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Oculus Spirit [93608]
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Nationalism.
Oct 24, 2018, 8:40 AM
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Nationalism | Definition of Nationalism by Merriam-Webster
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nationalism
1 : loyalty and devotion to a nation especially : a sense of national consciousness (see consciousness sense 1c) exalting one nation above all others and placing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups...
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Your media sources and those you respect for their opinions deceived you. I listened to much of Trump's speech and it didn't make me want to hang a black man. It wasn't a dog whistle and it wasn't a call to arms against minorities or anyone of any color, religion or origin.
Before he said nationalism, Trump used the term globalism, striking a distinct contrast to our previous executive administration.
You're trying again to define conservatives, republicans and independents as a basket of deplorables by saying we support racism because we believe America is the greatest nation on earth. We are doing what we believe is best for our country which is exactly what is best for all our citizens. This is what we are seeing Trump do and we support his agenda.
Millions are working and off food stamps, welfare and other soul crushing handouts. Black unemployment is at a(n) historic low, Latino and asian unemployment are also. More women are working than have worked since the mid 1900s but we are the racist who are trying to keep minorities down? Right.
You pulled this chit when Obama was in office and we lived with being called racist every day by you, the MSM and all the dem leaders. It didn't work then and it's not going to work now. We are long past the point of being sensitive to the insults and false accusations.
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110%er [5854]
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Re: Nationalism.
Oct 24, 2018, 8:56 AM
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Trump is devious. He knew what he was saying and the response it would elicit from his supporters as well as his detractors.
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Oculus Spirit [93608]
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Now I understand why my ex left me after only 30 short years
Oct 24, 2018, 9:10 AM
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I missed mind reading classes and failed the final exam. I tried and tried but I never could read minds. I'm so impressed that you went to class, took notes and crammed for the final. I always wondered who ruined the curve.
Did you cheat off of one of those talking heads on CNN, MSNBC or a NYT writer? Cause somebody would have to read a lot of minds to draw such an outrageous conclusion as that. Maybe they cheated off you? I should have sat next to you instead of that hot chick.
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110%er [6101]
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Re: Nationalism.
Oct 24, 2018, 3:30 PM
[ in reply to Re: Nationalism. ] |
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His comment was taken out of context during a comparison between globalism vs nationalism. And there's no way he COULDNT appear nationalistic. Massive influx of immigrants rather than a controlled migration rate would make anyone trying to control it appear racist, xenophobic, etc. "devious" lol, what?
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Legend [15492]
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Re: Nationalism.
Oct 24, 2018, 8:59 AM
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I have to agree with you on this one. I saw that part of his speech and he wasn't using the term 'nationalism' in the way it's been characterized in the media. He used it to emphasize he's 'for American interests'.
I'm not sure he understands that 'nationalism', in and of itself is the source of many, many wars.
He's just not a very smart man.
He's really about his own interests but he didn't use that word racially.
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Oculus Spirit [93608]
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Felix, my friend.
Oct 24, 2018, 9:19 AM
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He doesn't think like you. Neither do I. I've been accused of being a liberal here because I poke fun at Trump and disrespect some of his methods to appear to be reasonable. He isn't. He is satisfied that he knows what he's talking about because simple like-minded people know what he means.
I didn't say simple minded, I said simple, like-minded. If you watched his speech he said we are running on ###, ### 'and common sense.'
In this case it isn't just common sense. Nationalism is defined and has been defined as the MWebster dictionary example in the OP above. Your party is in self destruct mode. The more outrageous it gets the more support it loses among people who have a grain of common sense which isn't overwhelmed with emotions.
The dems did that in 2016 and got their clocks cleaned in the flyover country. Now most of the seats which can help you regain power are in the same geographical location. Dem leaders are acting like suicide bombers standing in the desert and tripping the bomb.
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110%er [6101]
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Re: Nationalism.
Oct 24, 2018, 9:37 AM
[ in reply to Re: Nationalism. ] |
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There are no "dumb" multi-billionaires in the world. He's 10 steps ahead, always.
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All-TigerNet [12851]
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I know of two. That Kardashian chick and the mega ball coot***
Oct 24, 2018, 9:42 AM
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Orange Blooded [2692]
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A little history about the America First Party - Lindbergh
Oct 24, 2018, 10:03 AM
[ in reply to Re: Nationalism. ] |
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Charles Lindbergh was part of the America First party, and was accused of being a jew-hating Nationalist because in 1939 he didn't want USA to join Britain in confronting Adolf Hitler. He was an isolationist. He didn't believe that Jewish persecution was a good enough justification to join other civilized nations, who happened to be our long time allies. He wanted to ignore the whole thing.
Had we listened to the America's First party, and simply tried to appease Japan and Germany, what do you think would have happened.
The point is that we can't pretend the outside world doesn't exist in some sort of vacuum. We have to be engaged and we have to define and protect our interests based on our values.
The freedom loving qualities I've seen most espoused on this board, and perhaps what Trump should have called himself, is not nationalist, but patriotic. Let's appreciate the difference.
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110%er [6558]
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Re: Nationalism.
Oct 25, 2018, 9:17 PM
[ in reply to Re: Nationalism. ] |
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He's just not a very smart man.
Do you really believe what you typed?
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CU Medallion [73569]
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globalists trying to make this word bad is funny
Oct 24, 2018, 9:19 AM
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USA USA USA!
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All-In [28802]
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it's had a bit of a bad reputation for a while
Oct 24, 2018, 3:36 PM
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A lot of people blame nationalism for WW1.
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CU Guru [1917]
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Re: it's had a bit of a bad reputation for a while
Oct 26, 2018, 11:57 AM
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extreme nationalism and MANY other factors
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Heisman Winner [111415]
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Re: Nationalism.
Oct 24, 2018, 10:00 AM
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if your leaders did not act like a bunch of racist, misogynistic dics, then I doubt this reputation would follow you around. But unfortunately they know this is how to get elected as a conservative in this country, play down to the lowest common denominator. Because like it or not, not all republicans are racist, but most racists are republicans.
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All-In [31857]
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tbalm's daily load of horse sheet***
Oct 24, 2018, 10:04 AM
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Heisman Winner [111415]
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All-In [31857]
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well...that's a great example of a BS claim IMO....
Oct 24, 2018, 11:47 AM
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"monkey it up" is a pretty common saying and has zero to do with race. I use that phrase all the time at work.
If you want to be irrationally hyper-sensitized, than that's on you.
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All-TigerNet [11140]
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That doesn't wash, Desantis is an intelligent guy
Oct 24, 2018, 12:05 PM
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Yale undergrad, Harvard law, JAG corps lawyer, he certainly understands the semantics involved in using a phrase like that. He didn't misspeak, he didn't goof, he's following the Trump blue print because all the old folks and rednecks in FL love it.
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All-In [31857]
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I'm sure he didn't misspeak....
Oct 24, 2018, 4:50 PM
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it's a common term and has nothing to do with racism.
It's only racist if you want to imagine that it is.
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All-TigerNet [11140]
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Say you've got a project at work and you're partnered
Oct 25, 2018, 11:18 AM
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with a dude that is black. You're responsible for the front end work and he is responsible for finishing it up. Would you hand off the project to him and be comfortable requesting that "he not monkey this up"? How do you think he would take it?
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All-In [31857]
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I say it all of the time around here...
Oct 25, 2018, 11:27 AM
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and I have black people in my organization.
Never been an issue. You know why? Because they're not idiots...they know it isn't a racial statement.
For example:
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Monkey%20it%20up
Just like my kids play monkey in the middle with black kids and every knows it has nothing to do with race.
We've gotten to the point now where because "monkey" has been used in the past as a racial slur...that any phrase with the word monkey in it...regardless of meaning or history...is now racist. That's utter BS.
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Oculus Spirit [93608]
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I'm not sure anyone here acknowledges the origin.
Oct 25, 2018, 11:42 AM
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Darwin used Aborigines to show the link between man (white) and ape. I never believe Darwin's theory because of this outrageous view. It was well known that people like me during Darwin's time ignored the science and thereby ignored the 'fact,' that blacks were the missing link.
They don't like hearing about the foundation of Darwin's theory. They avoid the origin like the plague and attack anyone who says anything to remind them of it.
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All-TigerNet [11140]
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How do you know they don't think it's a racial statement?
Oct 25, 2018, 12:12 PM
[ in reply to I say it all of the time around here... ] |
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They may harbor some resentment about it and would just rather not rock the boat by saying something. I can imagine several scenarios in my work situation, from the guy that wouldn't think anything of it, to a dude in our ATL office that would probably give me the side eye and then talk $hit about me behind my back, to my admin in NY that would fly her butt down here and call me a "dumba$$ cracker" to my face and give me a nice long lecture.
Point is, words matter. And how do you know what people think unless they are compelled to tell you?
In Desantis' case, he knew what he was doing. In a campaign that has had many steps and missteps across the racial divide, he chose the low road.
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All-In [31857]
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Well, based on other things they've spoken up...
Oct 25, 2018, 12:58 PM
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about, I can say with certainty that they aren't bothered by it.
One of the guys and I started at the company together and I know him very well. 100% sure he would tell me if he's offended by. Matter of fact, I'm pretty sure he uses the term too.
And claiming that Desantis "knew what he was doing" is unsubstantiated BS.
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Oculus Spirit [93608]
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Snowflakes now come in all colors.
Oct 25, 2018, 3:57 PM
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The outrage over the 'monkey it up,' comment didn't come from anyone getting their feelings hurt. It came from those who are promoting a race bating candidate who has used race to push himself to the top of the dem ticket in Florida.
In the debate a couple nights ago Desantis accosted him with charges of taking bribes. He took and used a free ticket to the play 'Hamilton.' He took a vacation which included a 1 grand/night week long stay at a resort in the Caribbean. Both were taken from an undercover FBI agent posing as a potential buyer of a $2 mil piece of real estate in FL.
The first thing out of his mouth was 'He thinks people like me do things like that.' Race card on the table. The MSM swoon over him and haven't acknowledged his bribery charges or the ongoing FBI investigation. He denies that the FBI is investigating him yet he took the bribes from one of their agents.
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All-TigerNet [11140]
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Nah, it comes from people in your world
Oct 25, 2018, 5:20 PM
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of lily white denial, but it's what passes for politics these days. If you can't understand how someone could interpret "monkey it up" as racially insensitive you're fooling yourself.
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All-In [31857]
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"how someone can interpret"....
Oct 26, 2018, 8:08 AM
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that there is the problem man.
It's a saying with a meaning. It's not something that needs "interpreting". Is this case, "interpreting" equating to trying to find a reason to be offended. It's horse sheet and anyone with any sense should be saying so.
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All-TigerNet [11140]
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Something that means nothing to you
Oct 26, 2018, 11:00 AM
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may mean something to another, pretty simple. Your judgement is not the benchmark by which others are allowed to think. Example, if I have a couple million bucks in the bank and the church needs two grand to help send a missionary get to Guatemala, I wouldn't think twice about strokin' them a check. However, if single mom church member with two kids making 60K/yr is looking at the same situation, unless she's extremely charitable, I doubt she funds the whole thing.
The same thing can mean different things to different people. Is that so hard to accept?
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All-In [31857]
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Sorry, but's BS...
Oct 26, 2018, 11:28 AM
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people don't get to make up their own meaning for an established turn of phrase.
Just because the phrase has "monkey" in it doesn't automatically make it racist.
If someone is offended by the phrase, it is nothing more that ignorance.
Also, the relative impact of giving isn't an example proving anything in regards to this topic.
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All-In [48811]
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I see both sides of this...
Oct 26, 2018, 11:38 AM
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on the one hand, the intention of a statement is important in assessing the meaning.
On the other, communication is a two way street and requires the speaker to anticipate what the listener is going to take away. that includes content.
To bring up Megyn Kelly, she's right in one sense, that a little white girl who loves Diana Ross and wants to be her for Halloween intends nothing racist by posing in blackface. But on the other, the historical context of blackface makes it deeply offensive to anyone who doesn't know the context.
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All-TigerNet [11140]
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Time and currency have an impact on this as well.
Oct 26, 2018, 11:59 AM
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Even back in the 90s, racial issues weren't so prevalent in everyday conversation between Jim and Joe Schmoe. Neither would've probably thought about "monkey it up" being perceived as racial. Ask the same question to John Lewis back in the 90s, I doubt he'd have answered the same. Context.
Also, what did gay mean a hundred years ago? What's it mean now?
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All-TigerNet [11140]
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So if someone disagrees with your opinion
Oct 26, 2018, 11:48 AM
[ in reply to Sorry, but's BS... ] |
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on a given topic, they are ignorant? Why does your opinion on this topic matter more than someone else's? Who makes you the final arbiter?
The word monkey in any sentence doesn't make it inherently racist. Just as you use the phrase "monkey it up" doesn't make you racist. Surely, you can see how someone could have an opinion different from your own.
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Oculus Spirit [93608]
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What do they call it when someone becomes a cast out...
Oct 26, 2018, 12:58 PM
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by those who have differing opinions? What form of government do they support? Is it one with freedom of speech, freedom of the press, gun rights and other freedoms secured by our constitution?
Is it really as subjective as opinion?
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All-TigerNet [11140]
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Sounds like you're trying to support my position. Good
Oct 26, 2018, 1:07 PM
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on ya CT88.
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Oculus Spirit [93608]
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I'm not the one throwing my connotations at you...
Oct 26, 2018, 2:14 PM
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thereby condemning you for using terms you've been around your entire life and see as harmless.
I want you to know something about me. I was the first boy in my school to dance with a black girl. Mary Jane Jordan. That was the during the winter of the year Campbell High School integrated with Rockwood High. I also kissed the first black girl in public in that little town. Kathleen Dyer, Pookie and Doug Sanders sister came to my father's funeral in 1971 at Booth's funeral home. She wept with me. MJ remains in her mother's home there on N Wilder St just a block or so from where I spent a couple years and several summers at my Grandparent's little country store. They lived at 501 N Wilder.
I ate at Jordan's house and had my butt saved by Daniel and a couple more of Mary Jane's brothers when I moved back to Rockwood sporting long hair and a Southern Florida attitude in '68. The football players and other rednecks didn't like me as much as the girls.
The only conflict I ever had with and the only calorie I've ever burnt was fighting with my neighborhood friends was over who brought the best shooter to the marble circle. Never in my life have I one time been any more prejudice toward blacks than I have toward whites.
Anyone trying to race bait me can suck my toe. I don't buy into the PC chit and the only guilt I ever bore is to God. I've never embarrassed and disgraced my family by throwing off on a black person. My Cherokee grandmother would cut my nuts off if I had.
You can take this for what it is. I either have a good memory, a good imagination or I'm completely delusional about my objectivity when it comes to dealing with snowflakes trying to tell me what I know about what I know.
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All-TigerNet [11140]
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I'm not condemning you, but attempting to
Oct 26, 2018, 3:44 PM
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show you the other side of the coin. It is a fact that some people today will interpret the phrase "monkey it up" as racially insensitive when coming from a white person (especially in the company of black people). In DeSantis' case, his association with the Alembik guy in S. FL was already a kerfluffle, so why in the #### would he use that phrase in a TV interview? He is too smart of a fellow to do it unreasonably in a political race against a black opponent.
In your case, the use of a phrase doesn't make you racist and from your background it certainly indicates the opposite. If you want to rail against PC, do it all you want to, it is a popular mantra. Times change, people change, and so do meanings of words and phrases. Miss Jordan knows you and I'm sure would not be bothered by you using "monkey it up" in conversation. But if you were having a casual lunch with her and her granddaughter and knew that she might find the phrase offensive, would you still use it?
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All-In [31857]
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Because it's not an opinion....
Oct 26, 2018, 8:56 PM
[ in reply to So if someone disagrees with your opinion ] |
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That statement has 1 specific meaning. To say otherwise shows ignorance...that's not meant as an insult it just means someone doesn't understand.
Words and phrases have specific meaning(s). One doesn't get to just redefine things to suit an opinion.
The word "big" has a meaning...I don't get to change the definition of that word just because I think it might mean something else.
"Monkey it up" means to screw up something. That's all that it has ever meant.
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Oculus Spirit [93608]
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All-TigerNet [11140]
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I know you're trolling here, congarts. It's part of what
Oct 26, 2018, 11:12 AM
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this board's about. However, you wrote a reply to Aero's situation the other day that was incredibly insightful regarding how to act in a dying person's presence and how the discomfort is more a product of self than other. Failing to understand the concept of "other" in that situation, results in our own awkwardness.
Simply applying the same concept to the phrase "monkey it up".
Peace be with you, Darwinian Publican Monkey. 
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Rock Defender [53]
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All-TigerNet [11140]
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You're probably
Oct 26, 2018, 1:05 PM
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young and like to be edgy...that's cool, I've been there too. I've voted for far more Republicans in my lifetime than Democrats, good ideas come from both sides of the spectrum, but rarely from the edges.
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All-In [48811]
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All-In [48811]
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Not implication, should have said proof
Oct 26, 2018, 11:31 AM
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meaning, he's around some shady ####, and maybe he's knee deep in it, but I don't think he's even the focus of the FBI probe.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Oculus Spirit [93608]
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I disagree.
Oct 24, 2018, 11:37 AM
[ in reply to Re: Nationalism. ] |
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Most racist are suffering white guilt. They reside on the radical left end of the democrat party. They are the loudest voices in the country right now and they are certainly voting dem if they even bother to vote.
See any blacks or minorities in this pack? I don't see any dixie flags either.
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CU Guru [1917]
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Re: Nationalism.
Oct 26, 2018, 11:58 AM
[ in reply to Re: Nationalism. ] |
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BS Democrats love minorities when they can be used for political gain.
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Orange Blooded [2692]
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Congratulations, you found a dictionary
Oct 24, 2018, 10:13 AM
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and the definition of a noun.
Now talk to me about the historical context of this noun, and why it was employed in a political rally as a dog whistle by our President.
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All-In [42023]
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Re: Nationalism.
Oct 24, 2018, 10:27 AM
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You're trying again to define conservatives, republicans and independents as a basket of deplorables by saying we support racism because we believe America is the greatest nation on earth. We are doing what we believe is best for our country which is exactly what is best for all our citizens. This is what we are seeing Trump do and we support his agenda.
Just because someone supports nationalism doesn't mean they support racism. Nationalism is dangerous. You can be patriotic and love your country. You can even think it's the best. Nationalism devolves into thinking your country is so superior that anyone else from another nation is an inferior human being.
Our human history is full of a long record of destruction and piles of bodies because people took nationalism too far. And it doesn't have to deal with race.
Also, don't use dictionary definitions of words to formulate an argument. It's bad form. But your definition does highlight the negative part of nationalism: "...lacing primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations or supranational groups..."
That's where things can get dangerous. Doesn't mean we need to embrace globalism. Let's just not make the same mistakes that led to two world wars.
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Oculus Spirit [93608]
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Re: Nationalism.
Oct 24, 2018, 11:23 AM
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I appreciate that you acknowledge that nationalism doesn't support racism or Nazism. I wish everyone did.
The nationalist movement going on here isn't causing harm. If it does I believe that most conservatives will reject any such changes.
The more the 'racist,' cries strike the ears of Americans the less sensitive America becomes to real racism. That's why Harvard is in court right now, they are committing racist act with their handling of asian candidates for acceptance into their college.
The dictionary removes all the spectacular connotations from the conversation. Imo, it's a shame to have to remind people of the actual definition of the contextual use of a particular word. When a conversation degrades to the point of our discussion on nationalism turns into racism and nazism it's time to return to denotation so we can communicate without confusion. You said so much before you brought reproach on the use of a dictionary.
You're saying there's a neutron and that an atom isn't composed of just negative and positive particles, right? I agree.
When Trump said I'm a Nationalist,' it didn't made any of the listeners want to go hang a black man, hand out a smallpox blanket an injuns, intern a japanese or enslave a chinese to build railroads. It also didn't mean we're ready to eliminate asians from the minority status just because of the conflict between other minorities and whites either.
Evidently, pnly the left wing of the dem party and MSM heard the dog whistle.
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All-In [42023]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Nationalism.
Oct 24, 2018, 3:00 PM
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I appreciate that you acknowledge that nationalism doesn't support racism or Nazism. I wish everyone did.
Of course. Those don't automatically go hand-in-hand. The extreme leftist movements also embrace nationalism. It's necessary for authoritarians to rise to power. Nationalism is a symptom of fascism. But embracing nationalism doesn't necessarily mean fascist.
The nationalist movement going on here isn't causing harm. If it does I believe that most conservatives will reject any such changes.
It never causes harm at first. It's always a gradual build until it's too late. And real conservatives may reject it, but this strange animal that is Trumpism clearly will not.
The dictionary removes all the spectacular connotations from the conversation. Imo, it's a shame to have to remind people of the actual definition of the contextual use of a particular word. When a conversation degrades to the point of our discussion on nationalism turns into racism and nazism it's time to return to denotation so we can communicate without confusion. You said so much before you brought reproach on the use of a dictionary.
It's just not considered a good approach to a debate/essay/whatever. But yes, nationalism doesn't mean racism as it is defined. It can embrace that, but it doesn't have to be the case.
When Trump said I'm a Nationalist,' it didn't made any of the listeners want to go hang a black man, hand out a smallpox blanket an injuns, intern a japanese or enslave a chinese to build railroads. It also didn't mean we're ready to eliminate asians from the minority status just because of the conflict between other minorities and whites either.
I hope it didn't, and I don't think that's what he meant. But we can look elsewhere to find Trump's racial issues other than this speech.
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Oculus Spirit [93608]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Re: Nationalism.
Oct 24, 2018, 3:20 PM
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If the nationalist movement turns racial, violent or radical you let me know and I'll swap sides. The only thing that turns me to violence is danger to my person or family.
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110%er [7187]
TigerPulse: 100%
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Oculus Spirit [93608]
TigerPulse: 100%
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So now Nationalist automatically means white nationalist?
Oct 24, 2018, 11:31 AM
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You can count the white nationalist in this country without a calculator. Do you honestly think that some minorities are stupid enough to support a White Nationalist POTUS?
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CU Guru [1917]
TigerPulse: 95%
Posts: 2141
Joined: 8/21/01
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Re: So now Nationalist automatically means white nationalist?
Oct 26, 2018, 11:59 AM
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yea the dems have done so much recently. The party of anti-free speech, antifa, ###### hats, and open borders and food stamps instead of jobs.
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All-In [26968]
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Joined: 7/6/10
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I don't have a problem with the President using the word
Oct 26, 2018, 11:36 AM
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"nationalist".
I'm not so big on the idea of the USA being "superior" to other nations. It's a nice thing to say, but is typically uttered by people who have never lived anywhere else. It's subjective, and to me, a weird thing to be "proud" of.
We don't walk around talking about how proud we are, individually, to superior to another person. So what makes doing that on a national level more acceptable?
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Rock Defender [53]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
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Re: Nationalism.
Oct 26, 2018, 11:47 AM
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Trump is smart. He knows how to communicate with his supporters while simultaneously trolling his detractors into a rabid, hysterical frenzy that makes his opponents look like idiots.
The way Trump trolls the media and the Left in a way they have never seen before. The media and the Left are used to traditional Republicans who try to win, lose, and then politely concede to the Democrats with a smile and a bow.
Trump is a new era of Republican policy makers. He sets goals, achieves them, and then trash talks his opponents while he praises his allies. Its awesome, and hilarious.
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