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Oculus Spirit [93615]
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The citizenship question on the census seems simple.
Jul 11, 2019, 3:52 PM
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Some people want to included illegal aliens in government by counting them without differentiation from citizens to give states which have many illegals a greater number of representatives in congress.
Other's want them included in the head count but don't believe it's right to allow the number of representatives of those state to increase because of the number of illegals in the state.
It's a little confusing because Texas and Florida are full of illegals and I'm not sure California and NY will benefit most from including illegals for rep counts. Some federal funds should be awarded to state which have illegals but only if they cooperate with the federal enforcement to regulations and laws.
I believe illegals who are here uninvited should not have any bearing on how we run the country, none, zilch! No citizenship, no representatives in congress. I wouldn't expect any more or less from any country I entered without permission. Imo, it's like 'why buy the cow when you can drink the milk?'
Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®
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All-TigerNet [11145]
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Bad census data due to lack of participation makes it
Jul 11, 2019, 4:00 PM
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easier to gerrymander districts. The motivations of this administration are ridiculously transparent and harmful to the country. Creating a whiter America through the census is the ONLY goal here because whiter America leads to more elected Republicans.
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Oculus Spirit [93615]
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It also skews the number of representatives in the house.
Jul 11, 2019, 10:11 PM
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Imo, it's six of one, half a dozen of the other. Dems want more power, pubs want to refuse them of that power. It kinda fits into the, no wall, open borders and decriminalizing illegal crossings. It's a chitty trick to offer free healthcare for illegals knowing that they will inflate the number of people in a given state to get more representatives in the house.
I doubt the constitution provided for or intended such nonsense.
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CU Guru [1041]
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: Bad census data due to lack of participation makes it
Jul 14, 2019, 10:41 PM
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Uh... It's in writing that that's why they did it. So the country would seem whiter and fewer House seats would go to states with lots of brown people.
Do you guys ever experiment with reality just to see what it's like?
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Legend [18007]
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All-In [26968]
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Good on the President. I mean, if there are other ways
Jul 11, 2019, 5:08 PM
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To learn about the citizenship status of the population, without compromising the accuracy of the census, definitely go for it. Seems like a logical decision to me.
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Oculus Spirit [93615]
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Yeah, the dems who challenged the question being...
Jul 11, 2019, 6:04 PM
[ in reply to Looks like it won't matter too much longer... ] |
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put on the census pooed the scrooch. Trump just announced there is much more accurate information available among the various federal bureaus and much more accurate. Those bureaus include Homeland Security, Health department and any other Trump thinks has information on how many illegals are in the US.
I known for a while that Trump planned to run on illegal border crossing in 2020 but just today I realized that if the numbers turn out higher than the 10-12 million many people say Trump has the trump card. Imo, Americans will brit a schick when they read about 35+ million illegals here.
I believe dems should have let this go instead of making a big deal of this.
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Legend [18007]
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Your ability to spin anything to Trump's favor is impressive***
Jul 11, 2019, 6:40 PM
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Oculus Spirit [93615]
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You didn't see or hear the speech and announcement...
Jul 11, 2019, 9:05 PM
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did you?
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Legend [18007]
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Instead of redistricting and budgets w/census...
Jul 11, 2019, 10:27 PM
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he'll get information to use in political ads and on twitter which people will dismiss because everything Trump says is a lie and people already have firm beliefs when it comes to immigration?
Yep, sounds like another "win" for Trump.
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All-TigerNet [10134]
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Re: Instead of redistricting and budgets w/census...
Jul 12, 2019, 6:37 AM
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he'll get information to use in political ads and on twitter which people will dismiss because everything Trump says is a lie and people already have firm beliefs when it comes to immigration?
Yep, sounds like another "win" for Trump.
The number of undocumented was widely known during the Obama administration. Why would Trump just start lying about the numbers of undocumented entering the country if the same information was confirmed I’m the Obama administration? If you don’t think illegals are swarming in at alarming rates you must not get out of your house much.
Message was edited by: Touch_The_Rock79
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Oculus Spirit [93615]
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Your rage is blinding you.
Jul 12, 2019, 8:43 AM
[ in reply to Instead of redistricting and budgets w/census... ] |
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"Two-thirds of voters approve of a citizenship question on the 2020 census, and that includes a majority of Hispanic voters — despite claims by Democratic lawmakers that the inquiry would discourage participation in Latino communities.
A Harvard University Center for American Political Studies/Harris poll found that 67% of all registered U.S. voters say the census should ask the citizenship question when the time comes. That includes 88% of Republicans, 63% of independents and 52% of Democrats.
Most notably, the poll found that 55% of Hispanic voters favor the idea.
Also in agreement: 74% of rural voters, 59% of black voters, 58% of urban voters and 47% of voters who backed Hillary Clinton in 2016. At 44%, liberal voters were the least likely to favor the citizenship question.
At the other end of the scale, 92% of Trump voters and 90% of conservatives back the question."
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/jul/9/55-of-hispanic-voters-approve-citizenship-question/
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Legend [18007]
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Neat. Still doesn't change that it's not going to be added
Jul 12, 2019, 2:06 PM
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and as much as you try to spin this, it's a "loss" for Trump and the stated goal of the GOP to use the census to go after budget/redistricting aiming at hispanic voters.
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Oculus Spirit [93615]
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You made that up, didn't you?
Jul 12, 2019, 4:17 PM
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55% of hispanics want the question on the census. That's the Harvard poll results from late June.
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Legend [18007]
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Again, neat. Which part do you think I made up?
Jul 12, 2019, 5:38 PM
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That the question won't be on the census?
"On Thursday afternoon, the president said that continued litigation over the matter would interfere with completing the census forms on time — so he was throwing in the towel. “It’s deeply regrettable,” Trump said."
That the question was stated intent to use the question to go after disenfranchising or causing a disadvantage to Hispanic population?
"Thomas Hofeller, a Republican operative and redistricting expert who died last year, “played a crucial role in the Trump administration’s decision to add a citizenship question to the 2020 census,” as the New York Times reported. (The evidence was discovered by his daughter, on hard drives in his home.)
The evidence includes an unpublished study by Hofeller saying a census citizenship question would be needed to get data that could then “be advantageous to Republicans and Non-Hispanic Whites” in redistricting. Additionally, there’s a paragraph in his files that’s identical to the Commerce Department’s language in a draft of their letter about adding the question to the census.
“Plaintiffs’ new evidence potentially connects the dots between a discriminatory purpose — diluting Hispanics’ political power — and Secretary Ross’s decision,” Hazel wrote on June 24. “As more puzzle pieces are placed on the mat, a disturbing picture of the decisionmakers’ motives takes shape.”
As a result, Hazel said, he’d reopen discovery on the matter, and he’s scheduled an evidentiary hearing to assess it in early September."
https://www.vox.com/2019/7/11/20689015/census-citizenship-question-trump-executive-order
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Oculus Spirit [93615]
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Horsechit.
Jul 13, 2019, 11:36 AM
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Anyone who think pubs are doing something that dems haven't thought of is denying the reality of politics. Your position is that it's wrong for republicans to redistrict but you never complain about the dem redistricting gurus.
Of course this is about politics, I'm not denying it, I'm just pointing out that people who are here illegally shouldn't have a representative in congress.
Did you suddenly get some moral conviction that redistricting is wrong and can I therefor expect you to defend any future changes attempted by democrats with the same fervor you exhibit toward republicans?
What happens when one of these racial dems who advocates for open border, taxpayer funded healthcare and all rights of citizenship wins the whitehouse? When will you be and just how much of your money do you want to spend each week to pay for these 'freebies and human rights?'
Your giving up ration for politics.
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Legend [18007]
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That is NOT my position and you know that.
Jul 13, 2019, 8:48 PM
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I don't think redistricting is wrong, but using the census (voterID too) to disenfranchise minorities or anyone else is wrong. If you want to keep arguing against that position, be my guest.
If the dems have done something similar then they are wrong too. But, in this argument, it's the republicans who are the ones doing it so that's who should get called out.
It's that simple.
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Oculus Spirit [93615]
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Does showing an ID to get on a commercial airline...
Jul 13, 2019, 9:33 PM
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disenfranchise minorities? How about showing an ID at the bank or the DMV or anyplace else where the gov or anyone else wants one to prove who they are? Do minorities cry about this? What is the difference?
Blacks and other minorities have bank accounts, driver license and apply for a variety of government services all of which require identification. In fact, they make parents get SS cards for children for whom they seek social benefits.
It's a little late to say ID request are racist. Usually, bring race into a discussion is an admission that one is at the end of the rope and barely hanging on to a knot they've tied in it.
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Legend [18007]
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Standout [345]
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Re: Yeah, the dems who challenged the question being...
Jul 12, 2019, 7:42 AM
[ in reply to Yeah, the dems who challenged the question being... ] |
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Trump may well twist this to get his base excited but his objective was lost. This was done to gain power in the house without having to win more votes and now that is much less likely. Getting more "accurate" data elsewhere isn't going to do anything. Yes, like everything he will somehow relate it to the marauding, ###### hordes of illegals, even though the census data would not have helped in any way to track or reduce them.
Honestly, I am surprised most people still fall for this illegal shtick. I hate to break it to people but the dirty little secret is that almost no one in government wants to fix the illegals problem. If they did, they would have come down like a ton of bricks on businesses hiring them but strangely that has just never really happened. They barely enforce the existing laws but want to spend a ton of money we don't have on a wall that will stop little in the long run?
Instead, take those ICE agents and send them to drag business owners who hire illegals off to jail and impose some nasty fines. See how quickly the number of illegals drop in an amazingly short time. That will eliminate a chunk of those that come here. Once it settles down you can reexamine the remaining flow of people across the border and tailor a response to address the specifics of why they are coming. Throw in a smarter, revised work visa program, naturalize the dreamers and modernize the citizenship process and this whole mess can be sorted out in a relatively short time.
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Oculus Spirit [93615]
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Look, it's pretty obvious that dems want a few more...
Jul 12, 2019, 8:57 AM
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liberal reps in the house of representatives. It's clear illegals won't participate in a census if it ask about citizenship. Trump didn't dream this up, it's obvious to anyone with two brain cells.
It's also clear that Trump and republicans don't want more liberals in congress. It's not rocket science it's common sense.
It's not illegal to ask and it's not illegal to ignore the question. If it had been illegal then America would have been violating out constitution when most of the previous census were taken. I do not believe we just realized we've been unconstitutional in counting heads.
I plainly stated I did not want illegals to be represented in congress. Imo, that's akin to having a representative for the people of Great Britain, France or Italy. No vote, no voice. That's how I see it.
In fact, I don't think you like the idea either but since it gives your party a bit more power by giving them another seat or two in the house of reps you'll go along with it. Imo, you and your party lack American blood in your veins to stoop to using illegals to seize power. You guys have no limits, if you can't control it, you'll destroy it.
Your idea of open borders and free healthcare for illegals is gone too far and the legislative process is being corrupted by the pure number of illegals you need to replace the working class voters who deserted your party because of your economic foolishness.
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Standout [345]
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Re: Look, it's pretty obvious that dems want a few more...
Jul 12, 2019, 10:57 AM
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In the past, the citizenship question did not have the same detrimental effect on participation rates so was not a big issue. Adding it now for the sole purpose of making the count inaccurate is gross and expressly against the intent of the founding fathers and constitution. They wanted non-citizens counted and used to appropriate house seats. If you want to argue it should change that is of course a discussion that should be had but, as it stands now, the accuracy of the census is the most important thing in order for it to accomplish its job. Purposely trying to make it less accurate should not be tolerated.
In terms of actual illegals, of course we need to reduce the numbers, there are just better ways than what has been suggested. Reducing those numbers will in turn reduce the spending on healthcare, schooling, etc. Basically, let's fix the issue not the symptoms.
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Oculus Spirit [93615]
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Re: Look, it's pretty obvious that dems want a few more...
Jul 12, 2019, 4:10 PM
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"In the past, the citizenship question did not have the same detrimental effect on participation rates so was not a big issue."
The gov made injuns and blacks citizens so they could vote. That suggest that at one time they may not have been represented in government being that they had no vote, until they did.
I do not want illegals to have any benefits. I want them to go home. They haven't assimilated and won't assimilate which means they will never seek citizenship. The simple thing to fix this is enforce the fines to employers who hire them, cut off their freebies including school, medicare and anything and everything else.
There is no passive solution to this problem. Reagan granted 20 million amnesty in the late 1980 as his part of a deal to fix illegal immigration. Dems screwed him royally. Nothing American can do will deter these people except to sour the milk.
Your party is doing all it can to defend them and turn the milk into butter which will encourage every person on earth who is now living in third world countries. Billions upon billions will come unless your party is stopped. You want them to be represented on government. That's like allowing me to live in your house and sleep with your wife, imo.
What you are doing is going to strap your kids with an unbearable burden. Obama ran on fixing it, then at the end of his term he ###### America right up the poot shoot by changing amnesty laws. The idiot probably though he was screwing Trump and he doesn't care about America.
There are 1,000,000 deportation orders for illegals who have gone through the courts exhausting all hope of remaining here. Your party is telling them how to avoid being deported.
What the flock are you doing? Arguing with someone who points out the flaws in your reason by pointing to the very people you'd put in office by remaining silent and/or supporting them?
Joe Biden was up to his neck in Obama's administration, do you honestly think he's going to go against his party in illegal immigration reforms?
Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®
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Oculus Spirit [83017]
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Won’t the hundreds of thousands illegals who would
Jul 12, 2019, 6:45 AM
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answer the question untruthfully skew that result?
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Oculus Spirit [93615]
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Imo, that's the least of the two evils.
Jul 12, 2019, 9:09 AM
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This isn't a either or type issue. It's a dammed if you do, dammed if you don't. If we ask then yes, the numbers will be perverted. If we don't then liberal state will be adding seats to the house of representatives.
I'm sure you wouldn't mind if conservatives added a few, would you?
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Oculus Spirit [97677]
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That's what I used to say about bathrooms.
Jul 12, 2019, 8:12 AM
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??
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Legend [15492]
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Re: The citizenship question on the census seems simple.
Jul 12, 2019, 1:55 PM
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The citizenship question on the census was attempted in order to benefit 'Republicans and non-Hispanic whites." It took the Supreme Court to stop them.
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Oculus Spirit [93615]
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It was to prevent the added reps to the house due to...
Jul 12, 2019, 4:15 PM
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the increased number of illegals crossing the border. 100,000 in June which is a hot month that traditionally discourages travel across the desert.
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Legend [15492]
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Re: It was to prevent the added reps to the house due to...
Jul 14, 2019, 1:04 PM
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The vast majority of illegal aliens in this country are people who over stayed their visas. Border crossings are the act of very desperate poor people. They are not the enemy but we have to do something to stop them. Throwing them in detention and separating children from their parents is cruel and ineffective.
Futher, the reason for and the only reason this Administration has pushed for the Citizenship question is that it benefits republicans and non-hispanic whites. There is no other argument, it is a political endeavor not a policy one.
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All-TigerNet [10134]
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Re: The citizenship question on the census seems simple.
Jul 13, 2019, 5:46 AM
[ in reply to Re: The citizenship question on the census seems simple. ] |
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Regardless of whether or not it benefits the republicans or democrats, it doesn’t matter if I’m a tax paying citizen, white, black, Hispanic or illegal, it is unlawful and I could be fined for not answering the full consensus form by skipping questions or answering untruthfully.
Now if I’m a tax paying citizen and are required by law to answer the full form honestly and completely, illegals should not only be held to the same standard, but forced to answer the questions truthfully.
The problem is, illegals won’t answer it truthfully and the libs / dims will still advocate for the rights of those who have not bought them as I have by paying taxes for government benefits and by paying “extra” for healthcare premiums.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: The citizenship question on the census seems simple.
Jul 14, 2019, 10:19 AM
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It seems simple because you're simple.
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