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All-In [44032]
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Are private schools commonly using their academic endowments
Jun 9, 2019, 9:04 PM
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to get around the baseball scholarship limit? I keep reading how big of a problem this is, but I would love to know how many baseball "scholarships" teams like Vanderbilt are giving for baseball players.
Is Vandy really a huge baseball school with a rabid fan base for baseball, to the point that alums and donors would be okay with endowments intended for academic situations essentially going toward baseball scholarships? If so, that's obviously their right, but I wouldn't be okay with Clemson doing this.
Clemson is an academic institution first, and I would be super annoyed if we were basically diverting academic scholarships just to get another few baseball players to campus. Baseball is fun and all, but come on. There are plenty of baseball programs with endowments much smaller than Clemson's doing a good job on the baseball field. I can't imagine that this is limiting us as much as some suggest it is.
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CU Guru [1241]
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Re: Are private schools commonly using their academic endowments
Jun 9, 2019, 9:15 PM
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schools like vandy and uva have so much endowment $$$ that there is simply more to go around. the competition for those $$ is not so keen. if you get admitted to those schools, you are almost certainly guaranteed to qualify for some type of academic aid. at schools like CU, with less endowment $$, you have to have tremendous board scores and high school GPA to receive academic help. in a way, its supply and demand. for argument sake, let's say vandy and CU have basically the same size student body (i have no clue) and that Vandy has 5X more endowment $$ available. there is simply a bigger pool of $$ for the school to work with , more students get $$, including athletes.
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1st Rounder [625]
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Re: Are private schools commonly using their academic endowments
Jun 9, 2019, 9:48 PM
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Vandy's endowment is $6.4B vs. Clemson's $742m, so it's even more than 5x. Vandy's enrollment is also right about half of Clemson's. So yeah, basically, there's just a TON more money to go around for everyone at Vandy.
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110%er [5977]
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Yes, and Clemson’s massive tuition increases over the last
Jun 9, 2019, 9:44 PM
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15 years has put it at a big disadvantage when recruiting players out of Georgia and North Carolina. The amount of money a player has to come out pocket with to go to Clemson verses staying in their home state is enormous and has played a role in the decline of Clemson baseball.
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Orange Blooded [4086]
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Re: Yes, and Clemson’s massive tuition increases over the last
Jun 10, 2019, 8:56 AM
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UNC's and NC State's anticipated cost of attendance is $24k for in state residences.
I just checked and Clemson's is $34k for in state residences.
That is crazy.
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Orange Blooded [2663]
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Re: Yes, and Clemson’s massive tuition increases over the last
Jun 10, 2019, 9:04 AM
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thank our legislature for that. part of big tax cuts is reduction in services, and support of students financially is a service. Now, we support education through gambling.
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CU Guru [1697]
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Re: Yes, and Clemson’s massive tuition increases over the last
Jun 10, 2019, 10:46 AM
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massive tuition increases with no increase of the Life (up to $5K per YEAR) or Hope (up to $2.8K per YEAR) scholarships from their inception nearly twenty years ago... and even less than that goes back into K-12 education, which is where it is really needed...
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Varsity [217]
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Re: Are private schools commonly using their academic endowments
Jun 9, 2019, 9:54 PM
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It is not a level playing field at all.
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Recruit [79]
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Re: Are private schools commonly using their academic endowments
Jun 9, 2019, 10:12 PM
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explain ole miss, miss st,louisville, tex tech etc those are state schoolsi would assume without huge endowments
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All-TigerNet [10822]
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it has nothing to do with the endowment..***
Jun 10, 2019, 1:43 AM
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Legend [18407]
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Re: Are private schools commonly using their academic endowments
Jun 9, 2019, 10:20 PM
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All the above but Vandy is a tough school to get into. You have to have 1430-1550 to even get a look at Vandy. I believe Clemson’s acceptance rate is roughly 47% and Vandy is 11%. So yeah, not a lot of students getting in to vandy each year so tons of $$$ to go around.
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CU Guru [1059]
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Re: Are private schools commonly using their academic endowments
Jun 10, 2019, 1:24 AM
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I suspect the 1400+ SAT doesn't always apply to athletes...
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All-TigerNet [12864]
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Re: Are private schools commonly using their academic endowments
Jun 9, 2019, 10:34 PM
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Since no one has even hinted at it, I'm assuming this is not a NCAA violation? I thought they were concerned with a level playing field.
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Legend [16902]
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Re: Are private schools commonly using their academic endowments
Jun 9, 2019, 11:17 PM
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It’s ridiculous how widespread this misunderstanding of financial aid is becoming. Many schools including Duke, Vanderbilt, Stanford, all of the Ivy League and many others offer generous financial assistance based on financial need. Financial need specifics can be defined any way the school wants but is based on the FAFSA application. On average, families making less than $60/yr pay nothing to attend these schools. Then the amount of aid is phased out from $60k to $150k in annual income. FAFSA also looks at net worth and several years of income so you can’t “game the system.” This money is available to any and all enrolled students at these institutions. It has nothing, whatsoever, to do with sports. You cannot offer anyone money from any ancillary source to play a sport - that is a scholarship and would be a clear violation of NCAA rules. Frankly, this is crybaby bs that was started on message boards by LSU, Arkansas, and sCar fans to soothe their egos over Vanderbilt’s intrusion in their little club.
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All-TigerNet [10822]
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you keep bringing up people's FAFSA apps but do the private
Jun 10, 2019, 1:45 AM
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schools have to follow the same rules as state schools?
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Legend [16902]
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Re: you keep bringing up people's FAFSA apps but do the private
Jun 10, 2019, 9:45 AM
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Duke and Vanderbilt use FAFSA to determine financial aid. All schools that want it’s students to have access to student loans must use FAFSA - so basically all schools use it. Schools can set up their own parameters for what constitutes financial aid so have no reason to use a different system than FAFSA for collecting a student’s financial info. Could a school, public or private, ignore FAFSA and create their own system for purposes of internally awarded financial aid? Maybe, I don’t know. But that’s real tinfoil hat territory. And If at any point what you are attesting to isn’t true then you are committing prosecutable fraud - whether it is a private school or not. Are we really trying to equate Tim Corbin with the Southern Cal Rowing Coach?
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Legend [16186]
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Re: Are private schools commonly using their academic endowments
Jun 10, 2019, 7:37 AM
[ in reply to Re: Are private schools commonly using their academic endowments ] |
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Like anything else related to the NCAA, it depends. There is a rule which clearly says that if a student receives institutional aid for academics, he or she 'counts' toward the counter limits. That makes it appear that since Clemson is limited to 85 football scholarships, a student on a full academic ride will COUNT and Clemson then can have only 84 other counters. See the link below.
http://www.diycollegerankings.com/can-college-athletes-receive-athletic-academic-scholarships/6267/
On the other hand NCAA Compliance rules say that if the academic aid is awarded with out regard to athletic ability, the aid does not count.
https://dailycomplianceitem.wordpress.com/2013/03/25/daily-compliance-item-32513-15-5-1-15-5-1-1-institutional-aid/
I think that to use this compliance 'out' to beef up the baseball team, a school like Vandy would have to cheat. If the baseball program scouts the player, invites the player to visit and so forth, it would violate the rules to give him an academic scholarship to get around the rules. I think the degree to which the athletic department was involved in the recruitment of the student to the school would determine whether the aid makes him or her a counter or not.
If Vandy did cheat, the NCAA might get mad and put Coastal Carolina on probation.
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Legend [16902]
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Re: Are private schools commonly using their academic endowments
Jun 10, 2019, 10:00 AM
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It also depends how objective the award is. South Carolina both have lots of merit awards that are strictly based on SAT/ACT scores combined with class rank %, valedictorian awards, National Merit, and Presidential Scholar awards. These would all be available to scholarship athletes. But the higher end merit scholarships that require interviews, essays, and recommendations would generally not be available to athletes. But, these are a very limited pool of scholarships that even at South Carolina and Clemson are going to kids with almost perfect SAT scores.
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Orange Blooded [4086]
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Re: Are private schools commonly using their academic endowments
Jun 10, 2019, 9:03 AM
[ in reply to Re: Are private schools commonly using their academic endowments ] |
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The lookback period is something like two years.
You can game the system by buying a really expensive house with all of your savings.
Other people have started businesses (no current income but growth potential) or taken jobs with a reduced salary but with building equity or other benefits that don't count as income.
I have some foreign friends who have no savings in the US because they invest all their money in their home country.
There is a pretty decent calculator on Yale's website that will let you enter your income, savings, etc and they will tell you how much you can afford to pay (i.e. how much you have to pay before financial aid kicks in).
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Legend [16902]
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Re: Are private schools commonly using their academic endowments
Jun 10, 2019, 9:30 AM
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Like any system, you can game it if you try hard enough but it usually blurs the line into cheating. As someone who has multiple children in college now and is semi-retired I looked at a number of angles and none would be legal. Even if I have all my assets off-shore I would still be committing fraud when I signed the disclosure statement. It wants to know everything. A parent willing to commit fraud to obtain financing isn’t exactly limited to these school. And this was supposed to be relevant to Vanderbilt and Duke recruiting.
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110%er [6223]
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Re: Are private schools commonly using their academic endowments
Jun 10, 2019, 10:44 AM
[ in reply to Re: Are private schools commonly using their academic endowments ] |
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+ 1 However, at most schools you only get a portion of what FAFSA says you qualify for. Depending on resources available to the school it could be very low, perhaps a few K. In reality the FAFSA is mostly used to see how much you can barrow, not how much scholarship money you will get.
At places like Vandy and Wake, the difficult part is getting in. They give every student the full amount calculated by the FAFSA. That can make going to Wake cheaper than attending SC State.
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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Pay attention to viztiz, he's on it. Also, understand...
Jun 10, 2019, 9:53 AM
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the principle Endowments, the gift, are not to be touched, the interest income, sometimes residual, are what are being used. Those incomes[of the principle gift] are most always specifically earmarked. The endowment is a lifetime gift and the why the principle is not to be touched, the gift remains in perpetuity.
Yes, Private schools use endowments designed for such to offer financial aid to those that qualify. Yes, just like Clemson endowments/gifts offer scholastic grants in donor names, Private institutions do as well.
Washington and Lee's annual interest/residual fund is about 75,000,000 and growing, when Endowments investments are larger, the interest/residual income is as well - it's just maff.
Again, gift driven by the donor, almost always specific in use.
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110%er [6223]
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Re: Are private schools commonly using their academic endowments
Jun 10, 2019, 10:29 AM
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I know some Div III private schools do. In Div III there are zero athletic scholarships. As you can imagine recruiting is rather difficult, however well endowed private schools have figured out how to get around it. They can target athletes with specialized scholarships.
They aren't based on HS transcripts that are concrete, they are abstract criteria. For example, essays, community service, and HS transcripts. They have enough to spread around to athletes and non-athletes alike. How can the ncaa come in and say, this essay wasn't good enough for this student athlete to get a scholarship. Based on track record ncaa officials must not be able to read anyway.
If they want to, any school can game the system.
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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The NFL draft must be full of Division III players?
Jun 10, 2019, 10:47 AM
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NBA, MLB as well?
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CU Guru [1697]
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Public and Private institutions use endowments, grants
Jun 10, 2019, 10:33 AM
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and other scholarships that they can offer to ANY prospective student, and this will not exclude athletes. If an athlete qualifies for any of these monetary sources, they should be awarded the gift because they will have done the work to earn it. The athlete will have to to compete against all other students for the available funds in the award, and they will not be given favoritism in the screening process.
Vandy is a very proud academic institution and won't compromise any academic standing in pursuit of athletics, but that doesn't mean that they won't explore every available option in pursuit of athletics... no more so than ANY other institution, including Clemson...
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