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All-TigerNet [14090]
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Question for the S&C bashers…..
Apr 22, 2012, 11:24 PM
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Just a question about your knowledge of D1 college football S&C programs. Have any of you actually played D1 football or worked on a D1 football program S&C staff, or went to some kind of school for S&C specifically for football training?
Watching 3-5 minutes clips doesn't make you an expert on S&C or googling S&C coaching trees. And I know some of you will try bring up teams that pushed us around, but last season we pushed around Auburn, FSU, and VT twice. So maybe just maybe, there is another issue other than the S&C program.
My theory is that ever since TDP and Prez Barker have been around, there has been an apathetic attitude towards winning that has been going around our AD for about 12-15 years. This apathetic attitude has also infested the student body and a segment of the fan base. When you don't have a fear of losing or the urgency to win, you will get beat by teams that are less talented than you.
This is something Dabo has to turn around, and has made some progress in turning around by getting to the acc championship game twice and winning the acc once. Now we still have a ways to go in this category, but I think the apathetic attitude towards winning is more of the reason for being physically dominated by inferior opponents, than our S&C program.
Just an idea to throw out there and consider.
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Orange Blooded [2507]
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S&C might be a part of it but it's not the whole problem
Apr 22, 2012, 11:43 PM
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If it was the whole problem then we would have stood no chance against Auburn 2 years ago, where the OL was dominating all game, or against Auburn, FSU, VT, etc last year. I believe that our program could be better and move on to the key principals that most schools are using but in all honesty that can't be the whle reason for our collapses.
I too think it's a mentality thing. Price was matched up against tp NFL talent and he excelled under this very same S&C program. Thompson couldn't be blocked last year nad he has been under the program for years.
I think that we just haven't recruited the type of hogs that will impose their will on the defense for a long long time. I feel better about all the young talent that we have and look forward to seeing what Caldwell can do with it.
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Orange Blooded [2303]
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Re: Question for the S&C bashers…..
Apr 22, 2012, 11:53 PM
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Have watched our offensive line be soft since the mid-1990s. That's enough for me.
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Orange Blooded [2507]
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You don't think attitude has something to do with that?
Apr 22, 2012, 11:59 PM
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I think there are serious issues in the S&C program but am unwilling to say that all of ouor problems stim from that one place. Sports are 80-90% mental and 10-20% physical. It takes the "want to" factor to win at the LOS.
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All-TigerNet [14090]
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Orange Blooded [2303]
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Re: wasn't soft in 2000 or 2001, or 2003, or 2005 -2007, or 2009***
Apr 23, 2012, 7:41 AM
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SURE it was. When was the last time we could line up and get a yard when we need it without running some misdirection? Against a good team?
When is the last time we produced a good NFL offensive lineman?
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Orange Blooded [2507]
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Chris Hariston is starting for the Bills
Apr 23, 2012, 8:06 AM
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also, we were pretty darn good rushing the ball with CJ, Davis, Ellington in 09 and 10.
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Legend [15526]
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Re: Chris Hariston is starting for the Bills
Apr 23, 2012, 8:30 AM
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I believe, if you look back at the film of those games, most of our rushing yards were gained on mis-direction plays and cut back plays because there was no hole, and very talented RB's went away from where the play started to get the yards. I have watched the line very closely, and it has been our Achille's Heel from an offensive rushing output standpoint for a long time. You answered his question when you only could name 1 OL player to have made a starting roster, and that was because he went to a program with a good OL coach. JMO
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Orange Blooded [2507]
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I agree that there is a problem in the S&C
Apr 23, 2012, 8:42 AM
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I'm just not convinced that it's the ONLY problem that we have. I think mentally we need some hogs in the trenches. You can't teach that. You've got to recruit it.
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Legend [15526]
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Re: I agree that there is a problem in the S&C
Apr 23, 2012, 11:20 AM
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Dittos!
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Orange Blooded [2303]
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CU Medallion [67824]
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Orange Blooded [2303]
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Re: I believe Barry Richardson is still in the NFL for KC
Apr 24, 2012, 8:22 AM
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So Hairston and Richardson are going to be your go-to guys?
Really?
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Starter [361]
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bingo, it was a very soft line during all of those yrs
Apr 23, 2012, 8:15 AM
[ in reply to Re: wasn't soft in 2000 or 2001, or 2003, or 2005 -2007, or 2009*** ] |
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against FSU in 2000 w a threat like Woody and we have something like 4 1st downs the whole game. This goes to your pt of level of competition. When we played teams w good lines like BC and Miami in 05 and even more recently, a running play was basically a wasted play. Take away AE's 73 yarder ag Miami in 2010 and we avg like 1 yd per carry and we lost because of it.
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Asst Coach [702]
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Re: Question for the S&C bashers…..
Apr 23, 2012, 5:51 AM
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Completely agree. It's very frustrating hearing "experts" state the "facts" about our S and C program. I'm not saying you can't have an opinion, but make sure you're qualified to give it when you're talking about being an expert and what your saying is fact. Especially when you're talking to a bunch of people. I heard someone on hear complain saying they were talking crap about our strength and conditioning program on the forums at bodybuilding.com. That's absolutely hilarious to me. That shows me your lack of knowledge and where to find it on S and C. I'm with you. I don't see us recruiting hogs on the O line. We recruit big guys, but not really mean guys that have a body type that will flourish in college. There's a whole lot of different types of kids that are 6'7", 340 lbs. We've had some, and they've gone on to play later, but as a group, you can't expect to dominate unless you get more of them. I'm with you though. It's also a mindset.
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CU Medallion [55408]
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Re: Question for the S&C bashers…..
Apr 23, 2012, 7:03 AM
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We don't hear any of our coaches or student athletes complaining about our S&C program. If it was as bad as our fans believe that it is. You would surely think that at least ONE some body around our program would speak out....
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Rock Defender [53]
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Sigh...
Apr 24, 2012, 12:43 PM
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Have you been watching any games? I personally don't care what coaches or players say - when I see us unable to move 250 lb guys from Wofford off the line, and when NC State holds us to 34 yards rushing and sacks us 6 times, and when we're 97th in sacks allowed, and when USuC moves our LBs and d-line out of the way with ease, and when their defenders throw our blockers around with ease, hold us to 150 yards, sack us 5 times, and make us look like pansies...
....then something is wrong in the strength department. Period.
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Orange Blooded [4098]
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Re: Sigh...
Apr 24, 2012, 12:54 PM
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GREAT POST!!!!! U are absolutely correct on all of this!we will continue to get DOMINATED until our S & C program is improved with a NEW DIRECTOR!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Savant [470]
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Are all football coaches S&C experts?
Apr 24, 2012, 1:14 PM
[ in reply to Re: Question for the S&C bashers….. ] |
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If they are, why do we need Batson?
I would think that on a day-to-day basis coaches have bigger fish to fry (film study, game planning, practice, etc.). What goes on in S&C is secondary and I'm guessing more than a little bit mysterious in their minds. Do we really believe - and I don't mean to insult here - that Dabo can explain the ins and outs of our S&C philosophy or why Westside training is better than Hatch methodologies, etc.? His and other coaches' focus is on fundamentals and scheming, the latter of which we are often dependent upon due to our complete inability to physically dominate ANYONE.
Really, have Batson proteges ever dominated anyone? I can't remember the last time I watched a Clemson game and thought, "Boy, we're really mauling them at the LOS. It's men versus boys out there." It has to be over a decade ago or longer since I thought that. We out-finesse and out-athlete - that's how we win, and it's been that way forever.
I like Dabo - he's intelligent and savvy. He has made the right moves every step of the way during his tenure. I just wonder if he looks at the position of strength coach as he would that of waterboy or janitor - that is, it's a known entity with concrete do's and don't's with every practitioner cut from the same mold.
I don't think he feels this way - he can't, because he's too smart for that, and he sees what we see (I hope). The "tin-foil hat" part of my brain tells me that Batson is this year's fall guy if things go sideways...
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110%er [6851]
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Didn't play Division I and I didn't stay in a Holidy Inn
Apr 23, 2012, 6:46 AM
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Express, but did Div. II. We did similar things that was on the Dirtpecker vid. Of course I played when helmets were leather and we had no face masks  . We didn't have an airconditioned indoor practice facility either. We pulled sleds, had harnessed parachutes and did the hand to ground wheel gasser drills. I didn't see anything that different--just the reinvention of old stuff from my chair that every school out there is doing too. I am sure the Tigers are doing similar things--just packaged differently.
I was taught there are three components to S&C. One is pure weights (strength). One is working the body under higher stress (pushing sleds, wearing weighted vests, pulling harnessed parachutes)and doing agility drills (to maintane speed mobility as muscles develop). Last is conditioning (running the bleachers, sprints etc.). I am sure every player at Clemson is getting all of it and more. These coaches are not going to allow S& C be an issue when the D will be geared toward intensity and the O toward a fast pace marathon.
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Orange Blooded [4098]
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Re: Didn't play Division I and I didn't stay in a Holidy Inn
Apr 24, 2012, 1:33 PM
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won`t allow S & C to become a problem????????? it has been A HUGE PROBLEM for many years!!! where have U been?? I have watched Wake, Wofford, NCSU, Tech, c$$ts push us out of the way for YEARS!! it is pitiful and not improving!! GET REAL
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Aficionado [150]
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Orange Blooded [2191]
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Nope, and guess what? I am no 5* chef either
Apr 23, 2012, 8:03 AM
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and I know when food tastes like hen ####. OK, I'm not really a S&C basher, I haven't commented on it, but it does look like something is missing in our strength/toughness department.
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Oculus Spirit [83119]
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Only one team pushed us around upfront, USC.***
Apr 23, 2012, 9:34 PM
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Rock Defender [53]
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You forgot NC State and GT
Apr 23, 2012, 9:36 PM
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And Troy/Wofford in the first half.
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Orange Blooded [4098]
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Oculus Spirit [83119]
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I"m mainly talking upfront..State maybe because they
Apr 24, 2012, 9:28 AM
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killed our OL that day.
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Savant [470]
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So did Wofford - had 4 sacks against us.***
Apr 24, 2012, 11:45 AM
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All-TigerNet [10345]
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Re: Question for the S&C bashers…..
Apr 24, 2012, 12:33 AM
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No expert here and did not play D1 football. However I have many years experience watching both sides of our team getting pushed back by much inferior teams. Sometimes the solution is so simple it becomes way to complicated.
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All-In [44045]
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Blaming those losses on S&C is ridiculous...
Apr 24, 2012, 12:44 AM
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...but not as ridiculous as blaming those losses on the Clemson administration. Barker and TDP are easy targets for the simpletons on TigerNet, but when you step back it's obvious that they have supported Clemson athletics in very significant (and measurable) ways.
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All-Conference [437]
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S&C is a serious weakness of this program,,,we had a chance
Apr 24, 2012, 10:53 AM
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to fix it after the OB disaster and we didn't. I don't know what it's going to take for people to open their eyes and realize we need to make a change.
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Orange Blooded [4098]
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Re: S&C is a serious weakness of this program,,,we had a chance
Apr 24, 2012, 1:30 PM
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IMHO the FAILURE to correct this HUGE problem is/was almost as bad as the O/B disaster!! it is like Dabo and the admin don`t want to get this problem resolved!!
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All-TigerNet [14470]
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Re: Question for the S&C bashers…..
Apr 24, 2012, 1:00 PM
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you have just got to realize that a lot of the goobers on this site would complain if we lost to the steelers in the super bowl. they cant be happy unless they are complaining. batson has been at clemson for a long time. a lot longer than about 4 entire staff and their replacements. my guess is about 50 or more coaches have come and gone since batson was hired. seems like a few of those guys would have realized batson just could not get the job done during their time at clemson. and yet they are gone and he is here.
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All-Conference [437]
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I don't think your argument holds water because of one fact
Apr 24, 2012, 1:16 PM
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Weight training methods have changed a lot since guys like TB, TW, etc. left Clemson. The major criticism of Batson is his methods haven't kept up with the game. Looking at the S&C programs at other top tier programs, it's clear we're using outdated methods.
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Orange Blooded [4098]
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Re: I don't think your argument holds water because of one fact
Apr 24, 2012, 1:23 PM
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ABSOLUTELY GREAT POST!!!!! IMHO the improved methods that Batson refuses to use is the problem. Also,k I have not heard any talk from Dabo about this problem that is the 800 gorrrillla in our football programs lack of production against some teams.It is beyond my understanding how anyone could watch our games against Wake, Wofford, NCSU and the dirty c%%ts and not see the problem!!
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1st Rounder [641]
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Improved methods? It really comes down to-lift weights get
Apr 24, 2012, 1:50 PM
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stronger. You can't change physiology.
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Aficionado [150]
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Played D1 and get a kick out of the message board bashers...
Apr 24, 2012, 1:19 PM
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Bottom line is beat Scar, win ACC again, and win a bowl...and we will hear crickets on the S&C debate.
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All-Conference [437]
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No, we won't. The nagging shoulder injuries that never seem
Apr 24, 2012, 1:21 PM
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to go away, etc. aren't going to magically "disappear" because we win a BCS bowl. Nope, Batson needs to move on. He's had a great run here, but the game has passed him by.
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Aficionado [150]
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Hopefully, we can hire you...
Apr 24, 2012, 1:30 PM
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And the rest of the message board experts. Please, please be sure to promptly submit your resume whenever Batson's time is up.
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All-Conference [437]
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Re: Hopefully, we can hire you...
Apr 24, 2012, 1:35 PM
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No, I was actually hoping they hire someone like Jason Veltkamp (Arkansas). He'll be available. It's clear you know nothing about S&C. If you have something valuable to add, please do so.
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Aficionado [150]
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Waiting on you to enlighten us...
Apr 24, 2012, 1:41 PM
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Where have you coached S&C? What new methods did you use that so post-date Batson's? Are you present at Batson's workouts? Did you play college ball?
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All-Conference [437]
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Re: Waiting on you to enlighten us...OK Here it is,
Apr 24, 2012, 1:53 PM
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The question for you is, why are you such a fan of Batson? Friend of his, huh? And yeah, I know Craig Fitzgerald so I'm a little biased. These are the top guys at the moment, whether you like it or not:
Jsson Veltkamp, Arkansas
Scott Cochran, Alabama
Tommy Moffitt, LSU
Craig Fitzgerld, SCAR U
John Madden, Texas
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Aficionado [150]
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The "monster maker" at Bama is indeed one of the best
Apr 24, 2012, 1:58 PM
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Wish we had him. Not a friend of Batson, just think our pansy OL of late is as much an attitude problem than S&C. And, yes, some of the attitude does begin in the weight room.
I was an undersized OL in college, but when I consciously decided not to get blown off the ball on 3rd and 1 by a stronger DT, I wouldn't. Period. Hope to see some of that from our guys.
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Savant [470]
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As it stands, we wouldn't be able to beat SCAR.
Apr 24, 2012, 1:36 PM
[ in reply to Played D1 and get a kick out of the message board bashers... ] |
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We can beat WVU, as absurd as it feels to say that. The Venables hire can solve that schematically. And, WVU isn't a better conditioned team - finesse versus finesse.
We can beat GT for the same reason - new hire, fundamentals, scheming.
We can beat NCSU, obviously. They stink. Still a head-scratcher.
But, saying that it's possible to beat SCAR with that S&C differential is just illogical. Men versus boys.
I hope that people like me get on our players nerves and motivate them to prove us wrong, but I just don't see it.
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Virtuoso [648]
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I'm curious
Apr 24, 2012, 2:39 PM
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Who here has actually been to a workout and seen what we do? Have they then been able to go to another teams workout and compare it? There seems to be a lot of information floating around but nothing to back it up other than wins and losses or "we got pushed" and "we can't gain a yard". People like to dwell on the negatives, trust me, I know.
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All-TigerNet [14470]
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Re: I'm curious
Apr 24, 2012, 2:57 PM
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p;ease goof fill these goober in on ehat goes on in there.
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Aficionado [150]
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Crickets
Apr 24, 2012, 5:26 PM
[ in reply to I'm curious ] |
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nm
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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Goof! sup 54?
Apr 24, 2012, 5:55 PM
[ in reply to I'm curious ] |
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hope the world is treating you and yours well.
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110%er [5093]
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It doesn't take a collegiate S&C coach
Apr 24, 2012, 5:33 PM
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To see your player's form was pathetic.
I used to laugh at Clemson fans bashing Batson but if you don't have proper technique I have to question the overall methods.
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Legend [16136]
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So you used to laugh at them and now you agree with them?
Apr 24, 2012, 5:46 PM
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Sounds like you were wrong...again...
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