Topic: Players or coaches win games?
Replies: 15   Last Post: Oct 31, 2020, 8:00 AM by: under11par®
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Players or coaches win games?

Posted: Oct 30, 2020, 6:28 PM

I know you need both in reality. But just for the fun of the old conversation...

Re: Players or coaches win games?

Posted: Oct 30, 2020, 6:49 PM

Coaches who have the right players

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Posted: Oct 30, 2020, 8:15 PM

Re: Players or coaches win games?

Posted: Oct 30, 2020, 6:50 PM


Re: Players or coaches win games?

Posted: Oct 30, 2020, 6:53 PM

Players win games if they execute properly the plays called by their coaching staff.
Coaches lose games if they get out coached by the other teams players who execute properly their coaching staff game plan.

Re: Players or coaches win games?

Posted: Oct 30, 2020, 8:18 PM

Agree. Coaches win or lose close games often.

Re: Players or coaches win games?

Posted: Oct 30, 2020, 8:38 PM

I’ll give you a case in point. Last year Clemson beat UNC 21-20. I was begging Mack (the tv) to kick the extra point. I thought we had no chance against the Clemson D line going for 2. If we could get to OT anything could happen. My buddy said yeah but the better team usually wins in OT. I said I agree but sometimes the better team fumbles or misses a field goal. At least you get a chance.

Re: Players or coaches win games?

Posted: Oct 30, 2020, 8:59 PM

Do drivers or engine builders win races?

Re: Players or coaches win games?

Posted: Oct 30, 2020, 9:30 PM

In college, mostly players.

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Brad Brownell: more losses than any other coach in school history.

Re: Players or coaches win games?

Posted: Oct 30, 2020, 9:44 PM

You might be right. In an earlier post I leaned toward coaches. I played and coached in college and you have me remembering games I personally helped screw up that were not my coaches fault. Lol.

Re: Players or coaches win games?

Posted: Oct 31, 2020, 4:26 AM

No. You’re wrong. Coaching in college is more important than players. Do you want proof? Here is your proof.

Georgia has a top-five recruiting class every year they were having top 5 top 10 recruiting classes every year when Mark Rick was there and they didn’t do jack spit until they got this coach.

Florida didn’t do anything for years then Spurrier gets there and start dominating the SEC almost from day one with the talent that was already on campus.

Urban Meyer goes to Florida which was in chaos his second year they win the national championship with the players that were already on campus.

Urban Meyer goes to Ohio State when they were good but not great his second year there they win the national championship with the players and already on campus.

Alabama has great talent year in and year out but look at their history and how they have been great when they’ve had great coaches and mediocre when they had Mediocre coaches but when you look at the talent year and a year out it’s pretty much the same.

Saban won with the talent that was on campus right away. And he has built a dynasty because with that winning he was able to bring in more talent just as urban Meyer and Spurrier were able to bring in more talent. But they won immediately with the talent that was already on campus that the other coach got fired for under performing with that same talent.

Dabo gets to Clemson puts in this new program and this new Culture and we start winning. But he had to win before he started bringing in all the five star recruits. The winning led to the great recruiting that has led to the creation of the dynasty. But he built the foundation with talent that was already on campus.

In the playoff era Which started in 2014 no team has won the national championship that didn’t have four consecutive recruiting classes in the top 10. There is one exception to that rule. When we won the national championship in 2016 we Didn’t have top five recruiting classes. Our average recruiting rank per year leading into 2016 was #9. We have dominated Ohio State and Oklahoma with less talent. We are 2 & 2 against Nick Saban and Alabama but we easily could be 3 & 1 because we should’ve won in 2015 but don’t get it twisted. We had a great recruiting class last year, but until then we were not having top five recruiting classes but Alabama has been having top-five mostly top three recruiting classes for years now. Alabama and Ohio State put a lot more players into the NFL than we do. But we have been the equal to maybe even a little better than Alabama and have dominated Ohio State. And they have superior talent, they may even have technically better coaching, but we have great coaching to and we also have a culture that creates a better team in football is a team sport which is why you can have all the talent in the world but if you don’t have a great coach they can make that talent work together you’re not going to win at a high level nor a consistent level.

Look at what happen when Tommy Bowden got to Clemson we improved dramatically his first and second year. But his third year was when all of the erratic inconsistent chaos started. What was different about year three compared to years one and two? Rich Rod! In hindsight RR Was behind the success at Tulane and was behind the turnaround at Clemson the first two years but then he left and TB was it the same coach without him.

Again, look at Clemson as an example, look at our offense and how much it improved the day Chad Morris stepped on campus.

Look at how bad our defense was before we got Brent Venables. He didn’t spend years recruiting before our defense all of a sudden became a top five top 10 defense he did that almost overnight.

Speaking of Brent Venables I think anyone that wants to be logical and objective would admit if we lost Brent Venables and didn’t replace him with someone that was not as good because I think he is the best in college but if we don’t replace him with someone it’s really really good if he were to leave we’re not as dominant as we are now. The key to our success right now is more about white Brent Venables has done than anything else. But what Dabo did with the talent he inherited turn the ship around and start of the winning which allowed us to bring in more talent and win at an even higher level.

Here’s another example using Clemson of how coaching matters. We sucked at football in the 60s in early to mid 70s. And we had a lot of coaching turnover after Frank Howard retired. But the guys we had in the early to mid-70s, especially read Parker, were really good recruiters and they brought in a lot of talent but they couldn’t get that talent to win. Charlie Paul came in and we went from being a terrible program to 11-1 N could’ve played in the Orange bowl for the national championship had we been patient but we hadn’t been to a ball game in like 25 years so we excepted the bird in hand which was the gator bowl, but had we waited one more week we would’ve been in the orange bowl playing for the national championship with the talent that was on campus. N could’ve played in the Orange bowl for the national championship had we been patient but we hadn’t been to a ball game in like 25 years so we excepted the bird in hand which was the gator bowl, but had we waited one more week we would’ve been in the orange bowl playing for the national championship with the talent that was on campus. Talk to old timers around Clemson and they will tell you a lot of people felt like red Parker got yanked one year too quick. Those teams in 1977 and 1978 are still some of the most complete and talent packed teams Clemson has ever had. It’s crazy the number of NFL players that came from those teams. Despite the fact that we were terrible in the 60s and 70s but read Parker was a great recruiter and people thought if he would’ve been given one more year he could’ve gotten over the hump and won. But we will never know. I think had Parker gotten one more year we would’ve been significantly better, but not as good as we were under Charlie Pell. Then he left and immediately turned Florida into a winner with the talent that was there and by him leaving his OL coach became the head coach and we all know who that was, a good old boy named Danny Ford, who brought us our first national championship. Just like Tommy Bowden came here and did good things but without Tommy Bowden we don’t end up with Dabo! It’s really crazy how these little twists of fate have epic implications!

So, at the college level, coaching is definitely more important. Because when a guy comes in, especially nowadays with the money being so big, because back in the 70s and 80s and even a certain degree the 90s, money wasn’t running the show and coaches were given more time. It’s rare for a coach to be given the type of time that Dabo Swinney was given today. Frank Beamer did the same thing at Virginia tech. People Want to fire Beamer for years but the money wasn’t in the game back then the way it is now so he was given more time and he eventually built VT into a powerhouse. He just wasn’t able to keep them at that level of success long-term because that’s not a school that’s ever going to be able to recruit the way we can.

So in reality it’s kind of a chicken and egg situation. A coach has to win and show real improvement right away or he is not going to keep his job so he has to be a good coach with a good staff and win with the talent that’s already on campus and if he does that and can recruit then the program will get even better because he’s bringing in better talent but he has to win first to keep his job and to attract that better talent.

I’ll give you another example. Florida State has not dropped off that much in recruiting since Bobby Bowden left. In fact 24/7 went back just a couple of years ago and looked at the top 25 teams in the country and took every player on the two deep roster and found their recruiting rank the day they committed and re-ranked the top 25 based on talent. Florida State was ranked ahead of Clemson but Florida State was in chaos and we had already won our first national championship under Dabo. Now we are ahead of FSU because they have dropped off a little bit and we have gone up, but make no mistake FSU is still packed with talent but yet they suck on the football field, which is why so many people are baffled about why are they so bad despite having so much talent. And it shows once things go bad regardless of talent until someone comes along and changes The culture and is able to turn that aircraft carrier around it doesn’t matter how much talent you have!

UNC has sucked for years, but look at the year they had last year and the year they’re having this year and it’s only Mack Brown‘s second year. Now yes, he had a homerun with that quarterback coming in and being great as a freshman, but it doesn’t matter how great that kid is if he doesn’t have talent around him. But Mack Brown was able to take the talent that was already on campus plus getting that one kid and hit a homerun with him and create a tremendous amount of success right away! But guess what, that kids not there if it’s not from Mack Brown.

Look at all the talent at Texas. Texas always has plenty of talent. But they only win when they have a great coach.

Oklahoma has had as much or more success than at any time other than when Barry Switzer was there because they had a great foundation and a heck of a coach that retired, but the hot young new guy came in and did even better with the talent that was on campus!

And honestly in the NFL it’s about coaching also. Because the truth of the matter is from top to bottom the talent from one NFL team to the next is not that big. The difference between a top five NFL team and a bottom five NFL team in terms of talent is a handful of players. Often times one player, the QB. But look at what happens when the right coach comes in and takes over that talent. There’s a huge difference in talent in college from team to team but the teams that win and win by consistently do it because they have the best coaches who build the best programs and recruit the best talent but it starts with the coach. In the NFL there’s not that much variation in talent top to bottom but some teams are very very good and sometimes are very very bad. The difference is the head coach and the culture and his ability to get the most out of a handful of players that key positions.

Look at Bill Belichick. Year in and year out he loses Key players and replaces them with a bum or cast off from another team and brings them into his culture and the guy becomes a pro bowler or an MVP.

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Re: Players or coaches win games?

Posted: Oct 30, 2020, 10:31 PM

When talent levels are even then the coaches are the key to winning games. If talent levels aren't close then its obvious that players win games as talent is generally the biggest predictor of success.

Re: Players or coaches win games?

Posted: Oct 31, 2020, 4:44 AM

It is called a team effort.

Re: Players or coaches win games?

Posted: Oct 31, 2020, 4:50 AM

The most talented team in the world with a mediocre coach will lose to a team with mediocre talent and a great coach.

Great coaches come in and have immediate success with the talent already on campus. If they stay and not use that as a steppingstone to a better program they will upgrade recruiting and build a dynasty.

Look at what happens to dynasties when the coach retires. And that coach is almost always replaced with a really good coach often someone that has been an assistant in the program for years. But with that same talent all of a sudden those dynasties go to ####. They only return to there once great status when a new great coach comes in and turns things around and builds a new dynasty. But often years even decades can go in between and a revolving door of coaches despite the fact that those blue blood programs never stop recruiting at a high-level because people always expect those programs to win so they bring in tremendous amount of talent based off of their reputation alone. But they only win big when they have the right coach running the program.

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it doesn't matter who plays for Muschamp

Posted: Oct 31, 2020, 5:01 AM

they will lose. He loses more after his less talented players are playing for him.

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Posted: Oct 31, 2020, 8:00 AM

You are correct

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