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Topic: About that fumble
Replies: 28   Last Post: Sep 10, 2018 1:23 PM by: willy1505®
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About that fumble

[7]
Posted: Sep 9, 2018 11:04 PM
 

I am a Clemson fan who wanted the Tigers to win. So, yes, I am biased. But I also find it disheartening to hear that the other team got jobbed. I neither want to win nor lose on a call.

That being said, it seems clear to me, based on the NCAA rules, that the officials got the K'von Wallace forced fumble right. I refer to 2016 AND 2017 RULES AND INTERPRETATIONS (Updated July 19, 2017) in stating my case below. (Website for publication is http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/FR17updated.pdf. If there is a more recent version that supersedes any of the rulings cited herein, please enlighten me.)

First, someone in some thread has suggested the pylon is out of bounds, even showing a photograph of a pylon well outside the end zone. Let's put that falsehood to rest right now. According to Section 31, Article 3b.: "The goal line and goal line pylons are in the end zone."

My second point is based on the pylon camera angle being the best angle for making the call. This seems patently obvious, but I suppose some will disagree. Nonetheless, if you accept that this angle is the best angle, then I would think you, as a reasonable person, would likewise see that the ball, when dislodged, sails directly over the pylon. If you accept these two points, then consider this from the above cited publication:

SECTION 2. Out of Bounds
Loose Ball Out of Bounds
ARTICLE 3. b. A ball that touches a pylon is out of bounds behind the goal line.
c. If a live ball not in player possession crosses a boundary line and then is
declared out of bounds, it is out of bounds at the crossing point.

And Approved Ruling 8-6-1, which elaborates on the above, although the "boundary line" provision must be applied, since the ball crossed over the pylon and did not actually strike it. My interpretation is that since the ball passed through the vertical plane directly above the pylon, the ruling is the same as if it hit the pylon:

Approved Ruling 8-6-1
Team A’s fumble strikes the pylon at the intersection of Team B’s goal line and sideline. RULING: Touchback. Team B’s ball at the 20-yard line (Rules 7-2-4-c and 4-2-3-b).

I was at the game, and the big board showed a camera angle from behind the runner that seemed to make an even stronger case for the officials' initial call, but I have yet to see that one replayed. I would still favor the pylon for the clearest view. All other angles require some guesswork.


Several people I talked to who

[6]
Posted: Sep 9, 2018 11:07 PM
 

watched the pylon view swear the ball was directly over it ... so a touchback by rule.

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Plus, the Aggie Fans didn’t seem to boo the call half as much as..

[1]
Posted: Sep 9, 2018 11:15 PM
 

JimBO..which makes me think they saw the projectory of the ball over the pylon.

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Re: About that fumble


Posted: Sep 10, 2018 2:25 AM
 

https://mobile.twitter.com/YahooSportsCFB/status/1038613643393462272/photo/1

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Can't tell anything there. It all depends on the height of the ball


Posted: Sep 10, 2018 6:48 AM
 

If that video showed where the ball landed you could draw a line back to where it was fumbled, but I haven't seen that shot yet.


Re: Can't tell anything there. It all depends on the height of the ball


Posted: Sep 10, 2018 7:40 AM
 

Look where the body of the of the offensive
player landed and clearly the ball travelled to the left of him.
I feel enough conclusion here that it is not
A touchback. Nevertheless, they don’t deserve to
Win and they were holding #90 all day.
Plus if they scored on that play, it will have changed
Our offensive plays and we may have scored a
Touch down instead of just running the ball.
It seemed we scored when we had too.all game..:

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"Clemson Is Coming" says Stephone Anthony (Class 2011)"
"Why NOT Clemson"
"Why Not Dabo"


Re: Can't tell anything there. It all depends on the height of the ball


Posted: Sep 10, 2018 7:43 AM
 

Check my post below. They show it better. Both show it going more inside than outside the pylon.


this is the best view I have seen (besides pylon cam)


Posted: Sep 10, 2018 10:32 AM
 

if the spinning ball would have touched the pylon (and its plane going infinite towards the sky) , it was the correct ruling. It's just impossible for any person to know for sure, and remain that way.

Anybody who states "clearly" (either way) is lying to himself, and everyone else.

https://twitter.com/AlexGold/status/1038620040784953344

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Re: Can't tell anything there. It all depends on the height of the ball


Posted: Sep 10, 2018 12:08 PM
 

I know who has. The Ref standing there that watched it and made the call. His eyes didn’t video it but he saw it and said it was a touch back. Anyone got a video to refute it? Nope....


Re: About that fumble


Posted: Sep 10, 2018 7:25 AM
 

Parallax. You cannot determine from the video you present.

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Re: About that fumble

[1]
Posted: Sep 10, 2018 7:38 AM
 

https://twitter.com/PylonCamQuigs/status/1038614202796187648?s=20

https://twitter.com/chris_hummer/status/1038613422684942336?s=20


Respectfully, Nick, that view is nowhere close...


Posted: Sep 10, 2018 7:48 AM
 

... to being as conclusive as the pylon cam view. There is simply too much guess work.


Re: About that fumble

[1]
Posted: Sep 10, 2018 9:45 AM
 

K'Von knocked the ball forward. It went right over the pylon. How can you not see that??


Re: About that fumble

[7]
Posted: Sep 10, 2018 2:33 AM
 

K'Von's hustle on that play made it happen .
Pylon Shmylon , that kid possibly saved the game right there .

Way to go #12 !!!


Message was edited by: Tigerdug23®


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DB23


And the awareness to go right to the ref and plead touchback***


Posted: Sep 10, 2018 11:13 AM
 



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Ref making that call

[2]
Posted: Sep 10, 2018 6:56 AM
 

That is a ballsy call to make. You have to think the ref who made that call felt pretty sure about it. The safe call is to say out at the one and the home team retains possession (unless you believe in conference referee conspiracies, which is not unreasonable).

The problems with depth perception on TV replays are going to prevent that call from being definitively refuted.


Re: About that fumble

[3]
Posted: Sep 10, 2018 8:01 AM
 

Dabo is right. Based on the pylon camera, there was not sufficient evidence to overturn the ruling on the field. However, if the call on the field had been that he fumbled out of bounds, there would not have been sufficient evidence to overturn the ruling on the field. It was a judgment call, as is the case with every "ruling" on the field. Its understandable that Jimbo was upset. Had Dabo been the coach against whom that ruling went, he, too, would have been livid. But it's football. Every play and every call provides fodder for frustration. It's a different kind of game. The ball is oddly shaped; it bounces funny most times. But as our illustrious coach says, "If you play this game long enough, the rulings even out." We should have put the game away in the first half. KB should never have bobbled the snap on 4th and goal at the one. The list is long of "coulda, shoulda, etc." Suffice it to say, champions find a way to win. Our Tigers won. At the end of the season, that's all that will matter. Go Tigers!

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Very well said***


Posted: Sep 10, 2018 10:34 AM
 



2019 white level member

I still hate that rule. I think it's a stupid rule


Posted: Sep 10, 2018 9:59 AM
 

but I think it was called correctly. Remember, if any part of the ball is past the goal line then it's a touchback. You can't spot the ball in the endzone.

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Re: About that fumble

[5]
Posted: Sep 10, 2018 10:27 AM
 

I'm an Aggie. I feel like I'm very objective in general but also, my fiance is a Tiger and I've grown to love Clemson (I never thought I'd root for another team). Wanted to preface all of that first...

As pissed as I was during the game I knew as soon as they said the initial ruling it was going to be hard to overturn. Then they showed the terrible angles in the stadium and that sealed it for me. Everyone around me was pissed, but you can't blame them. We had the #2 team on the ropes and that deflated everything. Seeing all the angles i've seen since then on TV/Twitter/Etc, i still don't think we know for sure.

Ultimately, with the time remaining and A&M having timeouts, the call didn't end up completely effecting the game which was kind of refreshing to get our shot at tying the game in the end.

I think the no call on Clemson's WR that shoved our CB that set up your last score was more of an issue that potentially effected the game. That a whole other thread ;)

You guys have a #### of a DL - we couldn't open any holes to run thru and the LBs did a good job of spying Mond to keep him in the pocket for the most part - not that he had much time to decide to run. CB may be an issue but there wasn't enough film of our passing game so hopefully that can be corrected.

Best of luck the rest of the way - great fans, great team, incredible school. I'll be cheering for you guys the rest of the way. We can all agree on one thing: Gamecocks and Longhorns suck.


Re: About that fumble - Go A&M - BEAT BAMA

[1]
Posted: Sep 10, 2018 10:30 AM
 

Great reply Chad

Go A&M beat BAMA will ya

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Re: About that fumble - Go A&M - BEAT BAMA


Posted: Sep 10, 2018 11:22 AM
 

It was a great game. We made a lot of miscues defensively, especially in the 2nd half. We probably could have spied Mond better. We were fortunate to win despite not playing our best, but hats off to A&M for showing up and playing one heck of a game.

2019 student level member

Re: About that fumble


Posted: Sep 10, 2018 12:09 PM
 

Excellent, first-class response, my brother. Something I have come to expect from your team and fans. Good luck moving forward.


Re: About that fumble


Posted: Sep 10, 2018 1:23 PM
 

Very classy response. Why don't you guys just win the SEC and arrange for a "rematch" in January? I'll be pulling for the Aggies the rest of the season. I think that'd make a great National Championship game! Go Tigers!

2019 white level member

The ball crossed directly over they pylon per the best view.

[1]
Posted: Sep 10, 2018 11:19 AM
 

Touchback.

2019 orange level member

Looks here

[1]
Posted: Sep 10, 2018 11:25 AM
 

dont try to find fault in the refs unless you are going to go back and watch every play and look at every player for bad calls.

games are Never won or lost on 1 play.


Re: About that fumble

[1]
Posted: Sep 10, 2018 11:44 AM
 

The problem is that 99% of the idiots posting on Twitter do not know the rule. If the pylon extended up 10' vertically and any portion of the ball touched it, it's a touchback, just like when a player holds out the ball and touches it for a touchdown. Plus the referee that called it was running right down the side line boundary.


Re: About that fumble


Posted: Sep 10, 2018 11:54 AM
 

Correct:
https://rulebook.github.io/en/interpretations/rules/8/

I. Team A’s fumble strikes the pylon at the intersection of Team B’s goal line and sideline. RULING: Touchback. Team B’s ball at the 20-yard line (Rules 7-2-4-c and 4-2-3-b). They will consider going over the pylon the same as striking the pylon. Only it's height in the air affects it not striking it.


Whatever the ruling had been, it wouldn't be overturned


Posted: Sep 10, 2018 12:16 PM
 

Just not enough evidence to change it. It could've gone either way.


Replies: 28  

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