Replies: 52
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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Maybe you can replace these voters with an illegal aliens.
Jun 16, 2020, 7:35 AM
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I suggest you not pick around the edges here but try to feel your way through the middle so you can understand her main point, especially when she expresses what she feels her people are about.
https://twitter.com/jason_howerton/status/1272627125938532352
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All-In [38191]
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Re: Maybe you can replace these voters with an illegal aliens.
Jun 16, 2020, 7:45 AM
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Lot o points [155907]
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Good God almighty I want to give that woman a hug.
Jun 16, 2020, 7:48 AM
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Finally seeing through the BS narrative of the “big party switch”.
The Titanic is turning. Slowly and methodically, but it’s turning.
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All-In [34108]
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Re: Good God almighty I want to give that woman a hug.
Jun 16, 2020, 7:53 AM
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Obed, you're smarter than that. Exactly what narrative does this twitter video finally disapprove?
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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It disproves the myth that all blacks are...
Jun 16, 2020, 7:58 AM
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blinded by the cries of 'racist,' that is directed at the republican party.
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Lot o points [155907]
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All-In [34108]
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So you're saying politicians didn't actually switch parties?
Jun 16, 2020, 12:17 PM
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That's just a "narrative" and not real?
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Lot o points [155907]
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that is overblown BS and always has been.
Jun 16, 2020, 12:36 PM
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Yes, there was some transfer on both sides, but the left’s narrative that the Racist Democrats all became Republicans and the equality loving Lincoln Republicans all became Democrats is nothing more than a marketing fable meant to hide the Democrat’s shame for their party’s history.
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All-In [49046]
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No it isn't...
Jun 16, 2020, 12:47 PM
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Plenty of democrat racists stayed behind and toed the party line for civil rights while maintaining their racist attitudes, but the party shift was real and the issue shift was as well. It's certainly more complicated than just a sudden event, but Trump, and the republican party to a lesser extent continues to court and receive support from groups that are anti-black.
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Lot o points [155907]
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Stats suggest otherwise.
Jun 16, 2020, 12:49 PM
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There are at least three solid ones in this thread already.
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Oculus Spirit [83119]
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Lot o points [155907]
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It's not confusing man, I promise.
Jun 16, 2020, 5:16 PM
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The mass exodus of racist Dems to the Pubs and Woke Pubs to the Dems at a party representation level just didn't happen in any significant numbers. Furthermore, for every significant Civil Rights bill of the 60's the Republicans voted (as a percent of the party) in far higher percentages for them than Democrats did.
What held steady with the electorate was that the Democrats were always the favorite of the working poor, and the Republicans trended better with the more affluent. This is the primary explanation of Dems owning the South prior to the 60's. What happened, more than race, to influence voting patterns was that better jobs and industry came to the south, and the rising affluence in the South led to more Republican votes. Poor whites kept voting Democrat in very similar numbers post-Civil Rights Act as they did before, and that didn't shift until well after the effect of the CRA would be far in the rearview mirror.
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Lot o points [155907]
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Joe, Ford, Cock2011.......I've enjoyed it.
Jun 16, 2020, 5:40 PM
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Sorry if I get over the top but this topic is important to me. Glad to discuss further but it's almost 5 here and I have 2 hours of work to fit in about 30 minutes. Will be on later to reply to anything that comes up. Cheers.
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Oculus Spirit [83119]
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Lot o points [155907]
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I get the racist aspects of Wallace supporters, although he
Jun 16, 2020, 10:37 PM
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had a hefty share of the Northern blue-collar union vote as well via his populist platform (and it's pretty significant that he didn't win SC and TN). I don't see how his results mark a racist shift to the Republicans though--if anything it's making my point...more of the same. The man was a Democrat his entire life (and was doing quite well in the Democratic primary in 1972 until he was shot--he could have won the nomination) and only ran as an Independent in 68 to force the election to the House of Representatives (also Democrat led---why would he feel good about his chances there if the racists weren't still strong in the party?).
Nixon in 1968 had already begun courting the well-off southerners. It clearly alienated Texas, but worked in the Sunbelt and in parts of the deep south. Then it paid off big time in 1972. There was little to nothing, to my knowledge that was remotely racist about Nixon's platform. He supported the civil rights and voting acts, and the South embraced him in 1972.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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Oculus Spirit [83119]
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All-In [34108]
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No Obed hug for you***
Jun 16, 2020, 12:32 PM
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All-In [49046]
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Lot o points [155907]
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You know that out of the 25-ish Dixiecrats, a party
Jun 16, 2020, 12:48 PM
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Based on preserving segregation, only three went to the GOP when the Dixiecrats disbanded post civil-rights reform, right? Storm was indeed one. The rest returned to the Democrats. No shift.
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All-In [49046]
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But those 25 aren't the only people who were democrats
Jun 16, 2020, 1:01 PM
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Party switchers in the 60's and 70's
1960–1969 1960s – Arthur Ravenel Jr., South Carolina State Representative, later U.S. Representative from South Carolina (1987–1995) 1960 – Claude R. Kirk Jr., later Governor of Florida (1967–1971) 1960 – Charlton Lyons 1962 – Dave Treen, later U.S. Representative from Louisiana (1973–1980) and Governor of Louisiana (1980–1984) 1962 – Jack M. Cox, former Texas State Representative 1962 – James D. Martin, later U.S. Representative from Alabama (1965–1967) 1962 – Ronald Reagan, while an actor and former Screen Actors Guild president.[11] Later 33rd Governor of California (1967-1975) and 40th President of the United States (1981–1989) 1962 – Floyd Spence, South Carolina State Representative, later a U.S. Representative from South Carolina (1971–2001) 1963 – Rubel Phillips, former Mississippi Public Service Commissioner 1963 – Stanford Morse, Mississippi State Senator 1963 – James H. Boyce 1964 – Alfred Goldthwaite, Alabama State Representative 1964 – Clarke Reed 1964 – Howard Callaway, later U.S. Representative from Georgia (1965–1967) and United States Secretary of the Army (1973–1975) [12] 1964 – Iris Faircloth Blitch, former Georgia U.S. Representative (1955–1963) 1964 – Charles W. Pickering, later Mississippi State senator and judge of the United States District Court for the Southern District of Mississippi (2004) 1964 – Strom Thurmond, while U.S. senator from South Carolina (1954–2003).[13] 1965 – Albert W. Watson, while U.S. Representative from South Carolina (1963–1971) (resigned before switching parties and regained his seat in a special election)[14] 1965 – Roderick Miller, Louisiana State Representative 1966 – Marshall Parker, South Carolina State Senator 1966 – Joseph O. Rogers Jr., South Carolina State Representative 1966 – Thomas A. Wofford, former U.S. Senator from South Carolina (1956) 1966 – Len E. Blaylock, later U.S. Marshal for the Eastern District of Arkansas (1975–1978) 1966 – Jerry Thomasson, Arkansas State Representative 1966 – Henry Grover, Texas State Representative 1967 – Thad Cochran, later U.S. Senator from Mississippi (1978–2018) 1967 – William E. Dannemeyer, later U.S. Representative from California (1979–1992) 1967 – Allison Kolb, former Louisiana State Auditor (1952–1956) 1968 – William Reynolds Archer Jr., while a Texas State Senator, later U.S. Representative from Texas (1971–2001) 1968 – Will Wilson, former attorney general of Texas (1957–1963) 1968 – James L. Bentley, Comptroller General of Georgia (1963–1971) 1968 – Gerald J. Gallinghouse, later United States Attorney for the Eastern District of Louisiana (1970–1978) 1970–1979 1970 – Jesse Helms, later U.S. Senator from North Carolina (1973–2003) 1970 – A. C. Clemons, Louisiana State Senator 1970 – William Oswald Mills, later U.S. Representative from Maryland (1971–1973) 1970 – Bob Barr, later U.S. Representative from Georgia (1995–2003) 1971 – Tillie K. Fowler, later U.S. Representative from Florida (1993–2001) 1972 – Ed Karst, Mayor of Alexandria 1972 – Robert R. Neall 1972 – Trent Lott, later U.S. Representative from Mississippi (1973–1989) and U.S. Senator from Mississippi (1989–2007)[15] 1973 – Mills E. Godwin Jr., former governor of Virginia (1966–1970) and Lieutenant Governor of Virginia (1962–1966). Later Governor of Virginia (1974–1978) 1973 – Samuel I. Hayakawa, later U.S. Senator from California (1977–1983) [16] 1973 – John Connally, former United States Secretary of the Treasury (1971–1972) and former governor of Texas (1963–1969) 1975 – Elizabeth Dole, later United States Secretary of Transportation (1983–1987), United States Secretary of Labor (1989–1990) and U.S. Senator from North Carolina (2003–2009) 1975 – John Jarman, while U.S. Representative from Oklahoma (1951–1977)[17] 1976 – Rob Couhig 1977 – A. J. McNamara, Louisiana State Representative 1977 – Lane Carson, Louisiana State Representative 1978 – Robert G. Jones, Louisiana State Senator 1978 – Chris Smith, later U.S. Representative from New Jersey (1981–present).[18] 1978 – Thomas Bliley, Mayor of Richmond, Virginia, and later U.S. Representative from Virginia (1981–2001) 1978 – Michael F. "Mike" Thompson, Louisiana State Representative 1979 – Charles Grisbaum Jr., Louisiana State Representative 1979 – Ed Scogin, Louisiana State Representative 1979 – Armistead I. Selden Jr., former U.S. Representative from Alabama (1953–1969) and United States Ambassador to New Zealand (1974–1979)
And the issue shift was real:
Up until the post-World War II period, the party’s hold on the region was so entrenched that Southern politicians usually couldn’t get elected unless they were Democrats. But when President Harry S. Truman, a Democratic Southerner, introduced a pro-civil rights platform at the party’s 1948 convention, a faction walked out.
These defectors, known as the “Dixiecrats,” held a separate convention in Birmingham, Alabama. There, they nominated South Carolina Governor Strom Thurmond, a staunch opposer of civil rights, to run for president on their “States’ Rights” ticket. Although Thurmond lost the election to Truman, he still won over a million popular votes.
It “was the first time since before the Civil War that the South was not solidly Democratic,” Goldfield says. “And that began the erosion of the southern influence in the Democratic party.”
After that, the majority of the South still continued to vote Democratic because it thought of the Republican party as the party of Abraham Lincoln and Reconstruction. The big break didn’t come until President Johnson, another Southern Democrat, signed the Civil Rights Act in 1964 and the Voting Rights Act in 1965.
Govenor Strom Thurmond of South Carolina, was nominated as States' Right candidate at the rump convention held in Birmingham on by southern recalcitrants. The Southerners took this drastic action after the Democratic convention added President Truman's civil rights program of its party platform. (Credit: Bettmann/Getty Images) Govenor Strom Thurmond of South Carolina, was nominated as States’ Right candidate at the rump convention held in Birmingham on by southern recalcitrants. The Southerners took this drastic action after the Democratic convention added President Truman’s civil rights program of its party platform. (Credit: Bettmann/Getty Images)
Though some Democrats had switched to the Republican party prior to this, “the defections became a flood” after Johnson signed these acts, Goldfield says. “And so the political parties began to reconstitute themselves.”
The change wasn’t total or immediate. During the late 1960s and early ‘70s, white Southerners were still transitioning away from the Democratic party (newly enfranchised black Southerners voted and continue to vote Democratic). And even as Republican Richard Nixon employed a “Southern strategy” that appealed to the racism of Southern white voters, former Alabama Governor George Wallace (who’d wanted “segregation now, segregation tomorrow, and segregation forever”) ran as a Democrat in the 1972 presidential primaries.
By the time Ronald Reagan became president in 1980, the Republican party’s hold on white Southerners was firm. Today, the Republican party remains the party of the South. It’s an ironic outcome considering that a century ago, white Southerners would’ve never considered voting for the party of Lincoln.
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All-In [49046]
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Am I the only person that didn't know Pence was
Jun 16, 2020, 1:06 PM
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a democrat until the 80's?
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110%er [7207]
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Re: But those 25 aren't the only people who were democrats
Jun 16, 2020, 1:18 PM
[ in reply to But those 25 aren't the only people who were democrats ] |
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There's a bunch of good stuff about the history of the Republican platform too, like adding sticking point issues such as abortion and gun control because they couldn't win focusing on more salient issues. Throw in operation REDMAP and you start to see why we can't accomplish things that an overwhelming majority of Americans agree with, for example climate change.
I really wish I had more time to read about the history of party politics and even the narrative around more granular issues.
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Lot o points [155907]
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Broseph, what in the world is this list?
Jun 16, 2020, 4:08 PM
[ in reply to But those 25 aren't the only people who were democrats ] |
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Ronald Reagan? It’s well known that his switch was based on a staunch anti-communist bent, and a belief that Kennedy would take us that way.
Bob Barr? He was in grad school in 1970 and his only switch ever was Republican to Libertarian.
Trent Lott? He never ran for office as anything other than a Republican to my knowledge.
I haven’t had time to scrub the rest but those three just jumped right out at me. This is in no way, shape, or form “evidence” of a mass racially based defection.
This list is just noise.....I literally handed you 45-ish key Dixiecrats and Democrats who had CRA opposition at the forefront of their actions, and made the conscious decision to switch to Democrat or stay Democrat. That’s meaningful data. Someone else pointed out the (correct) stat that more Dems voted against it than Pubs....and then didn’t defect. That’s meaningful data. Johnson himself, great proponent of equality that he was, referred to the CRA as the “N.....r Bill”.
If you want a good read on the causation of voting pattern changes amongst Southern voters, here is one for you. Been 9-10 years since I read it but I may do so again. https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674032491
Bottom line, this giant party change is a fraud and a myth.....I’ve had this debate with several on here before and I won’t stop because it’s a sham.
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Oculus Spirit [83119]
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You’re wrong and I think what you’re missing is that
Jun 16, 2020, 4:22 PM
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most of the exodus occurred on the state and local level. In 1960, you’d be hard pressed to find a Republican in Edgefield’s local govt. Today, there are hardly any white Democrats left. I’d guess it’s the same in almost every small town in the South.
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Lot o points [155907]
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Your ancedotal observation doesn’t overturn my
Jun 16, 2020, 4:26 PM
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Directly correlated data, and in the post you just replied to, I listed a book you are welcome to read (by fairly liberal authors) that outlines the true economic changes that had a bigger hand in voting shifts in places like Edgefield than race ever did.
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Oculus Spirit [83119]
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It’s more than an anecdotal observation. Name one state
Jun 16, 2020, 4:52 PM
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legislature in the South that didn’t shift from Dem to GOP control between 1960 and 1990.
And I’m sure race wasn’t the only reason but it contributed more than any other reason.
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Lot o points [155907]
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Wait, you're carrying this whacky shift theory up through 90
Jun 16, 2020, 5:31 PM
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As if there was some Dem somewhere who really hated blacks and resented the CRA, but bottled it up inside him until 20 years after the bill had been passed? C'mon.... I hope we can agree that if there were major organizational and ideological shifts between the parties based on the efforts of the 60's, they would have been felt by the 70's at the latest.
Reagan had a TON to do with the shift to the GOP in the south....social conservatism, hawkish against a rising and ominously portrayed USSR, unapologetic patriotism.....the Reagan coalition was massive, and if you think that large a percent of the electorate was voting on white supremacy, you're more cynical than I give you credit for. Put John Anderson in as the Pub Candidate in 1980 and the South still might be heavily Democrat.
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All-In [49046]
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Arthur Ravenel...
Jun 16, 2020, 4:26 PM
[ in reply to Broseph, what in the world is this list? ] |
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Floyd Spence Charles Pickering - In the early 1960s, Pickering was active in the Democratic Party, but he switched affiliation in 1964 to the Mississippi Republican Party. At the time, Pickering said that “the people of his state were heaped with humiliation and embarrassment at the Democratic Convention” in Atlantic City, New Jersey. At the convention, African Americans, who had been disenfranchised in the Deep South except during Reconstruction, formed the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party to challenge the party regulars. A month before the convention, U.S. President Lyndon B. Johnson signed the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
Strom
Jesse Helms
Trent Lott -While an undergraduate at the University of Mississippi, Lott participated in the effort at the 1964 national convention of the Sigma Nu fraternity to oppose a civil rights amendment proposed by the Dartmouth College and Duke University chapters to end mandatory racial exclusion by the fraternity. Lott sided with the segregationists who defeated the amendment. The Dartmouth chapter subsequently seceded from the fraternity, and Sigma Nu remained whites-only until later in the decade. Lott worked for William Colmer - a conservative democrat - in DC before running as a republican to replace him when he resigned.
This is just a freaking sample, but the issue shift had a considerable impact on the southern democratic party. Note, I'm not saying all the racists left, I'm saying the ones that didn't had to, at least publicly, change their tune on race relations.
And the book you cited doesn't discount the race factor, it just suggests it wasn't the only factor as economic shifts contributed as well. But suggesting that race wasn't a primary driver of the change is just wrong.
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Lot o points [155907]
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No the book directly points out, in great detail,
Jun 16, 2020, 4:33 PM
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Why race was a secondary, if not tertiary factor and economic shifts were far and away the primary driver.
As for Trent Lott, nothing you posted suggests he held office as a dem and switched to a Pub due to CRA items. If you want me to say he wasn’t a racist, I’m afraid I can’t, but that’s sort of my point.....both parties had their fair share. There was no mass swap of good people to the Dems and Racists to the Pubs like the modern day telling of the story would have you believe.
I’ll give the Dems one thing, whoever devised this story is a freaking genius. I can’t imagine sitting around the strategy session trying to come up with a way to convince Black America that the party of Lincoln is now their enemy, and the party of Jackson is now their best friend, but here we are.
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All-In [49046]
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Not only did they make it all up...
Jun 16, 2020, 10:38 PM
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They convinced almost all historians of it.
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110%er [7207]
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Re: Maybe you can replace these voters with an illegal aliens.
Jun 16, 2020, 8:01 AM
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You see what happened was the parties didn't change their platform, the southern people moved north and the northern people moved south (wait what?) and so that's why something something. I like how she threw that "and also black people don't really support the LBGT community" in there ftw.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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I asked you not to pick at the edges.
Jun 16, 2020, 8:09 AM
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If you're so naive as to think that bit of confusion negates what the lady says then carry on in the dark. You'll figure it how someday.
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110%er [7207]
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Naive?
Jun 16, 2020, 8:17 AM
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I'm not the one saying "It's a great point, just don't fact check it."
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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My bad.
Jun 16, 2020, 8:30 AM
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I'm sorry about that. I know that what she said about people moving north and south was not technically correct.
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110%er [7207]
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Re: My bad.
Jun 16, 2020, 8:49 AM
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Here's some fun trivia to try and explain the shift in party platform: the vote on the Civil Right Act.
House Southern Dems - 7 in favor 87 against Southern Pubs - 0 in favor 10 against Northern Dems - 145 in favor 9 against Northern Pubs - 138 in favor 24 against
Senate Southern Dems - 1 in favor 20 against Southern Pubs - 0 in favor 1 against Northern Dems - 45 in favor 1 against Northern Pubs - 27 in favor 5 against
Southern here is the 11 states that made up the Confederacy, hooray states rights.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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Re: My bad.
Jun 16, 2020, 10:05 AM
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SO, totals are 117 dems against the civil rights bill with only 40 pubs against it?
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110%er [7207]
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Re: My bad.
Jun 16, 2020, 10:44 AM
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That's the takeaway, not that there was a long period of time where both parties had members with diverse positions.
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Lot o points [155907]
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Of the 21 senate dems who voted against it, wanna
Jun 16, 2020, 12:43 PM
[ in reply to Re: My bad. ] |
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Guess how many switched parties?
2
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110%er [7207]
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Re: Of the 21 senate dems who voted against it, wanna
Jun 16, 2020, 1:51 PM
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Hard to switch parties when you're no longer a politician.
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Lot o points [155907]
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No, they didn’t just say “I quit” after the CRA.
Jun 16, 2020, 3:42 PM
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That would be convenient though.
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110%er [7207]
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Re: No, they didn’t just say “I quit” after the CRA.
Jun 16, 2020, 4:13 PM
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More like they were fired.
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Lot o points [155907]
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Whatever helps you sleep amigo.***
Jun 16, 2020, 4:21 PM
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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Having been alive and cognitive during the civil rights...
Jun 16, 2020, 7:39 PM
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era I can testify that democrats fought against the bill in droves. When Johnson said 'We'll have the negro vote for the next 100 years,' the dems then took many giant steps to the left and claimed the legislation for their own since Johnson had the last signature on the bill.
Since, republicans have been steadily drawn toward the left but our position on civil rights has not changed. No, there was no switching of parties. As you said, that is a lie designed to fool the masses of blacks which the democrats voted to deny civil rights.
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Athletic Dir [881]
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Illegal aliens don’t have time to vote
Jun 16, 2020, 8:07 AM
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They are working 12 hour days picking your food, processing your meat, drywalling your houses, and every other job that Americans are too ####### lazy or think they are too ####### good to do.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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If you ignore the systemic racism of America's...
Jun 16, 2020, 8:14 AM
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immigration policy then you are ignoring the fact that cheap labor from Mexico has depressed the wages of the unskilled so drastically that it's more economic to live in gov housing on food stamps than work. Yes, our immigration policy is racist toward all unskilled workers and just as the cash bail system it oppresses the poorest among us which is sorely disproportionate to the AA community.
I've never accused the left of understanding a simple supply and demand curve.
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Athletic Dir [881]
TigerPulse: 57%
Posts: 2125
Joined: 2/3/12
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Immigrants have always filled the entry level jobs
Jun 16, 2020, 8:29 AM
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It goes way back before we had immigration quotas. Why did we need Chinese immigrants to build the railroads? Why did we need all the slovaks and hungarians to mine coal?
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95419
Joined: 12/25/09
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Oppression has always happened so why complain now?
Jun 16, 2020, 8:31 AM
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You justify our sins today by our sins of the past?
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All-In [40932]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 42953
Joined: 11/30/98
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Oculus Spirit [83119]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 80157
Joined: 11/29/99
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Nice to see a different view from blacks, but
Jun 16, 2020, 12:21 PM
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what she said is just as dumb as things blacks say who are on the far left fringe.
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Legend [15749]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 17372
Joined: 2/1/99
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I give credit to the woman she's speaking to. She obviously
Jun 16, 2020, 1:39 PM
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has a different view, which would lead to the woman speaking being so exasperated. But she stood quietly and truly seemed to be listening respectfully, even though I'm sure she wanted to interrupt her with counterarguments.
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Hall of Famer [22945]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 16896
Joined: 12/2/00
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Her best points are about 'party' policy
Jun 16, 2020, 5:33 PM
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Why should the black-lives protestors also need to fully support LGBTQ? Where's the space fiscal conservatives but socially liberal ... or vice versa? How will a Democrat convince an Iowa farmer to vote for their party when the most vocal causes are outside the Iowans comfort zone.
It's beyond ridiculous that people affiliated with a political party feel the need to believe 100% on every platform of that party. The term RINO become offensive. People that 100% don't support the million different causes the Democratic party adds each day don't have a voice and are shamed.
There should be more people in the middle that sway right or left depending on the topic instead of this constant tribalism on both sides.
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Standout [347]
TigerPulse: 84%
Posts: 1062
Joined: 7/1/19
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Luckily illegals can’t vote!***
Jun 16, 2020, 9:39 PM
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Replies: 52
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