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Might be time to just address the elephant in the room
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Might be time to just address the elephant in the room


Nov 21, 2020, 6:13 PM

Reading some of the sources of people are posting with “information“ on Covid and science has made me realize that we should tar and feather and run Al Gore out of town

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It's really a bigger problem than is even publicized.


Nov 21, 2020, 6:30 PM

I know VERY otherwise smart people who can't seem to distinguish between a credible news source and a questionable/conspiracy/pseudoscience one. Either they CAN'T, or THEY WON'T. Not quite sure which is more ominous?

Right or left doesn't matter. You won't EVER hear me railing against the National Review for their partisan material --- because at least their articles are mostly factual and cite real sources to back up their claims.

I think quozzel, given his professional background and grasp on the subject, is most qualified to speak on the phenomenon.

It's a problem, though. And it should scare anyone to know that large swaths of the population are apt to view a Wordpress blog, with unnamed publishers and anonymous authors, on the same level as legitimate "MSM" sources.

It actually makes my eye twitch just thinking about it. But. Maybe we deserve it? Maybe this is all the culmination of sensationalism, consumerism and the notion of "my facts are as good as your facts, regardless of where they come from" that we tend to get in a democracy where technology is a driving force.

Anyway. I don't think there's a solution.

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Re: It's really a bigger problem than is even publicized.


Nov 21, 2020, 6:50 PM

Asimov said it best - and quite a few years ago.

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Re: It's really a bigger problem than is even publicized.


Nov 21, 2020, 6:51 PM

that fudder needs a haircut

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case in point***


Nov 21, 2020, 7:10 PM



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Re: case in point***


Nov 21, 2020, 7:19 PM

no need to disparage yourself over your ignorance

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Re: It's really a bigger problem than is even publicized.


Nov 21, 2020, 8:31 PM [ in reply to It's really a bigger problem than is even publicized. ]

I appreciate the shout-out, though my opinion is just that, an opinion, same as anybody's. But I actually think there is a solution.

We're sort of in Information Babbel right now. We collectively can't even agree what the facts are...and that's largely because content publishers - I am loathe to call them "media" - on both the right and left have realized there's big money to be made in telling people what they want to hear and serving them the facts they want that affirm their own worldviews.

The "mainstream" press is too biased to the left, and they've steadily tacked further left and started crossing that line between accountability and activism. That created the space for the so-called "conservative media" to get into the gap the other way...but the "conservative media" is actually just anti-media. They don't do much in the way of actual reporting and they certainly hold no one accountable; the whole point of conservative media is actually to just negate the real media. Fox News was created by Roger Ailes, a former Nixon PR expert who was good at framing the so-called "Southern Strategy" - translation, making racism sound acceptable - and who blamed the media for Nixon's downfall...and created Fox News specifically to counter that in the future. Fox did exactly what it was created to do keeping Trump's base loyal during impeachment...which in turn kept the Senate in line.

The mainstream media has problems, but they still bust each other up savagely for "cooking" stories or failing fact checks. You get caught cooking a story and you'll never work for a reputable source again. The same does not apply to the conservative media. Their job is to lie, and do it so quickly and in such volume the mainstream media can't correct the record quickly enough.

The solution is actually pretty simple, IMHO: a warning label, a watermark that is legally required to be placed on any broadcast over a certain number of views that is present for the duration of that show or segment. That watermark should show whether the program in question is straight reporting or opinion, the bias rating (extreme, right, left, center-left, center-right, or minimally biased) and the factuality rating of the source in question. Bombing fact checks repeatedly would get you that dreaded FAKE NEWS rating.

Then audiences at least know what they're looking at, and they can make their own informed decisions. It would do a wonderful job of dragging all the alleged "real news" sites and stations back to center, and leave the fake news sites increasingly isolated.

Sure, there would be people still insisting it's all one giant conspiracy. They're welcome to go right on ahead. But especially the deeper we move into the Information Age, making sure our information base is valid is going to be increasingly important. Fact checkers are likely to get as important as lawyers or doctors in the future...and our future will likely depend on them every bit as much.

I think it's just a necessary progression. And it's going to happen, because actual facts are what allow us to make informed decisions, and right now there's an entire growth industry dedicated to bullsh!tting and misinforming huge segments of our own population...for profit.

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Good thoughts. Agree, but might quibble with the paragraph


Nov 21, 2020, 8:47 PM

about the left side of the media policing itself for false stories. With the use of anonymous sources and 'former associates', writers have written many unsubstantiated stories as fact while managing to not actually tell a lie. The writer likely didn't really care whether they story was true - maybe knew it wasn't - but as long the editor would accept sources that 20 years ago wouldn't see the light of day, everyone is safe.

That's a big subject, and I'm not searching for a long debate about that - I wont question however you choose to respond - but it seems that the msm has become adept at telling a narrative as fact while skirting accountability for doing so.

But that is a quibble. You're right: we're living in 1984. And like 1984, its not them, but us. They give us exactly what we want.

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Re: Good thoughts. Agree, but might quibble with the paragraph


Nov 21, 2020, 9:12 PM

Had you seen A Social Dilemma on Netflix yet? If you haven't I'd highly recommend it. It sums up the pickle we've created for ourselves, especially in regards to confirmation bias and creating algorithms that feed us the information we want to see...that only feeds our conviction that our worldview is correct and everyone shares it.

That's the main Gordian knot we have to untangle. I think we can and it starts with creating tools that help us tell the quality from the crap. One thing that makes me (cough!) special is that I cut off all my social media years ago. I'm not alone - a lot of the futurist set has been doing that for awhile...which, believe it or not, includes the tech families from Silicon Valley. That's right - the billionaires who made themselves billionaires off the tech revolution...won't let their own kids partake in social media because they're becoming aware of what a monster they themselves have created.

Ironic. So I do my best, anyhow, to confound any algorithm. I try to read and watch everything. I read Fox News, and CNN, Vox and Wall Street Journal. I occasionally watch a few minutes of Alex Jones and Infowars until I can't stand it anymore. I look for loopy leftist conspiracy sites like Far Left Field - they're out there too. There's way too much to absorb, of course, but I try really hard to put together a composite and understand everybody.

Best I can do.

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I don't have much to add. You two gentlemen are


Nov 21, 2020, 9:35 PM

certainly in a class of your own in terms of awareness. And even intellect.

I love seeing civil conversations like this on a message board. A lot of people (including me) would be wise to watch you nice fellers operate. Love it. God bless.

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Re: Good thoughts. Agree, but might quibble with the paragraph


Nov 21, 2020, 10:36 PM [ in reply to Re: Good thoughts. Agree, but might quibble with the paragraph ]

I'd be wary of a man licking on an ice cream cone and smothering me with flattery, just saying. Watch your 6.

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No.


Nov 23, 2020, 8:21 AM [ in reply to Good thoughts. Agree, but might quibble with the paragraph ]

about the left side of the media policing itself for false stories. With the use of anonymous sources and 'former associates', writers have written many unsubstantiated stories as fact while managing to not actually tell a lie. The writer likely didn't really care whether they story was true - maybe knew it wasn't - but as long the editor would accept sources that 20 years ago wouldn't see the light of day, everyone is safe.

This hasn't changed. Anonymous sources have been used for decades. The most famous investigative story of all time used the most famous anonymous source of all time in 1972.

That assumption that the writer didn't care or knew it to be false is not how the industry works, and yes, that's self policed. Now I'll definitely entertain the idea that some editors (rather, many broadcast producers) push sensationalism here and there because they've lost touch with how to be a reporter.

That's a big subject, and I'm not searching for a long debate about that - I wont question however you choose to respond - but it seems that the msm has become adept at telling a narrative as fact while skirting accountability for doing so.


As I posted in another part of this thread, the idea of "MSM" as some massive cohesive unit is one of the ignorant opinions held on this board, and a base misunderstanding of capitalism. The reason the media self-police is the exact opposite of what you argue. If NY Times ##### up and publishes something false, the Washington Post will be falling all over themselves to pounce it. Why? The same reason Ford is going to jump if Chevy starts making pickup trucks that break down after 20,000 miles.

But that is a quibble. You're right: we're living in 1984. And like 1984, its not them, but us. They give us exactly what we want.


No, we are not. We are not in anything close to 1984. I would recommend you re-read the book.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


I would agree with your solution except for a growing number


Nov 23, 2020, 9:14 AM [ in reply to Re: It's really a bigger problem than is even publicized. ]

of people in this country who don't even trust the fact checkers. Trump and his regime have not only pushed "fake news" causing a distrust of the media, but now they are sowing distrust of the fact checkers.

Soon we will have roving factions of people who only believe what they want to believe and only indulge in information that backs up their beliefs. It's been here before, now it's coming to the surface.

But for some reason they only person telling them the truth is the con man in chief.

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I like your funny words magic man


"Who fact checks the fact checkers?!?!"


Nov 23, 2020, 9:21 AM

One of the dumbest phrases I've ever seen on this board.

Yep, you're right. People are putting themselves more and more in their echo chambers. I wish I could go back in time, find them, and ask them (say, in like 1997), "What would you say if I told you that one day you'll only believe what Donald Trump says. Like that's it. Just his word."

They'd probably say, "Donald Trump? The billionaire? Hahaha no. That's silly."

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


Re: It's really a bigger problem than is even publicized.


Nov 23, 2020, 8:13 AM [ in reply to It's really a bigger problem than is even publicized. ]

It's amazing how many supposedly college-educated people on this board--people who had to learn how to verify information, fact check, and analyze to graduate--do exactly what you describe. Part of it is human emotional nature (and those on the far right tend to be more driven by fear and anger due to their enlarged amygdala) and how fake news operates. If it can play on fear and anger, it generates more of a reaction and a tendency for those on the far right to believe it.

That's why they've been so susceptible to these conspiracy theories on COVID or the election or just any of that QAnon stuff.

You also see the tendency to label anything they see or hear in a legitimate source as "the media" or "MSM" as if all news sources are this massive, unified blob of intentional misinformation. This will remain one of the most ignorant beliefs held on this board.

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[Catahoula] used to be almost solely a PnR rascal, but now has adopted shidpoasting with a passion. -bengaline

You are the meme master. - RPMcMurphy®

Trump is not a phony. - RememberTheDanny


We actually played this afternoon?***


Nov 21, 2020, 7:22 PM



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Re: Might be time to just address the elephant in the room


Nov 21, 2020, 8:05 PM

Then address it.... if it’s time.

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