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Starter [384]
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Brad Brownell Future
Mar 2, 2020, 9:14 AM
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Let's say off chance BB makes the tournament with a 19-14 record wins 2 games in the tournament and we finish 21-15.
This has Clemson's past 3 years: 25-10 (NCAAT), 20-16 (NIT), 21-15 (NCAAT).
It's not unreasonable to say Clemson can beat VT on the road and GT at home. The 5 seed would have us playing the lowest seed from the first round, putting Clemson in a position to get a easier win if we show up. We have 3 upsets, 1 more isn't impossible in the qtr finals.
Brownell has a excellent record when he makes the NCAAT, coaching beats talent when you get there. It's not unreasonable to say we could make it to the sweet 16 again if we get the right matchups early on (Like the coots their final four year).
With those 3 years, someone would likely come after Brownell, as much as many of you hate him, there are some schools who would die to average 20 wins a year. We would likely have to secure Brownell's salary again, but does he have the resume to get that under this scenario? His daughters go to school here, so that would help us in the long run.
I feel if we make the tournament again with this team (that many predicted wouldn't even get to the NIT), then Brownell deserves an extension. We had 1 losing season in this decade, half of our teams in the decade before had losing seasons. We are constantly making headlines now with us upsetting top teams, not starting 13-0 and limping to 20-10 with a 7-9 ACC record.
Many will say that's still only 3 appearances in 10 years, but the first 6 seasons he was here was in the old littlejohn that became unrecruitable. Clemson has the #1 player in the state signed, another 4 star, and was Duke staying away from getting Zion (we all know they bought that house). Recruiting is up trending, the UNC streak is over, we are beating top teams.
You all will hate this, but even if we make the NIT, we will ultimately have to extend Brownell to keep him. You don't think these teams with records 10 games under 500 won't see these upsets and the success he is having at a place that is consistently mediocre at basketball? The NCAAT wins are what sells him, coaches many times get there but can't win (OP) there. Brownell will leave us with the extremely small buyout next season if another team sends him an offer and we refuse to commit.
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CU Guru [1293]
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Re: Brad Brownell Future
Mar 2, 2020, 9:18 AM
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Dude. This is Clemson basketball (no matter who the coach is). Let’s just take this one game at a time. Let’s just beat VT.
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Starter [384]
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Re: Brad Brownell Future
Mar 2, 2020, 10:12 AM
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That's my point. OP's whole tenure he thrived on winning in OOC and losing ACC games. Brad is the first to have consistent success for us in the conference. We've only found ourselves in the first four of the ACCT once. Something happened after the UNC game during Blossomgame's Senior year. Brad put Avery Holmes in the position to make one of two FTS to beat UNC and he made 0. How is that his fault? Win that and Clemson is 12-2 and entering the top 25. At some point people need to understand making a FT in a college game isn't the same as when they played in middle school or high school. You have some of the best players in the world around you and you get tired. Clemson's starters can play with their starter's but they have bench player's just as good as ours...It's not as hard to make layups when you're tired, when you're standing still and having to make a straight basketball shot, it's harder. That is not Brad's fault.
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CU Guru [1536]
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Re: Brad Brownell Future
Mar 2, 2020, 1:45 PM
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I see what your saying and not making an argument either way... and I admit I haven’t searched stats, but I can’t totally agree with that about OP... he had two tie for 5th and one third place finish his last three years in what I would say was a lot tougher acc schedule then than now or really the last few years as far as depth outside of duke and unc (which were even better back then) , also someone correct me or let me know but when did we start this scheduling , what i mean is when did we stop playing unc and duke, etc twice a year ... could have been before OP I was just saying that statement about only winning acc games isn’t tru... I mean he did take us to an ACC champ game which we haven’t sniffed since
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All-In [40088]
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I’m just hoping we make it to the elite eight
Mar 2, 2020, 9:21 AM
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Of the NIT this year
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CU Medallion [67622]
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Re: I’m just hoping we make it to the elite eight
Mar 2, 2020, 9:26 AM
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I thought you were meaning elite 8 of the ACC which it looks like we might this year
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All-In [40088]
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It was mainly a joke. But yeah looking better for the acct.
Mar 2, 2020, 9:33 AM
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This team is interesting because as others have stated we can beat anybody on a given night but we can also lose to anybody. Would love either a little consistency or better yet for them to just get hot and stay hot for awhile.
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Starter [384]
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Re: I’m just hoping we make it to the elite eight
Mar 2, 2020, 10:13 AM
[ in reply to I’m just hoping we make it to the elite eight ] |
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I think this team has the talent to win the NIT. 18-14 finish with the wins we have could net them a 1 or 2 seed. It would be a good accomplishment for a team many felt in the preseason would be the worst basketball team in Clemson history.
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Legend [19567]
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You keep saying many expected this to be
Mar 2, 2020, 10:19 AM
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the worst team in Clemson history. Your ignorance of how many really bad teams we've had is astounding. Barnes first team was literally referred to by media as the worst team in ACC history in the preseason
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All-In [43979]
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Barnes did a very good job coaching the "Slab Five"
Mar 2, 2020, 3:37 PM
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but there is no way that would've been the worst team in ACC history. Not even close.
Let's not forget that team had two future NBA players on it. Devin Gray was on that roster, and the media didn't know that he would miss most of that year. Greg Buckner was a freshman on that team, and we obviously didn't know he would be a future NBA player.
Again, not taking anything away from the job Barnes did making that team competitive, but the legend of the Slab Five has grown over the years much like that fish someone's grandpappy caught that keeps getting bigger as the story gets told.
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Legend [19567]
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But that was the preseason media narrative
Mar 2, 2020, 5:44 PM
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No one was saying that this year. We were picked 11th. That's the point for mountaineer who keeps spewing his line about this being predicted as the worst Clemson team ever
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Legend [16900]
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Re: Barnes did a very good job coaching the "Slab Five"
Mar 2, 2020, 7:38 PM
[ in reply to Barnes did a very good job coaching the "Slab Five" ] |
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It’s not a legend. It’s not a fish story. They were the unanimous last place team by the ACC media. That hadn’t happened before and it got them tagged as worst ever. Perhaps Barnes should get some credit for developing that team. Perhaps Brownell deserves some blame for failing to develop the players he inherited. But neither furthers your narrative.
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110%er [5430]
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Re: Barnes did a very good job coaching the "Slab Five"
Mar 2, 2020, 9:31 PM
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Very good post. Judge would suc peckers before he gave Barnes credit. Barnes is the best coach we ever had
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Legend [19567]
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And it's not close***
Mar 2, 2020, 10:11 PM
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Legend [16900]
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Re: I’m just hoping we make it to the elite eight
Mar 2, 2020, 7:34 PM
[ in reply to Re: I’m just hoping we make it to the elite eight ] |
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Not the first time you’ve asserted this and you can’t name one source for it. Given that 4 teams were ranked below us by the media writers your assertion is pretty much false on it’s face. Barnes’s first team was unanimous last place in the preseason poll which had never happened, hence the assertion they were the worst team in conference history.
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110%er [5430]
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Re: I’m just hoping we make it to the elite eight
Mar 2, 2020, 9:34 PM
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I think judge may have two handels
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110%er [5430]
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Re: I’m just hoping we make it to the elite eight
Mar 2, 2020, 9:26 PM
[ in reply to Re: I’m just hoping we make it to the elite eight ] |
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You have no clue. Youngster. Who said this would be the worst team ever ? Link ?? Check the slab five. You goofy little moron
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Oculus Spirit [76638]
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Re: I’m just hoping we make it to the elite eight
Mar 3, 2020, 6:12 PM
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Did you forget your happy pills? Dang!
It’s handle.
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Legend [19567]
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Just roll the contract over and keep the buyout falling
Mar 2, 2020, 9:32 AM
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He's earned next year. He's earned nothing beyond that. A fact of the Brownell era is when his teams have had higher expectations entering a year, they've underachieved in meeting those expectations. JB's senior year and last year the prime examples. Next year will have higher expectations. He needs to meet them. Period.
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110%er [7920]
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Re: Just roll the contract over and keep the buyout falling
Mar 2, 2020, 9:37 AM
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He's earned next year. He's earned nothing beyond that. A fact of the Brownell era is when his teams have had higher expectations entering a year, they've underachieved in meeting those expectations. JB's senior year and last year the prime examples. Next year will have higher expectations. He needs to meet them. Period.
He has finished higher than the preseason projection 8 of his 10 years including this year so what are you talking about?
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Legend [19567]
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And the two years the team had NCAA expectations
Mar 2, 2020, 9:49 AM
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entering the year, they underachieved. Exceeding low expectations he does, exceeding higher expectations he has yet to do
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Starter [384]
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Re: Just roll the contract over and keep the buyout falling
Mar 2, 2020, 9:58 AM
[ in reply to Re: Just roll the contract over and keep the buyout falling ] |
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You cannot even consider the seasons before 2016-2017. I'm not even sure if their practice facilities were much better at the ones at Fike. There's a reason OP ran first chance he could and if we refuse to extend Brownell after more success this year the same will happen.
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Legend [19567]
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That's a stale argument
Mar 2, 2020, 10:12 AM
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To say 7 years of his tenure he's simply unaccountable for is ridiculous. Good coaches have and are winning at schools who have subpar facilities. It occurred here before him
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Starter [384]
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Re: That's a stale argument
Mar 2, 2020, 10:17 AM
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How many NCAA tournament wins did we have between 2000-2010? I'm not interested in just going to the dance, I want to WIN. Brad is the first coach in forever who had us anywhere near a national title, Clemson plays better in the first half and beats Kansas they would've been in the elite eight.
Either way, overachieving 8 years Is better then underachieving 2.
It's laughable you say that it occurred here in the near past. had Clemson 9-7 in a weaker ACC constantly and always had us losing in the first round of the NCAAT. I think a Sweet 16 appearance trumps 3 first round bounces
Brad Brownell NCAA Record at Clemson: 3-2 Oliver Purnell: 0-3.
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Legend [19567]
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I want a job where I'm unaccountable for 70%
Mar 2, 2020, 10:21 AM
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of my tenure. We've never been close to a National Championship in basketball
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Orange Blooded [2287]
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Re: I want a job where I'm unaccountable for 70%
Mar 2, 2020, 10:27 AM
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I remember being very excited and honestly thinking we had a shot back in 1989-90. Of course I was 13 years old back then though.
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Legend [19567]
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That team was fun but never had the guard play
Mar 2, 2020, 10:31 AM
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to threaten for a championship. 79-80 with Conrad, Billy William's and Chris Dodd and that frontline would be the closest
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Legend [16900]
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Re: That's a stale argument
Mar 2, 2020, 1:37 PM
[ in reply to Re: That's a stale argument ] |
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Our last major Littlejohn renovation was Shyatt’s last year. It’d be nice if y’all would quit acting like they were practicing in a high school gym.
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All-In [43979]
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Okay, so we had two coaches who did a nice job
Mar 2, 2020, 3:43 PM
[ in reply to That's a stale argument ] |
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despite what you perceive as a less than ideal situation. That's like saying that someone got rich from buying a lottery ticket. Sure, it's possible, but it isn't necessarily likely.
Pointing out that we had some success in the past despite less-than-ideal conditions doesn't change the fact that we should give our coaches every advantage we can in order to do their jobs.
However, let's not forget that Barnes coached in an era when facilities didn't matter nearly as much as they do today. He was also allowed to build a team around very physical play akin to the college version of the Detroit Pistons' Bad Boy teams. That wouldn't be allowed today. And Purnell came to Clemson just after facility enhancements, which occurred near the end of the Shyatt era. He had new facilities to show recruits, although they weren't ideal.
Besides, neither Barnes nor Purnell proved that they could sustain their success at Clemson, because they left for what they perceived as better opportunities. In fact, neither coach even gave Clemson the opportunity to keep them. That is very telling in terms of how happy those coaches were at Clemson, and how confident they felt about continuing their success here.
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Legend [16112]
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It's like the Gamecocks expecting every football coach they
Mar 2, 2020, 4:54 PM
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hire form here on out to beat us 5 times in a row because Slurrier did it
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Orange Blooded [2287]
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Re: Just roll the contract over and keep the buyout falling
Mar 2, 2020, 10:09 AM
[ in reply to Re: Just roll the contract over and keep the buyout falling ] |
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I found this statement surprising, so I decided to fact check it. Based on the ACC's preseason media poll, Clemson has finished higher than media expectations 6 out of the 10 years Brownell has been coach (including this year).
Higher than expections - 2010/11, 2013/14, 2014/15, 2015/16, 2017/18, 2019/20
Equal to expectations - 2011/12
Lower than expectations - 2012/13, 2016/17, 2018/19
Better than I expected actually! Of course it is not too hard to beat expectations though when expectations are 11th or lower for 6 of the 10 years.
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Legend [19567]
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And that's my point
Mar 2, 2020, 10:16 AM
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He has exceeded lower expectations regularly. Has has yet to meet or exceed in years with higher expectations. Next year will have higher expectations. Let's see how he does before extending him as the OP suggests must happen. That is, unless we're satisfied with low expectations
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CU Medallion [55269]
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Re: Just roll the contract over and keep the buyout falling
Mar 2, 2020, 10:13 AM
[ in reply to Re: Just roll the contract over and keep the buyout falling ] |
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I don't think that he has done enough to get a raise, and I don't think that he would leave before the end of next season if he doesn't get a raise.
I do think that if Brad was offered a job at another school that would equal his job at Clemson, I believe he would be gone bc, I think that he knows his job at Clemson is on Thin Ice!!!
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Legend [19567]
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If the program is to truly move forward
Mar 2, 2020, 10:26 AM
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we have to have consistently high expectations and actually meet them. Brad hasnt done that. He can begin doing it next year. I hope he does, but why in the world would you extend a guy who will be going in to year 11 who has never done that? A roll over of the contract keeping the lower buyout allows him the opportunity to do so and have the contractual stability to recruit. Its commonplace
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CU Medallion [58323]
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We have been beat down into pathetically low expectations.
Mar 2, 2020, 12:18 PM
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If we don't win big, that's okay, because we just can't expect any better. If we win 20 games, thats a great year, no matter our post season fate; we should just celebrate that. Let's not expect too much. I say that's a loser mentality and we should change it. And we can.
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All-In [43979]
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Legend [19567]
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I'd love for it to be his last job
Mar 2, 2020, 9:26 PM
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but he has to earn that. Even you'd agree with that. First step is having higher expectations and actually meeting them. He gets another opportunity to do that next year.
But to rework his contract and extend him again at this point as the OP suggests would be lunacy
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110%er [5430]
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110%er [9656]
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All-In [43979]
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This is yet another ridiculous talking point that gets
Mar 2, 2020, 3:39 PM
[ in reply to Re: Just roll the contract over and keep the buyout falling ] |
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repeated here regularly.
"Brownell's teams are inconsistent."
"Brownell does better when his job is on the line."
"Brownell does better when his teams aren't expected to do much."
Etc.
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Legend [19567]
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He does do better when expectations are lower
Mar 2, 2020, 9:31 PM
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he's consistently out performed expectations when we've been picked low. That's not a narrative, that's his record. In the two years when he himself was saying they were a tourney team, 16-17 and 18-19, they haven't met expectations. That's also his record.
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CU Medallion [67622]
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Legend [19567]
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Which exceeded mediocre expectations
Mar 2, 2020, 10:09 AM
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he's been good at that. He has not been successful in meeting or exceeding higher expectations. Expectations were much higher the years before and after that run
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Starter [384]
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Re: Which exceeded mediocre expectations
Mar 2, 2020, 10:21 AM
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Again, where are the high expectations from? CBB is not the same game as the 80s and 90s, you can't compare success from those years to now. Clemson has won 20 games 2 years in a row. The expectations were inflated for last year because Devoe and Grantham we're a big part of why that team even got as high of a seed as they did. The team won 22 in the good year regular season and 19 the next year. How is it such a shock they fell 3 wins after losing 2 seniors? Brownell also reportedly had a silent commitment from Zion, so he expected to have the best one-and-done player in CBB. Clemson likely would've contended for the national title had they got him.
Message was edited by: Clemsontiger179812®
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Legend [19567]
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You're clearly happy exceeding low expectations
Mar 2, 2020, 10:36 AM
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and making excuses when higher expectations go un-met. We're taking about future expectations for the program. I for one want us meeting and exceeding higher expectations. Brad will have the opportunity to do that next year. He needs to prove he can
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Starter [384]
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Re: You're clearly happy exceeding low expectations
Mar 2, 2020, 10:55 AM
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I'm not happy. I'm also not going to fault someone for what I feel is a problem with poor administration support and fan support. I'm sure the players feel great going out on a November night to play some crap team in front of 500 fans on Tuesday because the Football team is on the road on Saturday.
You get what you put in, go look at teams who make the tournament every year and see what they spend. For what support Brownell gets, he does better then expected.
Clemson at one point this decade had the lowest spending in the ACC for basketball. Our Athletic department starts a softball team when we have a basketball team who gets a renovation once every decade and people wonder why they don't win. Softball at least is more profitable then baseball, it is constantly on ESPN and probably draws decent revenue.
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All-In [43979]
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Have you seen the latest conference rankings
Mar 2, 2020, 3:54 PM
[ in reply to Which exceeded mediocre expectations ] |
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for basketball expenditures?
I haven't, but the last ones I saw from a few years ago showed that we were next to last in basketball spending.
Don't you think it's a bit hypocritical for us to say that we have high standards for our coaches and players, but not our administration?
Based on our poor basketball history and our lack of administrative support, it should be clear that Brownell having us in the middle of the pack is an accomplishment.
I'm not advocating for lowering our standards, but as I've been saying for years, we can't just say we expect more in terms of wins and NCAA appearances and not be dedicated to spending more on basketball.
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Legend [19567]
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Yet he currently has better facilities and more
Mar 2, 2020, 9:37 PM
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staff by a large margin than any coach in Clemson history. That's a recent development. But if he could do as much as you say with dog food, he should be able to do more with bologna.
We'll never spend as much as the blue bloods on basketball, just like they wont on football. But he has more to work with than anyone we've ever had
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Starter [384]
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Re: thats wrong, his buyout is only $425k
Mar 2, 2020, 10:57 AM
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Bingo. You hit the bell. The reason BB hasn't been hired in the past is his buyout is similar to the universities... And he has been linked to multiple job openings in the offseason in the past. A team might be willing to pay $425k or 1m for his services, but he is not worth paying 4 million to buy out.
There are some stupid athletic departments out there, I'm sure someone called him after 2017.
Message was edited by: Clemsontiger179812®
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Legend [19567]
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What jobs has he been linked to?
Mar 2, 2020, 3:22 PM
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Ball St.?
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110%er [5430]
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All-TigerNet [11385]
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Re: thats wrong, his buyout is only $425k
Mar 2, 2020, 11:42 AM
[ in reply to thats wrong, his buyout is only $425k ] |
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That is before the sweet sixteen season where his contract was renogated for 4 years. People were curious what the new buyout was and there is your answer on my link. 4 years at $4 million if he is let go. It drops $1 million each year I assume. We aren't buying him out unless it gets down to the last year at just $1 million IMO.
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All-TigerNet [10798]
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Re: Brad Brownell Future
Mar 2, 2020, 9:37 AM
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Opinions on T-Net will probably all change again after this road game at VT.
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CU Medallion [55269]
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Re: Brad Brownell Future
Mar 2, 2020, 10:19 AM
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I think that is called normal, normal human emotions that comes after a win or after a loss!!! I'm OK with normal!!!
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Orange Blooded [2287]
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Re: Brad Brownell Future
Mar 2, 2020, 9:39 AM
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Let's not sell ourselves short, let's go ahead say we don't lose another game this year. What kind of extension do you think Brownell would receive? We can't start thinking about this too early!
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Starter [384]
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Re: Brad Brownell Future
Mar 2, 2020, 10:03 AM
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I clearly said it would likely need to happen if we make the NIT again. Teams convince themselves all the time a coach can do better elsewhere. I would be VERY surprised if we don't even beat GT at home. Comparing winning 5-6 in a row to winning the NCAAT is foolish, some believe 18-14 might be enough depending on what side of the bed the committee wakes up on. It's not as if 18 win teams have never made it, my question is if beating 3 top 5 teams doesn't waive the 20 win line that is consistently thrown, what does?
The NCAAT committee does take into account hot finishes, Clemson has finished better then most of the country. 17-14 would never happen, I'd say there is a chance 18-14 Clemson could make it, if FSU,UL, and Duke are all top 16 seeds, it's pretty easy to convince someone that Clemson is more then capable of playing in the NCAAT. I personally think Clemson could lose to VT and still get in at 18-15. That would give Clemson FOUR wins in the top ten, if they keep us out then I will lose interest in this sport. If we we're UNC, they'd be talking about winning the next 3 and they're in.
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Orange Blooded [2287]
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Re: Brad Brownell Future
Mar 2, 2020, 10:18 AM
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While hot finish and big wins would be in our favor, I just think our terrible out of conference record would be too much to overcome without 19 wins. I don't even think 19 would be a definite, but it would put us in the conversation. I'm sure there will be a few teams with less than 20 wins in the tournament.
I will be pleasantly surprised if we do actually get to 19 wins before the NIT though.
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Starter [384]
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Re: Brad Brownell Future
Mar 2, 2020, 10:26 AM
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19 with 4 top 10 wins will be enough. Don't forget Duke, FSU, UL, and Virginia will have the top 4 seeds, so you'd have to have another marquee win to win 19. It's in our best interest to finish seed 6-8, we don't want Virginia. We struggle vs them and a win vs the other 3 holds more weight as Virginia has 7 losses.
If we can get UL or FSU again, that is our best chance. Wins away from home hold more weight then at home, beating one of those three teams on a neutral site would be a HUGE boost in Net. We are in the low 70s/high 60s now in net. I'm assuming winning 4 in a row and beating a top 10 team away from home would have us at 25-45 somewhere in there assuming teams between us and those spots now and then will lose. The final stretch of the season would include a top 6 win over FSU and another top 10 win in the ACCT in a single winning streak to go from 14-13 to 19-14, Clemson would be in.
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Legend [19567]
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Brad has been here 10 years and at no time
Mar 2, 2020, 10:28 AM
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has anyone been beating down the doors to get him. You're setting us up with Tommy Bowden 2.0 with your thinking. You think the coots are happy they cant get out of Muschamp's contract. Hopefully our current AD is smarter than that
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All-In [43979]
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How do you know that no one else has wanted him?
Mar 2, 2020, 4:11 PM
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Many schools show an interest in a coach and it never becomes public.
By your logic, no one has been interested in having Dabo as their coach since we hired him, since no media reports surfaced. Do you really believe that no other schools contacted Dabo's agent since he became our coach and started winning some games?
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Legend [16900]
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Re: How do you know that no one else has wanted him?
Mar 2, 2020, 7:29 PM
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False equivalency is false.
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All-In [43979]
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Keep believing that he stinks and no one else would possibly want him.
Mar 2, 2020, 9:19 PM
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If you don’t think Brownell would be an attractive option for a lot of schools, then you don’t understand the business or how respected he is in the industry.
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Legend [19567]
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Because everyone knows Dabo isnt leaving
Mar 2, 2020, 9:43 PM
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for anywhere but Bama, and that isnt happening either. He has everything here. According to you, Brad isnt even close to having everything he needs. Why would he not be mentioned for other jobs?
The only rumor I ever recall about him was a completely inane one about Ball St having interest in him, and he'd never leave Clemson for Ball St
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Commissioner [963]
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Re: Because everyone knows Dabo isnt leaving
Mar 6, 2020, 8:46 AM
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Multiple outlets, Sports Illustrated included, reported Michigan being interested in Brad when Beilein left for the Cavaliers...but let's not let facts get in the way of the preferred narrative.
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Legend [16900]
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Re: Keep believing that he stinks and no one else would possibly want him.
Mar 3, 2020, 1:28 PM
[ in reply to Keep believing that he stinks and no one else would possibly want him. ] |
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Dabo will retire as one of the 10 greatest college football coaches of all time. Brad Brownell was the 3rd best coach in the Horizon League when we hired him and has done nothing to distinguish himself. That some of the 347 D1 basketball programs might hire Brad Brownell does not change the fact that your post was a false equivalency.
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110%er [5430]
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Re: Brad has been here 10 years and at no time
Mar 2, 2020, 9:46 PM
[ in reply to Brad has been here 10 years and at no time ] |
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Great post. They were beating the doors down to get Barnes. Don’t give the crap and rumors. Clemson did nothing to keep him
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CU Medallion [58323]
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Last year was a big disappointment.
Mar 2, 2020, 10:30 AM
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Don't try to pretend on any level that an early exit from the NIT was a success with that team. Look, the sweet 16 was huge in 2017-18, and Brownell deserves credit for that, but that was his FIRST NCAA appearance in 8 years. That's the first time in 8 years that his team was considered one of the 64 best teams in the country. So, yes, he's had a couple of good years lately, and has earned another year. But while the general direction of the program appears to be upward, the entirety of his tenure at Clemson has not been impressive by any means, and in fact, has been disappointing. So yes, give him another year, but making the NCAA tournament next year should be expected, and not making it should be viewed as a failure. None of this "well, we didn't make the tourney, but we're young and should only be better next year" crap. At some point that has to end.
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Commissioner [982]
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Re: Last year was a big disappointment.
Mar 2, 2020, 10:40 AM
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Next year bust.There comes a time when u have to move on.
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Starter [384]
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Re: Last year was a big disappointment.
Mar 2, 2020, 10:52 AM
[ in reply to Last year was a big disappointment. ] |
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An early exit is a 1st round loss. Is winning back to back 20 games at a university who other then one string of 3 seasons had little to no success this century a good thing? Yes.
Oliver Purnell played a style of basketball that wore teams out, it didn't work that well in the ACC. That's why when Clemson would beat big teams, they would win by 15-25 under OP. He also abandoned us the 1st offer he got, so it's obvious what he thought of the program.
Brownell took OP's leftovers and went to the NCAAT. Most of that team left and Brownell was left with freshman in 2012, and Freshman and Sophomores in 2013.
I never understood how a coach can be judged before he has a chance to get his own players in... Then his players start making NBA decisions; poor talent evaluator sending 2 and 3* players to the NBA draft. KJ and JB are not big stars, but journey around and don't have to go to Europe.
Honestly the place to be is the B1G, you can have a losing record atm and still have a chance to get in at 17-14.
Personally I think it's a joke there are all these teams from conferences that don't have a snowballs chance to actually win the tournament and do nothing but run crazy schemes to upset talented teams. You're telling me Clemson isn't better then the 16,15,14 seeds? If you're not the best, you shouldn't get to dance. I don't have a problem with Big east, Sun belt etc... But do we seriously need all these automatic qualifiers from sister of the poor? There are seriously teams that make the tournament by beating a team that GT would destroy in a high school gymnasium.
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CU Medallion [58323]
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Re: Last year was a big disappointment.
Mar 2, 2020, 11:47 AM
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An early exit is a 1st round loss.
We lost in the 2nd round of a 5 round tournament. We lost at home to an unranked, lower seeded team. This was in a year where the NCAA Tournament was very much on the table for us. A disappointment in every way.
Oliver Purnell played a style of basketball that wore teams out, it didn't work that well in the ACC. That's why when Clemson would beat big teams, they would win by 15-25 under OP. He also abandoned us the 1st offer he got, so it's obvious what he thought of the program.
I fully agree that OP was a one-trick pony that hit a wall in the first round of the NCAA Tournament. He maxed out. Realizing that, he left for a better offer. I am not defending any of that; just stating the facts of where our program was when Brownell took over; it was a consistent NCAA team that finished 3rd to 5th in the ACC.
Brownell took OP's leftovers and went to the NCAAT. Most of that team left and Brownell was left with freshman in 2012, and Freshman and Sophomores in 2013. I never understood how a coach can be judged before he has a chance to get his own players in.
Let's say Brownell had to completely start over in year one. In his 5th, 6th, and 7th years, having had time to get all of his own players in place, and fully implement his system, he finished 9th, 7th, and 12th in conference.
Then his players start making NBA decisions; poor talent evaluator sending 2 and 3* players to the NBA draft. KJ and JB are not big stars, but journey around and don't have to go to Europe.
This one has become a joke, and it's a good one: "KJ McDaniels left a year early, and it destroyed any chance we had of being good. It set us back for years, and we still haven't recovered. No team can be expected to recover from a good player leaving".
Personally I think it's a joke there are all these teams from conferences that don't have a snowballs chance to actually win the tournament and do nothing but run crazy schemes to upset talented teams. You're telling me Clemson isn't better then the 16,15,14 seeds? If you're not the best, you shouldn't get to dance. I don't have a problem with Big east, Sun belt etc... But do we seriously need all these automatic qualifiers from sister of the poor? There are seriously teams that make the tournament by beating a team that GT would destroy in a high school gymnasium.
There are 32 automatic qualifiers, and 36 at-large teams. We should expect to at least be considered one of the 68 most deserving teams most years. That we are consitently not speaks volumes.
Bottom line, all of these add up to a pile of excuses. I don't expect us to ever be a traditional power like UNC, Dook, Kentucky, etc.. There is no reason, however, that we can't be better than we have been, and low expectations and making excuses won't get us there. And again, I am not anti-Brownell. I think he's a good coach and a great guy who "gets" Clemson. I hope he is truly turning things around and gets it done. I just think it's absurd to deny the reality of his record and explain it away with one excuse after another.
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CU Guru [1746]
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We are not making the NCAAT...
Mar 2, 2020, 10:34 AM
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our road is essentially winning this week and making the ACC title game and hoping that other bubble teams fizzle out and no spoilers win their conference tourney. The ACC is weak this year and 4 teams is max unless NCSU makes a run this week...and they will most certainly lose at Cameron Indoor.
Brownell keeps our head above water and can beat some good teams but this team is essentially par for the course with him. Doesn't matter who is on the court...we are inconsistent and are stuck in the same position nearly every year.
BB isn't a bad coach, but he's not great either. If you want to blame Littlejohn for his first 6 years here then he cannot have credit for going to the tourney his first year either. Thats all OP's doing...heck BB nearly wrecked it that year (better thank television and tourney expansion for that one). he has made one tourney in 10 years with his own teams.
Im not saying fire him, but he doesn't deserve an extension unless its just for optics and give him another 2 years but no more money (or tie it to bonuses). Also, I do not see anyone coming after him unless he gets a sweetheart deal like OP did with DePaul.
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All-TigerNet [10824]
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Re: Brad Brownell Future
Mar 2, 2020, 10:36 AM
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The main problem I see with this bball team is that they are great at home, but sucky on the road. Get them out of Littlejohn and they stink. Beating Vatech in Blacksburg will be difficult. And then they will struggle in any neutral site ACC tourney games. It has always been this way. The team is not bad, but unfortunately has a Superman/Clark Kent complex.
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Legend [19567]
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That's not uncommon for a young team.
Mar 2, 2020, 10:38 AM
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Our best team ever in 79-80 was unbeatable at home and mediocre on the road
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Starter [384]
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Re: That's not uncommon for a young team.
Mar 2, 2020, 10:44 AM
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Many kids who played High school have not flown much. I fly once every other month usually and it takes awhile to get used to. When you're playing a game on Saturday (BC) Probably stay the night fly home Sunday, Class on Monday, maybe early Tuesday unless they skipped to bus down to Atlanta. It is not unfeasible why a group of young students playing their first year as College starters could lose. I said time and time again the WF loss was on the first big exam day.
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110%er [5430]
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Re: That's not uncommon for a young team.
Mar 2, 2020, 10:02 PM
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You can stop now. That is the dumbest thing I’ve ever read on tnet and that’s saying a lot. I guess the football team freshman were born on jets
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All-In [43979]
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Almost all basketball teams are inconsistent.
Mar 2, 2020, 4:14 PM
[ in reply to Re: Brad Brownell Future ] |
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Throughout a season, virtually all college basketball teams will have bad games and lose games they shouldn't.
Look at the ACC this year. The top teams have all lost games to teams they were expected to beat. It's the nature of basketball, coupled with a long season.
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Legend [16900]
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Re: Almost all basketball teams are inconsistent.
Mar 2, 2020, 7:23 PM
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Compare our Q2 and Q3 results against the Top 30, which is where Brownell’s salary slots him. This continued assertion simply isn’t true. We’re 5-10 against Q1 & Q2 yet have 3 wins against top 10 Q1 teams. It is incredibly atypical no matter how many times you blindly claim otherwise.
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Orange Blooded [4035]
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No I would not extend (yet). - 10 years thus far.
Mar 2, 2020, 11:28 AM
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IMO - He can come back next year - at this point - that is what he has earned.
I really wonder who BB is.
Is he the stoic, reserved, not engaging coach of the past 8 years? Or, is he the one that is now spirited and shows emotion?
Why has it taken 10 years to get here? Surely the arena is not what held us back.
Finding lightning in a bottle does not mean that he deserves an extension. He has yet to show us he can recruit. Before everyone starts listing off the "star" players for next year - let's wait and see how well they play. Give me a bunch of 2 stars who can play and be developed rather than some of the underperforming 4-5 stars out there. (see UNC).
I have also yet to see BB recruit a real post player. Sims is wonderful, but way out of position. If anything - Sims should be upset being a 5 - when he should be a 3 or 4 and be developing. Clearly stunting his growth into NBA possibilities.
I like what i am seeing these days. Competitive, bit exciting. But which BB is going to show up over the long haul? Before you extend - that needs to be figured out. And certainly by more knowledgeable people than me. All I know is that most years under BB - we have not progressed from when he took over.
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Legend [16900]
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Re: Brad Brownell Future
Mar 2, 2020, 1:34 PM
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There is zero chance he is fired and nearly zero chance he is extended. The only chance of an extension is if it reduces the buyout like his previous one. He was given a proper extension for making the Sweet 16 and we haven’t been back to the NCAA since and aren’t going to make it this year. The only chance we have of a coaching change is if Brad leaves. And if someone wants him we should welcome the change.
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Legend [19567]
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No power 5 school is coming after him
Mar 2, 2020, 3:28 PM
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not something to even consider.
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Legend [16900]
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Re: No power 5 school is coming after him
Mar 2, 2020, 7:27 PM
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Oh, I know no P5 school is, nor at any point in his tenure was, looking at Brownell. But maybe some high mid-major thinks he is exactly what they need and would offer a nice long term contract and reset his career. This is no less magical thinking than people thinking a coach is finally gonna start showIng his true colors in season 11.
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All-In [43979]
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How do you know that?
Mar 2, 2020, 9:25 PM
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Just because you didn’t see a media outlet report interest in Brownell? LOL.
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Legend [19567]
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In 10 years, even a false rumor would have
Mar 2, 2020, 9:48 PM
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popped up somewhere. Dabo was being pumped for aTm when Jimbo got the job. I dont know if there was ever any contact, but the media sure broached it. He's mentioned with Bama all the time. There's never been even any of that with Brad. In 10 years
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Commissioner [963]
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Commissioner [963]
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All-In [43979]
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The NCAAs are still a long shot this year.
Mar 2, 2020, 4:10 PM
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The fact that we are even in the conversation at this point is a testament to the great job our coaches and players have done this year. If our fans are honest with themselves, our competitiveness and several marquee wins this year should not have been expected given our injuries and youth.
Brownell should have a contract that runs at least four years from now, and that is necessary for recruiting purposes. I do not feel that he should get a raise at this point, unless we make the NCAAs and win at least a game. Then I think it would be worth considering.
I'm not concerned about losing him, simply because I know he loves Clemson and he wants to be here. We have taken care of him appropriately from a financial perspective. We (finally) gave him good facilities and allowed him to add to his staff in important ways. In short, I think he feels supported by the administration, as any Clemson coach deserves to.
I'll be interested to see how this year plays out. I have no doubt that we are playing like an NCAA Tournament team the last month or so, but our resume includes the whole season and that's how we will be judged. I am still hopeful that we can get into the NCAAs this year, but will still consider the NIT a success based on our challenges this year.
Thanks for your post!
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110%er [5430]
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Re: The NCAAs are still a long shot this year.
Mar 2, 2020, 10:07 PM
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Why wouldn’t he love Clemson ????
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