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Topic: My take on the baseball "situation."
Replies: 32   Last Post: Jun 10, 2019 3:17 PM by: deroberts
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My take on the baseball "situation."

[9]
Posted: Jun 3, 2019 11:34 AM
 

I was a very vocal supporter of Jack Leggett back when he was on the hot seat. My opinion was that while there was clearly a downward trajectory, that trajectory was from great heights (that he established) and that giving Jack time to right the ship was more likely to keep our program up in he clouds than if we fired him and looked for a hot coach. So, I disagreed with firing JL because I thought our long-term and medium term future was better off sticking with the coach who took our program to the best place it's ever been.

But, when Jack was fired, and Monte was hired, I got behind him. I put Clemson ahead of my opinion and I couldn't help but want to see us succeed. I went on record saying that while I did not support firing Jack Leggett, I did support the hire. But I said then, and I'll say it again now... if we didn't make it to a Super Regional in 4 years, that confirms that firing Jack Leggett (who took us to 11 of them in his 22 years) was a mistake. After Monte Lee's first year, I was convinced that we would likely go to a Super regional in the subsequent 3 years and I considered his first season to be a success. I thought even after 2017 that we were around the corner from getting close to where Jack had us a decade ago. I thought there was a big chance that the painful and controversial decision to fire the most successful baseball coach we ever had may somehow be vindicated. Now, I am convinced that is not the case.

I am definitely against firing Monte Lee because I think you simply have to give baseball coaches a LOT of time. I remember that Wilhelm went multiple years without even going to the tournament and it would have been awful to fire him because we were clearly a solid program. Then with Jack, we made the tourney 21 of 22 years, and went to the CWS 6 times, and had our best finish ever. But then, after 4 years of failing to make it back to a Super Regional we fire a Hall of Fame coach. Now, after he was fired, we just went 4 years in a row without a Super and we have a guy who is not in the HOF. We have a guy, who I support, who does not have 6 CWS under his belt. We have a guy that does not own the most impressive coaching tree in the history of the sport. We have a guy who hasn't dedicated the lion's share of his career to Clemson. It's an ugly situation and it was NOT worth it.

If we fired Monte Lee now it would be a mistake in my opinion. But the biggest mistake was firing Jack Leggett. Bill Wilhelm is a legend at Clemson and did not have the same level of success as Jack Leggett. Bill Wilhelm would have been fired if T-Net had been around then. That much is clear.

So why did this happen? It's obvious. T-Net (Vocal Clemson fans/donors) got emotional because our (relatively) minor struggles coincided with our rival having one of the best eras in college baseball history. So we literally found an assistant coach on the team that we were so jealous of. And we are not better off for it after 4 years. So when you tell me to "move on," I have moved on in the sense that I support Monte Lee and Clemson baseball. But I learn from history. And I try not to make the same stupid decisions more than once.

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Re: My take on the baseball "situation."

[3]
Posted: Jun 3, 2019 11:40 AM
 

Nothing here I can disagree with! Let’s move on to greater heights.


Re: My take on the baseball "situation."

[1]
Posted: Jun 3, 2019 11:40 AM
 

I liked Jack but I felt he inherited more than built a great program. He kept it going at a high level for a long while. As it dropped off he didnt seem to be able to reverse that. We seemed to be making the same errors and lack the same things over several years. I was hoping he could turn it around. I think the fact it didnt seem to change is what caused the change. I guess those w a closer view thought it wasnt going to change without a different coach

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Our 2 best 4 year stretches were under Jack. Not before.


Posted: Jun 3, 2019 1:08 PM
 

Jack's success was higher and more consistent than Bill Wilhelm's. That is simply a fact. The perception is way off from reality. Bill Wilhelm obviously built our program and was a great coach. He deserves ALL of the credit and praise he gets. But the idea that Jack simply lived off that success is totally fiction.

Look for yourself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Clemson_Tigers_baseball_seasons

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I agree***


Posted: Jun 4, 2019 8:53 AM
 




Your last paragraph is laughable solely because you think

[2]
Posted: Jun 3, 2019 12:52 PM
 

TigerNet has the power to fire a coach. That is just ludicrous!

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"When I was young, I was sure of many things; now there are only two things of which I am sure: one is, that I am a miserable sinner; and the other, that Christ is an all-sufficient Saviour. He is well-taught who learns these two lessons." -John Newton


Re: Your last paragraph is laughable solely because you think


Posted: Jun 3, 2019 1:03 PM
 


TigerNet has the power to fire a coach. That is just ludicrous!


Agree 100% LOL I was agreeing with OP on everything until that statement. Kind of lost me with that one. I think Jack was a good coach but I think he was on his way down after a long successful career. Sort of like Frank Beamer except Frank recognized it and stepped down before the inevitable happened. Some coaches won't do that and force the hand of their employers.


Message was edited by: TigerBill82®


2020 orange level member

That's the simplest possible interpretation.

[2]
Posted: Jun 3, 2019 1:05 PM
 

Tigernet itself obviously doesn't fire the coaches. But Tigernet is part of a changed culture. You could replace T-Net with "our fanbase" and it means the same thing. More people think they are experts and have more of a voice to influence others. You don't see how the internet changed college athletics?

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I understand your point concerning the internet moaning.


Posted: Jun 3, 2019 1:16 PM
 

But, I believe it was more of an administrative decision with "big donor" influence.

If I remember correctly, Dan R gave Leggett an ultimatum the season before his dismissal - show improvement or we will seek other options.

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"When I was young, I was sure of many things; now there are only two things of which I am sure: one is, that I am a miserable sinner; and the other, that Christ is an all-sufficient Saviour. He is well-taught who learns these two lessons." -John Newton


Drad is operating in a changed sports culture.

[1]
Posted: Jun 3, 2019 1:38 PM
 

Our donor base had their pride hurt by SCAR being elite. And so they pressured DRad. T-Net is relevant because it overlaps. The internet in general makes the discourse much more negative. T-Net is just the most popular Clemson website.

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Nah...it's just technology...

[1]
Posted: Jun 3, 2019 2:00 PM
 

Making the world less and less personable by the day. Everyone has a voice...most want to be heard...few want to listen...and even less, far less, care to try and comprehend the 'culture' we live in today.

Compound that with men/women staking their livelihoods on the performance of 17-22 year olds...and painstakingly assessed by arm chair quarterbacks who believe they know far more than they do...seriously, who would want such a job for long?

Case in point: our national title winning football team...go back and read some threads from games just last season...especially in the first quarter, or...allow yourselves to read the 'completely undone sputum' of supposed Tiger faithful during the Syracuse game. It was the Tommy West years all over again.

Technology is the proverbial ledge...and many...MANY need to stay step away from it.


That is EXACTLY right. The revisionist history buffs on here


Posted: Jun 4, 2019 9:31 AM
 

would have us think that Leggett was totally blindsided and quickly booted out the door. That was not the case. DRad had laid down the parameters whereby Jack would be retained, and the team did not perform up to those standards the following year. The only mystery to me is, DRad followed through on that one, but not on making a change to our basketball program when Brad Brownell was ultimately in the same position as Leggett was this past year. Does that mean that DRad thinks he pulled the trigger on Leggett too soon? Stay tuned for more, on the next episode of "As the Stomach Churns".

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It's not really relevant to the main point. Drad setting


Posted: Jun 4, 2019 10:43 AM
 

the parameters the way he did was a mistake. We are not meeting those parameters 4 years later. What's the difference, we are not being owned by the coots athletically any more. Our rivalry got Jack fired. The impact that had on boosters was immense.

Bill Wilhelm wouldn't have met those parameters for most of his career.

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Re: My take on the baseball "situation."

[1]
Posted: Jun 3, 2019 2:02 PM
 

This is one of the best post I have ever read. It was Well thought out and you made some excellent points. I have often wondered how we on Tigernet would do if our jobs were evaluated daily on social media, radio talk shows, and in print media the way coaches, managers, AD’s and other jobs in sport are evaluated.

Unfortunately, fans sometimes give little thought the implications firing a HC. In many cases the assistances are fired, families are up rooted and coaches have to make difficult moves away from friends and family. I want to win games just like any other competitive fan, but I know there are times when dismissing a coach or AD is necessary. To often though fans start calling for a coaches job way to soon. Another problem is dumpster feeders like ESPN analysts and sports writers keep the idea of firing a specific coach in the media so that ever mistake he or the team makes and every loss is amplified. Many times that targeted Coach is eventually fired.
We live in a world where for many it’s all about the winning , no matter how it is accomplished. We want the wins now. We are an impatient society , we live in a “ I want it now world “. We no longer have the patience to allow for player development and rebuilding a programs or the time it takes for a HC and a team to build a winning chemistry.

I will support Monte Lee and will pray for him to be a more successful coach. I hope others will do the same. Knowing that you are wanted by the fans, the administration and your players IMO will make Monte Lee a much better HC. I am not making any excuses for Coach Lee, but I have often wondered how hard it is the break a kid down then rebuild him into a much better baseball player as well as a much better individual. Before playing college sports, many of these kids have worked with personal coaches and trainers that they work with many times all of the way through HS. Many of these kids play sports almost every day of the year.I believe it has made College coaches jobs more difficult. Also, I believe it has contributed to more injuries. The above can affect wins and losses. And I wonder if lack of fan support or negative social media have an affect on coaches. I believe they do.

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Re: My take on the baseball "situation."


Posted: Jun 3, 2019 2:25 PM
 

Completely Solid Orange,

Another opinion I wanted to include in my post was that every since Clemson was so close winning the CWS before being beaten by the coots 2 times in back to back games the year the coots won the CWS, IMO Clemson has been a different team. It’s seems like they still have a hangover from those 2 losses.

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JL was out coached in those loses,made me think maybe


Posted: Jun 4, 2019 8:56 AM
 

we needed change


This line of thinking seems so obviously ridiculous to me.


Posted: Jun 4, 2019 10:41 AM
 

"We were out-coached by the best team in the country. So, we should fire our coach even though the vast majority of other coaches were outcoached by us that year."

Their pitching against us shocked their coaching too.

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we had more talent than coots that year***


Posted: Jun 4, 2019 2:23 PM
 




Re: My take on the baseball "situation."

[1]
Posted: Jun 3, 2019 2:35 PM
 

I can not say that I agree or disagree with all that you've said bc you never pointed out that Jack got really lucky with two assistant coach hires of Tim Corbin that stayed with Jack for 8 years, and Kevin O'Sullivan that was with Jack for 8 years, and that equals 16 years of Jack's success, and both of those assistants moved on to be HC's, and they have had equal or better success as HC's at their own programs as Jack Had at Clemson when they both were Jack's assistants. O'Sullivan and Corbin were 16 years of Jack Leggett's 21 year at Clemson.

Also, just as HS FB players are much better coached now at the HS level, so are Baseball players at the HS level, and MLB gets their pick of the HS players before they ever get to play an inning of college baseball. That to is bc HS baseball coaches are getting the talent to rise to the top much sooner than HS baseball coaches were 10-20 years ago!!! To have and keep a solid college baseball team, coaches have to get it to where their best talent is spread out a couple of years so that MLB don't take all their talent off the shelf all at once leaving what was a great team powerless....

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It is inaccurate to say he was lucky.

[3]
Posted: Jun 3, 2019 3:04 PM
 

Assistant coaches are not delivered to our programs based on a lottery system.

Where is Clemson without Brent Venables? Do you think Dabo is lucky? I don't. I think Dabo deserves credit for evaluating how people fit in the program.

Jack Leggett never turned over coaching to either of those guys. Jack Leggett coached 3rd base, and he made the overwhelming majority of all personnel and strategic decisions. Sully and Corbin continue to ask Jack for advice on a more than monthly basis.

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Re: It is inaccurate to say he was lucky.

[1]
Posted: Jun 3, 2019 9:22 PM
 

CSO is correct on this one AO. As for the MLB argument, that’s been going on forever and each team has to deal with it.

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Re: My take on the baseball "situation."

[1]
Posted: Jun 3, 2019 3:44 PM
 

The main problem with CML is not necessarily his Coaching it’s the talent he has brought in.
Jack Recruited very well and always had top 10-15 classes with a few top 5. Even losing the big studs to Pro ball , all schools have to deal with this .
CML has had 1 or 2 big recruits that have not panned out and his classes have not been that great.
His best year was with Jacks players and as they have left it’s showed on the field .
Next season we will not have that true superstar on the team for the first time in a long time.
We will have loads of experience but the quality of player has to get better.


Re: My take on the baseball "situation."

[2]
Posted: Jun 3, 2019 4:16 PM
 

Clemson recruiting class ranked top 10 in the country

Clemson’s 2018 recruiting class was rated No. 9 in the nation by Baseball America on Wednesday. The newcomers that comprise the class are already with the team, led by head coach Monte Lee and assistant coaches Bradley LeCroy (recruiting coordinator), Andrew See and Greg Starbuck. The class was also rated No. 14 in the country by Perfect Game.
Three signees were selected in the 2018 MLB draft. Davis Sharpe was picked in the 34th round by the Pittsburgh Pirates, Justin Wrobleski was drafted in the 36th round by the Seattle Mariners and Adam Hackenberg was chosen in the 39th round by the Kansas City Royals.
The Tigers are coming off a 47-16 season and hosted a regional for the third year in a row in 2018. Clemson opens the 2019 season against South Alabama on Feb. 15 at Doug Kingsmore Stadium.

uhh supercoot, last i checked number 9 would be in the top 10. but what do i know. plus, we are sweating out a couple of guys in the upcoming class. but we all know you know the pulse of clemson atletics.

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Re: My take on the baseball "situation."

[2]
Posted: Jun 3, 2019 9:29 PM
 

Winitall, he’s right. Actually, jacks last class was the worst ranked. A lot of those players are the players Monte played with this year and more specifically, pitched with in Crawford, Marr, Mat and Spiers.

College baseball years tend to lag a year behind the other sports and you tend to recruit kids early...

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Re: My take on the baseball "situation."


Posted: Jun 4, 2019 2:31 PM
 

Does anyone know what happened to Justin Wrobleski? Davis Sharpe had a excellent year, and I thought he and Wrobleski would be a great 1-2 punch. But Wrobleski seemed to just disappear. It's almost as if the coaches just gave up on him.


Re: My take on the baseball "situation."


Posted: Jun 10, 2019 3:08 PM
 

He was told to transfer.


The Gamecocks

[2]
Posted: Jun 3, 2019 4:46 PM
 

Almost single handily ended Jack's career at Clemson.

Even though they were extremely successful seasons, The fact that we lost two straight to SC both times we made the winners bracket in Omaha in 2002 and 2010 really hurt his perception in the fan base. If it had been against like UCLA or Texas the consternation would never have been that bad


Re: The Gamecocks


Posted: Jun 3, 2019 9:33 PM
 

I agree that’s some of it. Most is DRad didn’t understand what was happening in college baseball.

Maybe a little more research and listening to what other coaches were saying, he wouldn’t have fired him.

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This is it. It was mostly about the emotions of the rivalry.***


Posted: Jun 4, 2019 10:45 AM
 



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Re: My take on the baseball "situation."


Posted: Jun 3, 2019 9:37 PM
 

Very well put together CSO. To better understand the college baseball landscape, here is an article that breaks it down. JL tried to tell Drad etc this but the big donors were screaming... perhaps a little foresight on everyone’s part would have prevented CJL’s departure:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theadvocate.com/baton_rouge/sports/lsu/article_e0fd5b7d-935a-5e2d-b354-0b92d4feb23f.amp.html

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Re: My take on the baseball "situation."

[3]
Posted: Jun 4, 2019 6:37 AM
 

Very nice take on the situation, CSO. Well said.

I do not know if Jack could have righted the ship since I think he had changed over time.
Still your observations about the difficulty of hiring a new, better coach are right most of the time.

Most coaches fail in every sport. Bama, Notre Dame, and Southern Cal have all posted more football seasons at .500 and below than Clemson over the last 25 years which illustrates how hard it can be to hire the right coach.

The boo birds always want to hire a new guy. Sometimes you are only getting a different mediocrity when you do. We won 35. Last year it was 47. Year before it was 42. It might not be time to bail on Monte Lee.

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I agree with you. And it makes me cringe to think if/when


Posted: Jun 4, 2019 11:04 AM
 

our football results come back down out of the clouds will our fans/tnet end up treating Dabo like Jack Leggett and not give him his just respect for what he has done with our sports program. I think we have people now who will expect a CFP appearance every year instead of celebrating it. Hopefully we have more intelligence than that. But this me-first, i deserve it now, mentality of everyone in today's society...i don't know. It was a different day when Danny was here and we never really saw him descend bc of the firing but..hopefully we will exhibit grace for Dabo if that day every comes.


Re: My take on the baseball "situation."


Posted: Jun 10, 2019 3:17 PM
 

So why did this happen? It's obvious. T-Net (Vocal Clemson fans/donors) got emotional because our (relatively) minor struggles coincided with our rival having one of the best eras in college baseball history. So we literally found an assistant coach on the team that we were so jealous of. And we are not better off for it after 4 years. So when you tell me to "move on," I have moved on in the sense that I support Monte Lee and Clemson baseball. But I learn from history. And I try not to make the same stupid decisions more than once.

HUH, DIDNT REALIZE WE WERE JEALOUS OF THE COLLEGE OF CHARLESTON. WHO KNEW. I WAS THINKING WE WENT AFTER A VERY HOT YOUNG COACH THAT HAD TAKEN THE COFC TO THE REGIONALS AND A SUPER REGIONAL. SILLY ME.

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