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Topic: Minimum wage ..: thought Trumpster won that one
Replies: 101   Last Post: Oct 23, 2020 12:02 PM by: T3Tiger®
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Replies: 101  

Minimum wage ..: thought Trumpster won that one

[2]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 8:31 AM
    Reply

$15 per hr in NYC is different than 15 per hr in Davenport Iowa

Let the states set it

Plus the left coast has already proven that higher min wage = less jobs

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that is where libs lose that arguement bigly

[2]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 8:43 AM
    Reply

You gonna tell a small restaurant or the mom and pop gas station, in Tabor City that they have to pay their employees $15/hr?

the libs that rage on this typically live in big cities.

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Agreed.

[1]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 8:56 AM
    Reply

Cost of living is way too variable from one place to another. Just from a practical standpoint it doesn't make sense to have a federal minimum wage.

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i agree with that too***


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:06 AM
    Reply



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Re: Agreed.


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 11:54 AM
    Reply

Muri,

What if the federal law said that each state's minimum wage had to allow a full time worker (40 hrs/wk) to exceed the poverty line based on the economic formula) for that state. Then the federal gov't could promote a living wage while allowing for economic flexibility state to state.


How about this?


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 12:02 PM
    Reply

If a job doesn’t pay what you want, don’t take it. If enough people do that, the wage will automatically be driven up.

Meanwhile, develop some skills that employers paying the wage you desire actually want.

People act like they deserve to be paid a certain amount for slopping some mayo on a burger these days or taking the fry basket out of the deep fryer. You start driving those costs up and they get replaced by automation.

2020 orange level member

Yep - and larger establishments would need to agree to


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:25 AM
    Reply

make a little less money.

If they pay more to their employees, they are going to raise the price of their goods and services. (Or employee less people...)

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the larger one's will just bring in robots, where applicable

[1]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:49 AM
    Reply

its already started.

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See also: McDonalds automated kiosks.***

[3]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 10:01 AM
    Reply



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yep, btw, their interface sucks ###

[1]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 10:04 AM
    Reply

whoever designed it should be fired. Takes you 10 times as long to order than it should

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Wait, are you suggesting somebody


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 10:26 AM
    Reply

who uses that POS system hundreds of times a day may be better able to navigate it than somebody who sees it like once a month. Would having that person make the line go faster be worth $0.05/ burger?

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and here is the other issue there the argument is missing...

[1]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 10:58 AM
    Reply

Your example of a family run business...

They are forced to pay people more than they would work for so that means their overhead is higher.

And let's say they DO NOT raise their prices to offset the costs.

Where does that money from? You may have raised the status of the minimum wage worker, but you have brought the standard of living down of the family that owns the business.

We act like this action is happening in a vacuum. The small business owner is the middle class. The rich are not affected in the least by this.

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The federal government should only set a lower limit

[2]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 8:45 AM
    Reply

And that lower limit should be for the lowest state. California can require $40/hr if they want. Same for most regulations. The federal government is forced (Equal Protection) to go with the lowest common denominator, which is why state laws are better for specific states, like wages, environmental regulations, etc. LA sits in a natural smog-prone climate. So they need tougher measures than SC or Alabama.

But whatever the minimum wage is, it doesn't matter. The cost is always passed on to the customer. YAY! I make $15.hr now! Thank you BIDEN!!! Now let me go buy a $8 Big Mac meal at McDonalds then complain how I'm still broke.

PLUS, and this is key, we need a ridiculously low minimum wage to properly leverage illegal labor in the US to keep costs and inflation down. Inflation is likely more dangerous for our economy than covid.

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- MauldinT
"Tiggi­ty is like finding a high-motor, Dabo five star heart guy. Underrated by the recruiting services, sort of like a Dorian O'Daniel."


Re: The federal government should only set a lower limit


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 8:56 AM
    Reply

Totally agree about the federal level being a floor. Disagree that minimum wage is always passed on to the customer. Prices are set to maximize profits. It reduces overall profits to pay your workers more, but raising prices on customers to compensate can further reduce profits due to reduced sales at that point on the demand curve.

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If you see everything as liberal and conservative teams, then You Are What's Wrong With America #YAWWWA


It depends on the industry and its importance to the


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:17 AM
    Reply

consumer. Many businesses will fold because people won't pay more and they can't afford to pay the higher wage. But some businesses people will just take the hit and pay more. Businesses rely on their profits. They strive to make the most profit and have the best product. HOWEVER, that profit is often reinvested in the business. Opening new stores, new locations, adding employee benefits, dividends to investors, etc. It's not like the owner of a business takes all the profits for themselves. PLUS they're taxed on their profits as well, which is why so much is reinvested.

It will force many industries to compensate in one form or another. Less benefits. Cancel expansion. There are many ways it will be tackled. But at the end of the day it's a zero sum game. Switzerland has the highest minimum wage in the world. Met a bartender there once 2 decades ago from the US and he was making $19 an hour. Which is the reason he went to Switzerland. But then he explained the $8 Big Mac across the street, and the housing, food, clothing, and other costs offset any real benefit he would have. Leveraging our wages in this way is what illegal aliens in the US do as well. It's the same draw. They come here for the jobs and wages. And they live here in poverty beneath the radar, and far below our poverty level. Why? So they can maximize what they send home, and leverage that to buy a few acres in Mexico and a house for mom and dad and their family. But that's why they rarely stay here long. Almost all plan to return to Mexico eventually. If they do stay here long term, the cost of living catches up with them and the amount they send home decreases. Furthermore, they're learning that the benefit of doing what they do is shrinking by the year as Mexico becomes awash in our money, the costs of goods and services in Mexico increases, making that nest egg less.

Zero sum game. At least in the real world of supply and demand and labor-based money value. Now stocks and debt is a whole other area that heavily relies on our low minimum wages, almost as much as imports.

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- MauldinT
"Tiggi­ty is like finding a high-motor, Dabo five star heart guy. Underrated by the recruiting services, sort of like a Dorian O'Daniel."


I'm obviously not a business person...


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:40 AM
    Reply

I'm just trying to thing logically.

Starting position

Company sells product A at $1

They pay their Entry-level worker who makes product A $12/hr

Average consumer who buys product A makes $25/hr

After minimum wage increase


Company eventually raises product A to $1.25

Entry-level employee now gets $15/hr

Average consumer still makes $25/hr

Whose buying power is affected? This is especially concerning when the $25/hr consumer probably has a college degree or some kind of skill training and has worked for some time.

And in realitville, $25/hr doesn't support a family without some real creativity. It's easy to say maybe that person should have trained in another field, but the world needs teachers and first responders.

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Re: I'm obviously not a business person...

[3]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 10:14 AM
    Reply

My minimum-wage job is extra demanding today so I can't even start to respond to all the topics in Tiggity's post, but here's what I'll say to yours real quick:

A company maximizes revenues by picking the point where quantity sold x unit price is at its highest point. Then to figure out profit, you determine quantity sold x cost per unit, and subtract that from the revenue. Anyone remember the lemonade stand computer game? This is from when I was a kid in like 1928. Anyway, when you raise prices, you sell less lemonade, but you might make more money depending on the numbers. (Side-note: Tiggity also referred to people buying the same amount regardless of price, which refers to the elasticity or inelasticity of demand, but there's always some amount of a curve.)

So that's the basic calculus for setting prices. Paying your employees more is a greater cost but can also be a benefit. Otherwise we'd pay every CEO minimum wage. We don't, of course, because employees are on their own form of supply-demand market, and the curve for CEOs puts their price higher up. But successful large companies pay a lot for CEOs because they need them.

If they give their CEO a raise, do they raise their unit price as a result? Not necessarily. You have to go through the above algorithm figure out the right price point based on final profit numbers.

Raising the salary of any other worker requires the same recalculation. But the answer isn't automatically raising unit prices.

OK I said I would reply real quick and I obviously failed. K bye.

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If you see everything as liberal and conservative teams, then You Are What's Wrong With America #YAWWWA


You put it in much better terms in this one post


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 10:19 AM
    Reply

than I did in many posts below.

Which I should state, I'm not saying all products are going to stay the same price. Some will go up, especially those that are more elastic such as what is considered luxury items.

However, the idea that any increase in minimum wage creates an equal increase in product does not know or understand economics beyond what politicians have told them.

That is also rampant in this thread.

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that's good...

[1]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 10:34 AM
    Reply

but I completely understand that aspect of it. Selective raises are made to maintain or improve the product or service. This has to be done to even keep the quality where there is a demand for the good or services.

It doesn't just work for the CEO but other employees. Companies will compete for qualified people, if they are smart.

But not everybody has the skills to be a CEO, or the CFO, or a salesman, or a designer. Those people have studied or learned how to be of specific value. You can't simply pull someone off the street to do that.

A job like working on a production line can be taught to anybody. They can't compete for those better jobs because they do not have the ability or knowledge. When you force a company to pay someone an artificial wage, a wage that is higher than they would actually work for, you also limit that company's ability to offer competitive, selective raises to the skilled employees. Well, unless you are able to get money from somewhere else, like raising the price of the goods or service.

The rich aren't the ones being hurt by this. We are pushing the middle class down and slightly pulling up the lower class.

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What if the company sells more of product A because the


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 10:24 AM
    Reply

entry level employee has more income which does no increase the price? The economy benefits when consumers have more money to spend.

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You get that demand side economics out of here


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 10:31 AM
    Reply

Supply side Jesus only.

Trickle Down Holy Ghost!

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Re: What if the company sells more of product A because the

[1]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 10:42 AM
    Reply

Trying to understand your question - so they raise the entry-level pay but don't raise the price of the product. Yeah, that's great. A win-win. But this seems like hypothetical world and not reality.

What if we pay everybody $80,000 per year and no products go up in price. That would be utopia. Is that possible? I like this hypothetical situation.

But back to your question, I will assume that $15/hr minimum wage will not cause any changes in today's economy. How much more buying power does someone making $15 per hour have to spur on the economy? If you are running a household $31,200 doesn't go very far.

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I'm not necessarily saying I agree, but the argument

[1]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 10:58 AM
    Reply

is that it puts more money in the pocket of consumers who spend it, which increases sales that negates the additional costs.

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This reminds me of the old venture capital joke.

[1]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 11:04 AM
    Reply

"So you want me to invest 1 million in your company"

"Yes"

"So it costs you $5 to make this widget, and you're selling them for $3?"

"That's correct"

"How are we going to make money?"

"Easy,Volume"

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It's good. I'm not just trying to argue ;)


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 11:17 AM
    Reply

I used this example above.

The family run business...

They are forced to pay people more than they would work for so that means their overhead is higher.

And let's say they DO NOT raise their prices to offset the costs.

Where does that money from? You may have raised the status of the minimum wage worker, but you have brought the standard of living down of the family that owns the business.

We act like this action is happening in a vacuum. The small business owner is the middle class. The rich are not affected in the least by this.


While the minimum wage worker may have more to spend, the business owner now has less to spend.

Further, I think it is problematic when the minimum wage increase doesn't really move the employee out of that financial struggle zone.

What if we give more money to people who have no desire to work hard or learn a trade? These people are also TYPICALLY not good with money because it all goes back to personal discipline.

Then, in the same token, take money away from small business owners who are actually producing goods, services, and jobs - making it life harder for them - which logically follows that it is more difficult for them to offer the goods, services, and jobs.

IF no prices are raised, we are basically assuming that giving the poor more money and taking money away from the middle class will be beneficial to the economy BECAUSE OF WHO IS SPENDING THAT MONEY.

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That's why it's called minimum

[1]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 8:47 AM
    Reply

$15/hr puts you just over the poverty level.

Which is the whole point of minimum wage.

Because a working person in this country should be able to LIVE (livable wage) on the wages they earn.

If a business can not afford to pay that worker enough for them to cover the basic necessities of their life without having to be on welfare or work multiple jobs to survive, then that business does not need to be open.

You know, free market capitalism and such.

Set the minimum at $15 and tie it to inflation.

Let the states decide if they want to go up from there.



Love the "stop being a drain on society getting welfare" while at the same time "making enough at your job to be above the poverty line and not need welfare? Preposterous!" from conservatives.

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FB, I’m amazed how often you show your ignorance

[2]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 8:55 AM
    Reply

Re/ financial issues. I’ll give it to you on pallet construction, but that’s about it....


I'm amazed at how old you are but don't remember


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 8:58 AM
    Reply

the whole purpose of the minimum wage

https://www.dol.gov/general/aboutdol/history/flsa1938


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One of two things happens. Money is a zero sum game.


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:03 AM
    Reply

Either a business goes bankrupt because they lose customers and lost the profit margin of a lower minimum wage, OR they increase the price of all goods and services produced to compensate, creating artificial inflation in areas where the poor depend the most. Fast food for example. Wal-Mart gets more expensive. Mandate $15/hr pay, and the price of your Big Mac goes up. The new house you want to build will be smaller OR more expensive. Repairing your roof will cost more. And then when so much that you spend money on increases in cost because the minimum wage increases, you will complain $15 isn't enough, because you're just as "poor".

Not to mention $10/hr goes a long way in SC versus New York. PLUS, you lose the benefit of illegal labor in the US. No party will touch minimum wage. I promise you that. Biden will never do it. Congress will never do it. We had a dem congress, and Obama as President for several years. Why did they never even MENTION minimum wage during that period? BECAUSE THEY CAN'T. WE CAN'T. It's BS to buy your vote, and then it will fade away. Same for Trump's border wall. We had a GOP Congress and Trump in the White House, and funding for a border wall was never mentioned. Dems take over Congress and then suddenly the wall is an issue? We can't afford to lose illegal labor.

This country is being played 6 ways from Sunday, from every angle. And we know it. And Trump is not the answer to that, and neither is Biden.

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- MauldinT
"Tiggi­ty is like finding a high-motor, Dabo five star heart guy. Underrated by the recruiting services, sort of like a Dorian O'Daniel."


Economics is also not just supply and demand


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:09 AM
    Reply

the laws of supply and demand hold true under the Ceteris Paribas assumption meaning "all other things hold constant"

That's not the case here. When wages increase to match cost of living, there are more dollars in pockets meaning more spending. What do these poor people do with their increased amount? They spend it at McDonald's and Walmart.

Which is a main tenant of Economics. Supply and Demand will tend towards equilibrium.

Supply side Jesus hasn't saved us yet.

Yall keep parroting it, but it's just not true.

Wages and Hamburgers, A Pricing History – The American Catholic

https://www.epi.org/publication/minimum-wage-testimony-feb-2019/

https://equitablegrowth.org/factsheet-minimum-wage-increases-are-good-for-u-s-workers-and-the-u-s-economy/

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The world's most expensive Big Mac is sold in the country


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:31 AM
    Reply

with the world's highest minimum wage. Look it up.

You're correct, people have more money in their pockets. Absolutely. And yes, they spend more, at Wal-Mart. BUT, WAL-Mart also spends more putting that money in their pocket. Meaning Wal-Mart increases their price to retain profits (or even profitability sometimes).

The rise of wealth inequality is not caused by this. It's caused by leveraging debt. And the ability to leverage debt depends on low inflation, which depends on cheaper labor, either through illegals and a low minimum wage inside the US, or on cheaper foreign labor with imports (hence our trade deficit). We can't afford to lose either or our economy collapses. That's the problem with debt.

And ultimately our debt is the reason minimum wage will not go to $15/hr if Biden is elected. And it's really the same reason a GOP Congress didn't fund Trump's wall. It's why our trade deficit has not decreased with Trump either. We run on debt. We are literally painted into a corner with it.

And the income inequality and wealth gap ends when our debt is called. It's a 40 year old game we've played, and legislated into existence. It's truly bipartisan. And it doesn't end well.

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- MauldinT
"Tiggi­ty is like finding a high-motor, Dabo five star heart guy. Underrated by the recruiting services, sort of like a Dorian O'Daniel."


Re: The world's most expensive Big Mac is sold in the country


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 10:03 AM
    Reply

You're correct, people have more money in their pockets. Absolutely. And yes, they spend more, at Wal-Mart. BUT, WAL-Mart also spends more putting that money in their pocket. Meaning Wal-Mart increases their price to retain profits (or even profitability sometimes).

You also understand that by increasing demand, or in this case quantity demanded, you can lower or maintain end product costs while still maintaining your profit margin due to the increase in quantity supplied.

Which in Economics we call equilibrium.

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I call it a zero sum game.


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 10:25 AM
    Reply

Poor are still poor. It's all relative. Changes nothing. Fixes nothing.

The country with the most expensive Big Mac just increased their minimum wage to $25 to fight poverty there. The poverty level there is around 8% versus 11% in the US.

11% of the human beings on this planet have zero access to electricity. Just let that sink in. The poverty rate in the US is roughly the same as the rate of human beings without access to electricity.

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- MauldinT
"Tiggi­ty is like finding a high-motor, Dabo five star heart guy. Underrated by the recruiting services, sort of like a Dorian O'Daniel."


Dude, do you even inflation ?

[1]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 10:50 AM
    Reply

TIggity is right about debt leveraging, and you are ignoring that businesses will move to more automation to eliminate workers. A univeral living wage is a better argument than raising the minimum wage.

2020 purple level member

But that's not the debate here


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 10:52 AM
    Reply

The debate here is "is raising the minimum wage to $15 going to set off a windfall of higher product prices"

You're throwing in a completely different economic theory/resolution.

But to your point it needs to be an either/or.

You can't have ULW AND raise MW. It will never happen.

The easiest thing to do, which has historic precedence, is raise MW

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How many people working for minimum wage are...

[1]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:15 AM
    Reply

the sole provider for their family?

The stats show that less than 1% of full-time (35 hrs or more per week) work for minimum wage now.

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I'll throw in anecdotal here because I see it all the time


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:17 AM
    Reply

Mom works 3 jobs at minimum wage. Her 16 year old son has to work as many hours as he possibly can. We still had to buy him school shoes.

I have seen this time and time again.

Nobody in the United States should have to work multiple jobs while making the minimum wage just to make ends meet.

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Why? I mean it's nice that you say that,

[3]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:26 AM
    Reply

but you throw it out like it's some moral truism. If your life path has led you to minimum wage being your ceiling, there's nothing criminal or unethical about having to work multiple jobs.

"Nobody in the United States should have to work multiple jobs while making the minimum wage just to make ends meet" is a nice opinion to have, but as it influences actual policy-making it's about as relevant and arbitrary as "no one in the United States should have a bathtub without jacuzzi jets".

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That was the entire purpose of minimum wage


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:28 AM
    Reply

it's not me saying that, it's the actual purpose of minimum wage

TOP 25 LIVING WAGE QUOTES (of 75) | A-Z Quotes

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It was primarily intended to stabilize the labor market


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:33 AM
    Reply

post-depression, not allow for some arbitrarily determined quality of life.

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I don't see that in there


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:34 AM
    Reply

and it is what it is. A lot of our programs weren't meant for decades, but they are here and many people rely on them to survive.

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You went and did a quick google search for an FDR meme.


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:36 AM
    Reply

Dig deeper and you'll see the economic roots of it as they pertain to the depression,.

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Didn't you say you teach history (may have that wrong)...


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:43 AM
    Reply

point is...you have to dig a little deeper than a quick search on an FDR quote to understand the original purpose of the federal minimum wage.

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Yes I teach this ####, I know the origin of the FLSA


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 10:07 AM
    Reply

back in 1938. I'm saying FDR's reasoning and today's reasoning for increasing MW still holds true even though we are beyond the original purpose of the bill.

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But the economic situation and inputs are completely...

[1]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 10:19 AM
    Reply

different.

The data shows that there are very few single-worker families trying to survive off of a minimum wage job.

There are all kinds of down-side to forcing all states to a much higher minimum wage. It would completely change the dynamics of entry level work.

As has been stated previously, the best thing, from an economic perspective and from a stability perspective is to reduce the number of people willing to work below the minimum wage or do hard/moderate skill work for low wages. That means cracking down on illegal aliens working for low wages. That would allow wages to rise in an economically efficient manner.

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I agree that would if you assume these businesses


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 10:26 AM
    Reply

who hire illegal immigrants would stop doing so after the "crackdown"

Which won't happen.

Then you run into these free-market radicals, commonly called conservatives who will eat you up for daring to punish a business who is just trying to get by.


The most expedient/easiest thing to do is simply start increasing the minimum wage again until it matches inflation.

That's been the policy for a long time until Obama with the last minimum wage increase was in 2009. I don't know why increasing it again then tying it to inflation is now a radical idea.

Which, adjusted for inflation this minimum wage isn't even the highest it's been in previous years. the 1960's saw an inflation equivalent $9/hr minimum wage.

Message was edited by: FBCoachSC®


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I don't agree at all with that...


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 10:48 AM
    Reply

1 - I don't believe "conservatives" condemn cracking down on the hiring of illegal aliens.

2 - I think we have to crack down on employers AND eliminate the supply of illegal alien workers. Hit it from both sides.

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How do you assume that businesses won't stop


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 10:53 AM
    Reply

if the correct punitive measures are put in place? That's strange thinking.

OSHA became a real thing....are workers still walking around unharnessed on skyscraper I-beams or sticking their hands into meat grinders to dislodge a jam?

If the cost of breaking the law becomes higher than the benefit of ignoring it, of course they'll stop hiring illegals.

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Point of order?

[1]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 11:24 AM
    Reply

"OSHA became a real thing....are workers still walking around unharnessed on skyscraper I-beams or sticking their hands into meat grinders to dislodge a jam?"

Yes. Sued a manufacturer for that a couple years ago. It was chicken neck breaker, but the design required my guy to stick his arm under the guard to clear birds pulled off the line. De-gloved his arm.

However, I agree that a legit crackdown on those that hire undocumented immigrants would be a welcome change. You could start by making a list of businesses that aren't doing I-9 EEV's, but have significant workforces.

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I know they exist, fo sho, just like there would never


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 11:26 AM
    Reply

be a scenario where NO ONE ever hired an illegal, but would you agree that we have moved to those scenarios being an exception rather than a norm?

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Well, the existence of worker's comp means that

[1]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 11:32 AM
    Reply

employers have less incentive to protect workers since they have limited liability for injury. But yes, a chicken plant 60 years ago probably didn't have any guards or stop switches or anything else designed to protect workers.

Now, it's more that employers are trying to bypass all those protections to keep the lines running.

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Re: That was the entire purpose of minimum wage


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 10:37 AM
    Reply

I know you did not bring up FDR. He started this mess to begin with.


Bring back indentured servitude.***

[1]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:35 AM
    Reply



2020 white level member

we still have it

[2]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 10:21 AM
    Reply

it's called the NBA

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Cat on a tin roof, dogs in a pile,
Nothin' left to do but smile, smile, smile!!!!


Hey wage expert, tell me this


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:17 AM
    Reply

FBCoachSC®

My son/DIL own and operate a Doggy Day Care in Greenville.
They pay their employees better than Min Wage, but nowhere near $15.
They employ 18 people, 3 of which are supervisory. Almost every employee is 17-20 yrs old, earning $$ for whatever they spend their money on; school expenses, gasoline, etc.

If this business had to pay min wage for all 18, they could not exist.
You have the gall to say they shouldn’t exist if they can’t pay $15?

Your ignorance/stupidity is appalling!


How many of those workers are working there to put food


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:21 AM
    Reply

on the table? How many are having to pay light bills, water bills, etc? Or are these kids who are still funded by their parents and working to make spending money?

If so, that's a false equivalency. I'm talking about the mother who is working multiple jobs at minimum wage while having to make her 16 year old kid work as well so they can keep the lights on. Which I have had multiple kids tell me that if they don't get their hours in this week they won't have lights.

Like I said, if a person can't make it month to month on the minimum wage, then it's no longer the minimum wage.

Message was edited by: FBCoachSC®


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That is irrelevant, they are entry level jobs


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:38 AM
    Reply

Businesses don’t exist to make sure every employee makes a Living Wage.
That varies from person to persons life style.

Businesses exist to make a profit for their owners/investors ONLY.

If you would get your head out of the leftist playbook, you might learn somthing


I'm sure you're a good little mid level manager


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 10:12 AM
    Reply

keep kissing the ### of the CEO's who make 300x your salary.

The idea that if a person works hard they should be able to survive in this country without handouts should be a Republican/Conservative cornerstone. Instead, and this shows how hypocritical the Republican Party has become, they say you have to protect the millionaires and billionaires and hope John Q. Taxpayer can survive month to month while looking down on him for being on food stamps.

If you work a full time job full time in the United States, the richest country on earth, you should be able to pay your minimum bills without being on welfare.

How in the #### is that such a radical leftest statement?

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You are so funny and gullible, cooch!


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 10:28 AM
    Reply

In my highest earning years, I made about 5X to 7X what you now make in a year.
Everyone kisses #sses sometimes, even you. I imagine you kissed the pallet supplier's #ss...


you know, capitalizm and free trade***


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 10:41 AM
    Reply



If she's a hollerer, she'll be a screamer.
If she's a screamer, she'll get you arrested.


Re: That's why it's called minimum

[4]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:26 AM
    Reply

"You know, free market capitalism and such."

Setting an artificial minimum salary is not free market capitalism.

Free market capitalism would say you can open up a business and pay someone $6/hr as out-of-touch Joe seems to think is happening. If you can get someone to work for that and choose to do that, then more power to you. If you don't pay people enough for the job your asking them to do, you won't stay in business.

You also have to remember capitalism says you can also charge whatever you want for a product or service. If your price point isn't good, you aren't going to stay in business.

Several problems with raising the minimum wage to $15/hr:

1) Will someone making $15/hr actually support a family (be a living wage)?

2) Does everyone working a minimum wage type of job need a living wage?

For instance, my son in high school is working at an ice cream shop. He doesn't need to pay any bills. He just wants to pay for gas to go on dates and buy video games.

3) $15/hr in SC is significantly > %15/hr in California.

4) A teacher in Georgia with 15 years of experience makes $47,000 per year which is roughly $24/hr? This is someone who has a college degree. If they get their Master's, it jumps up about to about $26/hr. Is it right that my high school son makes $15/hr working an ice cream shop for spending money?

5) When we raise the fry cook's salary up to $15/hr at McDonald's, Ronald will eventually raise the price of the Big Mac. When businesses begin to adjust the prices of their goods and service based on their new payroll, it begins to negate the intended effect of the wage increase. But worse, the school teacher who didn't get an artificial bump in salary before has less buying power too.



$10/hr, $15/hr, $24/hr, $50/hr means nothing to these millionaire politicians. We could raise the minimum wage to $100/hr and they wouldn't feel it. The problem is we are killing the middle class. It is okay to have entry-level jobs for young people that do not need to care for a family. Besides, $15/hr is not going to do that anyway.

A great idea is to get an education or train in a skill, work hard, pay your dues and don't live in a self-destructive manner. And then, when you get a decent job, maybe you can make ends meet if the politicians don't interfere with your ability to mind your own business.

Even in this pandemic, there are jobs out there. I know many people who are hiring. I have a friend who works in job placement that has 41 entry-level positions making %14-18/hr at a solid company. They can't get anybody to take them.

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Bruh, I'm trying hard to find good help for $20/hour,

[1]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:31 AM
    Reply

and it's incredibly difficult.

Speaking of "free market capitalism"....these feel good efforts like an extra $600/week in unemployment because Covid pretty much put my hiring on hold for half the year. Things like that are just as much of a free market bastardization as some arbitrary minimum wage.

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yep....


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:44 AM
    Reply

I have a dentist friend who was trying to help his employees play the system. He was trying to get them to come in for minimum hours so they could get paid and still collect unemployment, but they were making so much money staying at home, that he couldn't get them to come in and work.

My son's girlfriend who is in high school was making bank on unemployment. She was out of work doing a part-time job doing childcare at the gym.

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Re: That's why it's called minimum


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:32 AM
    Reply

1) Will someone making $15/hr actually support a family (be a living wage)?

I would be open to a "high school wage" or whatever you want to call it. But a person making minimum wage should be able to support their family

2) Does everyone working a minimum wage type of job need a living wage?

YES

For instance, my son in high school is working at an ice cream shop. He doesn't need to pay any bills. He just wants to pay for gas to go on dates and buy video games.

That's nice, but there are MANY kids and adults who do not have that option.

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And it is not a Business Owner's responsibility


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:44 AM
    Reply

to provide that...its the individual's responsibility to get an education that gives that person the ability to command a higher wage.

You just dont get it, cooch....


You're right. I'm not going to understand


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 10:14 AM
    Reply

how the richest country on earth can't increase the minimum wage by $8.50 so that our full time workers in the country can not live in poverty.

Just can't wrap my head around it.

In this country you should be able to work full time and not have to rely on welfare to survive.

I guess that's too much to ask.

Got to make sure we protect CEO's at all costs.

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You just hit the nail on the head, cooch


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 10:23 AM
    Reply

But you got it from Obed...

Get rid of/reduce entitlements and raise min wage together....


I feel like we are closer in thinking than we let on


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 10:29 AM
    Reply

Republicans want to reduce the amount of people on welfare.

The fastest way to do that is to increase the minimum wage.

Minimum wage goes up, welfare goes down.

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No no, they just want people off well fare.


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 10:45 AM
    Reply

They don't want to take off the top to get people there.

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Re: I feel like we are closer in thinking than we let on


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 11:08 AM
    Reply

Someone has done a job on you young man. Min. wage jobs were not meant to be a career they were meant to be a starting point.


Govt doesn't exist to absolve responsibility,

[4]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:49 AM
    Reply

which is a topic you've completely ignored if you had kids while making minimum wage.

That's the real issue here, is we aren't talking about some communist USSR potato and bread-line scenario where options are limited, we're talking about giving people government-sponsored air cover for poor life choices.

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Re: Govt doesn't exist to absolve responsibility,

[3]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:56 AM
    Reply

Not necessarily always poor life decisions.

If we believe that intelligence is distributed along a bell curve, there is a large population of people who, not for any fault of their own, are only qualified to take out garbage, sweep floors, fry potatoes, or any other of the many minimum wage jobs. If these sort of jobs are not enough to support a very modest lifestyle, we all end up subsidizing their employers in a myriad of other ways with expensive and inefficient social support mechanisms.


I would agree with you if we were talking about some give

[1]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:57 AM
    Reply

and take between minimum wage and entitlement spending. Unfortunately we aren't.

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I am all for programs to help those kind of people...


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 10:07 AM
    Reply

I'm not for just handing money over to people.

I see this wrong kind of thinking with my own kids who are just entering the workforce. My oldest son is just not college material (at least right now). He's jumping from job to job for 50 cents here and 50 cents there, often leaving a company that has good benefits and growth potential for a short-term pay benefit.

My daughter is in school seeking an education degree. She had a great job at the school as a para pro, which she was exceptional at, but quit to take a job as a receptionist because of the pay. I'm like, girl, you are getting experience and paying you dues in the field you want to go into.

Trying to convince them that you don't start at the top and the wisdom of working your way up through the system now, while you are under the umbrella of my support, is of greater benefit than jumping from job to job over a dollar is like banging my head against the wall.

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which to me, slightly changing the subject...

[1]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:58 AM
    Reply

is the real issue with the current stimulus bill. I wish Trump wouldn't make it about democrats vs. republicans. Pelosi and company are wanting to throw in money to bail out cities whose government allowed themselves to be burned. I don't want to pay for their poor choices.

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Re: which to me, slightly changing the subject...


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 10:46 AM
    Reply

Me either and some companies call back workers to make their standard wages and not others that are making twice their wages staying @ home. That is just wrong any way you look @ it.


I honestly don't have an issue with helping people...


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:54 AM
    Reply

get to a "living wage." I think that is the true American Dream - life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. We have some real issues.

I'm all for creating programs to help people raise their quality of life. But I disagree that the answer is a blanket minimum wage increase. Again, $15/hr is not a living wage anyway. And I firmly believe it hurts the hardworking middle class in the long run.

Further, we are shooting ourselves in the foot when we teach an entire generation that hard work and education are constructs of a racist society.

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I am ok with getting rid of fast food joints

[2]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:41 AM
    Reply

with the exception of Arbys

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Cat on a tin roof, dogs in a pile,
Nothin' left to do but smile, smile, smile!!!!


Arby's and Schlotskys

[1]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:46 AM
    Reply

Only because Arbys doesnt make muffaleta type sandwiches ;)
Willmo®


Re: Minimum wage ..: thought Trumpster won that one

[1]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 8:53 AM
    Reply

The minimum wage argument by the Dems isn't a good one. Yeah, we get the points about struggling to get by, but raising minimum wage usually leads to higher costs.

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The point is, inflation is increasing either way

[1]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 8:55 AM
    Reply

Many people have the cause and effect wrong.

To many it's Cause: Increase MW, Effect: Inflation.

That's not true.

It's actually Cause: Inflation Effect: Increase MW

https://www.epi.org/publication/raising-the-federal-minimum-wage-to-15-by-2024-would-lift-pay-for-nearly-40-million-workers/#:~:text=In%202018%2C%20the%20federal%20minimum,of%20%2410.15%20in%202018%20dollars.

2020 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg


Re: Minimum wage ..: thought Trumpster won that one

[1]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:01 AM
    Reply

So maybe we should lower minimum wage to $1 per hour.

2020 white level member

Chinese sweat shops have the right idea

[1]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:02 AM
    Reply

let's get rid of these pesky child labor laws too. That'll bring down the price of goods.

Child Labor Laws Are Ruining This Country

Message was edited by: FBCoachSC®


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Not arguing that.

[2]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:05 AM
    Reply

I'm also not pretending I have the good answer to this. But if we crank it up to $15, does it help in a lot of areas? Sure. But do costs go up? That too. And while I feel filthy having to agree with Trump and ChemTrail, $15 goes a lot farther in some places than others.

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Re: Not arguing that.


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:12 AM
    Reply

I agree . It depends where one lives.

2020 white level member

Increased money in pockets causes increased spending


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:13 AM
    Reply

which covers business loss of payroll costs while also increasing margins through increased sales.

It's really not that difficult.

I forgot the term for it but the example is, you give $5000 to somebody in poverty, they are going to use that money to pay bills, buy groceries, etc. The exchange of goods and services increases. You give the money to somebody who doesn't need it, say somebody already making $30/hr, they are going to put it in their savings and it will sit there. It won't move.

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instead of savings


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:15 AM
    Reply

They might invest in stocks or bonds which puts the money to use the same as spending

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Possibly. But stocks and bonds don't help


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:24 AM
    Reply

mom and pop stores on main street.

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But unless you've got some start up or a company


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:40 AM
    Reply

looking to raise capital, buying these stocks likely just put more money into an already rich person's pocket.

Trickle down economic is a noble concept, but somewhere high on the org chart somebody replaces the colander with a bowl so it doesn't work.

Now, if you get the rich folks to let go of some of their money for a few years send it right to the bottom, it is likely to gush back up.

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huh?

[1]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:46 AM
    Reply

Are you telling me that a millionaire gets different returns buying the same stocks and bonds that you do?

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No, what I'm saying is all that money isn't really going


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:52 AM
    Reply

back into the economy unless somebody takes that cash and goes to spend it.

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higher min wage = more homeless

[2]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 8:54 AM
    Reply

In cities like seattle and portland

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Re: Minimum wage ..: thought Trumpster won that one


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:06 AM
    Reply

supports illegal immigration
doesnt understand why people cant get $15/hour

thats not dementia

just another crooked politician

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Everybody worried about

[1]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:12 AM
    Reply

homelessness, cost of goods, etc with an increase in minimum wage, what is your answer?

How do we get housing, food, and medical costs down so that $10.00 or so an hour is good? I don't have those answers but anybody logging a 40 hr work week ought to be able to support themselves.

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It's just a way to buy votes. "Vote for me and you'll

[1]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:31 AM
    Reply

get a $5/hour raise!" (Leaving out the fact that you might be one of the people laid off when an employer decides he can't afford to pay higher salaries.)

One thing I remember from my Clemson Economics class...increase the minimum wage and employers will employee fewer people and make them work harder.

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FBC et al arguing for min wage hike, here's the real poop.

[3]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:44 AM
    Reply

You know why so many American workers hover around the minimum wage? Illegals who gladly work jobs of that caliber (or worse, work slave wages well under that amount) and serve to keep the US wage floor much lower it would be without their presence.

THAT is the biggest artificial variable you have skewing the economics of how much Americans get paid for what jobs.

You crack down on illegal employment, employers are forced to pay more for actual citizens to do the jobs currently handled by illegals or immigrant workers, and wages go up across the spectrum.

If you're arguing for an increase in the minimum wage then you are logically incongruent if you are against what I just proposed, because the effect on the labor market, cost of goods sold, and inflation aren't that different.

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That is a great point, Obed.

[1]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:48 AM
    Reply

Some of the financial ignorance in this thread is apalling!


What do we do about that.

[1]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:57 AM
    Reply

Do we start to flat destroy the companies that hire illegals and pay them less?

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If your business model has hiring illegals at its core,

[1]
Posted: Oct 23, 2020 9:58 AM
    Reply

then yes, it might be worth considering whether it's a viable business model in the scenario I described.

2020 orange level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpg


More likely hiring illegals and paying


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 10:07 AM
    Reply

#### wages makes some guy have a million or two extra that they could never actually spend.

I'm far more agreeable to hurting the people that pay the poor wages than I am to people who agree to work for them.

badge-donor-05yr.jpg

Re: FBC et al arguing for min wage hike, here's the real poop.


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 10:43 AM
    Reply

If you run a business that requires more unskilled labor, these last several years have been a major challenge from an employment pool standpoint, and thus a drag on those businesses. Honestly, the last 4 - 4.5% of the unemployment number are virtually unemployable people. They're in that spot for a reason, and most should honestly just stay there. It's cheaper for our economy as a whole to support them at a minimal level than to insert them into industry and pay for it through lost productivity.

That leads to immigration, which historically is what has propelled our economy forward. We need, simply, an immigration bill and laws that allow for it in ways that provide the labor this country needs to expand, as well as checks that help prevent the financial challenges on the lower end of the pay spectrum. We pay for it either way in prices or subsidies.

So, remove the "illegal" from immigration in many areas, penalize businesses that employ immigrants outside of the law, and get on with it. Trump had an opportunity to pass a comprehensive immigration bill in his first two years but he told the bi-partisan committee that crafted it to stuff it. That would have been a GOP-driven bill ultimately. Now it looks like the whole shebang will shift Democratic, and it will thus be a Democratic-driven bill up ahead. Or just keep kicking the issue down the road to the courts due to inability to compromise.

Minimum wage laws are a two-edged sword. As a taxpayer I don't appreciate subsidizing private business to operate and make profits due to underpaying their employees. On the other hand I don't want to pay higher prices. The conservative in me though prefers this latter route as it's a truer reflection of the free market at work.

There's a happy medium to be found I'm sure - tying minimum wages to geographic costs of living that balances the process out, and gradually phasing these in. This is a more likely outcome of a Biden Admin and Democratic-controlled Congress than the flat $15 / hour everywhere that's being campaigned on.

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There shouldn't be any minimum wage laws.


Posted: Oct 23, 2020 10:59 AM
    Reply

It should all be predicated on market dynamics.

If someone offers $2 per hour to rake leaves and has someone willing to take it, then both folks are happy.

Let the market set minimum wage, not some arbitrary number put out by a bureaucrat...

2020 white level memberbadge-donor-15yr.jpg


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