
Nov 17, 2014, 1:15 PM
[ in reply to The OL excuse is four years old, if not older... ] |
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Looking at who is starting for us this upcoming week (potentially three backups), it's funny to see you waving this off as a non-issue.
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All-In [30593]
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I don't think it's a non-issue at all... I tie it in to my
Nov 17, 2014, 1:27 PM
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original post and the scheme we run...
We are too talented to be this bad when a true frosh goes down... Where have I "waved it off"?
Your point is that it's the reason we are so bad, and mine is that it is tied to our scheme and what they are asked to do.
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Ring of Honor [26353]
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TL;DR
Nov 17, 2014, 12:28 PM
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JK
Good post York
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CU Guru [1929]
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Re: Chad Morris thoughts...
Nov 17, 2014, 12:28 PM
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This is the only thing I'be read in the last 24-36 hours that is spot on. Thanks York.
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Orange Blooded [2253]
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Re: Chad Morris thoughts...
Nov 17, 2014, 12:29 PM
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I agree. We seem to be addressing our OL situation but we need some stud runing backs.
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110%er [5962]
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Probably because we haven't had that big RB to put up those
Nov 17, 2014, 12:30 PM
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numbers. All the hype around our "smashmouth" has been on the receivers, hence WRU. Boyd had to be our big back because we didn't have one. There's nothing to show to the Todd Gurleys of the recruiting world what a true, big RB could do in our system. But it does seem odd that we can't get the guy that wants to be the one to find out. We were pretty close to getting Gurley though, it would be interesting to see where we'd be with him here.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Probably because we haven't had that big RB to put up those
Nov 17, 2014, 12:32 PM
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What's confusing to me is that there are tons of proven 3 star running backs out there as far as high school goes.
When we miss on our blue-chip RB targets, we're bringing in tweeners and guys who got offers as LBs and DBs.
Surely there's someone like Brandon Wilds or some serviceable natural RB that we're just completely whiffing on.
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Scout Team [190]
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Re: Chad Morris thoughts...
Nov 17, 2014, 12:42 PM
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We have missed out on Gurley/Cook/Duke just like those teams missed out on CJ Spiller and Andre Ellington. It isn't like those teams get those impact players in every class (well maybe FSU and Bama do).
As great as it would have been to get Gurley or Cook, who were both high on Clemson, it all starts up front. 2015 looks promising for OL but we have all heard that before.
DW4 was making an average to below average line look great. Imagine what he can do with a good OL and an explosive RB.
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Oculus Spirit [96818]
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Great post!
Nov 17, 2014, 12:43 PM
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Wasn't it Hot Rod that said CM was "spitting in the RBs faces" when we relied on TB for the 3rd and short & 4th and short plays.
I'm willing to bet this was used on the recruiting trail by other coaches.
Wasn't Feaster a Clemson "lock" at one time, but no longer? What happened?
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110%er [8015]
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It was DJ Howard, which is hilarious.***
Nov 17, 2014, 12:46 PM
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Oculus Spirit [96818]
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OK thanks for setting me straight on this***
Nov 17, 2014, 1:01 PM
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110%er [6673]
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Very unwise to give away his "20 plays for Cole" GT had them
Nov 17, 2014, 1:06 PM
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down pat. and he tried to make a pro-style qb fit his spread system. He should be flexible enough to have some pro-style qb plays for Cole, and certainly put him under center on 3rd and short. Even for DW, his 3 down plays in red zone were very predictable! Wise up Chad please and help qb's lead us to victory against usuck!
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Orange Blooded [2065]
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It's chicken and egg argument...
Nov 17, 2014, 1:13 PM
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I'm always interested to see whether a coach will implement his "system" regardless of available talent or tweak the "system" around the talent he has.
I think Paul Johnson is in the former category. He's going to run his option, and that's all there is to it. He's finally got a QB that can run his system.
Is Morris the opposite? I think if he would show he's committed to a real run game, then he wouldn't have any trouble getting a good RB. Take Mark Richt for instance. Even when he had mediocre running backs, he would still run them into a brick wall and force the other team to defend it. I think recruits, such as Gurley, took notice of that and they've got a lot of good backs now.
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Orange Blooded [2217]
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Re: Chad Morris thoughts...
Nov 17, 2014, 2:29 PM
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Morris thought he was getting Gurley, that's why he didn't put effort into getting Mike Favis. Davis felt dissed & went to cootville & you know what Gurley did
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All-TigerNet [14488]
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I agree, good post***
Nov 17, 2014, 2:41 PM
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Legend [16629]
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I'd be very curious to know just
Nov 17, 2014, 2:45 PM
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why someone would TD this post.
Moran.
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CU Guru [1512]
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Re: Chad Morris thoughts...
Nov 17, 2014, 5:40 PM
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Really> you are beginning to wonder if we topped out on his system That train left the station last year
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Orange Blooded [3590]
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Let's ignore the weak teams and focus on the ranked opponent
Nov 17, 2014, 6:20 PM
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We cannot protect the QB in the pocket.
We cannot create lanes for our RB's.
We cannot move their D line off the ball.
We cannot drive it down their throats.
What does that leave us?
Not nearly as much as we need.
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110%er [5014]
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Re: Chad Morris thoughts...
Nov 17, 2014, 6:46 PM
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To be successful with a "smash-mouth spread", first, you must be able to smash mouths. We don't do that very well.
* We pass-block very well and we used to zone-block fairly well on off-tackle runs. But, to play real smash-mouth, you have to run between the tackles. In order to do that, you have to be able to do what I call "drive-block" (maybe an old term, since I played in the '60s). Drive-blocking requires the blocker, whether he's a pulling guard, tackle or center, a tackle, guard or center or a TE, to bend at the knees, lower a shoulder and get into the gut of the defender, turn him a little and drive his #### backwards. Done correctly, it opens holes and if you can get your guy on the ground, it allows you to get to the second level and take on LBs and safeties. If you watch our run-blocking, it's a stand-up and push the defender on the shoulders. To me, that's a lousy way to move someone out of the way. You have nearly no leverage (except to turn your guy) and you don't get to use the power that is produced by your legs. Body blows delivered by drive-blocking in conjunction with forearm shivers to the opponent's midsection will (over time) make a defender quit and turn away from the block. In my opinion, we need to change our run-blocking methods.
* A scat-back like Gallman and a mobile QB like Watson keep the OLBs and safeties on the edges to protect against the outside bounce. Once a concrete deer like Stoudt comes into the game, they begin to crowd the middle of the line, effectively reducing any blocking the O-line can do..... the holes disappear and the slow runner can't bounce outside. You don't always need a FB to run up the middle if you have a scat-back and a mobile QB, but if you can get a big, quick RB like Todd Gurley in combination with a dual-threat QB, then you have the best of both worlds.
* We might (and I stress "might") be better to give up the idea of the TE H-back or 3-back position for many of our run plays and use a FB along with a RB on some (not all run plays. I'm not coaching the team, so I can't say for sure, but there are times when it appears that our H-back does not get good blocking angles after his motion to the opposite side. Our TEs also look very tentative in motion blocking - heck, they even look timid when blocking on the same edge where they line up. Since I played TE, I suppose I can say I'm at least a little bit qualified to say that. They're also guilty of poor blocking style...... way too slow and not nearly physical enough.
* We appear to have given up on throwing the ball to the TEs, why, I don't know. Maybe they can't run routes or maybe they can't catch...... whatever the reason, we seem to have given up on anything other than the go-route on the boundary side. Where is the TE slant, the slot-slant, the TE drag and the skinny post? Maybe we can't throw those routes - or maybe we can't run and catch them. In my opinion, we lost a great prospect when Jeb Blazevich didn't choose Clemson. That guy's a horse a QB could ride for 4 years.
Anyway, enough rambling....... if you read it, thanks - just an old man's rambling thoughts.... and one who really wants to see this team beat the livin' crap outta the coots in a couple of weeks.
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Orange Blooded [3590]
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What he said!***
Nov 17, 2014, 6:51 PM
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