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Legend [19586]
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PSU: Major punishment, a different way of looking at it
Jul 17, 2012, 9:11 AM
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Here's how I look at the PSU situation and come to my opinion that punishment beyond probation isn't neccessary.
A good question to ask yourself with these incidents of gross misconduct at a school involving sports personnel is "Could this have happened if the school's athletic dept did not exist?"
For example, lets take Miami's scandle into consideration. If Miami didn't have a football program, would there have been a booster slinging out cash and benefits to student athletes for years? Of course not. Punishing the program is neccessary.
Take USC and Reggie Bush into consideration. Could USC have given a student athlete improper benefits had the athletic dept not existed? Of course not.
USCjr: Could the coots have had student athletes living in a hotel for free or at a heavily discounted price if the athletic dept not existed? Of course not.
PSU: Could PSU (or any college) have had a pedophile on staff and active on campus and been covered up by a few bigshots to maintain their reputation without an athletic dept? Sure....absolutely. Could have been a professor (heII UGA has male prostitutes teaching there), janitor, VP, etc.
If the pedophile at PSU were the director of the Business school, should PSU say screw all you students in the business school, you get the death penalty? Or should they fire the ped. and those covering it up and save the program? Should the ncaa come in and put probation on the business program?
Case in point: This is outside of sports, outside of players, alum, boosters etc. And should remain that way.
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Legend [18133]
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Buuuuuuuuuuutttttttt........he couldn't have preyed on young
Jul 17, 2012, 9:18 AM
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boys who were attending an athletic camp and doing his thing in the athletic complex aaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnndddddd having it covered up by the head football coach without an athletic dept.
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Legend [19586]
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Re: Buuuuuuuuuuutttttttt........he couldn't have preyed on young
Jul 17, 2012, 9:21 AM
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Those are semantics. Could have been HS class college tour, in a SOB class room covered up by the SOB dean.
Still doesn't take away that it is a criminal act outside of football or sports period. The avenue used is irrelevant.
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Legend [18133]
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Re: Buuuuuuuuuuutttttttt........he couldn't have preyed on young
Jul 17, 2012, 9:58 AM
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It's still a matter of the incident having occurred within the confines of the football program and it was covered up by the football program. It went all the way to the university president. I can't see how PSU should get a reprieve for this one.
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Legend [19586]
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Re: Buuuuuuuuuuutttttttt........he couldn't have preyed on young
Jul 17, 2012, 10:29 AM
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not a repreive but not the death penalty....
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110%er [5436]
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Re: Buuuuuuuuuuutttttttt........he couldn't have preyed on young
Jul 17, 2012, 12:20 PM
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But you are going to punish the kids? The players had nothing to with this
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Legend [19586]
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Re: Buuuuuuuuuuutttttttt........he couldn't have preyed on young
Jul 17, 2012, 12:55 PM
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Not taking anything away from the players.
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Heisman Winner [119698]
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If the cover up by the Head Coach and
Jul 17, 2012, 9:19 AM
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AD because everyone probably feared going against JoPa is not reason for the Death Penalty or at least very serious penalties (Significant scholly losses, multi-year bowl bans, etc), then what is?
Also, the AD, Prez, and BOT should be liable for civil penalties by the victims!
Pretty simple to me...
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Legend [19586]
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Re: If the cover up by the Head Coach and
Jul 17, 2012, 9:23 AM
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AD and HC aren't there...who are you punishing? The perpetrator is in jail and the accessory is dead....
Who's left that benefited from any ncaa rule breaking deserving of punishment? At least with improper benefits the players are still there to be punished.....
This is a totally different situation where due process should be used, not ncaa infrations.
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All-Pro [665]
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One could very reasonably argue that Sandusky wouldn't have
Jul 17, 2012, 9:31 AM
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been able to get away with it so easily for so long had it not been for the athletic department's involvement in covering it up. There is no way to separate this from football.
They covered this up to benefit the program. The program did benefit from it, and if THE PROGRAM is not punished by the NCAA then they will have been successful. The NCAA will be rewarding them. Allow any scholarship player to transfer & all them to play immediately wherever they go, but the program needs to be punished. I think it sends a horrible message from the NCAA if they also chose to turn a blind eye to this horrific lack of institutional control.
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CU Medallion [67820]
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he used he profile of the program to lure victims
Jul 17, 2012, 9:40 AM
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he traded off his celebrity and Penn State's name
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Legend [19586]
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Re: One could very reasonably argue that Sandusky wouldn't have
Jul 17, 2012, 9:44 AM
[ in reply to One could very reasonably argue that Sandusky wouldn't have ] |
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And I'm all for probation....but the looking at this from "benefits" stand point and not a "criminal" stand point, anything beyond probation is not neccessary. USuCk got probation for lack of institutional control and PSU should as well....
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All-Pro [665]
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I'm not going to say what the punishment should, or should
Jul 17, 2012, 9:52 AM
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not be. I'll leave that to the professionals. I agree with you that they need to be involved. It also appears to be a criminal matter (or should be), but we don't know for sure that it is. Not being familiar enough with the PA Code of Laws, I can't say for sure who committed what crime. Plus, the burden of proof is high in criminal law & it may not be possible for the State to mount a strong enough case to gain a criminal conviction. I'm sure the victims will see a pretty significant payday from Penn State in the form of a financial settlement, but to expect criminal prosecution may be over-reaching.
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Heisman Winner [119698]
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Orange Blooded [4302]
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But PSU wanted to cover up the issue because it would damage
Jul 17, 2012, 9:45 AM
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their reputation and likely have a negative affect on their primary financial resource for athletics.
Using your analogy, if a Business Professor had done this, and the administration covered it up because the Business Program was responsible for bringing is significant grant money to the university and they wanted to maintain the "prestige" of the Business Program, then I assure you that whoever is responsible for overseeing the educational and accredidation side of colleges would have something to say about the matter.
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Legend [19586]
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Re: But PSU wanted to cover up the issue because it would damage
Jul 17, 2012, 10:31 AM
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Sure, but they wouldn't kill the program....the students were doing what they're supposed to be doing....
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CU Guru [1555]
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Gasp! agreement with CUATFL :-P***
Jul 17, 2012, 9:56 AM
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Amateur [46]
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why it's a major violation:
Jul 17, 2012, 10:00 AM
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Can you imagine the problems PSU would have had recruiting if this thing had exploded 12 or 15 years ago? So, everyone from the president on down didn't dare expose what was going on in fear of Paterno. And he kept right on recruiting great and building his legacy. You think this thing is all legal issues and not related to football? Think again.
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Legend [19586]
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Re: why it's a major violation:
Jul 17, 2012, 10:34 AM
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No, I never said that. I'm all for probation and maybe even less schollies....just not the death penalty or anything beyond probation (lack of tv, bowl games etc.)
Your argument is hypothetical at it's best. You're saying HAD it (the incident) came out recruiting MAY have hurt. In incidents of improper benefits recruiting goes above normal. In your hypothesis you're saying recruiting MAY have gone below normal and they benefitted by keeping it normal. Who's to know that for sure?
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Letterman [253]
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As much as I hate...
Jul 17, 2012, 10:00 AM
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...to find myself in agreement with James Carville, I did like his take on the situation on Sunday's "ABC This Week" show: Keep it out of the NCAA realm, let the football program continue to generate lots of revenue, and then stand back and watch the lawyers come pick the university clean.
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Orange Blooded [4302]
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I understand that the financial impact could likely be
Jul 17, 2012, 10:06 AM
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very significant, but I don't think the monetary penalty is sufficient.
How many people would rather pay a hefty fine/penalty rather than spending a couple of nights in jail? Most people go to court to fight traffic tickets or DUI's in hopes to get the penalty shifted to money rather than loss of privileges or even freedom.
The money damages to PSU could be extremely high, but losing something they value more than money would send a stronger message that their actions were unacceptable.
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All-In [47806]
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Agree 100%***
Jul 17, 2012, 10:19 AM
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Orange Blooded [2519]
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I agree with you, and I don't think many are considering the
Jul 17, 2012, 10:32 AM
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pandora's box of nonsense the NCAA could use this for. They are already a powermad organization, you start putting regular law enforcement within their realm of punishment, and it's gets really bad.
All they need is a precedent to justify them doing something they want to do.
Let the legal authorities handle this, punish those who broke the law. This was not done to gain an advantage on opponents. It was one sick schmuck (who should get the death penalty, imo) and a bunch of people who cared more for their image than for innocent boys.
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Legend [19586]
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Re: I agree with you, and I don't think many are considering the
Jul 17, 2012, 10:36 AM
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exactly...
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CU Guru [1321]
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Re: PSU: Major punishment, a different way of looking at it
Jul 17, 2012, 11:15 AM
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Not seeing how this is a NCAA issue. Technically, while many LAWS were broken by a sick sick man, there was nothing done by Penn State to gain an unfair advantage in anyway (unless you consider getting molested as a recruiting violation, and if you do, you're pretty sick yourself).
I'm not seeing any NCAA violations here. Yes there was a cover up, and yes it was done by the AD. But it was a cover up of criminal acts to the police, not a cover of violations by the AD to the NCAA.
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Hall of Famer [24764]
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The coverup IS the violation. But, oh well, it's okay. Right***
Jul 17, 2012, 11:29 AM
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CU Guru [1321]
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Re: The coverup IS the violation. But, oh well, it's okay. Right***
Jul 17, 2012, 11:41 AM
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Violation of what though? What NCAA rules did they break? If they broke a rule (or multiple) then punish it. Otherwise the NCAA is looking to do two things: 1, set a precedent for how much control they can exercise over an institution. And 2, Get good PR for punishing those who are still in the public eye as wrong.
God forbid some sicko did anything remotely like this at Clemson... Would you want the NCAA to be able to punish the entire school (The football program would lose massive $$, the other athletics would be bankrupt, and that would in turn cause the school as a whole to lose $$) because 3 individuals wanted to keep it quiet? Unless there's a NCAA rule they broke, I'd think the NCAA can keep their hands to themselves.
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Hall of Famer [24764]
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Ethics and morality clause of school governance. Blatant.***
Jul 17, 2012, 11:49 AM
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Legend [19586]
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which the ncaa has no governance over....***
Jul 17, 2012, 12:03 PM
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Hall of Famer [24764]
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Wrong. Read Emmert's letter to PSU from Nov 2011.***
Jul 17, 2012, 12:07 PM
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Legend [19586]
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Re: Wrong. Read Emmert's letter to PSU from Nov 2011.***
Jul 17, 2012, 12:57 PM
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Isnt that the argument? That the NCAA is trying to wield too much power? Emmert is the NCAA. I don't care what he wrote in a letter. This should not be in the ncaas hands.
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Hall of Famer [24764]
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So you're wanting PSU to leave the NCAA? They knew the law.***
Jul 17, 2012, 1:29 PM
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Legend [19586]
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Re: So you're wanting PSU to leave the NCAA? They knew the law.***
Jul 17, 2012, 1:31 PM
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You're not making any sense. PSU didn't violate any ncaa rules other than Lack of institutional control. The ncaa doesn't have any jurisdiction over a universities governance or by laws.
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Hall of Famer [24764]
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I agree. But they do have jurisdiction over LOIC. We'll see.***
Jul 17, 2012, 1:34 PM
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Legend [19586]
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Re: I agree. But they do have jurisdiction over LOIC. We'll see.***
Jul 17, 2012, 1:44 PM
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right...which i've agreed to as well as probation but not anything more....whats the problem here?
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Hall of Famer [24764]
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I don't have one. PSU should get MAJOR probation but I'm
Jul 17, 2012, 1:47 PM
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not advocating for the 'death penalty'. Probably never happen, anyway.
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Legend [19586]
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Re: I don't have one. PSU should get MAJOR probation but I'm
Jul 17, 2012, 2:05 PM
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why should they get major probation? Those who did the wrong doing aren't there anymore...what does it solve?
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Hall of Famer [24764]
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It's credibility for CFB which PSU knowingly scandalized
Jul 17, 2012, 2:23 PM
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for more than 14 years. They got caught. Time to pay. This is my last response. We obviously have different opinions. I believe I understand what your argument is and though I don't agree, it's not wholly wrong. That's just not the way it works. Just because they've 'changed' or 'done something about it' does not excuse their past transgressions. Any current players should be given the right to opt out. Coaches, too, for that matter. But PSU should pay.
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Athletic Dir [887]
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Re: Absolutely!***
Jul 17, 2012, 11:27 AM
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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I have a question?
Jul 17, 2012, 11:30 AM
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How does the NCAA get involved in this and justify probation as a punishment befitting those crimes?
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Hall of Famer [24764]
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"Money, money, money.........MUUUUNNNEY!!!"***
Jul 17, 2012, 11:51 AM
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Legend [19586]
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Re: I have a question?
Jul 17, 2012, 12:03 PM
[ in reply to I have a question? ] |
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lack of instutitional control....
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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i have no idea. he protected a friend, the university
Jul 17, 2012, 12:23 PM
[ in reply to I have a question? ] |
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helped. rot in hell if they should, because only gawd knows the depth of these crimes against humanity.
the nc2a will do like every king that ever stood back while others did the work, then have their turn at standing over the slayed dragon for their pr shot.
at minimum, the ncsa will fashion a statement expanding the breadth of their domain; psu and the world will watch.
it's ridiculous on a level becoming these new united states.
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Hall of Famer [24764]
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it's ridiculous on a level becoming these new united states.
Jul 17, 2012, 12:36 PM
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That's precisely the culture exhibited by the PSU 1%ers. They were above it all.
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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history is littered with cover ups.
Jul 17, 2012, 12:46 PM
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construeing this as an nc2a violation is more intune with internet vigilantism.
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Hall of Famer [24764]
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Posted numerous times. Lack of Institutional Control. Done.***
Jul 17, 2012, 12:53 PM
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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in no way should this fall under the nc2a's purview and this
Jul 17, 2012, 1:19 PM
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notion of using LIC is exactly what i was referring to previously.
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Hall of Famer [24764]
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PSU isn't in the NCAA? Since when?***
Jul 17, 2012, 1:30 PM
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Legend [19586]
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Re: PSU isn't in the NCAA? Since when?***
Jul 17, 2012, 1:32 PM
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SOLOS, no one is saying PSU isn't in the ncaa....show me where the ncaa has jurisdiction over the matter at hand or "Ethics and morality clause of school governance" as you put it?
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Hall of Famer [24764]
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Legend [19586]
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Re: You read for yourself. Not my problem. PSU's.
Jul 17, 2012, 1:46 PM
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And the letter cites LOIC...as we've been discussing and agreeing to the entire time. I'm not sure what you're debating....
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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not a question of can or could, it's a question of should &
Jul 17, 2012, 1:48 PM
[ in reply to You read for yourself. Not my problem. PSU's. ] |
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they should stay out of it.
i hope psu sues the nc2a into the stone age if sanctions result.
next thing you know, scar will lose 2 schollies for the qb coach pissing the sidewalk.
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Hall of Famer [24764]
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The worst CFB scandal (at least in my lifetime) and you say
Jul 17, 2012, 2:04 PM
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that the NCAA should just ignore it. Isn't that what caused the problem in the first place? If the NCAA is to maintain ANY sense of credibility, that have to act on something as grave and vile as this. PSU had their chance and their people elected to look the other way. With something like this, you don't get a mulligan. Take your punishment and move on. It was bad choices by a bunch of elitists who didn't give a crap about the children and only about their image and their money. Maybe PSU can sue them and recoup some of their losses. I'm sure they'll need all the help they can get, even it's with buying a judge.
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Legend [19586]
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Re: The worst CFB scandal (at least in my lifetime) and you say
Jul 17, 2012, 2:06 PM
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It's not a football scandle....it's a criminal scandle...had ZERO to do with football. Those involved were simply employed on the football staff. The crimes had nothing to do with football. Just an independent variable.
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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osu was a football scandal, smu was a football scandal, this
Jul 17, 2012, 2:18 PM
[ in reply to The worst CFB scandal (at least in my lifetime) and you say ] |
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is criminal involving employees of psu some of which happen to work within the athletic department.
if the commonwealth of pennsylvania or even the fed were to shut down PSU for 2 years, i would have less of an issue.
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Orange Blooded [2213]
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Hall of Famer [24764]
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Back to reality.***
Jul 17, 2012, 2:25 PM
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Heisman Winner [108390]
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depends on the grounds. if you don't think the nc2a, should
Jul 17, 2012, 2:26 PM
[ in reply to If PSU sued the NCAA over this.... ] |
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they find grounds to act, will try to negotiate an agreable list of sanctions with psu, i think you are shortsighted.
if they can't come to an agreement, the nc2a will have a choice. their power has been checked recently already. i doubt for one moment that psu would sit still should something akin to the death penalty result from a sanctioning body that i'm sure psu feels shouldn't be involved.
psu has already voted to not address the statue at this time no?
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