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1st Rounder [635]
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Universal health care/Single payer
Jun 26, 2020, 10:15 AM
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If it can be done without raising taxes to unbearable levels how many would be for it? Note to clarify, not sure it can be done without EU style rates and a VAT to boot. VAT on all goods/services in the EU range from 13%-28% dpending upon classification. DO not get me started on gas taxes to get it to $5-$6 a gallon.
Putting all that aside, maybe reality too, would it be considered a good thing? I do have a bit of experience with that type system , it does leave a lot to be desired in wait times and quality of care. Upside was never had to pull out the ol' wallet. It is a forgone conclusion for those that are uninsured or those with carp policies would fair better possibly but it would still be determined by how it is paid for in the end.
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Legend [15730]
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No.***
Jun 26, 2020, 10:17 AM
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1st Rounder [635]
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Re: No.***
Jun 26, 2020, 10:19 AM
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Why though?
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Legend [15730]
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I mean, it's not really worth getting into is it?
Jun 26, 2020, 10:31 AM
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If it could be done without raising taxes? You might as well ask if I would be for magic pixie dust.
But in general, I find large government programs antithetical to the personal liberties of the American ideal. I find large, monolithic programs to be antithetical to innovation.
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1st Rounder [635]
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Re: I mean, it's not really worth getting into is it?
Jun 26, 2020, 10:53 AM
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Had to add that to qualify it because too many think it is free. I know what it takes as far as taxes.
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All-In [46797]
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Re: Universal health care/Single payer
Jun 26, 2020, 10:18 AM
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1st Rounder [635]
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Re: Universal health care/Single payer
Jun 26, 2020, 10:19 AM
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You can avoid the conversation FB , you are just not bright enough to be allowed in.
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All-In [46797]
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Yeah that's it
Jun 26, 2020, 10:25 AM
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what you're going to have ITT is posters who can't explain why they are against it except for "big gov bad/socialism"
hur dur
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Oculus Spirit [79400]
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"Systematic racism in govt is killing black people!"
Jun 26, 2020, 10:35 AM
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Same people: "We should give govt control of healthcare!!"
LOL, just LOL
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110%er [5646]
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^^ what a great take!***
Jun 26, 2020, 5:09 PM
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1st Rounder [635]
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Re: Yeah that's it
Jun 26, 2020, 10:53 AM
[ in reply to Yeah that's it ] |
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LOL , the flip side is that too many on the other side think it is actually free. Duh!
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Oculus Spirit [80977]
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Lets be sirius for a minute..
Jun 26, 2020, 11:04 AM
[ in reply to Re: Universal health care/Single payer ] |
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You're already on the gubmint teat, and have a modicum of understanding of how healthcare finance (and finance in general) work, but have the biggest demand for it because of your income and family size. Of course you want free ####.
I'm still grappling with why I should be forced through higher taxes to pay for even more of the decisions in your life.
You certainly aren't paying for any of mine.
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All-In [34533]
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no thanks***
Jun 26, 2020, 10:19 AM
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1st Rounder [635]
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Re: no thanks***
Jun 26, 2020, 10:22 AM
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Why? Would it be that the taxes required would outweigh any benefit for you? Just curious.
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All-In [34100]
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Yes, very sick of in-network, out-of-network,
Jun 26, 2020, 10:22 AM
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do I go with Mrs. Spooneye's employer's plan or my employer's plan, etc. etc. Everyone needs healthcare. Put everyone into a single insurance pool to maximize spreading of costs and bargaining with the providers and pharmas.
Let private insurance stick around for rich people who want to pay more and get more. Don't want to outlaw a source of competition.
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1st Rounder [635]
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Re: Yes, very sick of in-network, out-of-network,
Jun 26, 2020, 10:24 AM
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Not much to bargain over if done right as all would fall under the Govt. See, all doctors nurses etc would be govt. employees. Same with drugs
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All-In [34100]
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Yes but definitely DON'T want doctors to be gov't employees.***
Jun 26, 2020, 12:32 PM
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1st Rounder [635]
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Re: Yes but definitely DON'T want doctors to be gov't employees.***
Jun 26, 2020, 2:43 PM
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Well for universal care to have any shot at saving money all doctors, nurses,,support staff and the hospital itself would either work for or be owned by the government. Otherwise you are just allowing the same profiteering to continue.
All labs would be in this group too.
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All-In [34100]
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Re: Yes but definitely DON'T want doctors to be gov't employees.***
Jun 26, 2020, 2:57 PM
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Are Canadian and British doctors employees of the government?
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1st Rounder [635]
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Re: Yes but definitely DON'T want doctors to be gov't employees.***
Jun 26, 2020, 3:28 PM
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Yup
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All-In [34100]
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Re: Yes but definitely DON'T want doctors to be gov't employees.***
Jun 26, 2020, 5:02 PM
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Nope.
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1st Rounder [635]
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All-In [34100]
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Re: Yes but definitely DON'T want doctors to be gov't employees.***
Jun 27, 2020, 6:15 AM
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Here's what it says under Staffing: Most are self-employed and the NHS only steps in where there aren't enough self-employed.
General practitioners, dentists, optometrists (opticians) and other providers of local health care are almost all self-employed, and contract their services back to the NHS. They may operate in partnership with other professionals, own and operate their own surgeries and clinics, and employ their own staff, including other doctors etc. However, the NHS does sometimes provide centrally employed health care professionals and facilities in areas where there is insufficient provision by self-employed professionals.
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1st Rounder [635]
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Re: Yes but definitely DON'T want doctors to be gov't employees.***
Jun 27, 2020, 9:02 AM
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Nearly all hospital doctors and nurses in England are employed by the NHS and work in NHS-run hospitals, with teams of more junior hospital doctors (most of whom are in training) being led by consultants, each of whom is trained to provide expert advice and treatment within a specific speciality. From 2017, NHS doctors must reveal how much money they make from private practice.[21]
See that is where the BK's and huge bills occur, hospitals and not GP office.
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CU Medallion [56005]
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Couldn't that be fixed without socializing health insurance?
Jun 26, 2020, 10:25 AM
[ in reply to Yes, very sick of in-network, out-of-network, ] |
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There are a TON of problems with our healthcare system and health insurance, but single payer is the nuclear option.
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All-In [48798]
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Its like the civil war up in here...***
Jun 26, 2020, 10:26 AM
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All-In [34100]
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Yeah but only one of us works in healthcare, and it's not me***
Jun 26, 2020, 12:33 PM
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110%er [8885]
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Re: Universal health care/Single payer
Jun 26, 2020, 10:34 AM
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no thank you, obamacare has it covered
and is da law of da land lol
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All-In [31847]
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Not in favor of that***
Jun 26, 2020, 10:35 AM
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Rock Defender [53]
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No
Jun 26, 2020, 10:37 AM
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1st Rounder [635]
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Re: No
Jun 26, 2020, 10:49 AM
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That is why I am not generally in favor of single payer. Wait times are just ludicrous and I lived in one for 20 years. Everything important was put aside until I came home during 1 of my 3 trips a year Stateside.
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All-In [31365]
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Re: Universal health care/Single payer
Jun 26, 2020, 10:37 AM
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Policy/Healthcare answer: Single payer would simplify medical care, and dramatically improve access to care. It would improve health outcomes. Not worrying about how much it is going to cost really increases healthcare utilization. It’s not infallible. It will increase demand for services, be exceptionally expensive, and...
Selfish reason: I’m adamantly opposed to it. The current system benefits me tremendously. If the government takes over healthcare and looks for ways to constrain spending, the ABSOLUTE first place they will go is physician income. Think administrators are going to give themselves a pay cut? Think the med-tech or Pharm industries with massive lobbying power (compared to physician groups especially) are going to let their piece of pie be eaten into? No. The easiest and softest target is physicians, who some people think compassion should be our only motivation and moral standing our reward. Look at physician salaries anywhere else with single payer. Do they do fine? Sure. Do they earn what we can earn here? No. It is not worth my educational investment or the stress and physical harm to my body I accept to be able to earn a good living to do this for 1/3 of the pay.
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Heisman Winner [137789]
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You'd certainly know more about it than I, but is the
Jun 26, 2020, 10:55 AM
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1/3 of current salary a real figure being tossed around? That's untenable, even if you cut school costs by a commensurate 2/3. Nobody of decent quality is going to invest the amount of time, as you said, in becoming a doctor. I would have figured most of the savings would come from not having to prop up the massive insurance industry that employs 3.5M people in the US.
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All-In [31365]
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Re: You'd certainly know more about it than I, but is the
Jun 26, 2020, 11:13 AM
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Let’s just pick the UK as a comparison, most physicians there earn at what would be the 25% percentile for primary care here in the US, and that includes subspecialists. I don’t want to say too much about specific numbers, but the contract I’ll be looking to sign straight out of training would be about 2-3x what my counterpart in the UK could expect. But I owe $350,000 for my education+capitalized interest. I spent a decade to get to this point, half of it completely unpaid, the latter half making <50k for at least 200k worth of work. Would I have done that to make $150k a year? Yeah no thanks. The stress of worrying about people I’ve operated on isn’t even remotely worth that much money. I’d roll biscuits at Hardees.
Everything a doctor of any flavor does is assigned an RVU, or relative value unit. From reading a chest X-RAY, to writing a clinic note, to transplanting a heart. RVUs are how a physician gets paid, usually you are contracted for X salary to produce Y RVU target, with some bonus structure set up for RVUs over yo ur target. Right now in the US, what earns high RVU’s and have favorable RVU:time ratios are procedures. So endoscopists, interventional cardiologists, interventional radiologists, and surgeons of all varieties are the highest-earning specialties. It makes sense- these are the same people that incur more risk, have more training, have more stress, etc.
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All-In [46797]
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This is why I'm done with the healthcare debate
Jun 26, 2020, 11:18 AM
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we literally have a guy IN THE FIELD saying it will be great for everybody with the exception of pay cuts by doctors (which can be worked around other ways) as well as the MULTIPLE peer reviewed studies that show UHC will be cheaper and better quality
and 90% of posters ITT are "goveberment bad huh huh"
Hopefully we can bring yall screaming and crying into better and cheaper healthcare that the rest of the modern world enjoys.
Message was edited by: FBCoachSC®
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Lot o points [155630]
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I have close family members in the field too.
Jun 26, 2020, 3:34 PM
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Dr’s and nurses. They have a different opinion. Weird, right? I know you were excited to have one anonymous medical resident solve this in your favor, but it’s more complex than that.
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1st Rounder [635]
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Re: This is why I'm done with the healthcare debate
Jun 26, 2020, 4:02 PM
[ in reply to This is why I'm done with the healthcare debate ] |
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Projected cheaper, keep that in mind. Not in reality unless the whole thing to include all staff are taken over by da government. Otherwise nothing changes and you are still clueless.
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Rock Defender [53]
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All-In [31365]
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Re: Wait what??
Jun 26, 2020, 11:25 AM
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That’s called capitalism chief. The harder I work, the more risk I incur, the higher my earnings.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Wait what??
Jun 26, 2020, 11:29 AM
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Oculus Spirit [80977]
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You'd be amazed at their base salary.
Jun 26, 2020, 11:39 AM
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I have a buddy who was an ED doc for 15 years, and now is a GP. I make almost twice as much as he does in base pay. He says he's a piecemeal worker, and he's not wrong.
He was on his own for a while in practice with another doc, and the insurance premiums got so high that it was either retire, or join a hospital system. He had even toyed with the idea of going to work for an insurance company as a CMO, but decided against it. He's a part timer now (I think) in a hospital practice.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: You'd be amazed at their base salary.
Jun 26, 2020, 11:54 AM
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All-In [31365]
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Re: Wait what??
Jun 26, 2020, 11:51 AM
[ in reply to Re: Wait what?? ] |
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The incorrect assumption underpinning your belief here is that doctors will deliberately and negligently order things or do things that we believe aren’t necessary. We take on a responsibility to our patients, one might even call it an oath, to act with the principles of beneficence/nonmaleficence, autonomy, and justice.
Let me give you an example. If I take out your gallbladder, you are trusting me that 1)your gallbladder is why you are having pain or can’t eat pizza or almost died from pancreatitis/cholangitis/cholecystitis, whatever the indication may be 2) I can do it safely and you’ll be better afterwards.
If I hurt you during the case. Or everything goes fine but you have a complication. Or you’re a nasty gross person and get your incisions infected. Or you get a blood clot and fall dead 1 week later. Or if you just don’t like me or aren’t happy with me because I didn’t give you as many pain pills as you wanted. Or you decide i didn’t tell you you’re going g to have diarrhea after. Or someone on the internet tells you that you didn’t actually need surgery that you just needed to huff lavender oil.... YOU CAN SUE ME FOR DAMAGES. You can ruin my career. Not to mention the psychological harm done to me, even when things go perfect. Until you’re better or leave the hospital or whatever, I worry about you. I worry if I might have hurt you. I worry if you’re in pain. I have to use my training and experience to get you through a really scary and dangerous situation. I hurt my hands and arms and neck because surgery is physical.
That gallbladder surgery took 45 minutes in the OR, but untold additional time and mental energy. And it earns me $650. Think I’m going to risk being sued or break my body or ruining my career to defraud you of $650?
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Wait what??
Jun 26, 2020, 12:02 PM
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All-In [31365]
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Re: Wait what??
Jun 26, 2020, 12:05 PM
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Ordering a CT doesn’t earn me anything, it pays the radiologist that reads it. There’s zero incentive other than good medical care for me to order a single test or lab.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Wait what??
Jun 26, 2020, 12:13 PM
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Hall of Famer [22935]
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Re: Wait what??
Jun 26, 2020, 4:17 PM
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The 'incentive to prescribe' doesn't occur as much for hospital based physicians. Often the P&T committee or HIN will set the standard of care.
At your local office, it will be much more muddy. High value HCPs can be awarded speaker program trips/stipends or other incentives to 'share their knowledge'. The govt tries to tighten this up more every year, but it still happens (less meals, less trips, can't even leave a pen behind, etc).
Some reps make a good case. Some products have stronger clinical data. Some drugs are better used for certain profiles of people. Sometimes a really hot sales rep can help with the decision. For products that can be distributed from the office, there are other profit models where the office can buy at a discounted rate then sell at a markup.
Obviously physicians have an oath to 'do no harm'. But pharma spends a lot of money on sales and marketing to influence HCPs as much as possible.
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Hall of Famer [22935]
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This thread has been fascinating
Jun 26, 2020, 4:10 PM
[ in reply to Re: Wait what?? ] |
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I've learned a good amount. Thank you ChasTig15. Great to hear a 1st person perspective.
Didn't realize that HCPs knew the transactional amounts for each procedure, or that some fractional portion was included in the pay structure for hospital physicians.
I knew about cost structures for private practice and profits for pre-buying/distributing products (especially in the Derm space which has so much cash going around).
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All-In [31365]
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Re: This thread has been fascinating
Jun 26, 2020, 4:21 PM
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Yeah man. It goes even deeper than that though! While RVUs are set by CMS and are standard across the board, what $$ amount you get paid (your conversion factor) is also negotiated in your contract. So two surgeons at two hospitals doing the exact same case can earn fairly widely discrepant amounts.
Some of the busiest docs will eschew a set salary entirely and opt for an “eat what you kill” pay where you get x dollars per RVU, and that’s it. Most though will have a salary with an RVU target, and some kind of work incentive for RVUs over target.
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All-In [31365]
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Re: Wait what??
Jun 26, 2020, 12:09 PM
[ in reply to Re: Wait what?? ] |
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It sounds like you’re in favor of quality-based metrics determining physician and hospital pay. These sorts of metrics, along with bundled repayments, were a big part of the ACA. Also happen to be the parts that doctors hate, for reasons that are too complicated to put in a T Net post
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Wait what??
Jun 26, 2020, 12:38 PM
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1st Rounder [635]
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Re: Wait what??
Jun 26, 2020, 4:19 PM
[ in reply to Re: Wait what?? ] |
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Ya were doing okay until the worry, prep time and physical part, then I had to laugh. My profession requires hours spent bent over and twisted replacing stuff. Then it takes off and I got 7 people’s lives in my hands. I weep a small rats hind end over you????
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All-In [31365]
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Re: Wait what??
Jun 26, 2020, 4:28 PM
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Not to discount more physical professions at all. But I will say, the torque required to do laparoscopic foregut surgery on a high BMI abdominal wall routinely bends our instruments. But yes, the mental energy required for what I do is usually way harder than the physical aspect.
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1st Rounder [635]
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Re: Wait what??
Jun 26, 2020, 5:24 PM
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I’ll keep that in mind next time I am putting 800 ft/lb on a nut. As far as responsibility and knowledge of systems I get a $15 million dollar helicopter, gotta know rotors, elastomers, metal and composite structure, turbine engines, transmissions/ gearboxes, electrical power generation and distribution,4 different computer systems, avionics and 4 axis autopilot systems. Gotta know how they all interact for trouble shooting and as an added bonus gotta carry liability insurance and buy all my own tools.
Yeah what you do is important but it ain’t rocket science and at times Doctors get way too full of themselves. You gain knowledge, run tests and either prescribe medication or perform surgery which you have been mentored on. In reality your job and mine are not far different, my patient just cannot tell me where it hurts nor complain.
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Letterman [298]
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1st Rounder [635]
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Re: Universal health care/Single payer
Jun 26, 2020, 2:48 PM
[ in reply to Re: Universal health care/Single payer ] |
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EU/ Canada are about 50% less pay for Doctors at GP level. At least the last study I read, flip side is free tuition and no malpractice insurance.
My GP said he had to Bill $5 a week for bills in practice before he made a dime, so there is that too.
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1st Rounder [635]
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Re: Universal health care/Single payer
Jun 26, 2020, 6:24 PM
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$5k per week
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110%er [8885]
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Heisman Winner [137789]
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All-In [31365]
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Re: Universal health care/Single payer
Jun 26, 2020, 10:49 AM
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Yeah if I was in literally in other field, heck even some other specialties within medicine, I’d be clamoring for single payer healthcare. People who think they’re against it have been lied to.
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Oculus Spirit [79400]
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We just sent over $1billion in stimulus money to dead people
Jun 26, 2020, 10:57 AM
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Nobody will ever convince me our govt is capable of responsibly and efficiently handling healthcare. I understand the premise, and can definitely see where it would work in some other countries. But not here. Not with the clown show we're running.
Maybe try it on a state by state basis, see where that goes. Implementing it on a federal level would be catastrophic though. Remember how hilariously bad the Obamacare website rollout was? I foresee that being par for the course for single payer in this country.
Granted, we've got a ###### up system right now.
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Oculus Spirit [80977]
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Hawaii has sort of a socialized medical care.
Jun 26, 2020, 11:00 AM
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It also costs about 20% higher to live there than the national average.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Heisman Winner [137789]
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Quaint as it is, he's probably a bit more qualified and has
Jun 26, 2020, 10:59 AM
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more credentials to speak to the respective systems than you or me.
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Rock Defender [53]
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I was referring to Sam “the hammer” Humphries
Jun 26, 2020, 11:12 AM
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All-In [34100]
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Rock Defender [53]
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Dude I’ll believe your self-righteousness and
Jun 26, 2020, 2:57 PM
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All-In [34100]
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All-TigerNet [11136]
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The guy from the original tweet isn't
Jun 26, 2020, 11:00 AM
[ in reply to Re: Universal health care/Single payer ] |
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an "utter POS" as the retweeter says. Potter was the former PR head at Cigna, turned public advocate and health insurer critic. Wrote books about it, you wanna know the dirty underbelly of health insurance read his first book.
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Hall of Famer [22935]
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MVP [539]
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Have you been to the DMV? the post office?
Jun 26, 2020, 11:07 AM
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Ever called the IRS? Voted in person election day?
No thanks. I don't want those people running my healthcare.
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Oculus Spirit [80977]
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Who's going to mention the fire dept first?***
Jun 26, 2020, 11:13 AM
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MVP [539]
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You mean the dept
Jun 26, 2020, 11:21 AM
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that's budget has grown exponentially even though fires are up less than 4% since 2008? Not exactly efficient. Just like police budgets going way up, along with traffic cams raising money and still they have huge problems.
When there is no competition, efficiency and service go away.
Plastic surgery and Lasik are the two main areas insurance doesn't cover. Not a coincidence that prices have gone down and quality has gone up, where every other area of healthcare is the opposite. Single payer is just a worse form of the insurance issues we have now. Instead of 2 insurance companies to choose from, we will have one choice. Yikes.
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All-In [31365]
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Re: Have you been to the DMV? the post office?
Jun 26, 2020, 11:17 AM
[ in reply to Have you been to the DMV? the post office? ] |
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The administrators aren’t the ones you should be worried about. Single payer will kill physician salaries, and the people who are going into medicine now will say screw this and go into finance, or banking, or engineering, or some other field that doesn’t cost as much money or time to get into.
The quality of doctors would plummet. That would be my biggest concern if I were a healthcare user.
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All-TigerNet [11136]
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I think there is too much evidence from countries
Jun 26, 2020, 11:50 AM
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that have successful universal health systems for this to be true. There would be a significant and glaring difference in outcomes if it were so.
If anything, I think you guys are lionized in our system and held to account for too much liability when medicine is anything but an exact science.
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All-In [31365]
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Re: I think there is too much evidence from countries
Jun 26, 2020, 11:58 AM
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I didn’t think this 10 years ago, but I can say with 100% certainty that the best doctors and hospitals in the world are in the US.
The rub though is that doesn’t always equate to health outcomes. Improving cardiovascular mortality rates doesn’t require a world class cardiac surgeon, it requires people with high blood pressure be able to get and afford appointments with a primary care doc that can take your pressure and prescribe you a pill you can afford.
For specialty medical care, the US is head and shoulders about any other country on earth in terms of the breadth and depth of our doctors. The problems with our system are in access to basic care and affordable drugs.
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All-TigerNet [11136]
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So there is a significant portion of our healthcare
Jun 26, 2020, 12:07 PM
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system that could see an advantage from a universalized structure and ultimately be of greater benefit our population? Too increase access and affordability we gotta remove somebody's hand from the pot as it passes.
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All-In [31365]
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Re: So there is a significant portion of our healthcare
Jun 26, 2020, 12:20 PM
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Oh without question. Universal healthcare would overall improve health outcomes. That’s been evidenced by... literally every country with it lol.
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All-TigerNet [11136]
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So if we follow logic, the greatest good, and not the
Jun 26, 2020, 12:50 PM
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profit, we should implement some kind of universal healthcare system here.
I'm not blind to the $650 gall bladder example you brought up with T3, though, I've got several docs in my family. If we take somebody's hand out of the collection plate on the medical side/we gotta take somebody's hand out on the legal side. While docs bear some responsibility, medicine needs to be recognized for what it is; an inexact science. There are few guarantees and sometimes shid just goes wrong and that needs to be demonetized. Docs can't completely abdicate responsibility(can't think of any that would), but the legal side of the map needs a GTFO off ramp for cheap lawsuits and bad liability insurers.
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Hall of Famer [22935]
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Sounds like our lawyer problem is worse than healthcare***
Jun 26, 2020, 4:30 PM
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CU Medallion [73569]
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nope. quality will plummet. long wait. not in hrs but months***
Jun 26, 2020, 11:23 AM
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All-TigerNet [11136]
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CU Medallion [73569]
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lol, i dont have time to hunt down a million other
Jun 26, 2020, 11:43 AM
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articles why your wrong but ok. i dont suspect anything presented to you would change your mind anyway
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CU Medallion [73569]
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my easy proof is the millions that come here b/c
Jun 26, 2020, 11:45 AM
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either they dont want to wait months or years for live saving crap or they want better care.
Oh and there's always the VA patients that are dying cause they are waiting so long.
but believe your lies and live in fantasyland
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All-TigerNet [11136]
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I present evidence from an expert in health
Jun 26, 2020, 11:59 AM
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insurance public relations, who wrote a book about his experience and has since dedicated his career to showing the inter workings of the health insurance industry and government officials. He criticizes just as many Ds as Rs, because so many politicians accept $ from healthcare companies. Potter shows you who, where, and why; and he's one of the guys who created the propaganda you love so much.
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Letterman [298]
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Nothing about the insurance industry is relevant
Jun 26, 2020, 12:41 PM
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. . . to the question at hand. His expertise therefore cannot be of value.
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All-TigerNet [11136]
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Thats some astounding value and logic you're
Jun 26, 2020, 12:54 PM
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bringing to the discussion, billy. Tell us more!
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Letterman [298]
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Re: Thats some astounding value and logic you're
Jun 26, 2020, 1:06 PM
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No, you tell us more. How is anything he says supposed to be relevant?
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All-TigerNet [11136]
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Still waitin' billy.***
Jun 26, 2020, 1:21 PM
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Letterman [298]
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Waiting for what?
Jun 26, 2020, 1:42 PM
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You really don't understand why talking about the flaws of health insurance is irrelevant to the topic at hand?
It's simple. The fact that the current insurance system is seriously flawed does not mean single-payor would be the best possible system (which of course is what we're looking for).
It doesn't even suggest that a single-payor system would be better than the current mess that the government forced us to accept. You have to make a case for single-payor. If all you're arguing is that single-payor is better than the current system, then the flaws of the current system would be relevant if and when you juxtapose them with the problems of your proposed replacement. But that whole exercise is ridiculous when both systems are so vastly inferior to what we should be doing.
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All-TigerNet [11136]
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Well, enlighten us, since you know it all.***
Jun 26, 2020, 3:02 PM
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1st Rounder [635]
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Re: Read this guy's first book
Jun 26, 2020, 6:28 PM
[ in reply to Read this guy's first book ] |
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He is not wrong on wait times, easy to find just typwe in a dang search bar for England and Canada.
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Orange Blooded [2692]
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Letterman [298]
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Nothing in that thread is relevant to the question presented***
Jun 26, 2020, 12:43 PM
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Orange Blooded [2692]
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Letterman [298]
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No
Jun 26, 2020, 12:38 PM
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There are a number of serious problems with it, including:
1. It exacerbates the separation between patient and payor (which is a huge part of the problem already). That means the performance of things patients don't want or need, and the non-performance of things patients want or need because the patient is not weighing the cost versus the benefit. See below.
2. It eliminates the price mechanism and therefore misallocates resources.
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Oculus Spirit [93607]
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Rationing is the only way to do it without raising taxes.
Jun 26, 2020, 12:51 PM
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The healthcare for the very people universal healthcare is suppose to help will be hurt the most.
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110%er [5646]
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Re: Universal health care/Single payer
Jun 26, 2020, 5:28 PM
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Legit question..are you a recent graduate or on the younger side? Ever seen the Farmer's commercial where they say "we know a thing or two, because we have seen a thing or two?"
I'm not being critical, just factual and objective. People with more experience and those that are smart enough to remember events and smart enough to link causes to effects are the ones that "know a thing or two." I believe I am one of those people.
I (and people my age) have seen people grow up from kids to adults; seem some of them die young and die old; seen people raise their kids and seen their kids die as teenagers; seen other kids graduate from elite schools with 4.0 and shoot to the moon. I've seen a middle-class family (mom, dad, son, daughter) break down when husband's mental illness got bad. He went from making $200k/yr in technology and living the model life to literally walking the streets as a homeless person and showering at the neighborhood pool. I recently found out he died.
I'm not super old - mid 50s. A lot of people work for me, a lot of very smart people. I've had to fire people, quite a few. Fired someone who had recently moved across the country (with wife and small child) to work for my company - it sucks. Over time, you build up a huge database of $hit that you can compare and contrast with day by day.
For example, it's easy to know that so and so's kid will end up on drugs and be a leech on society. You can see it in starting in middle school, but you have to pay attention.
My entire career has involved working with the government - mostly defense related. Arguably one of the higher performing branches of government.
Here is the answer:
Government bureaucracy is a cancer. The gov't has no requirement to make a profit or provide high quality service to stay in business. In fact, in today's environment as a gov't employee it can be far more preferable to do nothing and continuously delay making a decision to avoid making a wrong decision. Just don't do make a commitment, ever! They cannot fire you. The gov't competes with itself on many fronts - individuals attempt to create their own fiefdoms - huge dollars are wasted. Plus, the gov't demographics are 20% good (could make it in private industry), 40% strap hangers, 40% reading the newspaper 8 hr/day. It's a horrible environment to work in. If you are a high performer, you will not be able to stand working in the government, although there are a few good ones.
I would never trust the gov't to run a single payer healthcare system. Ever. And, do not get confused by comparing the 370 million person USA with Sweden or some other tiny pinpoint of a country with a single payer system. Size matters, and bigger is not better.
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1st Rounder [635]
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Re: Universal health care/Single payer
Jun 26, 2020, 6:27 PM
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Yup size does matter on this issue as does how unhealthy we are compared to a lot of EU countries people.
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