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Topic: If you attended Clemson...you participated in a socialist program.
Replies: 64   Last Post: Apr 2, 2019 4:10 PM by: JeffersonStTiger
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If you attended Clemson...you participated in a socialist program.


Posted: Mar 31, 2019 4:24 PM
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I’ll hang up and wait for the responses. But first remember...the state of South Carolina and the US govt taxes everyone (in theory) to benefit those who can’t pay for some or all of their education.

I don’t see any of you clamoring to cut funding to Clemson. Or the military. Or National Parks. Or the highway system.

So we aren’t really talking about IF socialism is a good idea, but rather how much socialism is enough.


Don't you wish you made sense?

[3]
Posted: Mar 31, 2019 4:40 PM
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To anyone outside that Ping Pong Table of a brain of yours?

-Nikola Tesla

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I've been wrong two times, but this isn't one of them.


I wish for once you’d use facts.


Posted: Apr 2, 2019 4:10 PM
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All you do is insult people without facts. The actual Tesla is rolling over in his grave.


Re: If you attended Clemson...you participated in a socialist program.

[1]
Posted: Mar 31, 2019 4:49 PM
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This is a really really bad troll job. Like, real bad.

2019 orange level member


gawd not this tired gotcha meme again.

[4]
Posted: Mar 31, 2019 4:58 PM
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Government expenditures =/= socialism.

A government performing govt functions (military, national parks, infrastructure) is not socialism.

A socialist system does not generally contain competing capitalistic alternatives. People going to Clemson (or any other school) have a multitude of private alternatives.

The federal/state govt doesn’t own the “means of production” at Clemson. Clemson is very much largely self-governed and administrated.

Social media is a poor choice from which to learn the ins and outs of socialist constructs.

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Re: gawd not this tired gotcha meme again.


Posted: Mar 31, 2019 7:31 PM
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lol public education is most certainly socialist.

If capitalists had their way the majority of people would remain uneducated.

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"Smelley, Garcia, and Beecher are going to lead you to 4-8." - york_tiger


LOL

[3]
Posted: Mar 31, 2019 8:30 PM
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If capitalists had their way they’d create private schools where they can create higher standards with better personnel. Oh wait....


Yea, then you’d have a bunch of schools like Univ. of

[2]
Posted: Mar 31, 2019 8:57 PM
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Phoenix and ITT Tech seeing who could make the biggest profit.

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So private schools are Phoenix and ITT Tech but not

[3]
Posted: Mar 31, 2019 11:12 PM
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MIT, Stanford, Yale, Princeton, Harvard, Chicago, Penn, Columbia, Notre Dame, Duke, Southern Cal, Georgetown, Johns Hopkins and Vanderbilt?

You guys...

null


Re: So private schools are Phoenix and ITT Tech but not


Posted: Apr 1, 2019 8:41 AM
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Most of those schools are run by socialists these days.

Especially Harvard and Vanderbilt, if your household income is below x, you don’t pay tuition.

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"Smelley, Garcia, and Beecher are going to lead you to 4-8." - york_tiger


interesting......

[1]
Posted: Apr 1, 2019 9:05 AM
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Here I thought Vandy was a privately held institution with tuition grants that were funded by a 700M endowment arbitrarily funded by willing and generous donors.

Now you’re telling me that it’s owned by the state or a collective of students who also have their tuition reapportioned across the student body.

Either I learned something new today or you’re just continuing the bastardization of the term “socialism”.

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I'm not quite that sophisticated.

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Posted: Apr 1, 2019 9:21 AM
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I think he's simply ignorant to the point of confusing truth with lies.

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$700B?

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Posted: Apr 1, 2019 9:22 AM
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I had no idea Vandy was a bigger country than Sweden.

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I edited, sorry, 700M. Smartass***

[1]
Posted: Apr 1, 2019 9:26 AM
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Re: interesting......


Posted: Apr 1, 2019 10:59 AM
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You would think at some point you would learn your position is illogical when you have to consistently be disingenuous in your arguments.

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"Smelley, Garcia, and Beecher are going to lead you to 4-8." - york_tiger


That's a really solid point,


Posted: Apr 1, 2019 2:36 PM
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provided you show the part where I was disingenuous.

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They’re private. Everything else you wrote is irrelevant.***


Posted: Apr 1, 2019 10:09 AM
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null


No, those are for profit schools. The ones


Posted: Apr 1, 2019 9:38 AM
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you listed are non-profit.

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Correct. Private.***


Posted: Apr 1, 2019 10:06 AM
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null


You been to Clemson lately?


Posted: Apr 1, 2019 9:20 AM
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I can assure you, they aren't distributing all of that money they're raking in back to the poor.

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But it has to be put back into school not into


Posted: Apr 1, 2019 10:06 AM
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an owner’s pockets.

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They also take federal dollars***


Posted: Apr 1, 2019 12:21 AM
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no, they all don’t.***


Posted: Apr 1, 2019 9:05 AM
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They don’t take Pell Grant, FSEOG, Federal Work Study


Posted: Apr 1, 2019 9:41 AM
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and Direct Loan funds?

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Lemme clarify......this thread is all over the place.


Posted: Apr 1, 2019 9:47 AM
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09 referenced "public education", which rarely refers to tertiary education, which is what Jefferson started the thread referencing. ZJ replied to the "public education post".

I stayed with that, and yes, there are many, many private primary and secondary education schools in the US who take no federal funding.

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Ironically, your point implodes when it’s noted


Posted: Mar 31, 2019 10:13 PM
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That most who go through the “socialist” public education system emerge largely uneducated.

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Seems that the capitalist had their way with you


Posted: Mar 31, 2019 11:54 PM
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that an you being a coot = Whoa.., uh, just Wow, dude. Get a life!

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John 3:16; 14:1-6


Yes because there was no education before the federal govt


Posted: Apr 1, 2019 9:54 AM
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took over.

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Re: Yes because there was no education before the federal govt


Posted: Apr 1, 2019 4:55 PM
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Why do you guys argue like you’re 5 years old?

You look childish trying to argue that because private education existed it was effective.

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"Smelley, Garcia, and Beecher are going to lead you to 4-8." - york_tiger


Re: Yes because there was no education before the federal govt


Posted: Apr 2, 2019 11:08 AM
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You look childish getting all sassy because of sarcasm.

I simply made the point that there is no justification for the belief that comprehensive federal government oversight is good for education, and certainly not necessary.

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You're thinking of communism.


Posted: Mar 31, 2019 7:33 PM
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Socialism doesn't require government ownership of an industry, resource, or service.

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I mentioned that because he indicated that the govt giving


Posted: Mar 31, 2019 10:07 PM
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Money towards subsidizing Clemson indicated was socialist. To get technical though, it’s not exactly a collective either, so the analogy fails on that front too.

Except Tiger Brotherhood. Those dudes are weird. Probably socialists.

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Actually it is socialism, especially K-12 public schools.


Posted: Mar 31, 2019 9:12 PM
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By taxing up front and then giving away education at no additional charge, govt. is able to claim virtually a monopoly in almost every school district. The govt. owns the buildings and the land and employs all the teachers.

It’s less so at Clemson and other public colleges but these institutions have to step up at times and follow Federal mandates or risk losing federal financial aid for their students.

The military and national parks are more socialist in nature.

Just because it’s socialist doesn’t mean it’s bad though there are many bad aspects of socialism.

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I’ll agree generally, but Clemson was the example.

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Posted: Mar 31, 2019 10:11 PM
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Not K-12.

Unfortunately the primary education system does trend towards socialism, with the same general lack of results and accountability as one would expect, but as someone else mentioned, there are clearly free market alternatives, from private schools to home schools, to magnet and charter schools.

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Re: If you attended Clemson...you participated in a socialist program.

[1]
Posted: Mar 31, 2019 5:02 PM
    Reply

funny thing, back in the 60'-80's the government subsidies were much greater in higher education. I mean these 50+ plus people crying about wealth redistribution got the better end of this in their day compared to the kids now. But they decided to cut their own taxes, effectively pulling the ladder up behind themselves on higher education among other things,. talk about the entitled generation....

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You should never chalk up to conspiracy what you can reliably attribute to stupidity. Because stupidity is a much more powerful force in the course of human events.


Just LOL. “If you’ve driven on a road, YOU’RE A SOCIALIST!”***

[2]
Posted: Mar 31, 2019 5:50 PM
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null


No, but if you support your tax dollars paying for them,


Posted: Mar 31, 2019 8:55 PM
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you support one small aspect of socialism.

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nope.***

[1]
Posted: Mar 31, 2019 10:13 PM
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Yep***


Posted: Apr 1, 2019 9:36 AM
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Do you think socialism means government?

[1]
Posted: Apr 1, 2019 9:53 AM
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Socialism: Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.

Building roads is not really socialism unless the government is doing the building itself. The government pays contractors. Socialism is more about when an industry is controlled/owned by the government.

Socialism and government are not interchangeable.

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I agree and this thread is all over the place, but

[1]
Posted: Apr 1, 2019 10:04 AM
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if roads, public education, and the military aren’t socialist, then neither is national health insurance for all.

I’ve just been using the right’s definition of socialism.

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Oh ok, fair enough.***


Posted: Apr 1, 2019 10:06 AM
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Re: Do you think socialism means government?


Posted: Apr 1, 2019 4:59 PM
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Roads become socialism when you take from rich areas to build roads in poorer areas.

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"Smelley, Garcia, and Beecher are going to lead you to 4-8." - york_tiger


Imagine how I feel being on Social Security.


Posted: Mar 31, 2019 7:18 PM
    Reply

I paid enough taxes after Clemson to cover what my student loans didn't. You're also missing the fact that college grads, especially Clemson grads, are paid well and pay tons of taxes throughout the remainder of their lives.

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Re: If you attended Clemson...you participated in a socialist program.

[1]
Posted: Mar 31, 2019 7:27 PM
    Reply

Well said.

Socialism is proven successful although you have a bunch of people who still want to argue they pulled themselves up by their boot straps.

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"Smelley, Garcia, and Beecher are going to lead you to 4-8." - york_tiger


Proven where, some tiny country which doesn't provide for...


Posted: Mar 31, 2019 10:17 PM
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its own defense?

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Re: Proven where, some tiny country which doesn't provide for...


Posted: Apr 1, 2019 8:40 AM
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Last I checked the US is a large country and we spend excessively on our military.

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"Smelley, Garcia, and Beecher are going to lead you to 4-8." - york_tiger


Have you checked our deficit or debt lately?


Posted: Apr 1, 2019 9:13 AM
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The point being, social programs are part of our problem. Our military spending is also but who has the stones to let ISIS and such entities, Russia and China run rampant?

I was specifically speaking of Sweden which is usually what people who want socialism as a form of gov here.


Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®


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you’re playing the wrong card.

[1]
Posted: Apr 1, 2019 9:17 AM
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Military isn’t socialist.....it’s one of the foremost functions of govt. it’s literally what a healthy govt does.

Providing protection for its citizens by having a military no more is a socialist function than is a sanitation company picking up trash.

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You're correct, I was wrong.


Posted: Apr 1, 2019 9:32 AM
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That conversation evolved after he said socialism is proven. I was thinking Sweden, he was thinking America. I realized he wasn't talking about Sweden and said so. Relative to that I included our military as being part of our debt but did not intend to imply military spending was socialistic but to point out that Sweden's faux success was due to Sweden having no significant burden for their defense.

I also believe that's a great part of the success of European countries and their lean toward socialism is due to their lack of contribution to their defense.

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Being a foremost function of govt. means it’s socialist.***


Posted: Apr 1, 2019 9:46 AM
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Wut?


Posted: Apr 1, 2019 9:56 AM
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Being a foremost function of a government with a capitalist economy and a necessary protection of maintaining that capitalist economy makes it socialist?

It's not just a function, the govt and military are completely intertwined.

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USA doesn't have a "capitalist economy"


Posted: Apr 1, 2019 2:55 PM
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it has a mixed economy where government and private are intertwined.


That's a $20 way of saying we don't have pure capitalism.


Posted: Apr 1, 2019 3:07 PM
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Of course we don't, I'm not aware that pure laissez faire capitalism has ever existed anywhere.

What we do have though is an environment where capitalism and the markets are absolutely the primary drivers of our economy, which makes us far more based on capitalism than any other system.

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That's true

[1]
Posted: Apr 1, 2019 3:23 PM
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but you'd be surprised how many think we have a purely capitalist economy and that any and all government regulations/involvement are antithetical to our values as a country.


It's capitalist. It's just also a welfare state. Socialist


Posted: Apr 2, 2019 11:10 AM
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economies are arguably mutually exclusive with capitalism. It's about ownership of the means of production.

I wish we socialized utilities though. On the LOCAL level

Bernie isn't a socialist. He's a big government capitalist who wants to redistribute wealth. He wants to run a gasoline engine on water. Not going to work.

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Social programs and socialism are not the same thing.


Posted: Apr 1, 2019 10:05 AM
    Reply

Socialism involves public (maybe government) ownership of the means of production and profits are shared among all workers instead of going to an owner at the top. Socialism as a government would involve little or no social programs because the whole point is that if wealth is evenly distributed then people wouldn't need so much help.

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Re: you’re playing the wrong card.


Posted: Apr 2, 2019 10:57 AM
    Reply

Obed® said:

Military isn’t socialist.....it’s one of the foremost functions of govt. it’s literally what a healthy govt does.

Providing protection for its citizens by having a military no more is a socialist function than is a sanitation company picking up trash.


Exactly. The military is actually a different action of night watchman libertarianism.

So are the other functions of protecting the public like fire and police services, despite the liberal false claims that they are also socialist.


Re: you’re playing the wrong card.


Posted: Apr 2, 2019 10:57 AM
    Reply

Obed® said:

Military isn’t socialist.....it’s one of the foremost functions of govt. it’s literally what a healthy govt does.

Providing protection for its citizens by having a military no more is a socialist function than is a sanitation company picking up trash.


Exactly. The military is actually a different action of night watchman libertarianism.

So are the other functions of protecting the public like fire and police services, despite the liberal false claims that they are also socialist.


i Mean, you may as well add on the racist factor too

[2]
Posted: Mar 31, 2019 7:34 PM
    Reply

Calhoun, Tillman, and all of that while being socialist at the same time.

I can’t belive the place is still allowed to function.


Re: If you attended Clemson...you participated in a socialist program.

[2]
Posted: Mar 31, 2019 8:41 PM
    Reply



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I think you are conflating the word Socialism with...

[1]
Posted: Apr 1, 2019 9:33 AM
    Reply

everything.

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In fairness, the OP doesn't seem to be conflating anything.

[1]
Posted: Apr 1, 2019 9:59 AM
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He just dropped a troll bomb last night and ran.

Many of the respondents seem to be though.

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capitalism does rely heavily on publicly financed resources

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Posted: Apr 1, 2019 10:04 AM
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and an educated and skilled workforce is the number one resource consumed by most industries in this state.

A good example of how this affects the local economy is Volvo. Only about 4 percent of the people who have applied through ReadySC have the basic skills, education and aptitude needed to make it through Volvo’s screening process.

Only 4%. To me, that is the most damning evidence of failure. Volvo execs who located the plant in Berkeley County with the expectation that there was a minimally viable workforce here are complaining to the state about this problem.

http://www.volvojo.com/2018/04/13/volvo-cant-find-enough-qualified-workers/

Roads and other infrastructure are other examples. Companies depend on the quality of the roads and bridges to move their goods down to the port. Broken roads cause costly delays, equipment costs, and as Michellin North America CEO put it, they "are a disgrace".

https://www.greenvilleonline.com/story/news/politics/2014/11/24/michelin-leader-calls-state-leaders-fix-roads/19487873/

So if you look at it as a symbiotic organism, capitalism depends on the public, more than their whiny CEOs let on. Yet it is hard to take them seriously when they complain, since they also seem to have their hands out every time to avoid paying their share of the taxes.


Thats why I keep getting the "thanks but no thanks" letters


Posted: Apr 1, 2019 4:59 PM
    Reply

from them even though I'm way overqualified for everything I've applied for.

Makes sense now. I thought it was just because I'm old. I guess I'm just stupid.

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