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This year, up to this point, has been a disappointment.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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This year, up to this point, has been a disappointment.
May 26, 2015, 1:20 PM
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There is plenty of reason, based on the evidence from the regular season, to expect the Tigers to be in position to win this regional, but screw it up somehow.
That said, I'm proud of this team, and I am pulling hard for us to win. I also would not be shocked if we won the regional, considering we have also shown we are capable of beating anyone, especially on the weekends.
That also said... everyone who keeps pumping this "downward trajectory" talking point has no sense of relativity and no sense of scale. Everyone is getting caught up in the frustration of the last 4-5 seasons so much that it is ruining their ability to look at Jack's entire resume. Downward trajectory is absolutely not supported by the actual end-of season rankings if traced through Jack Leggett's and Bill Wilhelm's tenures.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Clemson_Tigers_baseball_seasons
For instance, Jack Leggett is in his 22nd season. Bill Wilhelm's 23rd season saw the first year in a FIVE YEAR PLAYOFF DROUGHT. Clemson was not ranked during those 5 years. What happened after that? Clemson finished in the top 16 6 out of his last 7 years and made it back to Omaha once.
You would have to be incapable of self-awareness to think that if you are wanting Jack fired now, that you would not have been even more adamant that Bill Wilhelm should be fired back then (if you had the internet.)
What's my point? Most people are vulnerable to presentism. That is the bias towards what you are experiencing lately, which removes you from being able to make rational comparisons to other data at other times. Many here simply take the fact that they are unhappy, and that is all they need to justify calling for change. One important element of justifying change, that most here ignore, is what are the ALTERNATIVES? The few that even touch this topic pick coaches of teams who have done well over the last 5 years...like UVA and UNC and SCAR. 2 of those didn't make the tourney this year. And they don't have the LONG-TERM resume to reinforce their recent screw ups like Jack Leggett does.
This isn't really a debate on whether or not Jack is right for the future of Clemson baseball. Maybe he isn't. This is a fail of a debate that is plagued by presentism and the inability to compare Clemson's "trajectory" with other programs.
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Asst Coach [748]
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Re: This year, up to this point, has been a disappointment.
May 26, 2015, 1:32 PM
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Pretty sure Jake will be back.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: This year, up to this point, has been a disappointment.
May 26, 2015, 1:33 PM
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Downward trajectory is based on statistics and results... Those have no bias just because you dont like them doesnt change that.
Also stop with the bull #### post season comparisons between Jack and Bill. The tournament was set up COMPLETELY different and much harder to get into. It is a insult to Coach Wilhelm and a joke that you even try to make that apples to oranges comparison.
This Clemson team is not in the post season if the field was not 64 teams.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Here is a clear example of hypocrisy for all to see....
May 26, 2015, 1:38 PM
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clemtiger117 asserts that since the tournament was more difficult to get into, comparing Wilhelm's tournament record with Jack's is a waste.
HOWEVER that very same dude's biggest argument against Jack is that he fails to win the ACC as often as Bill Wilhelm. Anyone out there care to argue that the ACC has the same number of teams or the same level of competition?
Conclusion? clemtiger117 is being a big ole hypocrite because he has to to support his arguments.
My take on conference championships is that, while they are more difficult to get than they used to be, they do not matter any more beyond the superficial. I say this because coaches and the selection committee have proven that with their clearly demonstrated priorities. The national tournament has become the entire measure of success.
Stay tuned for the spin.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: Here is a clear example of hypocrisy for all to see....
May 26, 2015, 1:42 PM
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So you think finishing at the top of the ACC either regular season or tournament once in twenty years is acceptable.
Also amazing how other teams have no issue winning and finishing a top the league standings multiple times. I guess the league isnt too tough for them.
You actually think Jack Leggett is an elite coach?
Go ahead and tell me that stat doesnt matter. Fact is you can argue all you want I have stats on my side that show we have regressed in win total, dont win championships, and play poor fundamental defense.
Sorry you are unable to see these things.
Sorry you think Clemson Baseball is not capable of being a championship program.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Re: Here is a clear example of hypocrisy for all to see....
May 26, 2015, 1:48 PM
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So you think finishing at the top of the ACC either regular season or tournament once in twenty years is acceptable. No, but that's not the point I was making.
Also amazing how other teams have no issue winning and finishing a top the league standings multiple times. I guess the league isnt too tough for them. Ok? Still doesn't matter to final rankings or to the selection committee beyond an extended regular season for RPI sos, and 'last-10 game' purposes.
You actually think Jack Leggett is an elite coach? If judging by his entire resume, then he obviously is, considering less than a handful have done better. If you are asking me if he's one of the best 10 coaches in the country right this minute, I do not believe he is. But again, you seem to be straying from the point of the OP.
Sorry you think Clemson Baseball is not capable of being a championship program. Save the emo stuff. Clemson is capable of being better or worse. 90% of programs will never sniff the consistent success we had under Jack Leggett.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: Here is a clear example of hypocrisy for all to see....
May 26, 2015, 5:56 PM
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Also great job ignoring the point about Jack vs Bill when comparing post seasons.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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More hypocrisy.
May 26, 2015, 6:04 PM
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I have acknowledged that it is easier to make the tourney than it was in the past. You have not acknowledged it is much harder to win the Conference. And you have not acknowledged my point about the emphasis being on the national tournament. And you have not acknowledged my main point about judging Jack in a vacuum is worthless. Judging him against others is the only reasonable approach.
So... what else you got?
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Legend [19352]
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Re: More hypocrisy.
May 26, 2015, 6:24 PM
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Other teams that we once were a better program than have had no problem winning it multiple times.
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Orange Blooded [2508]
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that makes sense, but CWS has always been 8 teams.
May 26, 2015, 6:57 PM
[ in reply to More hypocrisy. ] |
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Final 8 is final 8. jack's made it to the same number of CWS than Bill Wilhelm. not to mention won twice as many games in omaha as his predecessor.
i get the frustration,i really do,but it is such a fallacy to think that "Jack ruined what Wilhelm" built.
how many acc teams make it to omaha now than when Wilhelm was coaching? its really two different leagues, and while i can argue that one acc championship is not enough in 20+ years, i'll take our postseason record, college world series births and wins over all but about 10-15 programs out of 295 it is not too shabby.
Jack's downfall has been two-fold, he is somewhat a victim of his on success, and his lean years coincided with the best five years in South Carolina Chicken history.
i am not saying its not time for a change, but dang,Leggett has done some amazing things here and given time, i think he can continue his success. my major point is that had Tigernet and talk radio been around during the Wilhelm era, he would have been toast a while back.
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Commissioner [989]
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He is only going to use stats that support his stance
May 26, 2015, 4:35 PM
[ in reply to Re: Here is a clear example of hypocrisy for all to see.... ] |
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All the other ones "aren't important". Championships don't matter, only making a post season appearance or finishing in the top 5 of the conference are the only stats that matter to real fans.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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There is irony and misinformation in your post.
May 26, 2015, 6:07 PM
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Irony: He is doing exactly what you are accusing me of.
Misinformation: My metric for success is how deep a team makes it in the national tournament, which is shared by coaches, the selection committee and the college baseball press. Not 'only making a post season appearance or finishing in the top 5 of the conference ' as you say.
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110%er [5434]
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Re: This year, up to this point, has been a disappointment.
May 26, 2015, 7:14 PM
[ in reply to Re: This year, up to this point, has been a disappointment. ] |
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How was it much harder back then??? Did Bill only have 7 ships to give? Did title 9 ties his hands?
That would be a big h3ll no
Message was edited by: armsb®
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All-TigerNet [10402]
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Re: This year, up to this point, has been a disappointment.
May 26, 2015, 1:45 PM
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All I know is we have not hosted or made it out the regionals in how many years? Heck we have not won a regional game and been put out by teams like Liberty. So a downward trend is for sure in place.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Please consider this response carefully.
May 26, 2015, 1:53 PM
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Under Jack Leggett, by 2010, we had been to a Super Regional or CWS 11 out of 16 years. There has never been that level of success in the history of baseball without a downward trajectory at some point.
That's the point I'm making. We were at the top, only missing a national championship, but nobody had that level of success year in and year out like we did. Nobody has ever maintained that. Not experiencing a downward trajectory following that level of play is impossible and unprecedented. People's judgment of what's to be expected is insane in this case.
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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Re: Please consider this response carefully.
May 26, 2015, 2:10 PM
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"There has never been that level of success in the history of baseball without a downward trajectory at some point."
God help us all if you people don't stop with the ridiculousness of stating crap about Jack Leggett that simply isn't true.
So let's pick one: LSU.
Between 1989 and 2009, LSU made the CWS 13 times in 21 years, won 7 SEC tournament championships, and won 6 freakin' Natty's.
Since then, they've been to the NCAA's 5 out of 6 years, won 3 conference tournament championships and 2 regular season championships, and been to the CWS 1 time.
This year? only the #2 overall seed.
And hail I could have picked on Fullerton, Miami, FSU, Florida, Texas and any other number of programs that have had great success for many years without the unending drop in winning percentage and championships that Clemson has seen the last 10 years.
Even USuCk, in their history, has been to 3 final games in addition to winning 2 Natty's.
Clemson has never even been to the final game!
Yes, Jack was successful - but to suggest that every great program has been reduced to an average of 4th to 6th in conference over the last 10 years like Clemson has is seriously BS.
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Heisman Winner [133750]
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Re: Please consider this response carefully.
May 26, 2015, 2:23 PM
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nice points. Good information. LSU owned college baseball for several years.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Your reading comprehension is failing you... I said...
May 26, 2015, 3:39 PM
[ in reply to Re: Please consider this response carefully. ] |
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no team has reached that high without having a downward trajectory at some point. Not saying Jack's resume is the best of all-time or anything close to that.
From the insane highs that LSU baseball reached in the last 90's early 2000's their win total went downward for 5 years before coming back up.
46 wins to 40 to 35 to 29 from 2004 to 2007. During that stretch they missed the NCAA tournament twice. Jack has never missed more than once. That's not to say that I'd trade our history for LSU's... not even close... but I am saying that all teams who have periods of elite success will always experience a downward trajectory at some point. And LSU fits exactly in with that.
People forget this when talking about Jack's downward trajectory. No program can sustain that level of success for 20 years without missing the tournament more than once or having a dropoff for 4 or 5 years at some point. And the ones who have been better or as good as Clemson has been for the last 20+ years consistently are less than 10. That's the definition of elite.
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Orange Blooded [3820]
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you sir are living in Neverland.....
May 26, 2015, 5:06 PM
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there's no reason to even talk to the likes of you.
You're going to say my reading comprehension is bad because you want to compare Clemson to LSU?
LSU makes the tournament 17 consecutive seasons, misses two then makes it again 7 out of 8. Let's see that's 24 out of 27, compared to Leggett's 21 out of 22. OK, that's comparable but
see LSU with 6 Natty's at a time we have none,
see LSU with 13 CWS appearances to go with our 7, and
see LSU with 10 conference championships to our 5.
And they are the #2 seed this year compared to us squeeking in?
And it's my reading comprehension. BS - you can't admit that you simply overstated all the guts and glory that is Jack Leggett. B-effin-S.
This is exactly how companies, governments, and even sports programs go bad - over time a political malignancy chokes the living crap out of any attempt at moving forward because they are scared to lose a bit of their comfort zone, ultimately dragging everyone down with them. Too often some menial personality figure is at the heart of it. I've done turn-around consulting for 25+ years so I ought to know, and I've seen it happen that way literally dozens of times.
I'm at the point of listening to this crap that I no longer give a #### whether DRad shows any compassion - cut the God-forsaken tumor out and go!
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Haha. Your reading comprehension was even worse that time.
May 26, 2015, 5:59 PM
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Why don't you try slowing down?
You're going to say my reading comprehension is bad because you want to compare Clemson to LSU?
Um... no? I said this...
That's not to say that I'd trade our history for LSU's... not even close... but I am saying that all teams who have periods of elite success will always experience a downward trajectory at some point.
and this... Not saying Jack's resume is the best of all-time or anything close to that.
So I'm not comparing LSU to Clemson except to say they are obviously much better as a program and I'm not saying Jack's best streak is close to the best of all-time. But you would need reading comprehension to figure that out.
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Legend [17786]
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Talent is there. We just need better coaching, as has been
May 26, 2015, 1:56 PM
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discussed so many times throughout the year: fundamentals are dumb mistakes are costing us games. We had the ACC pitcher of the year, we are right where we need to be talent wise
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