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Commissioner [994]
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Pre-game Prayer going away?
Oct 15, 2013, 1:58 PM
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Has anyone else noticed that the Pre-game Prayer has turned into sort of a speech that is full of nothingness?
I'm not a super religious guy, but I feel like this tradition is slipping away.
The only thing that has changed over the last year is the new AD, but that's just me thinking out loud.
These long drawn out speeches of pageantry, 'something in these hills', and other Clemson cliché is starting to boarder on the lines of mockery.
Like I said, I'm not super religious, but it's just something that i've noticed.
Thoughts?
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Orange Blooded [2429]
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Re: Pre-game Prayer going away?
Oct 15, 2013, 2:01 PM
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It's the thing to do in America now. If one atheist complains screw it up for the remainder of the folks.
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110%er [5156]
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Aren't they just trying to make it more inclusive?
Oct 15, 2013, 2:09 PM
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Clemson is a public university which has people from a ton of different faiths. What's wrong with trying to make everyone in attendance feel included?
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MVP [518]
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Yes they are, and there is something wrong with that.
Oct 15, 2013, 2:28 PM
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The prayer or invocation isn't intended to make people feel included or comfortable or whatever else people want to feel. That's not what that time is for.
It's about giving thanks to the One Giver of all good gifts, and praying for His protection for those involved in th game that day.
If we want a "feel included speech" maybe we should call it that. But don't ask people to bow and act reverent for some guy chatting with himself on a microphone. I don't knew how anybody felt included in that.
If it's a prayer, PRAY. If not, don't call it a prayer.
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110%er [5156]
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Hate to break it to you...
Oct 15, 2013, 2:30 PM
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but prayer is a part of nearly every religious community on earth. What you call prayer would not even be called prayer by certain demoninations of even your own faith. For instance many Orthodox Christians would not consider the "free style" silent prayer into your pillow at night as prayer.
You don't get to choose what is prayer and what isn't for all the fans in attendance.
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110%er [5156]
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Oh, and by the bye...
Oct 15, 2013, 2:32 PM
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it's a flippin' football game. This thread is a really good example of why, quite honestly, it'd probably be a good idea to just do a moment of silence anyway. It's supposed to be a time to watch stinkin' football, look at co-eds, and enjoy the university.
Instead a handful of zealots get pi$$y and self-righteous. Just enjoy the game.
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Commissioner [923]
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If you want to pray
Oct 15, 2013, 2:37 PM
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say it silently to yourself. Just like kids can do in school anytime they want.
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MVP [518]
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Don't have to hate
Oct 15, 2013, 2:39 PM
[ in reply to Hate to break it to you... ] |
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It's a good thing no orthodox brothers are hanging over my bed at night. But that's not what we are talking about.
You got quite a postmodern streak showing there. You see I am not trying to define it for others. I am appealing to a common understanding of what prayer is, and by the response on this board I think most agree that what we heard Saturday (and many other times) isn't prayer. Just because you have a mike and someone says "here is a prayer". Doesn't mean it is so.
Under no understanding of the word prayer could last weeks pep talk be considered a prayer. Just put Jeff Davis up there. He'll provide a model prayer for you.
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110%er [5156]
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Of course most agree on here...
Oct 15, 2013, 2:41 PM
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you're preaching to the choir. You live in the Southeast US.
The problem is huge chunks of our student body are not from here, are not Baptists or Methodists, but Jews, Muslims, Hindus, and everything in between.
You are comfortable with Jeff Davis providing a prayer because it's what you've known since you were a child.
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MVP [518]
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Re: Of course most agree on here...
Oct 15, 2013, 3:00 PM
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I know Jews, Muslims, etc. and I don't have a problem with them listening to our prayers.
Inclusiveness is lowest common denominator stuff. If I moved to Pakistan, I would not be offended in the least if they stopped to say a prayer to Allah before some event. Assuming they are "excluded" by a prayer to God in Clemson is asinine. They aren't babies.
If we all tiptoe around trying not to offend, the will be nothing worth saying.
But the simple fact remains. If you say we are gonna pray, then do that,, if not call it something else, and I'll run get a coke while your pep talking. Doing otherwise is like announcing the Alma Mater, and then playing The National Anthem.
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110%er [5156]
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"Our" prayers? Who is the "us?"
Oct 15, 2013, 3:06 PM
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Again, you project your own faith/feelings onto the masses as if it were agreeable by default.
Luckily, friend, we're not in Pakistan.
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Orange Blooded [2394]
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lol........everyone shut up while your prayer is going but
Oct 15, 2013, 3:11 PM
[ in reply to Re: Of course most agree on here... ] |
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you'll go grab a coke in protest if its anything else....lol. Good stuff.
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Virtuoso [610]
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Over 90% of the folks at our games are Christian and of the
Oct 16, 2013, 1:47 AM
[ in reply to Of course most agree on here... ] |
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other 10% almost all of them are Jewish. Jews don't get all bent by a Christian prayer.
Sorry, but this is America, public school or not, over 90% of the population is Christian or Jewish. Suddenly everything has to change as the liberals have taken over schools, courts, the media. The tiny minority is forcing the overwhelming majority to bend to its warped view of America and the world. They want guaranteed outcomes for people economically, a world where kids can't play because they might get hurt, and god forbid anyone have their precious sensibilities hurt. Sorry, but the Constitution doesn't guarantee retards not be insulted by others living their lives. If you libturds don't like it, leave. Stop ruining America for the 80 to 90% that think it was fine as it was.
The people so bent on ramming tolerance down everyone's throats are doing it by being intolerant to what 80 to 90% of the population wants. The tolerant left is the most racist and intolerant group in the country.
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Starter [374]
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Re: Over 90% of the folks at our games are Christian and of the
Oct 16, 2013, 9:01 AM
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I'm willing to bet 40% of the student section isn't religious
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All-In [29036]
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This is simply not true
Oct 15, 2013, 2:45 PM
[ in reply to Don't have to hate ] |
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"Under no understanding of the word prayer could last weeks pep talk be considered a prayer"
I've heard words just as vapid called prayer from many a stage/pulpit in churches.
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All-In [29036]
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I've been at many a church with that exact problem
Oct 15, 2013, 2:38 PM
[ in reply to Yes they are, and there is something wrong with that. ] |
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If we are calling it a prayer, then communicate with God, do not preach to the congregation in the guise of prayer.
But again, our prayers at football games are purely cultural and not religious at all.
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CU Guru [1056]
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Re: Yes they are, and there is something wrong with that.
Oct 15, 2013, 5:15 PM
[ in reply to Yes they are, and there is something wrong with that. ] |
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Thank you - well said. Thank you - will never forget Woody Dantzler being asked to pray at a university event - then being told he could not pray in Christ's name and he declined.
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Legend [19906]
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Times change..
Oct 15, 2013, 5:24 PM
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I will never forget Frank Howard being asked to coach the Clemson Tigers football team - then being told he could recruit black players too and he declined.
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Virtuoso [610]
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Not the same thing and not all change is good. And FYI most
Oct 16, 2013, 2:01 AM
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of the "change" going on in this country is from a small minority forcing their beliefs on the majority in the name of tolerance. Idiots on the left thinking America needs to change because of others coming here. Wrong, when others come here they need to adapt to America. That's what happened for 250 years and made America great. If they don't like it they should go back to where they came from. Oh yea, that's right, it sucked where they came from and they were oppressed. Look at France and the UK. Liberal thinking, BS multiculturalism & diversity have turned them from great to pathetic. And the same idiotic liberal thinking is ruining America.
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CU Guru [1898]
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All-In [28802]
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110%er [5156]
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Maybe we can agree on something.****
Oct 15, 2013, 2:34 PM
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110%er [5156]
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Although, just to play devil's advocate....
Oct 15, 2013, 2:50 PM
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what about the notion that the role of "invocation" before football games is used to solemnize the event and unite those in attendance? Or do you think that football Saturdays are the time and the place for "legitimate" (in the original poster's eyes) faith and demoninationally specific prayer?
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Orange Blooded [2394]
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It is a football game. There is no entity looking over
Oct 15, 2013, 3:09 PM
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anyone in the game or in the crowd. The uniting of everyone in attendance goes on outside the stadium and as they walk in. They unite at their seats, and if anything the THE HILL entrance, the most exciting 25 seconds in college football, is the uniting factor. It sure as heck is more exciting than a prayer.
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110%er [5156]
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You know I agree.
Oct 15, 2013, 3:13 PM
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I don't think a football game is something to "solemnize" anyway.
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Orange Blooded [2519]
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Breakdown:76,000 Baptists, 3000 methodists, 2800 Presbyteria
Oct 15, 2013, 3:09 PM
[ in reply to Aren't they just trying to make it more inclusive? ] |
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1200 catholics, 12 wiccans, 8 muslims, 7 Hindus, and 3 Episcopalians, and 2 Jews.
That about right?
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110%er [5156]
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You must not go to Clemson much...
Oct 15, 2013, 3:12 PM
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we have a significant Indian and Pakistani population.
Even if it WERE just one non-Christian at the university, Clemson is not a Christian school. It's a public, land-grant, state university.
If you want your "real prayer," go to church the day after the game. I swear, I don't understand folks, sometimes. Our nation is going to hell in a handbasket supposedly, and it's all because we don't pray the right way before we play a football game, or because we protect our students from religious bullying from teachers and administrators in public schools?
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Orange Blooded [2394]
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It is the simplest way for a very simple mindset to explain
Oct 15, 2013, 3:16 PM
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everything. We just aren't praying enough. Can you imagine how easy life is to go through if you 100% buy into that? It is like walking through life with blinders on.
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All-In [36207]
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Legend [19906]
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FYI "Paki" is a racial slur***
Oct 15, 2013, 4:14 PM
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Legend [19906]
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Virtuoso [610]
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What part of democracy do libturds not get? And by
Oct 16, 2013, 2:04 AM
[ in reply to You must not go to Clemson much... ] |
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significant, lol, exaggerate much? Less than 10% of the Clemson community is non-American.
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Legend [19590]
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That was gobily-gook on Saturday. Certainly not a prayer.
Oct 15, 2013, 2:10 PM
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Kinda' a priase all things speach.
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CU Medallion [61437]
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I am a faithful man ... and that was not ANYTHING
Oct 15, 2013, 2:14 PM
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resembling a prayer, in any religion or denomination, that was said Saturday.
Several of us in my area of DV were looking around at each other with shoulders shrugged.
That "invocation" was extremely irreverant and useless.
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Oculus Spirit [96791]
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Same here...we were all looking at each other like "umm
Oct 15, 2013, 2:17 PM
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what the heck is this".
I figured they asked the Catholic guy to pray since we were playing BC...but then he didn't even pray.
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CU Medallion [61437]
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Maybe he had communion with Spurrier before the
Oct 15, 2013, 2:28 PM
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game.
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CU Guru [1898]
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Starter [374]
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All-In [39020]
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I've never heard a better definition.
Oct 15, 2013, 2:10 PM
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"A speech full of nothingness."
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Orange Blooded [4658]
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Re: Pre-game Prayer going away?
Oct 15, 2013, 2:13 PM
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I totally agree. I was at the BC game and honestly couldn't figure out what they were doing. Whatever was read was certainly not a prayer. It was long, and totally meaningless.
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Scout Team [164]
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Saturday's "prayer" was more like a rambling sermon that
Oct 15, 2013, 2:19 PM
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was totally inappropriate for the moment. Too long, incoherent, and silly language. I think the pre-game prayer is a special part of the day; but, I figure that it is going to go by the wayside like all things considered politically incorrect.
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Oculus Spirit [78823]
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it was a little long
Oct 15, 2013, 2:27 PM
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but I think the priest was trying to be inclusive to everyone and point out the positives of the game and Clemson.
Can't wait for the Imam next week to come out with a super religious prayer. Should be fun.
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CU Medallion [61437]
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Or, Medicine Man
Oct 15, 2013, 2:35 PM
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All-In [29036]
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One of the results of "ecumenical" prayer
Oct 15, 2013, 2:33 PM
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(and in this case it actually goes beyond that, all the way to multi-faith invocation) is that usually it gets watered down to the point of not resembling what any single group would consider prayer.
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All-In [36207]
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My Prayer....Dear God Help The Godless-Heathen Who Don't
Oct 15, 2013, 4:11 PM
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want to thank and glorify you find the error of their ways and save their mortal souls. Amen
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Associate AD [812]
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Sat's "prayer" was horrible. I kept thinking, "this guys
Oct 15, 2013, 2:35 PM
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is eventually going to start praying", then it was over. Well, over after a very extended waste of my time. If they are going to have a prayer and they ask you to pray, then pray! Mention God, protecting the players and say Amen. Don't give me this crap about how great it is to "be in these hills" or whatever.
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110%er [5156]
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Might I ask what about a football game necessitates
Oct 15, 2013, 2:36 PM
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a prayer to begin with?
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All-In [29036]
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As a believer
Oct 15, 2013, 2:37 PM
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I actually 100% agree with ya on this one.
At this point it is nothing but a cultural instance, and not a religious one.
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CU Medallion [61437]
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110%er [5156]
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All of those can be done in more inclusive prayers, or even
Oct 15, 2013, 2:51 PM
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a moment of silence.
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CU Medallion [61437]
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You asked why have a prayer at a football game.
Oct 15, 2013, 6:25 PM
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I answered. And, you replied saying that those items could be included in inclusive prayers. Huh??
Circular reasoning ...
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Walk-On [113]
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Then why sing the National Anthem,
Oct 16, 2013, 6:20 AM
[ in reply to Might I ask what about a football game necessitates ] |
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Why say the Pledge of Allegiance?
Neither of those has anything to do with football either.
Maybe we should change some of the words of the Star Spangled Banner to be more "inclusive" or to talk more about football.
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All-In [32580]
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And it needs to INCLUDE bits to INCLUDE the other countries
Oct 16, 2013, 6:25 AM
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represented by our student population.
And why do the Alma Mater and all the other things we do that are part of the TRADITION and HISTORY of Clemson Football ?
Why even play the game itself . . . shouldn't we just play some sort of cricket / rugby combo ?
GOOD GRIEF . . . . snapshot of a small segment of what is turning this country into a big, huge mess . . . in my humble opinion.
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Orange Blooded [2293]
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Re: Pre-game Prayer going away?
Oct 15, 2013, 2:38 PM
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I think it sucks. United States of the Offended. At one point in time, it would take an army to remove a pre-football game prayer. Now its the opposite.
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Starter [374]
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Re: Pre-game Prayer going away?
Oct 15, 2013, 2:42 PM
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Why do we need one?
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All-In [30764]
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I agree. as the official spokes
Oct 15, 2013, 2:51 PM
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Person for the church of the Fonz...that was BS!
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Orange Blooded [2394]
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If you want to feel warm and fuzzy, then let's get it back
Oct 15, 2013, 2:54 PM
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to a real prayer, but in the end, if you actually believe it has any effect on the game or the safety of anyone, then you might as well have a prayer for the Easter Bunny, Santa, and the Lochness Monster, too.
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Legend [19197]
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God is real. The power of prayer is real. America was a
Oct 15, 2013, 3:33 PM
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Christian nation. Many have lost their way. Now many endorse the "church of nothing." They don't believe in God, don't pray, and some are now attacking those who still believe because what they believe has more conviction than what they don't believe.
That's why you have things like that "prayer." It is meant to bring believers and unbelievers together but it points more to the divide that cannot be bridged between faith and secularism.
Just telling it like it is in my own opinion.
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110%er [5156]
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In what sense was America a Christian nation?
Oct 15, 2013, 3:36 PM
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If you mean that most of our citizens have always been Christians, or that many of our founders (definitely not all) felt they were acting on Christian ideals, then yes.
But if you mean in an institutionalized, legal sense, then you're just mistaken.
"The government of the United States is in no sense founded on the Christian religion."
That's the treaty of Tripoli, the very first treaty we made as a sovereign nation. God isn't mentioned in the Constitution, and wasn't added to the pledge until much, much later. Wasn't added to the coinage and currency until the 1950's as a response to the "Godless" Soviets.
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Legend [19906]
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Re: In what sense was America a Christian nation?
Oct 15, 2013, 3:48 PM
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God isn't mentioned in the Constitution, and wasn't added to the pledge until much, much later. Wasn't added to the coinage and currency until the 1950's as a response to the "Godless" Soviets.
Indeed. Another example would be the insertion of "under god" into the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954. It wasn't written that way originally.
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Legend [19906]
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Fiddlesticks. Just noticed you actually mentioned the PoA
Oct 15, 2013, 3:50 PM
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in your comment. Go Tigers!
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Orange Blooded [2394]
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Whatever you say, bub. I don't have the time to get into
Oct 15, 2013, 3:37 PM
[ in reply to God is real. The power of prayer is real. America was a ] |
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Christian nation stuff....look at Greece. I don't believe they are worshipping Zeus over there anymore. Do the evolution. America is doing it to.
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Orange Blooded [4299]
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He said "Go Tigers" instead of "Amen"
Oct 15, 2013, 3:02 PM
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Everybody around me commented on how awkward it was
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CU Medallion [51870]
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We used to pray to thank God
Oct 15, 2013, 3:09 PM
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for the privilege of of just being there and for the safety of the players on both teams. Really, what is the point of having someone read a bunch of words that are devoid of spirit and meaning? If that is all that we can do, I would rather not have anything, and do not bow my head to such.
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Orange Blooded [2394]
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I agree. Just have nothing, but because both of them
Oct 15, 2013, 3:14 PM
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don't have any effect on the outcome of the game. If that was the case, Clemson would have been undefeated for the last 70 years, and no one would have ever got hurt, and I would have went home with several cheerleaders or coeds I saw walking around. See, prayer doesn't work.
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Orange Blooded [2218]
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Re: I agree. Just have nothing, but because both of them
Oct 15, 2013, 4:21 PM
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That's because of your philosophical presuppositions. You're arguing deductively, not inductively. You've already ruled out a Creator/Higher Intelligence. Of course prayer wouldn't work if there is no Creator/Higher Intelligence.
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Legend [19906]
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Even if you assume that there is a god/creator/whatever
Oct 15, 2013, 4:38 PM
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out there, that doesn't necessarily validate the efficacy of prayer. Who's to say anyone's listening when you pray, or even cares?
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Orange Blooded [2218]
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Re: Even if you assume that there is a god/creator/whatever
Oct 15, 2013, 4:44 PM
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1. Because the Universe is so finely tuned to support human life, it seems like the Creator/Higher Intelligence cares about us.
2. Because of the ten million people around the world that has claimed to receive answer to prayers. (I can point you to scholarly books if you so wish)
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Legend [19906]
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Re: Even if you assume that there is a god/creator/whatever
Oct 15, 2013, 4:55 PM
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1. Hard to argue against this because it's not really an argument; you're just stating how you feel.
2. Given a large enough sample size, I could find a group of people who would be willing to claim just about anything. That hardly makes it true.
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Legend [19906]
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Re: Even if you assume that there is a god/creator/whatever
Oct 15, 2013, 5:02 PM
[ in reply to Re: Even if you assume that there is a god/creator/whatever ] |
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It's just a matter of time before extraterrestrial life is found. Heck, we may find it on Mars, which would suggest life is actually pretty common in the universe. The majority of evidence supports it.
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Starter [374]
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Joined: 10/16/11
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Starter [374]
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Posts: 344
Joined: 10/16/11
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Re: Even if you assume that there is a god/creator/whatever
Oct 16, 2013, 9:22 AM
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thinking prayer works can be explained by the following
product of group think
mis-attribution of causation
fear of exclusion or delusion on massive scale
confirmation bias
all these are certainly more reasonable/believeable than an all powerful being granting wishes
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CU Medallion [51870]
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I'm assuming you are not addressing me
Oct 16, 2013, 2:34 AM
[ in reply to Re: I agree. Just have nothing, but because both of them ] |
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Real, sincere prayers are certainly heard by God. He might not always answer them in the way we would like, but if we pray in faith, believing He hears.
I believe in God, but don't believe in honoring empty words, said as prayers, by bowing my head. To me it is worse than not having a prayer at all.
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Orange Blooded [3257]
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All my prayers are to God Almighty and His son Jesus Christ.
Oct 15, 2013, 3:23 PM
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Anything other than that is of little use. Maybe that is not politically correct, but it is the TRUTH and the TRUTH will set you free!
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110%er [5156]
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That is fantastic that you feel that way.
Oct 15, 2013, 3:26 PM
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Unfortunately your personal prayers are sort of irrelevant to what should be done before more than 80,000 people at a state school. Not sure why this is hard to understand.
I sometimes pray to Kate Upton whilst giving myself a "stranger" but I don't want everyone at the game to do it.
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Orange Blooded [3257]
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Please read John 14:6.
Oct 15, 2013, 6:32 PM
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I admit I am not tolerant, but I do love everyone.
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CU Medallion [61437]
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Lest you be accused of exclusivity, might I add
Oct 16, 2013, 6:06 AM
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John 3:16 and Acts 4:12 to the verses to be read? John 3:16 is inclusive of EVERYONE who believes in Jesus as the Christ and Savior. In my opinion, John 14:6, John 3:16, and Acts 4:12 go hand-in-hand-in-hand. Two verses clearly show that Jesus is the only way to God the Father while the other shows that ANYONE who believe in Jesus can have access to God and can be saved from eternal separation from God.
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CU Medallion [58367]
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I am all for the pre-game prayer, as long as it is done
Oct 15, 2013, 3:23 PM
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the way I think it should be done, to the God I worship, using language I feel is appropriate, and in a style that is consistent with my particular religion, denomination, and church.
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Orange Blooded [2394]
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Exactly, Smiling Tiger....all inclusive...you get it...and
Oct 15, 2013, 3:27 PM
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if people don't like it, 85 RUNS BOTH DIRECTIONS!!!
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Orange Blooded [3788]
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Joined: 11/2/08
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BC game prayer was weird
Oct 15, 2013, 3:53 PM
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but the Jewish ministry guy did a pretty good one a couple of games ago, I think it just depends on who the pray-er is.
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Orange Blooded [3908]
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Hasn't changed in last 25 years I've been going.***
Oct 15, 2013, 4:45 PM
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Rookie [19]
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Re: Pre-game Prayer going away?***
Oct 15, 2013, 5:01 PM
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Rookie [19]
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Re: Pre-game Prayer going away?
Oct 15, 2013, 5:02 PM
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The little girl with the sign on the jumbotron was the prayer, not the pre-game one. Awesome
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Legend [19906]
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I assumed she was thanking her oncologist.***
Oct 15, 2013, 5:10 PM
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All-In [32580]
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Figures.***
Oct 16, 2013, 6:30 AM
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All-In [27366]
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There hasn't been a pregame prayer in years.
Oct 15, 2013, 5:13 PM
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Just humanistic hubris.
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All-In [35206]
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Good.
Oct 15, 2013, 6:36 PM
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Hate me now but I'm not a fan of the prayer. It's become a speech from folks who already love to hear themselves talk. I'm just not into. And I don't like it when a bible is forced down my throat; not that it's necessarily the case here.
I was shocked by how many were appalled when I went with an outdoor wedding idea and not the traditional inside a church route. I mean shame on us for doing what WE wanted. It was supposed to be OUR day, right.
Anyhow, I realize not everyone is a Christian or a God person so why do we do it? To give thanks to a spirit not everyone believes in? Trust me, I'm sure we're all thankful for each day, our health, and so on. But its a football game! Drinking, swearing, and battle. Yea... do everything with class blah blah, we do. But can't we have just one thing where God is left out? No? Didn't think so.... Pledge of Allegiance, cash, and pretty much everything else. So why not football, right. Sounds appropriate.
Not in my opinion. Go ahead, bash me now for my opinion and the way I feel. Shame on me.
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Rock Defender [66]
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TigerBry
Oct 15, 2013, 11:51 PM
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I respectfully disagree.
It puts things in perspective. They let the universalists do a prayer so it's not a Christian thing anyway.
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CU Guru [1327]
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Freedom of religion
Oct 16, 2013, 3:11 AM
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It is what our nation was founded upon. One man's prayer may not be kosher  to another, but he has a God-given right to pray it.
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CU Guru [1497]
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Yes that prayer was a mess.
Oct 16, 2013, 9:54 AM
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They need to decide what type of prayer they want to have and then do a separate welcome speech for the fans.
BTW, an invocation is a prayer that "invokes" or calls the spirit of God to come in and is basically saying that you welcome the presence of God into the place. It is separate from a prayer of thanksgiving or a prayer requesting something. These days most preachers don't know the difference though.
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