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Re: Ole Miss basketball players kneel in response to Confederacy Rally...thoughts?
Feb 25, 2019, 1:24 PM
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Does it really matter either way what they do?
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All-In [26968]
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Same as before...
Feb 25, 2019, 1:26 PM
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I wouldn't do it, but it doesn't bother me. Good for them doing what they thing is the right thing to do. Let's take a moment to pause and think if there is any way we are somehow contributing to someone else wanting to kneel during the anthem, and if there is, correct it.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: Ole Miss basketball players kneel in response to Confederacy Rally...thoughts?
Feb 25, 2019, 2:04 PM
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I shouldn't have to explain to an American why protest is appropriate.
It needs no more a defense than going to the grocery store does.
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CU Medallion [59974]
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Re: Ole Miss basketball players kneel in response to Confederacy Rally...thoughts?
Feb 25, 2019, 2:09 PM
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In this instance. It directly effect them and some of their families. Its in their community and they are college kids, what else are they supposed to do? I dont mind it.
Now millionaire pro athletes can make a difference with their pay checks and influence in other ways and all they are doing is politically motivated and selfish.
These kids are calling out a specific happening close to home and denouncing it. All players probably should have knelt and made a stand.
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Legend [15730]
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Thanks Manac. Good effort to address the question.
Feb 25, 2019, 2:24 PM
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Just trying to get my head around the statement. “I object to the Confederacy Rally happening near or on my campus...therefore...what?” Why is kneeling during the national anthem the way you represent that? When Kap does (or did) it, the statement was specific - “I don’t like this, and until the situation changes to some unspecified degree, I do not respect this country.” So kneeling during the playing of the national anthem made sense. Are these players saying they don’t respect this country until there are no more Confederate Rallies? I mean, my feeling on Kap are pretty well established, but at least his was with regard to reform of an authority organization. Do these players want the American government to do something about these Confederate Rallies?
As always, this is not about the players rights, which are not in question.
I just don’t think it’s appropriate to use a symbol of respect for our nation as a punching bag for anything you don’t like. I think it overplays your hand and undermines your statement. It also probably does nothing to diminish these Congederacy Rallies (and disclaimer: i’m not sure exactly what that entails). Even the quote from one of the players...”we just didn’t want him to be alone”. What a small thing you make of showing respect for the country when you see a teammate taking a knee and feel he should have company.
Good thoughts though. Appreciate it.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Thanks Manac. Good effort to address the question.
Feb 25, 2019, 2:30 PM
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It's kind of minor in a way compared to what Trump has done. Trump sided with the Russians over our intelligence agencies on an international stage. I am not sure patriotism even matters anymore. I think it's a free for all now. I am not sure it's USA first anymore. I think these dudes are looking out for their best interests. It's who we are now. Does patriotism matter anymore?
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All-In [42021]
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Re: Thanks Manac. Good effort to address the question.
Feb 25, 2019, 2:50 PM
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We also have a president who gives solace to these groups. So while directly protesting the anthem may be an odd way to protest him and the government, I get it.
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All-In [26676]
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CU Guru [1405]
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Legend [15730]
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That isn’t an exact quote. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.
Feb 25, 2019, 2:52 PM
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http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000691077/article/colin-kaepernick-explains-why-he-sat-during-national-anthem
I got the idea that he kneels to show his lack of respect for this country by this:
"I am not going to stand up to show pride in a flag for a country that oppresses black people and people of color," Kaepernick told NFL Media in an exclusive interview after the game. "To me, this is bigger than football and it would be selfish on my part to look the other way. There are bodies in the street and people getting paid leave and getting away with murder."
The part about the unspecified changes references the fact that I never heard what the guy wanted and from whom.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: That isn’t an exact quote. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.
Feb 25, 2019, 3:16 PM
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Ok, so you don't know what he wanted. If he's against police violence, couldn't it be reasonably assumed that he wants that to stop? And I think it's also reasonable to see that the direct action he expects from his protest is simply awareness of the issue. Awareness has a massive impact. People who wear pink ribbons in October aren't looking to cure breast cancer themselves.
Could it be that your failure to hear what he wants is your failing and not his?
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Legend [15730]
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So, I didn’t expect a thread in which I said that at least
Feb 25, 2019, 3:45 PM
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Kap’s protest aligned to his position would turn into an attack on my position with regard to Kap’s protest, but...
“Ok, so you don't know what he wanted.”
Correct. That’s what I said. No one did.
“If he's against police violence, couldn't it be reasonably assumed that he wants that to stop? ”
Reasonable in the same way I’d like to buy the world a Coke. He said, in effect, that he doesn’t respect this country. I am saying that I never understood what would make him respect it. If his position was “I will never respect America unless there are no more incidents of police misconduct,” then that’s fine but he’ll never respect America. In a country of 327 million citizens and 400,000 cops, there will always be bad apples. I guess that wouldn’t surprise me. Protesting the world because it isn’t perfect seems to be more and more common.
“And I think it's also reasonable to see that the direct action he expects from his protest is simply awareness of the issue. Awareness has a massive impact. People who wear pink ribbons in October aren't looking to cure breast cancer themselves. ”
I’m really talking about what would make him say “I now respect America.” Could we achieve some measurable level of awareness that he would start respecting this country? So what was it? Raising awareness or eliminating all police misconduct?
“Could it be that your failure to hear what he wants is your failing and not his?”
Sure. Could be.
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CU Guru [1405]
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Re: So, I didn’t expect a thread in which I said that at least
Feb 25, 2019, 4:57 PM
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I want really attacking your position, but it's out there on an open forum, so I responded.
As for Kaep, if he honestly believes people who share his skin tone are targeted by police (the government), why isn't that a reasonable thing to protest? I certainly would if I believed that.
Anyway, thanks for actually discussing it instead of just hurling insults. This board needs more Swarleys and fewer Teslas.
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All-In [28802]
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What's interesting is that many Kap supporters...
Feb 25, 2019, 5:09 PM
[ in reply to So, I didn’t expect a thread in which I said that at least ] |
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actually misconstrue what he and Black Lives Matter actually believe, because the movement wouldn't be as broadly appealing if their radicalism were more in the spotlight. Once what Kap was doing went mainstream, it became entirely about certain instances of violence involving police, rather than about racist institutions, structures, and history. So you saw pieces being written about the corporatization of the original message, and the same time you saw people defending the protest along the opposite line.
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All-In [26968]
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1. Did you know there was a "white nationalist" rally at
Feb 25, 2019, 3:37 PM
[ in reply to Thanks Manac. Good effort to address the question. ] |
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the campus that day?
2. How did you know that?
The answer to these two questions tells you why the kneeling could have been important.
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Legend [15730]
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1).Are you using White Nationalist as a synonym
Feb 25, 2019, 3:51 PM
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for Confederate Rally? I had not seen that term used yet to describe the activities on or near campus.
But no, that would not change my confusion on the action. They are protesting America because of these rallies.
2) How did I know what? About the Rallies? It was discussed in the article I linked.
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All-In [28802]
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His point is that their protest raised awareness of it
Feb 25, 2019, 4:50 PM
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Unfortunately, that's going to be the measuring stick for whether a particular protest action was a good one or not. It doesn't matter how absurd it actually was.
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All-In [26968]
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I apologize...
Feb 26, 2019, 6:28 AM
[ in reply to 1).Are you using White Nationalist as a synonym ] |
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I did not read up on the content of the actual rally, and was using a term I saw used elsewhere. Please forgive my ignorance.
And yes, cam is correct. The point in me asking the two questions, together, is that the reason you know about the rally is because the players knelt.
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All-In [28802]
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Yes, exactly
Feb 25, 2019, 4:48 PM
[ in reply to Thanks Manac. Good effort to address the question. ] |
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Kap's protest at least sort of made sense because his politics were radical. Protesting this, as if the US didn't fight against the Confederacy, makes no sense at all. It's basically taking kneeling in public for symbols of our country as a default way of registering your disagreement with anything going in the country.
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All-In [42021]
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Can you explain how it's an inappropriate action?
Feb 25, 2019, 2:47 PM
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Am I stepping out of bounds by assuming that the nature of your post insinuates they should be punished?
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Legend [15730]
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I explain my thoughts in my response to Manac and I don’t
Feb 25, 2019, 2:56 PM
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know what you mean by “stepping out of bounds.” My comments had nothing to do with repercussions.
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All-In [42021]
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Re: I explain my thoughts in my response to Manac and I don’t
Feb 25, 2019, 2:58 PM
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I asked if I was stepping out of bounds, as if assuming too much. I also hadn't read your reply to Manac yet. So I apologize for assuming.
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All-In [42021]
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And also a little bit of light on Ole Miss iin all of this
Feb 25, 2019, 2:54 PM
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A good friend of mine who works at Ole Miss was close to this story. This comes also less than a year after one of the school's biggest donors and the namesake of their journalism building, Ed Meek, posted some very racially charged statements and pictures online (basically two pics of black female students out having a good time and citing them as the reason Ole Miss's culture was declining). The school didn't do the best job of handling Meek and the situation.
Racial tensions are a bit high there right now. But it's Ole Miss, so I don't reckon that's the most surprising thing in the world?
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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I don't mind it at all in this particular case.
Feb 25, 2019, 3:36 PM
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It is a little odd that they are protesting an anthem to the flag that defeated the confederate flag... in order to protest the confederate flag.... so I mean... that's odd.
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Oculus Spirit [83000]
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It seems strange to protest during the national anthem
Feb 25, 2019, 4:20 PM
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because it was the U.S. that defeated the confederacy and ended slavery.
At the same time, they get the most publicity for their cause by doing it during the anthem.
So, as long as they make it clear that they are protesting in response to the pro-confederacy rally and not against the U.S., I say go for it.
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Legend [15730]
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It is the “bang for your buck” argument that most
Feb 25, 2019, 4:38 PM
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disappoints me. It turns respect for the country into a convenient tool for getting your message out. I don’t agree with this protest if you’re angry at the country, but if your feelings toward the country are beside the fact, that’s worse. Next you’re wearing a Kellogg’s cornflakes shirt to make a few extra bucks while you’re singing the anthem or finishing with “land of the freeeeee...and the home of the McRiiiiiiiib”. What’s the difference? It was just an opportunity for as many people as possible to hear what you had to say.
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All-In [28802]
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Right, so couldn't/shouldn't we all kneel for the anthem?
Feb 25, 2019, 4:54 PM
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Doesn't everybody have some sort of important disagreement with US policy or history? You should only do this kind of protest if you connect whatever your grievance is with the fundamentals of the US. If you believe we need to fundamentally transform the US because American ideals are fundamentally corrupt, then it makes sense to not show respect to the anthem and flag. But if you believe that American ideals can encompass whatever changes you mean to make, however flawed present reality is, then you still have reason to respect American symbols. Simply being able to get attention for whatever it is you want attention for isn't a reason to make a radical gesture.
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Legend [18003]
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some of the players knelt during "land of the free"
Feb 25, 2019, 5:21 PM
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which I think is more appropriate.
However, I don't see kneeling during the anthem as a "radical gesture" considering most people watching at home are sitting while watching (if it's being televised at all) so how "radical" of a gesture could kneeling really be? (Also, remember that Kaep was sitting during the anthem, but as a compromise agreed to the idea to kneel instead to show more respect.)
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All-In [28802]
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It's arguable, sure
Feb 25, 2019, 5:37 PM
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But it's clear that Kap originally sat to either show disrespect or to avoid showing respect. Somebody who believes in reform can show respect to something they think is in need of reform. Somebody radical can't show respect because they believe their differences with whatever they're being asked to respect are fundamental. I think that was explicit with Kaepernick, but probably not intended by others who simply went along either to support Kap or because they believed what the protest was about was simply opposing certain instances of police violence.
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Legend [18003]
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I agree it's arguable...
Feb 25, 2019, 6:08 PM
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Kap would argue that the ones creating the injustices in the country (his opinion) are not showing respect for the country which is what his actions were intended to bring awareness to, right? (This is why kneeling during just the "land of the free" part would be a better and more precise way to show dissatisfaction, imo)
Doesn't the fact that Kap changed how he protested, to take the suggestion of the Army vet, then prove that he isn't taking a radical approach by your very definition?
I still can't comprehend how kneeling during the national anthem has become such a huge story, it mind-blowing.
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All-In [26968]
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Good point...probably 80% of the time I hear the anthem
Feb 26, 2019, 6:38 AM
[ in reply to some of the players knelt during "land of the free" ] |
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I don't stand up. The only time I do so is if I'm in public in the actual location that the anthem is being performed.
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All-In [28802]
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This isn't a good point at all
Feb 26, 2019, 1:24 PM
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You stand up because you're in public. There's no reason to do that when you're at home, unless you're just super into it.
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All-In [26968]
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Re: This isn't a good point at all
Feb 26, 2019, 1:28 PM
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If it's just about pure "respect for country," it theoretically shouldn't matter whether you are in public or private.
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Legend [18003]
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Exactly.***
Feb 26, 2019, 2:24 PM
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All-In [28802]
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That doesn't follow
Feb 26, 2019, 2:33 PM
[ in reply to Re: This isn't a good point at all ] |
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We stand or don't stand for national symbols because they're public signs of our attitudes. If it were just about a pure attitude, then nothing public would be required at all. The idea that we need to stand any time the anthem we hear the anthem played in private is ridiculous because there's nobody there to take part in the public rite.
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All-In [26968]
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I think the entire premise that
Feb 26, 2019, 6:34 AM
[ in reply to It is the “bang for your buck” argument that most ] |
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standing for an anthem is the same thing as "respecting your country," and not standing is "disrespecting your country," is false. Just my opinion.
Also, I don't reject outright, but question whether it's true, that "respecting your country" is actually a virtue in a person. Respecting people is, but "respecting your country" seems ambiguous to me, and can take different forms at different times. Do I disrespect my country by saying my country is practicing evil in the slaughter of the unborn? It sure sounds disrespectful on its face. But I sure don't think it's a wrong thing to think.
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All-In [26968]
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Upon reflection, I think the reason I do stand for
Feb 26, 2019, 7:06 AM
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the anthem when in public, is out of respect, not for "my country," but for people. Respect for the person doing the singing/playing, and respect for the people around me who feel strongly positive about the anthem. I don't know if people would consider me right or wrong for thinking this way, but it's the truth.
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All-In [48078]
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Re: Upon reflection, I think the reason I do stand for
Feb 26, 2019, 7:23 AM
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Me too.
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All-In [28802]
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I think you're a little off, here
Feb 26, 2019, 2:30 PM
[ in reply to I think the entire premise that ] |
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First, we don't individually decide what different rites and traditions mean. Those things are decided publicly, because they're done in public. If, in your own home, you don't think you need to stand in order to show respect for some national symbol, that's fine because you're in private. But what you do in public will depend on other people's interpretations of what you do. At some point, people aren't going to believe what you say you believe about the nation unless you show some sign they can understand as a sign of respect.
On the second part, the argument isn't that taking exception to any national policy means you can't "respect the country." It's just the opposite- that having differences with national policy (or, as in the case of the Ole Miss players, literally anything going on in your community) doesn't mean you have to disrespect or not show respect to the nation. I actually agree with what you say about whether or not it's necessarily a good thing to "respect the country" no matter what, but if I say the nation itself is evil because of flaws I see in it and therefore not worthy of my respect, that's much more radical than saying it's flawed and in need of reform.
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All-In [28802]
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Hard to figure what the rally had to do with the US flag
Feb 25, 2019, 4:46 PM
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It's a shame that kneeling for the anthem seems to have become athletes preferred way to register just about any political grievance they have. It's a radical gesture to begin with, and was inappropriate for simply protesting what some saw as policy brutality against blacks. It's certainly not appropriate to protest a rally by a group that was the enemy of the US. And yet, it got attention to their cause, which is pretty much how we measure how successful a gesture is these days.
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Oculus Spirit [83000]
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All-In [28802]
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Re: Hard to figure what the rally had to do with the US flag
Feb 25, 2019, 5:34 PM
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While what was going on in 1968 was much different than today, let me also point out that the gesture made by those athletes was associated with the Black Panthers (which that article shows). The Black Panthers were an explicitly radical, left-wing organization, even if some of their goals were what we'd call good today.
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