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YOUR BALANCE
Populism and reductive politics
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Populism and reductive politics


Oct 14, 2019, 1:28 PM

(I actually wrote this out to clarify this in my own head. I figured somebody else might get something out of it.)

I always remind myself, on the darkest days, that there is always a life cycle to populism...and it's been with us a long time. As far back as Julius Caesar and as recently as Hitler, the world has been besieged by populist leaders bringing their brand of malevolent stupid to the world. And they always fail in the end.

Populists are easy to spot. They're the ones being reductive. "Reductive" tactics are highly negative ones, and almost invariably employed against superior opponents. It's basically win-at-all-costs by eliminating their best player or their best tactic...by fair means or by foul. In soccer, for instance, if there's a player you can't handle because of his speed or moves, you hack him every time he gets near the ball. In football, if there's a receiver you can't handle, you hold him. If it's a QB, you hit him late and drive him into the ground. And you cheap-shot him, talk at him, try to hurt him when the ref isn't looking.

Obviously, your best friend if your opponent is pulling that kind of crap is the ref. A strong ref will shut dirty play down instantly, just ejection and the cheater gets beat far worse. But if you catch a weak ref - or, God help you, a bent one - and all of a sudden reducers can be highly effective...in the short term.

Over the long term, of course, it never works. Because if everybody played like that there would simply be no game to play because eventually no one would participate, much less watch.

Populists are the political version of that. They are purely reductive. They are by definition wholly negative in nature. If you look close, populists are never for anything - they have no higher purpose, no higher calling, no moral center, and certainly nothing resembling an actual plan. They are instead defined by what they're against...what they hate. They aren't getting you to vote for them so much as they're just obliterating their opponent. They want their adherents saying their opponents' names with anger in their hearts.

Here's a good description of how to employ populism:
"Never to admit a fault or wrong; never to accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time; blame that enemy for everything that goes wrong; take advantage of every opportunity to raise a political whirlwind".

This quote - and philosophy - by the way, is attributed to Adolf Hitler.

Obviously, it takes some preconditions for populism to work in politics. You need the equivalent of a weak ref - like, say, a congress that's afraid to vote you out because they're afraid of being voted out themselves, or a Supreme Court you yourself just stacked and will ignore or refuse to enforce the law.

The problem is, even then, populist tactics only work so long. For starters, leaders can only keep their followers angry for so long, and for another, when a populist leader wins they become the guy in charge. And at some point it's not enough to blame your opponent or predecessor for everything that's wrong...okay, you've had plenty of time to identify and fix these problems you were ventilating about, now where is your solution?

(Crickets chirp.) And the angry mob you stirred up...starts getting angry at you.

And perhaps most importantly, when your sole tactic (and your ingrained reflex!) becomes to attempt to obliterate anybody who disagrees with you, eventually everyone becomes your enemy.

And the world has you outnumbered. That's the reason why folks - even ordinary folks - who lead with their anger invariably get beat down; they either wind up in prison or as pariahs, unloved mean old people with a shotgun full of rock salt yelling at kids to Git Off Their Lawn. Whatever, eventually you go too far, pick a fight you can't win...and you wind up a cautionary tale in the history books. Caesar got it in the back from everyone concerned he was bringing down the Republic including his best boy Brutus. Hitler turned on and invaded Russia. Senator Joseph McCarthy, probably the most populist American leader we've had until (cough) the present day, stopped blacklisting Hollywood actors and directors...and picked a fight with the Army. These guys always go too far; they can't help it. Picking fights is what they do; they simply can't live in peace; populists simply are not gregarious enough to maintain a civilization, much less a competent government. Behind every pointless fight...is just another pointless fight. And eventually along comes the one that gets you.

So populism has an expiration date. Principles don't.

You may notice I haven't said any kind of names. I don't have to. Because history decides. History always decides. And in the end, people can scream in rage, people can spin, people can outright lie...but the truth has a way of always getting out.

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Would you consider the Founding Fathers populist?


Oct 14, 2019, 5:38 PM

I may read on in your essay.

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Re: Would you consider the Founding Fathers populist?


Oct 14, 2019, 6:19 PM

Exactly the opposite.

The Founding Fathers became the Founding Fathers precisely because they had a vision for what they were trying to achieve. They built something; they didn't just tear something down.

They wanted democracy. They wanted a government of the people. They wanted freedom from kings, the right to chart their own destiny. All of that and a whole lot more was stated in the Declaration of Independence, and the particulars were established in the Constitutional Convention in 1787.

They were anti-populists, visionaries. They were often contentious - Alexander Hamilton was killed by Aaron Burr in a duel, for instance - but there was mutual respect; these were the time's greatest thinkers - bright guys, collaborating with other bright guys in a very think-tank-type environment to try to build a form of government that had never really been tried before, at least not since Greek times. What they pulled off has endured more than 230 years and has completely changed the world, and much for the better. It was an act of extraordinary reasoning. Populism is based on blind, visceral emotion, usually xenophobia and tribalism, hatred of perceived "others".

Populists...aren't usually bright guys, and they certainly don't collaborate; they're always dominated by a single hyper-alpha personality that dominates a bunch of faceless Beta types who are promoted more for their pliability than their capability. These leaders invariably run off (or kill!) would-be rivals who stand up to them, and what's left is...well, crap.

For instance, leading up to the Nuremburg trials that led to the hanging and jailing of numerous high-ranking Nazis, Allied psychologists interviewing these guys and expecting criminal masterminds were instead shocked by how...mediocre most of the top Nazis were. Hitler's top staff weren't dynamic, intelligent personalities, they were almost all on the high end of average intelligence (around 105 was their average IQ, whereas the average among the general population is 90-110) and most of them were caustic, uncharismatic, and unlikeable, and most of them were drawn heavily from blue-collar professions and had been elevated far beyond their competence, expertise, or education. (Hitler actually disliked "professionals" because he considered them uppity and likely to contradict him.)

So he got a pack of inept sycophants who toadied up to him instead.

Psychologists at the time didn't use Kohlberg's morality scale at the time (Kohlberg didn't come along until the 1950's) but in retrograding their responses most of the high-end Nazis would have graded no higher than a "2" on Kohlberg's scale - the scale runs from 0 to 7, with a zero being a pure psychopath and a 7 being a Jesus or a Ghandi who responds only to higher moral principles - which correlates to "whatever the boss says is right". Most of these Nazis got a "1" on that scale, which means many of them were concerned only about getting caught or not getting caught; they were effectively sociopaths.

But they were good at getting along with the boss.

That was hardly the dynamic in play with the Founding Fathers. Watch any group of really bright people inter-react sometime in some big collaborative environment; the positive energy basically radiates.

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So they didn't put America first?


Oct 14, 2019, 6:29 PM

If they gave up any principles it was to get the states onboard with the concept of a central federal government. They put America first.

When you start comparing a political opponent to Hitler and invoke the NAZI party you're at the end of your argument. That's twice now.

Whether intentional or incidental you've put Trump in the bunker with Adolf. That's not how half of America views Trump. You've made it clear you want him impeached and removed from office. Are you impeaching his supporter and revolking their votes too?

The slanderous comparison to Hitler's followers and the American voter who support Trump is beyond your integrity. I'm not sure if that's how you meant it but that's what you wrote.


Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®


Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®


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Re: So they didn't put America first?


Oct 14, 2019, 8:23 PM

Trump isn't a Hitler.

Hitler was an extreme populist, yes. What made him so different was his degree of political sophistication...and the sheer scale of his malice. He also had something very few populists - who tend to be disorganized sloppy opportunists who thrive on chaos - didn't have: a very detailed plan.

Keep in mind Hitler tried - and failed - to take over Germany in 1923 in the failed "Beer Hall Putsch" in Munich. Basically he tried to stir up an angry mob and take control of the Bavarian government; it was put down and Adolf wound up in jail for his troubles. So he sat in his cell for awhile, stewed...and planned. He wrote Mein Kamp - a spectacularly self-congratulatory autobiography that also showed his intentions very clearly, but more to the point, he also figured out that if you're going to displace the old government you need to have a new one ready to take over. So he re-organized the Nazi Party as an effective government-in-waiting, with all their roles, responsibilities, and structure already established, and when von Hindenburg - the President of Germany (and incidentally the guy for whom that exploding blimp was named, which is apt!) - finally caved and appointed Hitler as the German chancellor in 1933, Hitler hit the ground running. Instantly he had his alternate government humming and before the country even knew what had hit them all the mechanisms of power belonged to him - the government services, the army, the police, the bureaucracy. And almost instantly he implemented the plan he had formulated in jail, to re-arm Germany and begin his rounding up and mass murder of Jews, Communists, Gypsies...and later, Labor Unions. (Truth - I'm 3/4 German myself...and my grandparents arrived in America in the 1930's not speaking a word of English because their parents were members of a potato-pickers union, realized they were on The List, and got out while the getting was good. So this is family history to me.)

Trump is small potatoes compared to that.

Most history buffs would say Trump actually compares more to Mussolini. If Italy hadn't gotten tangled up as part of the Axis, Mussolini would have lived and died as just yet another populist strongman dictator. Mussolini wasn't any great thinker, wasn't any great planner, and until he met Hitler, anyhow, didn't have any grand ambitions beyond living large, looting his country to the walls, and banging every hottie who crossed his path, like Clare Petacci, the sister of actress Miriam Day, who was executed with Mussolini in 1945. But Hitler loved his history books and for whatever odd reason - Hitler had a lot of those - viewed Italy as the spiritual successor to the Roman Empire, not realizing just how thoroughly Italy had degenerated into a bunch of cynical city-states that didn't even particularly like each other anymore. Whatever, Italy in the 1940's was never hot for world domination and most Italians actually felt they were on the wrong side. Mussolini's Fascists - or "Brownshirts" - were basically just a bunch of thugs who intimidated opponents at the voting booth and shook down shopkeepers for money. While there were plenty of groups they didn't like, even the Fascists shrunk from the mass murder of Jews or any other group, and in fact in many places throughout Italy even Fascists themselves were often complicit in hiding Jews when the Nazis demanded they hand them over. They were bullies and thugs, not mass murderers.

Putin, though...is a villain. Not as bad as Hitler...but much, much worse than Trump, and worse, Trump seems to be in his orbit. The problem seems to be that exactly like Mussolini, Trump seems to solicit the approval of the genuine bad guys exactly like Putin - Trump's also boys with Erdogan, Kim Jong-Un, and Saudi Crown Prince Muhommed bin Salman. Why? He clearly admires them, seems to think they're "real tough guys" - he uses phrases exactly like that to describe them - and he definitely seems to envy their absolute power to do whatever they want, whenever they want, to whoever they care to do it to.

That is disturbing for people who like democracy. Not to mention fundamental human decency.

Like I said, Trump's no Hitler...but America's swimming in dark waters right now. Which is why so many people are so very worried.

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Mussolini, really?


Oct 14, 2019, 10:58 PM

This type hate will consume you.

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Re: So they didn't put America first?


Oct 14, 2019, 9:51 PM [ in reply to So they didn't put America first? ]

You clearly did not read his post or get what he wrote. You asked if the Founding Fathers were populists; he proved why they were not. In fact, the Founding Fathers put in a system to stop populism. Hopefully, you and the rest of the Trump ilk are going to get a good lesson in it soon.

He cites the Nazis as it was the last, massive, infamous populist movement, and it has served as the warning against future populism. He cites that Hitler didn't promote geniuses; in fact, they were average or imbeciles, and they were promoted for their pure loyalty along with the freedom to carry on their unsavory behavior. We similar mentality with Trump, although not on the same level, of course.

Hitler's loyalists--like any populist crowd and their leader--blindly followed him, defended him, and attacked anyone who questioned him. That's what a populist mob does for their leader, and it was just Hitler.

Sound familiar? Because you're in their ranks right now. You yourself stated you have a blind following for Trump due to personal reasons, and nothing else he does will turn you from it. There you go.

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You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

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You are suffering your own emotions.


Oct 14, 2019, 11:00 PM

Relax, Trump will be gone in five years.

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Re: Populism and reductive politics


Oct 14, 2019, 6:38 PM

Quozz, why are you writing this here? While I truly love T-Net, I don’t see how this venue is worthy of such a composition. You should be writing for Time magazine, NYTimes, Washington Post, the Globe, etc....

This is an excellent piece. Was shocked that quote was attributed to Hitler. History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

Tend to agree with Ray Dalio that the geopolitical climate of this period most closely resembles that of the late 1930’s. Buckle up.

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Re: Populism and reductive politics


Oct 15, 2019, 1:21 PM


Quozz, why are you writing this here? While I truly love T-Net, I don’t see how this venue is worthy of such a composition. You should be writing for Time magazine, NYTimes, Washington Post, the Globe, etc....

This is an excellent piece. Was shocked that quote was attributed to Hitler. History doesn’t repeat itself, but it does rhyme.

Tend to agree with Ray Dalio that the geopolitical climate of this period most closely resembles that of the late 1930’s. Buckle up.




I...certainly appreciate the sentiment. But honestly it's just an opinion...and as you can clearly see from the responses, one not everybody shares.

I'll go let Time know they need to be buying my stuff, though. I'll let you know how that goes. <img border=">

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Re: Populism and reductive politics


Oct 15, 2019, 3:03 PM

I tend to think Huey Long is the closest comparison. Their backgrounds diverge wildly, though they both claimed to represent the common (disenfranchised) man. Huey Long actually was a common man from humble beginnings.

I’d also argue that both were able to skillfully surf the impersonal geopolitical forces that shaped their time and ultimately led to their ascensions to power. Research shows that wealth inequality tends to inevitably increase in a capitalist system, albeit at different rates. In the US, this wealth gap really only been reset by the first two world wars. Research has also indicated that the trust metric within a society deteriorated as this wealth disparity between rich and poor grows. Full disclosure: I’m a hard core capitalist, just concerned with the parallels between now and the 1930’s

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Superbly done, but...


Oct 14, 2019, 9:41 PM

It will fly right over the heads of the populists here. The problem with populists is that they always think they're on the side of right and justice.

You are correct that there has always been a shelf life of populist movements. The problem is how much damage they do before they're stopped. History doesn't paint a great picture of that, either.



Probably your most telling line, and we see it practiced quite well here. Anyone who disagrees with a Trump populist here is a "lib" and "enemy of America".

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


Try that again...


Oct 14, 2019, 9:42 PM

I meant this quote:

And perhaps most importantly, when your sole tactic (and your ingrained reflex!) becomes to attempt to obliterate anybody who disagrees with you, eventually everyone becomes your enemy.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


You two are passionate about making this an us vs them...


Oct 14, 2019, 11:06 PM [ in reply to Superbly done, but... ]

issue. It isn't. Trump is all about putting America first. A lot of Americans can see that and they like it. He is going to wax dat asz next year. That is the main reason the dems are throwing the hail mary pass instead of trying to woo the voters with sound logic and solid platforms.

You guys want to incite anger, fear and other consuming emotions. All you're doing is getting yourself all hyped up with no way to vent your emotions.

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Really?


Oct 15, 2019, 7:36 AM

Sorry man, you're a bit naive in this. How many times has Trump labeled other groups of Americans as enemies, and how much have all of y'all nibbled on that bait? That's his whole rhetoric: us vs. them. Who is calling for civil war? Trump and his followers, or those opposed to him?

You're also naive to think he's putting America first. He puts Trump first just like any despot does, and his blatant disregard for the Constitution, his actions towards our allies, and his continuing efforts to fragment our society shows his actions are counter-intuitive to putting America first.


You guys want to incite anger, fear and other consuming emotions.


Again, that's all Trump does. Not a shred of hope or optimism in his words. And again, your adoration of him has made you naive.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


Re: Really?


Oct 15, 2019, 9:30 AM

You're ignoring the obvious. Those who oppose Trump are the ones not allowing free speech on college campuses and rioting in the streets over conservative speakers. It isn't the Trump supporters who are gathering outside political opponents rallies and threatening/attacking those considered political enemies.

Now you can say Trump outrages the left but if everything you did outraged me folks would say I have a problem and I am the problem. Seldom would they attack you.

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Re: Really?


Oct 15, 2019, 10:42 AM

Those who oppose Trump are the ones not allowing free speech on college campuses and rioting in the streets over conservative speakers.

Yeah? When have I or anyone else on this board who opposes Trump done this?

You're citing a very, very small minority of Trump opponents. Fringe people at that.

There are millions upon millions of Americans who oppose him.

Also, all those white supremacists are Trump supporters and they're quite good at violence and suppressing speech. But that's one fringe group and not indicative of the entire base of Trump support.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


Re: Really?


Oct 15, 2019, 12:40 PM [ in reply to Re: Really? ]

Not everyone’s aware and tuned in to how effed up the country was before Trump 1988. To varying degrees, it was thankfully felt by enough people to swing the pendulum in the other direction. You’ll never get through the cognitive dissonance barrier.

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I really don't expect to.


Oct 15, 2019, 2:40 PM

The victims of the PC crowd and the progressive left don't feel the pain yet. The only thing that unites them is their hate for Trump. He's turned the doves to hawks, the spendcrzy to conservative and united people who have deep seeded hate for one another. I'm talking AOC and the established dems.

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You just proved quoz's point with this post.***


Oct 15, 2019, 2:59 PM



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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


In regards to your last line


Oct 15, 2019, 8:15 AM [ in reply to Superbly done, but... ]

I’d say the converse is also generally true. Anyone who tries to take a balanced, objective assessment of the current administration and doesn’t automatically denounce anything associated with him is a “Trumpie” or whatever term implies a lemming infatuated with a cult of personality.

Also interesting to me about your first paragraph is that so much of the far left is also a populist movement, down to using the “we’re on the right side of history” phrase as nauseum.

Populists left, populists right these days. It’s lonely out here for a pragmatist.

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“Ad” not as. God I hate this phone.***


Oct 15, 2019, 8:16 AM



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Re: In regards to your last line


Oct 15, 2019, 8:57 AM [ in reply to In regards to your last line ]

Not true. There are many here who have defended some of the actions of the Trump admin, and I don't label them as such. You, Flow, Prod, etc. There is a very distinct line between those who like some of what he's done and those who defend every #### thing he does. And if you recall, there are even some items where I've praised this admin (like criminal justice reform and keeping us out of wars). I don't recall people on here labeling you as a Trump loyalist.

Populism isn't owned by the right or the left. We've seen plenty of populist leftist movements. They're more commonly associated with the right only because the loyalty/authority value registers higher with people who lean right. But history is littered with fallacious leftist populism.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


my mistake


Oct 15, 2019, 9:30 AM

I was speed reading on a small screen and missed “populist” and took it as “ anyone who disagrees with Trump......”

I well know that you don’t put me in that camp, so apologies if that seemed aimed at you.....there are several here that have though and I really don’t get it.

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You didn’t name names. Allow me.


Oct 15, 2019, 12:29 PM

Reductive tactics:
- The mainstream media: 90% negative Trump coverage, much of it fabricated and opinion (per Harvard study)
- Hollywood (the people mistaken as “important)
- Target and eliminate their best player, Trump.

The ref: The Media. Authority figure that shapes public perception.

Defined by what they hate: 3 years of Nonstop anti-Trump behavior. One year away from an election but hey, let’s impeach him now.

No higher calling: Anti God, Anti Church, Support and promote every form of degenerate mental illness from transgenderism to corrupting children with “drag queen story hour” i.e, no moral center.

The SC has not been tested as a participant in this reductive theory although the “hate” reference was clearly on display during the last SC judicial appointment. Good thing the ref was fair on that one! The US Congress, save for a few members, answers to another master and it isn’t you or me.

The angry mob starts getting angry at you:
The Presidents approval rating is higher than your boy Obongos lol.

Bad boy populists can’t live in peace: Especially when they’re not allowed to.

Along comes the fight that gets you: like impeachment, done in secret behind closed doors, with one-sided arguments, and a witness with no identity.

Yeah, I’d be looking for a fight too.

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