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All-In [43999]
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Please stop griping about Clemson basketball.
Feb 25, 2016, 8:17 PM
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It gets SO old, hearing Clemson fans gripe about how basketball is so disappointing. People complain about the team "underachieving," failing to make the NCAA Tournament, and inconsistent play. They complain about Brownell, his contract, and even specific players they don't like. I get it, we all want to compete at a higher level. I want that as much as anyone here, I assure you.
However, the bottom line is this: if you want to be better at basketball, you should be willing to allocate more of the athletic department budget to it. You probably think that we spend a lot on basketball, but we do not. A few years ago, another Clemson website did an analysis of athletic department budgets in the ACC. It was very revealing. Of the 12 ACC teams at the time, Clemson ranked 11th out of 12 teams in terms of money spent on basketball.
Conclusion: we are near the bottom of the ACC in athletic department money spent on basketball.
What's interesting is that, despite spending less than all but one ACC school, we are a middle of the pack ACC team under Brownell.
Let's also look at coaches' salaries. Brad Brownell makes $1.65 million this year. Here are the salaries of some of his ACC peers:
Mike Krzyzerwski, Duke, $9.6 million
Rick Pitino, Louisville, $6.1 million
Jamie Dixon, Pittsburgh, $3.2 million
Buzz Williams, Virginia Tech, $2.3 million
Jim Boeheim, Syracuse, $2.4 million
Tony Bennett, Virginia, $2.1 million
Mark Gottfried, NC State, $2.1 million
Danny Manning, Wake Forest, $2 million
Leonard Hamilton, Florida State, $1.6 million
Mike Brey, Notre Dame, $1.6 million
Jim Larranaga, Miami, $1.3 million
Brian Gregory, Georgia Tech, $1.1 million
As you can see, we aren't paying an exorbitant amount to Brownell, even when considering the questionable raise he received a couple of years ago. He makes a fair salary, yes, but it isn't out of line with his performance. In fact, his salary is less than the average ACC basketball salary, yet his performance is typically middle of the pack in the ACC.
I realize that spending more money on basketball isn't a guarantee of success. In addition, there are always exceptions to programs which don't spend much on money and are successful on a consistent basis - but these instances are rare. Generally speaking, the more a school commits to a sport, the better they will perform. We have seen this with football over the past 5 years. We have spent more on facilities, and more on coaches, and we have reaped the rewards.
If we are willing to spend more on basketball (and I definitely think we should be), then we are likely to win more games and compete the way all of us want to. The Littlejohn renovations are certainly a part of that, but we must continue to put money into basketball in other ways as well. Remember, we are not simply trying to compete with other ACC schools, but do so while ALSO overcoming our poor basketball history.
I don't know if Brownell is the answer, but I can tell you without any hesitation that he is not the main problem. The problems we see with Clemson basketball are more about the culture around it at Clemson, rather than the coach. Yes, Purnell overcame those problems, but we cannot expect every coach to be able to do that. It's ridiculous to choose a three year stretch under Oliver Purnell, or a few years under Rick Barnes, out of decades of Clemson basketball, and expect that to occur on a routine basis when our athletic department mostly treats basketball like a red-headed stepchild.
If Brownell isn't the answer - and I am certainly aware that he might not be - then our next hire better be a big one. Otherwise, we are likely to continue seeing our team fail to compete consistently and be an NCAA Tournament team as often as we would like.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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how do you continue to make this argument when you have
Feb 25, 2016, 8:21 PM
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both the Barnes and OP era's staring at you?
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Orange Blooded [4142]
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Re: how do you continue to make this argument when you have
Feb 25, 2016, 8:52 PM
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Barnes leaving for a bigger market proves his point .
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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it absolutely does not... I would love it if BB had an
Feb 25, 2016, 9:06 PM
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opportunity to leave b/c he won like Barnes did. It would mean we were relevant and competing.
Your premise makes no sense.
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CU Guru [1639]
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Re: how do you continue to make this argument when you have
Feb 25, 2016, 9:16 PM
[ in reply to how do you continue to make this argument when you have ] |
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Barnes had basically one good recruiting class.Barnes lost half a class to Dean Smith. When OP left the cupboard was bare. He knew his recruiting was down the tube. Plus both had same problem -couldn't keep their pants zipped.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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what does any of that have to do with what they accomplished
Feb 25, 2016, 9:26 PM
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at Clemson?
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Orange Blooded [4974]
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Re: what does any of that have to do with what they accomplished
Feb 27, 2016, 8:25 PM
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The point is they could not sustain it and they knew it so they quit. They couldn't handle not being able to be an upper tier program. They knew they could never get there so they quit. Are you stupid. It's as plain as the nose on your face assuming you have one.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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All-In [43999]
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A blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then.
Feb 25, 2016, 9:37 PM
[ in reply to how do you continue to make this argument when you have ] |
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Play enough seasons and you are bound to have some good ones here and there. Every coach we have had in recent memory, with the exception of Larry Shyatt, had successful seasons. Bill Foster had some bad ones and some good ones. So did Cliff Ellis, Rick Barnes, and Oliver Purnell. Brad Brownell has too.
Barnes and Purnell are two excellent coaches. We did a great job hiring them and a horrible job retaining them. Interestingly, the two coaches you and others prop up as the coaching standard both abandoned Clemson. Let that sink in.
If we were really committed to basketball, we would support basketball in a way that allowed us to keep our best coaches. If not, we would attract better ones.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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Where do I begin with this?
Feb 25, 2016, 9:48 PM
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1. You open your post by saying "a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then". You then go on to say, "Barnes and Purnell were two excellent coaches. Which one is it?
2. How are we defining success? In D1 college basketball, success is defined by reaching the NCAAT. Period. If you are playing well and "being successful" in your conference, you are reaching the tourney. This is not a debatable point.
3. Why would they not be the "coaching standard" at Clemson. What is wrong with that? Barnes took us to a # 2 national ranking, multiple NCAAT's, and challenged the mighty Dean Smith. Oliver Purnell played for an ACCT Championship, went to 3 straight NCAAT's, and won more ACC games in those 3 years than any other school not in blue.
4. They did all that... ALL THAT... under the same "conditions" everyone gives as excuses for BB.... such as recruiting, facilities, etc....
5. During his last 5 years here, 3 of which he made the tourney... Purnell played an SOS of 35.
6. During the last 5 years of the Brownell era, in which we HAVE NOT made the NCAAT, he has played an SOS of 78.
7. This IS NOT an issue of support for the Coach. Brownell hasn't done anything to entice anyone to come after him. What does support have to do with anything? If he had suitors b/c of his accomplishments, and we refused to try to keep him... that's one thing. However, that concept HAS NOTHING TO DO with current results.
8. What in ##### does how they left Clemson have to do with what they put on the floor and the accomplishments they had here?
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Legend [15503]
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Re: Where do I begin with this?
Feb 25, 2016, 10:09 PM
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+1 for the "#####". That one, I will remember. Oh, and you are so right! The argument about how much those other coaches make is nonsense. If BB had a record like Mike Krezeuwesheskheiugh, or any of the others, he could make that amount at Clemson, too. The salary of our coaches reflects accomplishments or lack thereof, in most cases. When Dabo wins as many "natty's" as Saban, he probably will make that much money, too, and the same can be said for BB, were he to win as many as "Coach K". We will open the checkbook for performance. We will, eventually, run a coach off for mediocrity, though sometimes, it takes way too long.
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All-In [43999]
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I'm not sure who anointed you TigerNet basketball czar.
Feb 25, 2016, 11:50 PM
[ in reply to Where do I begin with this? ] |
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Maybe you don't mean to come across as a condescending know-it-all.
To address your points:
1. The blind squirrel is Clemson basketball. We have occasionally hired some good coaches, and have thus had some successful seasons here and there, but in general we have not made the sustained commitment to basketball in order to have consistent success.
2. Success for us, given our history, is making the NCAA Tournament. I think we should expect to make it every year. Those who try to rationalize our basketball failures by staying that we are a football school, a non-urban campus, etc. Those are cop-outs by fans who aren't willing to admit that we have failed as a basketball program because we haven't spent money on it.
3. Barnes and Purnell, while more successful than Brownell thus far, did not accomplish what I feel should be viewed as the ultimate achievement. Barnes had a nice run to the Sweet Sixteen one year, but disappointing early exits in other years. Purnell never won an NCAA Tournament game. Both did great things for Clemson, but they also left Clemson. Interestingly, both did so in a very rude way. Our ultimate, perfect coach is going to win big - bigger than they did - and also want to be at Clemson. It's partly on our AD and fans to keep them happy.
4. Purnell had a new arena and practice facility which were completed when he started at Clemson. He was actually interviewed by Clemson several years prior and stated that he did not feel that Clemson was committed to basketball at that time. As I've said before, we have had flashes of interest in being a good basketball program, but we never seem to continue it.
As for Barnes, he was a good coach we got in spite of our lack of consistent basketball support. He also left us, surely due in part because we didn't support basketball like Texas did.
As I said in my initial post, odds are that we will occasionally get a great coach in spite of ourselves. If we continue to be cheap with our next hire, we might get lucky and get a great one. But we stand a much better chance of getting a great one if we up the ante and consistently support basketball for once.
5. That's great. Purnell did a really good job at Clemson. He also reached his ceiling as he never won an NCAA Tournament game. Oh, and he left in the middle of the night for DePaul.
6. Okay. He has not achieved the success that Purnell did. Nobody is arguing otherwise.
7. I don't think you understand what I mean by support. Broadly, it means our athletic department putting substantial money into the program, CONSISTENTLY. Brownell has had crappy facilities - arguably the worst in the ACC except for Virginia Tech - his entire tenure. He won't have new ones until year six. For a program with a pathetic basketball history, in a string conference like the ACC, facilities are key.
Support also means having fans who care. Showing up to see the team when they are good is easy. Every school has that. What we need is to have a core group of fans who support the team regardless. I can't help but think that a great crowd might have made the difference in close December games against Alabama and South Carolina. I went to the game against SC, and it was disgusting how the Gamecock fans were much louder and more involved than Clemson fans.
As a whole, Clemson fans care more about football, football practice, football recruiting, and what prospective football recruits are doing than the basketball team. Of course Clemson football is the top priority, but basketball better be a strong 1b if we want to be consistently successful. The perception that we only care about football hurts us in recruiting and it hurts us in coaching searches. There are plenty of other schools with fans who care just as much as we do about football, but also seem to find space in their fandom for strong basketball support as well.
8. Their departures don't diminish their on court success, but should certainly call into question the apparent place they hold in your mind as perfect coaches.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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nobody said they are perfect coaches... you are missing
Feb 25, 2016, 11:59 PM
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the point...
The point is... for what reason should Brad Brownell get another year, if we do not make a historic run?
When this question is asked, you, and others, continually point to all the excuses. The ONLY reason Purnell and Barnes come into the convo is because they were successful here, and in a much shorter period of time. That's the only way they figure into this.
Ok.. take them out...
Brownell has done nothing to show he should get a year 7. Zero.
5 straight no tourney appearance...
and what is the excuse people keep using about KJ leaving??? So Clemson loses ONE guy to the league, and that's an excuse for several more years of rebuilding?
Barnes came in and did it... then left
OP came in and did it... then left
Brownell hasn't done ANYTHING.
I like Brad Brownell, and have always pulled for him I really, really want him to do well. But the fact remains that NONE of the excuses being thrown around make any sense.
We were 7-3 in the ACC this year, with the easiest remaining schedule left...and 6 games later we are completely out of the conversation... and that is in year 6 of a coach he hasn't gone in the previous 5.
I like the guy... but I CANNOT figure out how you guys rationalize this when you have documented, recent history of Clemson being a consistent NCAAT tourney team.
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All-In [43999]
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Who is rationalizing?
Feb 26, 2016, 12:28 AM
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Am I pleased with a season where we don't make the NCAA Tournament? No, I'm not. I think we should have an expectation of making it every year.
Brownell has fallen short of that. That's on him. However, there is no denying that he has had some significant challenges:
-He lost a key assistant each year for several years in a row during the early part of his tenure.
-He lost his leading scorer each year until this one
-He has had crappy facilities compared to other ACC fans
-He has poor fan support compared to other ACC teams.
The first two are bad luck. The second two are institutional/program culture problems. These latter two are what I am focusing on.
I realize that we have had good coaches before. You mentioned Barnes and Purnell. Nobody is arguing that it can't happen again. My point is that it is not very likely to happen as long as we continue our mediocre and inconsistent support of basketball. Because history shows that the few times we get a great coach, we can't keep them.
The people who are rationalizing are those who want to continue spending the minimum on basketball yet always find reasons why we don't win more, why we can't recruit better, and why we can't keep great coaches.
I've said numerous times that I'm for getting rid of Brownell if we are going to show a new, more significant commitment to basketball at Clemson. I'm willing to do that. Are you?
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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absolutely...
Feb 26, 2016, 12:35 AM
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but I'm not buying the money argument. I don't think that has anything to do with our inability to get it done vs. bad OOC teams or ACC games where there is a ton on the line.
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All-In [43999]
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I disagree. Money would likely make a difference.
Feb 27, 2016, 7:46 PM
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With more money spent on basketball, we could pay a better salary and get a coach more proven than Brownell.
Giving Brownell more money wouldn't solve that problem, and I have never argued that he should get more. He has not been successful enough to justify that.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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Clemson's bball hires over the years
Feb 27, 2016, 7:50 PM
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several of these guys were successful here (Locke, Ellis, Barnes, OP)
Tates Locke hired from Miami of Ohio.
Bill Foster hired from Charlotte.
Cliff Ellis hired from South Alabama.
Rick Barnes hired from Providence who had hired him from George Mason.
Larry Shyatt hired from Wyoming.
Oliver Purnell hired from Dayton who had hired him from ODU
Brad Brownell hired from Wright State
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All-In [43999]
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Again, I'm not saying that cheaper hires can't be successful
Feb 28, 2016, 3:14 PM
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at Clemson. They can be. But it makes a lot more sense to get a proven coach at the high major level, especially at a school like Clemson without a strong basketball history who also plays in arguably the toughest basketball conference.
Dabo was a huge risk for football, but it paid off. He is proof that a young up-and-comer who isn't proven on this level can be successful at Clemson and also be happy here. That is extremely rare in any sport. We can certainly take that risk in basketball, but the chances of it paying off are MUCH less than if we just hire a proven guy to begin with.
With regard to your list:
-Tates Locke cheated.
-Cliff Ellis cheated (and was only good for 1 NCAA Tournament every 3-4 years).
-Rick Barnes abandoned us.
-Oliver Purnell abandoned us.
Getting a talented and successful coach is only half of the battle. Keeping successful ones happy, and keeping them here over the long term, is what we must do. More support for basketball in the form of more salary, facilities, and fan support are how we do that (and we've NEVER done it in basketball).
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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you're pretty loose with the word "abandoned"...
Feb 28, 2016, 3:48 PM
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The average tenure for ACC coaches, as of 2013, was about four years (minus K)... that's a little higher now for sure...
but OP stayed 7.
If you want to have a discussion about the evils of money, that's fine... but idc
I'll not fault a coach for being successful enough to have suitors, nor for leaving for "greener" pastures.
Perhaps if BB had been more succesful, he would have had some suitors, and he'd be on your "abandoned" list
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Orange Blooded [4974]
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Re: you're pretty loose with the word "abandoned"...
Feb 28, 2016, 11:13 PM
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I think Judge Keller has been explicit that Clemson's pasture is not as green as it could be. Getting rid of Browmell now is counterproductive unless a high profile coach with a proven track record can be brought in. Is that so hard to understand? Give CBB at least next season in the spruced up Littlejohn and then go from there. And keep the pasture as green as possible no matter what!
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All-In [43999]
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Exactly. Very well said!***
Feb 28, 2016, 11:14 PM
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All-In [48078]
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Scout Team [171]
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All-TigerNet [10901]
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Absolutely nothing, and nothing.***
Feb 27, 2016, 9:26 PM
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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Orange Blooded [4504]
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Both of those are old news. Brownell is our coach and he
Feb 25, 2016, 9:53 PM
[ in reply to how do you continue to make this argument when you have ] |
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and the players deserve fan's support while they are at Clemson. All are giving their best effort and if the AD, president and board decide he isn't the answer it will be based on facts not rants on the internet. IMO he is a very capable coach who has done a good job with the talent on hand and has finished higher in the ACC than what was projected practically every year. The new Littlejohn should improve recruiting.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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I like BB... I want BB to win here.. I hope we end the
Feb 25, 2016, 9:57 PM
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season on a miraculous run and get into the NCAAT...
but I CANNOT STAND this rhetoric that what BB has done the last 5 years is better than Purnell's one and done's. It is the stupidest thing I have ever read.
And I can't stand the "we don't support basketball or our coaches" argument...
Both Barnes and OP WON GAMES and advanced to the NCAAT multiple times before they figured that out and left.... You can't use that argument with Brownell.
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All-In [43999]
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Who is arguing that Brownell has accomplished more than Purnell?!?
Feb 25, 2016, 11:56 PM
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You obviously have a thing for Purnell. I'm glad you like him so much. He did a great job here. But you must also be willing to acknowledge his shortcomings. You have no problem pointing out Beownell's failures. Why can't you do the same with Purnell?
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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what do you want me to point out? Oliver Purnell
Feb 26, 2016, 12:04 AM
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has never won an NCAAT game.... That's a huge deal. It was a huge deal when he was here.
But do you know why it was a huge deal??? Because we were actually going to the tournament. You have to be there for it to be a huge deal.
There was talk, when OP lost his 2nd, that we should move on b/c he couldn't win in the NCAAT. There was some merit to that. But there's only merit to that when you are actually getting there... so using that little tidbit against OP and in defense of Brownell is laughable, at best.
Purnell is used b/c he is proof of what Clemson can do... and he truly did it from NOTHING. That's why he comes up when the excuses for Brownell start rolling in after year 6.
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Orange Blooded [4974]
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Re: how do you continue to make this argument when you have
Feb 27, 2016, 8:18 PM
[ in reply to how do you continue to make this argument when you have ] |
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Why do you think Barnes and Opie left Clemson? And please don't give me that they couldn't keep it in their pants b******* they left because the job was too #### tough for him they'd rather find something easier to do please excuse the grammar mistakes android phone with voice command to text problems
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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All-In [43999]
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Which is why I'm saying that we need to be willing
Feb 28, 2016, 3:16 PM
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to pay our successful coaches more money. That shows our commitment to basketball and increases the chances that they will be happy at Clemson. Otherwise, we are a school who is not serious about basketball and merely a stepping stone job.
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Legend [16121]
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Why did't OP give Clemson a chance to counter if it was
Feb 28, 2016, 11:45 PM
[ in reply to as I said earlier... ] |
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strictly a money issue?
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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how do you know we didn't?***
Feb 28, 2016, 11:46 PM
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Legend [16121]
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link to this counter offer?***
Feb 28, 2016, 11:49 PM
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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this is your fantasy... i'm not the one
Feb 28, 2016, 11:55 PM
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butthurt over someone going after more money...
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Legend [16121]
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nice projecting, can you provide any proof of your claims?***
Feb 28, 2016, 11:58 PM
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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who said we did.... do you have proof of your claim
Feb 28, 2016, 11:59 PM
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we didn't let him?
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Legend [16121]
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no, your claim that I'm butthurt because he left for more
Feb 29, 2016, 12:14 AM
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money?
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Legend [16121]
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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link to where I said we did
Feb 29, 2016, 12:00 AM
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you stated he didn't let us counter.... where's your proof?
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Legend [16121]
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he resigned, there's my proof***
Feb 29, 2016, 12:15 AM
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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Legend [16121]
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he called in the middle of the night and quit, there's my
Feb 29, 2016, 12:17 AM
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proof
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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haha***
Feb 29, 2016, 12:17 AM
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All-In [43999]
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When it was announced that Purnell had resigned
Mar 1, 2016, 1:35 AM
[ in reply to how do you know we didn't?*** ] |
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and was taking the job at DePaul, TDP was interviewed about it. He expressed confusion and disappointment that Purnell left when and how he did. He stated that he was not given an opportunity to give Purnell a raise, but that he certainly would have tried to keep him if there were an open door.
It is still a really odd situation. We will probably never know the full story.
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All-TigerNet [14451]
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Re: When it was announced that Purnell had resigned
Mar 1, 2016, 7:15 AM
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fact of the matter is judge, op could not keep his zipper zipped. as we all know p..... is undefeated. lol
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Legend [16121]
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When OSU came a calling for Rick, he allowed a counter and
Feb 28, 2016, 11:53 PM
[ in reply to Why did't OP give Clemson a chance to counter if it was ] |
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we kept him, when he left for UT it wasn't about the money, the raise was less than $100k....There was no counter because OP called to quit, not renegotiate
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110%er [5977]
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Re: Please stop griping about Clemson basketball.
Feb 25, 2016, 8:40 PM
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I wouldn't pay Brownell any more money, because he can't recruit players, not even good players in this state. I would be willing to pay a coach that can recruit and get good players a lot more than what we are paying Brownell, I don't think giving him a bigger salary or a bigger budget would result in anymore wins.
I would be very much in favor of paying Gregg Marshall 3.5 to 4.0 million a year to come to Clemson. I think he would have us in the NCAA's in less than 3 years and have the program in very strong shape. If we keep Brownell it will just be more of the same, 15 to 20 wins a year and getting run out of the gym by South Carolina.
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Orange Blooded [4142]
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Re: Please stop griping about Clemson basketball.
Feb 25, 2016, 8:54 PM
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Barnes couldn't recruit them either.
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110%er [5977]
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Re: Please stop griping about Clemson basketball.
Feb 25, 2016, 11:04 PM
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If you were truly following Clemson basketball when Rich Barnes was here, you'd known right away he had no intentions of staying at Clemson very long. No coach basketball coach who is trying to build a long term basketball program has 8 players in the same class and later after a upper classman redshirted he had 9 players on a 13 man roster in the same class.
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110%er [6321]
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Re: Please stop griping about Clemson basketball.
Feb 25, 2016, 9:12 PM
[ in reply to Re: Please stop griping about Clemson basketball. ] |
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The Greg Marshall I know (for over 30 years) despises Clemson so much he might just come to Clemson to lose games on purpose. His personality would never fit in at Clemson.
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110%er [5977]
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Re: Please stop griping about Clemson basketball.
Feb 25, 2016, 10:59 PM
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Really? You mean like the way Vince Dooley hated UGA growing up and playing at their rival Auburn? Or the way Pat Dye hated Auburn while playing at UGA? Coaching is a job and most coaches view it that way and I'm sure Gregg Marshall would also, but give him call and ask him about the job and let us know what he says.
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All-In [43999]
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I'm not advocating that we pay Brownell more.
Feb 25, 2016, 9:42 PM
[ in reply to Re: Please stop griping about Clemson basketball. ] |
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He is paid a fair salary. I did feel it was important to point out that he has performed well in relation to his ACC peers when you look at his salary as well as what Clemson spends on basketball.
My overall point is that if people are dissatisfied with Clemson basketball and want to get another coach, they better be willing to pay up. This whole notion that we can continue to be cheapskates when it comes to basketball and expect a consistent winner is ludicrous.
Be willing to make basketball more of a priority, or shut up.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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why were we not screaming about this when Barnes and OP
Feb 25, 2016, 9:49 PM
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were here?
I know...
because they were winning
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110%er [7718]
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Re: why were we not screaming about this when Barnes and OP
Feb 27, 2016, 8:00 PM
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Did you miss the part about where we just spent a bunch of money on facilities OPs first year?
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Hall of Famer [22381]
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Sounds like we need an energetic, charismatic, confident
Feb 25, 2016, 8:45 PM
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leader who can sell recruits, fans and boosters on the future of Clemson basketball.
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All-In [43999]
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Sounds great!
Feb 25, 2016, 9:44 PM
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Are you willing to pay him well and have an AD who consistently supports basketball so that he not only has the tools to be successful, but is also likely to stay for a long time?
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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did we have those things under the last guy
Feb 25, 2016, 9:54 PM
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and before you say "exactly, and that's why he's not here anymore"....
at least he got the job done.... so you cannot use that same argument with BB. IT DOES NOT APPLY
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110%er [7718]
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Re: did we have those things under the last guy
Feb 27, 2016, 8:01 PM
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We spent a decent amount on facilities when he first got here.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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what does that have to do with anything?
Feb 27, 2016, 8:08 PM
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the argument here is if BB has done enough to deserve more time (OP and Barnes only come up when others say you can't win here)
I hope we go on a miraculous run to end the season... but minus that happening... 5 in a row with no NCAAT is a problem
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110%er [7718]
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Re: what does that have to do with anything?
Feb 27, 2016, 8:13 PM
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You asked "Did we have those things with the previous guy"
I simply answered your question.
You seem to only like arguments if they fit your agenda.
I am not defending Brownell. I have stated that a change needs to be made. You simply refuse to hear and thing that goes against your agenda it is getting sad.
Fact is when OP started out facilities weren't bottom of the league by the time he left they were.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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no... the things Judge asked for we did not have
Feb 27, 2016, 8:15 PM
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under the last guy...
or he wouldn't have left for more money somewhere else. Upgrade? Sure we did...
but the things Judge is talking about we did not have under OP, and we still won. I have a hard time buying the fact that we would have less now, than back then
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Orange Blooded [2217]
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so if we pay BB more we will be better***
Feb 25, 2016, 8:47 PM
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All-In [43999]
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No, but we better be sure
Feb 25, 2016, 9:46 PM
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that we are giving whoever our coach is all of the tools he needs to be successful. Brownell's contract is very reasonable. Renovating Littlejohn is a great move. Will we keep up our facilities though? They have been way, way behind for a long time.
When we hire our next coach, will we pay to get a good one or continue our usual strategy of getting an up-and-comer and hope he can grow into the job at Clemson?
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All-In [36449]
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TL:DR
Feb 25, 2016, 8:56 PM
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Got about half way. From what I read seems like we are getting a steal with Brownlee.
Go Tigers!
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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Dear Judge - if you take away the whining, then what?
Feb 25, 2016, 9:56 PM
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it's what they do;
they're Geico.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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here is your chance to provide your own facts to
Feb 25, 2016, 9:58 PM
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dispute the facts on the table...
Please... go ahead, with no personal attacks... and lay out the facts of why, if we miss the NCAAT this year, Brownell should be back.
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110%er [7114]
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From looking at your numbers...
Feb 25, 2016, 9:57 PM
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it appears that Notre Dame and Miami pay their coaches less. They're traditional football schools, they pay their coaches LESS than we pay a coach who is pretty clearly never going to amount to anything here, yet they are both ranked in the top 25 right now. Miami is 2nd in the ACC standings right now. They both actually have pretty good basketball programs. If it's all about the $$, how can that be?
Could it be that, for some reason, you just want to ride the Brownell ship all the way down? Is he your bud or something? Were you a big Tommy Bowden supporter too?
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All-In [43999]
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Did you read my post?!?
Feb 26, 2016, 12:01 AM
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I didn't say money is everything. What I did say is although there are occasionally exceptions, teams who spend more money on basketball typically have more successful programs.
Clemson fans like to pat themselves on the back for being such great football fans and not caring much about any other sport, but it is not a good look when you are trying to recruit better and ultimately hire a good coach.
We never get our first choice when we sign recruits or hire coaches.
As I have said before, I like Brownell but will support firing him after this season if I know Clemson will up the ante and make a stronger commitment to basketball. The question is, will we?
If not, it's silly to expect to win more when we historically cannot sustain success beyond a few good seasons in a row.
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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the problem is that Brownell hasn't given us any of these
Feb 26, 2016, 12:05 AM
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"good seasons in a row" you speak of... and we're in year 6...
that's the problem
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All-In [43999]
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Please, for the love of all things good, STOP.
Feb 26, 2016, 12:36 AM
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You keep posting the same thing, over and over. You keep making points to support Purnell and against Brownell. I'm not sure who you are arguing with, but none of my posts in this thread have argued that Brownell has been as successful as Purnell. He clearly hasn't.
I'm not saying that Brownell shouldn't be held accountable. Rather, I AM SAYING THAT CLEMSON NEEDS TO BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE!!
The entire premise of my original post is that Clemson fans whine about not having a better basketball team, yet when given the opportunity to fund basketball at a higher level or actually devote themselves to being a serious basketball fan, they choke. They say that we're a football school, nota basketball school. They say that we will never recruit like Duke and UNC, and should be happy making the NCAA Tournament once every few years.
If those fans want more success in basketball, then be willing to spend more. If not, then it's silly to expect to get a great coach who can work miracles here, and who is committed to Clemson for the long run. I know that for a fact, because we have never consistently supported basketball to the point that we've had that.
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110%er [7114]
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All-In [43999]
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Thanks for the personal attacks.
Feb 27, 2016, 7:55 PM
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Way to stay classy, Flying Tiger.
There is obviously not a 100% correlation between spending more on a coach and winning more games, but we know that the teams who spend more have a MUCH better chance of having a successful basketball program.
I'm glad you were able to interpret the data and inform all of us that there are coaches making less money than Brownell who are more successful. Nobody is disputing this fact. Does that mean we are paying him too much, or they are paying him too little? By the same token, I can point out coaches on that list who make more than Brownell who are not as successful as he is.
I still think you are missing the overall point though. I'm not arguing for Brownell to be our coach forever or for him to be paid more. I am arguing for Clemson to devote more to basketball in general.
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All-TigerNet [14451]
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Re: Thanks for the personal attacks.
Feb 27, 2016, 8:04 PM
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judge you have to realize old flying and his ilk only come on this board when we are losing. they take great pride in us losing. he does it in baseball also. when tech took the lead the other night in comes flying. no where to be found before that. he seems to have all the answers when in reality he brings nothing to the table but complaints. so easy to complain when things are not going well. he is one of the best at it.
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110%er [7718]
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Re: Thanks for the personal attacks.
Feb 27, 2016, 8:06 PM
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+1
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Orange Blooded [4974]
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Re: From looking at your numbers...
Feb 27, 2016, 8:31 PM
[ in reply to From looking at your numbers... ] |
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Brownell may not be the answer but clemson is a lot harder job in Miami and Notre Dame for a multitude of reasons if you want someone to come in here and win big you better get a big name coach or you better get lucky and catch lightning in a bottle with an unknown black we apparently tried to do with Brownell.
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Orange Blooded [4974]
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Re: From looking at your numbers...
Feb 27, 2016, 8:32 PM
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. Like not black sorry
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All-TigerNet [10901]
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CU Guru [1806]
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I just miss being a member of Oliver Purnell's Posse...
Feb 25, 2016, 10:05 PM
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Coolest Student section in basketball at the time.
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CU Guru [1679]
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Re: Please stop griping about Clemson basketball.
Feb 25, 2016, 10:24 PM
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I have long been a believer that Clemson will never achieve much beyond mediocrity in basketball unless we go out and hire a "big name" coach. Right now, I don't even know who that coach would be. But, it would have to be in the order of Carolina hiring Frank McGuire in the 60's. That is what it will take. Brad Brownell is a good coach. But, he will not be able to overcome the basketball quagmire that Clemson has become. I'm talking big name. BIG....
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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people can say what they want... but getting Frank Martin
Feb 25, 2016, 10:27 PM
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was huge for UCS...
He was "big" name, and had some very good Kansas St. teams.
If they can get someone like him, so can Clemson.
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CU Guru [1627]
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Re: Please stop griping about Clemson basketball.
Feb 26, 2016, 1:27 AM
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You just griped about fans griping... Quit griping "judge"
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Scout Team [173]
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Re: Please stop griping about Clemson basketball.
Feb 26, 2016, 5:17 AM
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Great post. Just curious what Roy Williams makes at Carolina. This years team has had stretches of really good play and bad stretches as well. Bottom line Coach BB is a good coach. If I were making a decision to change or not to change the question would be who is better at this level of pay and commitment to the program?
Not to compare Coach K to Coach BB but Duke showed a lot of patience. Maybe with better facilities as with the classic line in Field of Dreams "If you build it they will come" (players and fans alike)
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Scout Team [171]
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Re: Please stop griping about Clemson basketball.
Feb 26, 2016, 8:44 AM
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Verifying Ole Roy's salary is difficult but Cameron Indoor Stadium was updated in 1988 to 9300 seats and opened in 1940. Maybe we should have updated Fike Field House.
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Head Coach [757]
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Yes, and bring back the Country Gentleman!***
Feb 26, 2016, 11:16 AM
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Legend [15503]
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Re: Yes, and bring back the Country Gentleman!***
Feb 27, 2016, 7:49 AM
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I always thought that was cool, too.
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All-In [43999]
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I think it remains to be seen if Brownell can win on a level
Feb 28, 2016, 2:54 PM
[ in reply to Re: Please stop griping about Clemson basketball. ] |
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playing field. Purnell was more successful than Brownell, but he also benefited from a just renovated Littlejohn and new practice facility. While those weren't ideal facilities compared to what they could have been, they were new and shiny and showed Clemson's commitment to basketball. Those facilities became outdated by the time Brownell took over, and the new upgrades have been sorely needed.
To those who tend to have knee-jerk reactions to sentiments like this, I am NOT excusing Brownell's inability to make the NCAA Tournament since year one. Yes, I understand we have had other coaches more successful. But regardless, it is not unreasonable to give him better facilities and better support and see what he can do.
Remember, Dabo only started recruiting at a high level and winning at a high level when we pumped money into facilities.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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Wait, so CBB makes more money than Mike Brey?!?!?
Feb 26, 2016, 8:51 AM
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Now I'm even more pizzed off!
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110%er [7157]
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So let's upgrade facilities...oh wait.
Feb 27, 2016, 8:31 AM
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Everyone needs to give this team a break. They played all season as orphans with an artificial home court 45 mins away. Yes they were successful there so it wasn't a huge problem. But having that new sleek home, good players coming in next year and right on the cusp of making the tourney. If jaron comes back I think we just might get it done. Help is on the way.
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Orange Blooded [2332]
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Re: Please stop griping about Clemson basketball.
Feb 27, 2016, 9:46 PM
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I read all replies! I have followed Tiger BB since Tates Locke. Coach Brownell has in many ways been the "Tommy Bowden" of his sport. He came into a mess, lost staff which hurt recruiting, did not understand the nature of his competition, and lacked facilities!
I too have been disappointed, but to provide perspective he has indeed not been given the overall support needed until LJ was finally renovated properly. If Clemson fails to make the NIT this post-season then ask for Brownell to resign or be reassigned. Otherwise give his staff next season to make the NCAA or else. Do not extend his contract and let him know his options. Gregg Marshall is not leaving his current job based upon what I've read within the last because his school is basketball oriented and he can easily recruit to it. It is like Clemson toward football by comparison.
Change in both basketball programs is up to administration and the trustees. Let them know your feelings one way or the other.
Go Tigers!
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All-TigerNet [12942]
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maybe there does need to be more support... but you lose me
Feb 27, 2016, 9:49 PM
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at "he walked into a mess"
how?
and how is it relevant 6 years later?
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Orange Blooded [2565]
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Re: Please stop griping about Clemson basketball.
Feb 28, 2016, 3:26 PM
[ in reply to Re: Please stop griping about Clemson basketball. ] |
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Both basketball programs in Tiger Town need improvement and that is not even debatable. Brownell inherited a soft situation when OP left with zero recruits on the board for the following season and
not a treasure of talent on hand. OP and the then AD had a collision which the AD prevailed and Clemson lost. If you think OP was a great one, folks, check his overall success at DePaul before he got yanked for a repeat coach there. Chicago, N. Indiana and Illinois as well as the Milwaukee area are prime recruiting grounds for hot shot HS players. DePaul did not get appreciably better under OP even in that domain.
Brownell can coach but he has had lapses and this last 6 games have been proof of that. Somewhere in the schemes they are using--the current roster cannot execute or WILL NOT! Holmes has improved over the season for the Tigers; Roper has declined over the same period and Grantham is unpredictable. Nnoko is a fouling machine which is the result of limited exposure to basketball as a younger guy.
What we have to realize is that there are "no gimmes" in ACC on the opponents' home courts. My take is that the assistant coaches could be suspect in this program even though two have gone on to take HC positions while Brownell has been at Clemson. I believe Brad will be able to recruit better with a renovated LJ arena. We will still not be in the mix for many of the blue chippers who are in the mix with UK/KU/Duke or UNC. Notice how many of the teams are playing with transfers (& Brownell has a couple now). I Brad realizes they have left wins on the courts @ VT, GT and even NCSU. We may even leave more with this years' team. But next year they have got to rise closer to the top of league play.
The ladies program must start at square #1 but we could employ Jim Davis to advise the coach.
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CU Guru [1898]
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Judge - I liked your post. But in what ways should
Feb 28, 2016, 12:29 AM
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the AD allocate more to the basketball program at Clemson? The renovation of Littlejohn is a major allocation. I'm not sniping at you - just give us some ideas of how the AD can give more support.
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All-In [43999]
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Thanks for saying that. A very fair question.
Feb 28, 2016, 3:07 PM
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Here are my main issues with basketball at Clemson:
1. We put money into basketball here and there, but we do not do so consistently. The new facilities will be great. They show a commitment to basketball, which is important for potential recruits (and potential new coach, if it comes to that). But will they put us on at least a somewhat level playing field with most of the other conference teams? More importantly, will we maintain the quality of those facilities, or will we look at facility improvements as a once every decade kind of thing? For the best recruits, they want to see all the bells and whistles. We have to stay on top of it.
2. We tend to do things on the cheap. The last Littlejohn renovation, while I'm sure well-intentioned, included a lot of corners being cut. I know that this current renovation has been changed a few times, and my hope is that we didn't scale back the things that matter (player locker rooms/weight room/practice facility/amenities are the most important).
Hiring of coaches is also frequently done in a cost-saving manner. Of course we don't have the funds or interest in paying a basketball coach $5 million plus a season, but I also don't think we should lower our standards by having to rely on a young up-and-comer. There are some talented young assistants out there, as well as guys who have been successful at the mid-major level, but both are huge risks at a school like Clemson. We need a coach who has succeeded on the high major level as a head coach.
3. Make it clear that basketball is a high priority at Clemson. Yes, football is our first priority and will be for our lifetimes. But basketball can certainly be much more of one. It's not just about money put into basketball, but also the perception that we are fighting that we are a football school. That rhetoric needs to be that we are a football school AND a basketball schools. Plenty of other schools do both sports well. Oklahoma is a good example of this.
An improved basketball program means we make more money for our athletic department as a whole, which benefits both sports. It only makes sense to heavily fund football and basketball, since they are the two money-making sports. Ideally, the more we make on these two main priorities, the more money we will have to not only put back into the two biggies but also a decent amount left over for other money losing sports like baseball, soccer, etc.
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All-TigerNet [10185]
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dumbest post this year..
Feb 28, 2016, 3:53 PM
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So if we pay brownlee 7 million does that mean he will call better plays and roper will hit his shots???
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All-In [43999]
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Please keep up. Your reading comprehension skills aren't good.
Feb 28, 2016, 8:19 PM
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I've stated several different times in this thread that I am not advocating that we pay Brownell more. He is paid a fair salary for his experience and results. However, if we find ourselves needing a new coach then we better increase our budget or we are left hiring yet another coach who we hope can be successful at the high major level.
Regardless of who our coach is, we can make sure we continue to offer top notch facilities. That will give whoever our coach is as many things in his favor as possible.
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Orange Blooded [4974]
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Re: dumbest post this year..
Feb 28, 2016, 11:19 PM
[ in reply to dumbest post this year.. ] |
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No what it means is if Clemson had a coach worth $7 mil/per we wouldn't pay based on our history and that's a big part of the problem.
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Orange Blooded [4974]
TigerPulse: 99%
Posts: 5276
Joined: 6/2/03
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Re: dumbest post this year..
Feb 28, 2016, 11:19 PM
[ in reply to dumbest post this year.. ] |
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No what it means is if Clemson had a coach worth $7 mil/per we wouldn't pay based on our history and that's a big part of the problem.
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