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Rock Defender [53]
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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The Church is the body of real believers saved by grace...
Jun 1, 2015, 7:21 AM
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through their faith in Christ as The Son of God. You can usually find a handful in every congregation. I can't imagine the true percentage of believers but most Christians would call me a heretic for my guess.
The total numbers that show up at services isn't really a concern to me though almost all pastors think that is their success rate. The truth is that most pastors couldn't sit in the ministry of one who has 'The Real Preacher,' directing his sermons. Preaching is a gift of God, it isn't a vocation.
Congregations gather unto themselves teachers, those who won't offend them with the Truth of God's word. Men and women who have the gift to teach, which is another gift of God, such as Charles Stanley can draw huge crowd because of the demand to be coddled and walk away without edification.
Imagine a child born without the ability to digest meat but only milk. As the child grows it is not only more able to digest, fruits, vegetables and meats but it needs different nutrition too. Some children won't eat certain foods. Most children won't eat anything if they are solely in charge of their diets.
That's a part of what's going on in today's churches. Spiritual children are in charge of many congregations which leads to teachers in the pulpit. That leads to gathering too many who just contributor money and then/now the fox is guarding the hen house.
There are still many churches which have a preacher in their pulpit but as I've said before, if lost people think the 'magic book,' I believe in offends them get in touch with me and I'll explain how much more it offends me. It has broccoli, cauliflower, chicken livers, and just imagine what you refuse to eat. That's exactly what shows up on my plate sometimes when I read the Bible.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: The Church is the body of real believers saved by grace...
Jun 1, 2015, 7:43 AM
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Isn't your response just a long-winded version of the "no true scotsman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman)" fallacy?
> I can't imagine the true percentage of believers but most Christians would call me a heretic for my guess.
I'm sure they would, but you also didn't do a great job of backing up your argument with evidence so how am I to know if what you are saying is or isn't heretical? By definition, I don't think you have the ability to backup your claims below because you are trying to interpret what someone believes basically.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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OK, you're right, I'm not a heretic for my guess.
Jun 1, 2015, 7:50 AM
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I didn't give a defining percentage for fear of harming other believers. That's against my ethics.
I'm not communicating with you anymore if you don't forego the emotions. You want conflict and will find it at any level.
If you want something to offend you I'll give you ordinances the likes of which you've never seen.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: OK, you're right, I'm not a heretic for my guess.
Jun 1, 2015, 8:30 AM
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Let's back up a bit here. Where was I being emotional and where did I say I was offended? I posted a religious/political article in the "Politics & Religion" board, you added your comments and I attempted to counter those claims. I fail to see where I brought emotion or conflict into this (unless you consider this debate a conflict).
If you don't want to debate politics and religion then maybe this isn't the forum for you? No belief systems is above scrutiny, including mine. If an idea or belief is true, then it isn't going to disappear in a puff of logic.
I'm not here to attack you personally and if I have done so then I sincerely apologize and will make my best effort to not have that happen again. Otherwise, I'd like to continue to debate with you because we do think very differently and it's no fun to debate with someone who thinks exactly the same.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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It didn't appear you understood anything I wrote...
Jun 1, 2015, 1:53 PM
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except me being a heretic. I provided an inside look at the state of churches however, it's my opinion.
I've been a born again believer in The Christ for over 44 years. I've been an active member including adult SS teach and disciple training director. The only offices I haven't held were deacon and pastor. I was offered both but refused because I didn't qualify according to that 'magic book,' I've read, studied and meditated upon for those 44+ years.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: It didn't appear you understood anything I wrote...
Jun 1, 2015, 3:22 PM
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> It didn't appear you understood anything I wrote except me being a heretic.
I think you have it backwards as I did not call you a heretic. I said that i'm sure other christians would probably say that because anytime one sect doesn't 100% agree with the other, that's what happens.
> I've been a born again believer in The Christ for over 44 years. I've been an active member including adult SS teach and disciple training director. The only offices I haven't held were deacon and pastor. I was offered both but refused because I didn't qualify according to that 'magic book,' I've read, studied and meditated upon for those 44+ years.
This is all fine and I have no problem with that. I don't doubt any of your convictions or experiences. Don't take this personally as it's not meant as an attack I just think the mind is a powerful thing and we interpret experiences very differently.
My main problem with most of the claims you laid out is that, by definition, they can't be substantiated as it requires faith. At least the article I provided attempts to show some numbers.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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Strange you would bring that up, faith that is.
Jun 2, 2015, 8:28 AM
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That's the ammo of which I was about to provide.
When Jesus's Apostles asked him to increase their faith he seemed to go off on a tangent. Many sermons have been preached about Christ first statement as recorded by Luke in the 17th chapter:
"5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith. 6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you."
But that's just the introduction to the lesson.
"7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?"
9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not."
That tells me that faith is my job, sometimes it's my only job. It's not about that tiny amount of faith, it's about the object of one's faith. Is it in one's intelligence, understanding, education, asset sheet, wife, children, country, friend or physical abilities? No, it's about The Master or Lord, as we say.
Does he sit on the throne? Did he create the design and create the world? Did he create man and give man free will? Do all things really work to good for them who are the called according to his purpose?
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110%er [7013]
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All-In [31891]
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I'm just curious if you understand how big of a ....
Jun 1, 2015, 8:20 AM
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###### you come off as with these kinds of comments.
We get it...you don't believe...
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110%er [7013]
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I feel the same way about people who think the incorporation
Jun 1, 2015, 12:28 PM
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of superstition into government is an appropriate and good thing.
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All-In [31891]
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That's fine...but do you have to append it to each post....
Jun 1, 2015, 1:41 PM
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of something you disagree with.
Are you under the illusion that someone doesn't already know your feelings on the subject?
Just gets a bit old.
We get it...you're an atheist.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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110%er [7013]
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That is why they call those benches pews.***
Jun 1, 2015, 12:26 PM
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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Oculus Spirit [97716]
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Well most Christians would just assume stay out
Oct 6, 2021, 9:41 AM
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I think the reason for the "activism" is that their beliefs are under legal attack constantly. Abortion, gay rights, etc. This is a little different than racism, although the law is treating homosexuality the same way. There is no religious belief directly backing racism. So when the government in the 60's said you have to treat blacks equally, that was not an affront on religion.
But when you say you must treat homosexuals equally, that is a direct affront on many Christians and the freedom of religion.
If left unchecked, politics will kill religion. It always has, no matter the form of government or the religion. You have to have freedom to have religion. The presence of religion is a good litmus test for the level of freedom allowed by the government. There is no coincidence that the decline of religion is accompanied by an increase in the importance of politics and government. Those who covet power would much rather you drink soup from their soup kitchen than God's.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Well most Christians would just assume stay out
Oct 6, 2021, 10:04 AM
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Now wait just a minute, you'll have to explain something to me. The LGBT community is fighting for to have equal rights and you have the audacity to say that christians are the ones being attacked here? Same with abortion, why do you feel that you have a say in what someone else does with their body? How are either of those groups "attacking" you? Are they forcing you to get an abortion or marry someone of the same sex?
Look, I don't agree with your belief system but I 100% support your rights and freedom to express those beliefs. What I don't support is you taking your belief system and using that to oppress others. America is a giant melting pot of different belief systems. Why is it that you feel yours are so superior to everyone elses that we should all concede to your thought process?
Why can't the LGBT community be allowed to marry? This is a free country, not a christian one.
Nobody is telling you that you don't have the right to practice your religion, they are telling you that you don't have the right to take that belief and infringe on other's rights?
Make sense?
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Hall of Famer [21576]
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Re: Well most Christians would just assume stay out
Jun 1, 2015, 11:51 AM
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It does to me...but there are many here that can't grasp it.
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All-In [42151]
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An affront? So was...
Jun 1, 2015, 9:11 AM
[ in reply to Well most Christians would just assume stay out ] |
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-Abolition of slavery (Leviticus 25:44-46... and no, we're not dismissing Old Testament as many, many Christians cite Leviticus in their argument against homosexuality. This stands.)
-Interracial marriage (Deutoronomy 7:3-4... some groups have also argued Jeremiah 13:23 and Acts 17:24-26 to support their stance against interracial marriage)
-Women's rights (Leviticus 12:2 and 5, I Corinthians 11:3, 8-9, I Timothy 2:11-14, Ephesians 5:22-24... and a lot more. This one is extensive)
-Stances against rape! (Yep. Rape. In a lot of places, it's condoned. Here's just one: Deutoronomy 21:10-14
-Repealing of Blue Laws (I won't cite all the passages. I think we all know what the Bible says about doing stuff on Sunday)
Christians claim their beliefs are constantly under attack, but given some of these circumstances throughout history where they legislated immorality and inequality, those beliefs NEED to come under attack. Those other ridiculous stances were shot down while they clung to their scripture. Now they've chosen gay marriage.
Can someone tell me how that part of the Bible is more of a sin than equality for women? Anyone?
Now, some may argue that Christ did not push such rules and laws in the Gospels. That is correct. And he also did not address homosexuality...
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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I've never been an activist because...
Jun 1, 2015, 1:58 PM
[ in reply to Well most Christians would just assume stay out ] |
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I've never been instructed to participate or care about activism by the Holy Spirit. I've got other stuff on my plate.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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unpossible...
Jun 6, 2021, 6:16 PM
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another article title not supported by actual title?
Mixing Christianity and Politics Is Killing the Church ---- "Although correlation is not cause"
I can name a lot of things killing the church and I'm not sure mixing politics and church is high on the list. Top of the list are people who identify themselves as followers of Christ whose supposed faith shows no bearing in the way they live or treat others.
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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poop
Jun 1, 2015, 8:28 AM
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another article title not supported by actual article?
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CU Medallion [54758]
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or..."another post title not supported by actual post"
Jun 1, 2015, 8:29 AM
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Oculus Spirit [83625]
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poop
Jun 1, 2015, 8:32 AM
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Better?
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Legend [18310]
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There is a lot
Jun 1, 2015, 11:28 AM
[ in reply to unpossible... ] |
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of merit in your post. I was raised as a Methodist but changed to the Presbyterian when I marred one. We were married in a Presbyterian and Dr. Sydney J. L. Crouch (some old Clemson folks here will remember him, he was a wonderful man) Since then, I have both inactive and active as a youth leader and finally as an Elder (a lifetime appointment). My inactive times have been the same as my active times. I left the Church for good after a group of bigots (Elders, yet) fired a minister for being too liberal.
As far as a God is concerned, I think He/She/It is a fabrication within one's mind. God was initially used by wealthy folks who had control over peasants. It was a means of making superstitious people obey them using the threat of hellfire and brimstone.
Go Tigers, make up your own minds about religion. I will respect your decision.
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All-In [31891]
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So you were an elder in a church and left because you....
Jun 1, 2015, 1:45 PM
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disagreed with the other elders in the handling of a minister...but not because "I think He/She/It is a fabrication within one's mind"?
That seems odd. Not surprising, but odd nonetheless.
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Legend [18310]
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I'm always tempted to ignore you but I do want to point out
Jun 1, 2015, 2:13 PM
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that you do not know what the hell you are posting about. I was not a session member at the time, my six years were up. The Church was in chaos after he was surprised at a session meeting by a four to three decision. I attended church a couple of times afterwards and found that I could not accept communion from the guilty elders. Please know what you are talking next time you wish to diss me, there is no use in making an ### of yourself needlessly.
Go Tigers, be Tigers, not smartasses.
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All-In [31891]
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I just repeated your post....
Jun 1, 2015, 2:19 PM
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so you came to your opinion on God being a fabrication AFTER you left the church?
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Legend [18310]
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Nonsense (I was tempted to ignore you agin),
Jun 1, 2015, 2:55 PM
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I've had grave doubts about the existence of a Supreme deity for most of my life. I made the final decision to research my beliefs and arrived at my final conclusion early in my professional career. I attended church because I liked the music and because I had so much respect for my father, Doctor Crouch, and a minister in NC while I was in graduate school. The dismissed minister was also a favorite of mine and he got the shaft from a few bigots. Keep dissing, you might get a clue about me that is not so bad.
Go Tigers, know what you are doing and don't ever be caught doing something silly.
Back to ignoring you, Ace.
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All-In [31891]
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I didn't "diss" you....I asked about being a deacon in....
Jun 1, 2015, 3:00 PM
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a church when you don't believe in God. You're the one that posted your beliefs/feelings/history on discussion forum.
You don't think it's a bit odd to be a deacon in a Christian church but not be a Christian?
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All-In [26968]
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I was an elder in a Satanist church for a brief period.
Jun 1, 2015, 3:39 PM
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I thought the clothes were cool, and this one guy brought killer onion rings sometimes.
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Hall of Famer [23693]
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Go Tigers.***
Jun 1, 2015, 3:48 PM
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CU Medallion [50635]
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Re: Go Tigers.***
Jun 4, 2015, 8:24 PM
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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I had my own church too. It was better than yours.
Jun 3, 2015, 11:52 PM
[ in reply to I was an elder in a Satanist church for a brief period. ] |
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I made up my own rules and changed them when things didn't suit me. Sometimes I violated my rules but didn't change them or myself at all. I didn't have many followers, well, I only had me. I ruled over a kingdom which was pretty small and mobile. I took it everywhere I went. If people didn't join my church I'd leave and look for other followers.
Then I met someone who changed my life. I learned that being a servant in His Kingdom was so much better than being a king in mine. I haven't turned back. There were times when I didn't serve but I never left the kingdom and He never forsook me.
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Legend [18310]
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Re: I didn't "diss" you....I asked about being a deacon in....
Jun 1, 2015, 4:55 PM
[ in reply to I didn't "diss" you....I asked about being a deacon in.... ] |
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Dude, I've never been a deacon in my whole life. You are truly confused, is your memory waning? Have you had a recent checkup? You owe it to yourself to try to not be so confused. You are so intent on getting cheap-shot geechie points from the radicals that you post without thinking. Don't pee on yourself when you get aroused, it wouldn't look good.
Go Tigers, the Athletic staff keeps you in good mental health.
Good luck, I hope you improve.
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All-In [31891]
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oh good grief. I meant elder and you know it....
Jun 1, 2015, 5:05 PM
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deacon and elder are commonly used interchangeably in a general sense.
The point though is that you accepted an elder position in a church and you aren't a Christian.
That seems really weird to me and, without knowing all of the circumstances, dang near sounds dishonest. That would sure tick me off if someone did that in an equivalent position in my church.
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Legend [18310]
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I know one thing,
Jun 2, 2015, 11:44 AM
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you are confused, a normal fellow would have apologized for making such a foolish error. I've worked with thousands of young people as either an advisor, instructor, or director of research ranging from freshmen to postdoctorals but I have had one who is as vain as you. What an inflated ego, I wonder if you watch your self in the mirror all day. Sure makes me and Alex quite tenable in our assessment of you.
Go Tigers, stay down to earth and get the job done.
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All-In [31891]
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wt h are you talking about, seriously?....
Jun 2, 2015, 7:43 PM
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I had a typo for elder vs deacon and you want an apology? And what in the world have I posted that is in the least bit vain?
But back to the point....you were an elder in a church and you, by your own admission, weren't a Christian. Just seem really weird to me.
But yeah...I owe YOU an apology and I'm somehow vain...LOL
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Legend [18310]
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Most folks I know, understand my posts and do not have a
Jun 3, 2015, 3:49 PM
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problem with reading comprehension nor are they smartassed. Maybe you are "listening" to some strange voices from somewhere, I don't know. Nevertheless, Go Tigers, understand what you are coached to do and give it your best.
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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I think Flow made a pretty good point here.
Jun 3, 2015, 5:10 PM
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You stated you were an elder in a church, but then later said you've never really believed in God since you were young. I'm certainly no religious scholar, but how does one go about spreading the word and all that stuff that an "officer of the church" is supposed to do, without really even really believing what it is you are telling others to do?
Either alone is fine with me, but doing both seems like a whole heap of disingenuousness and hypocrisy.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: I think Flow made a pretty good point here.
Jun 3, 2015, 5:43 PM
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And in many churches, an elder is above a deacon. To some, an elder is a pastor.
Guess it depends on location, etc with the various names
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All-In [31891]
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Legend [18310]
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Wrong on both counts,
Jun 4, 2015, 10:31 AM
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Your vanity and hate will not let you give up. So be it. One more of your totally incorrect posts and you win. Then, I hope you will reflect on your hatred and vanity and clean up your act. I will not hold my breath.
To all who read this, My life hasn't changed. I am still a kind, gracious person with much love within me. Banter all you wish but organized religion is like a tea party meeting. My lifelong search for the truth was not fulfilled by either group. I remain the same person that I have been all these years.
Go Tigers, search for the truth and live wisely. However beat the crap out of the coots and maybe things will flow better.
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All-In [31891]
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And the intellectual coward label still fits you....
Jun 4, 2015, 11:09 AM
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I don't hate you blah blah....
You simply can't address a reasonable point/question I raised about you being an elder in a church while not believing in God. You deflect, accuse, etc...but never answer or address.
Fact is, i don't really care. You seem to be so FOS that who knows if you're even being truthful about being an elder or about not believing in God, etc...
Proceed to rail on the tea party or #### Cheney or whatever your fascination de jor is...the real people in here will continue to think you're a fruit cake either way, so....
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Legend [18310]
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But, you are 100% correct about most folks here. They are
Jun 4, 2015, 11:03 AM
[ in reply to I tell you with great confidence, that most folks think... ] |
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predominately tea party or tea party sympathizers (You are one or the other). There are a few reasonable Republicans (e.g. Alex et al. who have you categorized correctly) and even fewer Liberals. So my standing here is just where I want it to be. I fend OK amongst y'all.
Go Tigers fen for yourselves well and tame the coots.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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I challenge one person to step forward and defend you!
Jun 4, 2015, 3:43 PM
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The challenged must state here on a new thread starter that geechie has never come across as delusional, has never avoided answering one difficult question with honest and sincerity without insulting the one who questioned.
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Legend [18310]
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That is the last thing I want. Such a person would become a
Jun 4, 2015, 4:44 PM
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target of the radicals who control this forum. I don't need any defense from the helpless folks like you. Big talk and nothing else.
Go Tigers, don't be helpless and/or worthless like my P&R adversaries.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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Where's Tboy when you need him geechie?***
Jun 4, 2015, 7:42 PM
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Legend [18310]
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Who is Tboy?
Jun 4, 2015, 8:02 PM
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Are you confused yet again? I distinctly posted that I do not need anyone to counter hapless and harmless dudes like you. Where is Qboy?
Go Tigers do not be confused, follow your coach's advice
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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Tigerboy gave you half of your points.
Jun 5, 2015, 6:13 PM
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Your scoks gave you the rest.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Legend [18310]
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Im cool with that and likewise.
Jun 5, 2015, 10:30 AM
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You will probably join me, the Clintons, the Obamas, the Bidens and other Dems. on their Rep. hate list. I find it great fun to be there. I assure you that they all are harmless.
Go tigers, hit hard but do not hate.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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Easy flow, there's only one way to be certain of that.
Jun 4, 2015, 3:34 PM
[ in reply to oh good grief. I meant elder and you know it.... ] |
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I was there at Geer Memorial Baptist Church when most of the deacons got saved. It shook the community but I finally knew most of them were born again for sure.
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All-In [31891]
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I'm not presuming to know if he is a christian or not....
Jun 4, 2015, 3:49 PM
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he said he wasn't.
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All-TigerNet [13605]
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Re: Nonsense (I was tempted to ignore you agin),
Jun 1, 2015, 5:32 PM
[ in reply to Nonsense (I was tempted to ignore you agin), ] |
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While I still believe in God, I do have doubts about a literal hell that many talk about(among other things that are preached)
I can't wrap my mind around anyone or any being casting someone into hell for an eternity. I wouldn't do it, you wouldn't do it, no one on this site would cast their child into a fire to burn forever....yet they preach about a God(who supposedly loves more than we could ever love) that will cast you into hell if you don't believe...weird...
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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You are so close to the truth we almost agree.
Jun 3, 2015, 7:22 PM
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There are no physical bodies in helll and there never will be. Therefor, the fires that 'helllfire and brimstone,' thrown from the pulpits during at least the last century have and rightly should fall on deaf spiritual ears.
It's a place made for beings that have no physical bodies, satan and his crew, according to the Bible. Christians who believe the Bible know this but some may not have joined the two concepts. Fire is clearly a metaphor used to describe the most horrible environment conceivable to the human understanding and rightly so, imo.
I found this seeming conflict within the scripture and went to God with the my questions and concerns. He told me He wouldn't be there for a perfect being could not tolerate the presence of sin or sinners.
If you ask I'll try to explain any of this which seems to be flawed regarding the scripture. It's a spiritual thing so we must continue to address the issue in terms which consider spiritual things. We've both excluded the only physical issue with helll the fire. I'm ready to try and explain the spiritual if you want.
I hope it doesn't offend you that we share a fundamental belief. 
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Legend [18310]
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I don't need to ignore you
Jun 4, 2015, 11:21 AM
[ in reply to Re: Nonsense (I was tempted to ignore you agin), ] |
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You make good sense, hence, my non-belief in an Almighty who could think of doing anything that evil.
Go Tigers, think first, then do your best.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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Legend [18310]
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No indeed,
Jun 4, 2015, 11:24 AM
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I'm a Liberal (as in JFK's definition).
Go Tigers, win by a liberal number of points.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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I guess I'm too stupid or ignorant to understand how...
Jun 4, 2015, 3:31 PM
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political beliefs and spiritual beliefs are related. Either that or they aren't and you can't tell the difference which is a characteristic of a reprobate. God will have to work that out 'he/she,' calls us to judgement.
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Legend [18310]
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You posted that, I didn't. I do not post about others being
Jun 5, 2015, 10:57 AM
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stupid and ignorant. It isn't nice and I do not know whether you are or not. If I should die and subsequently hear some dude blowing a horn, I'm going to shout, "Jugde not that you not be judged" to the dude who tries to judge me.
Go Tigers, don't judge, just play your best.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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You left a church because a preach was fired because he...
Jun 2, 2015, 8:33 AM
[ in reply to There is a lot ] |
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wasn't liberal enough?
Go figure!
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All-In [28802]
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Not to mention...
Jun 1, 2015, 11:40 AM
[ in reply to unpossible... ] |
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that it's actually the branches of Christianity who've thrown in with liberal modernism that are dying, while those most closely associated with conservative politics are the most vital. I think you'd also find that, contrary to the perception, there's less said about politics in more conservative churches than in liberal ones where social justice is emphasized.
Ironically for the OP, "mixing politics and religion" might be hurting the church, but the kind of politics responsible aren't the ones he was looking for.
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Hall of Famer [21576]
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Re: Not to mention...
Jun 1, 2015, 11:50 AM
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This is just flat out wrong.
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All-In [28802]
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LOL
Jun 1, 2015, 12:17 PM
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Besides the idea that the kind of politics that's hurting the church is liberal modernism, there's nothing but facts in there. And even that opinion is just an interpretation of incontestable facts.
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Hall of Famer [21576]
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Re: LOL
Jun 1, 2015, 5:06 PM
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"the branches of Christianity who've thrown in with liberal modernism that are dying"
I can give you plenty of examples of thriving churches. Thank God liberal modernism is killing off your brand of Christianity. May it continue to die....couldn't happen any quicker.
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All-In [42151]
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You sure?
Jun 1, 2015, 12:04 PM
[ in reply to Not to mention... ] |
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Your more liberal churches like New Spring and other mega churches are booming; the smaller, traditional churches are seeing a drop. Catholic attendance has taken a huge hit over the decades.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: You sure?
Jun 1, 2015, 12:07 PM
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If New Spring is what's considered "liberal"... oh boy.
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All-In [42151]
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It's very liberal compared to a lot of traditional ones.
Jun 1, 2015, 12:15 PM
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I mean, Brother Noble got to redo the Ten Commandments.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: It's very liberal compared to a lot of traditional ones.
Jun 1, 2015, 12:18 PM
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Oh I get it, it's a long ways off of a traditional quiet baptist church but it is nowhere near a "liberal" church at all.
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All-In [28802]
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Nearly all megachurches are conservative and Evangelical
Jun 1, 2015, 12:45 PM
[ in reply to You sure? ] |
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New Spring included. There are some progressive Evangelicals, but they're a small minority and they're actually theologically pretty conservative compared to liberal mainline churches. I think you'd find that there's almost a pietistic avoidance of politics in most conservative Evangelical mega-churches, although it seems like more Evangelicals are becoming interested in the "social gospel."
Message was edited by: camcgee®
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All-In [42151]
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What would you define as a liberal church?***
Jun 1, 2015, 12:49 PM
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All-In [28802]
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Liberal theologically
Jun 1, 2015, 12:52 PM
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_liberalism
Not all churches with a liberal theology are active in progressive politics, but liberal theology correlates much better with liberal politics than more conservative or traditional Christianity (pretty much any church associated with Evangelicalism, Roman Catholicism, Orthodoxy, etc.).
Message was edited by: camcgee®
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All-In [42151]
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Interesting, but...
Jun 1, 2015, 2:35 PM
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You said conservative, traditional churches aren't losing attendance. The statistics show that isn't true. Where do you conclude that this isn't the case?
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All-In [28802]
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That's not quite what I said...
Jun 1, 2015, 3:23 PM
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I said that the more conservative churches were "the most vital." Just about all of the more traditional churches are losing members, but the Evangelical churches in that camp (like the SBC) have only recently begun to show a modest decline. Overall, Evangelical churches have held steady. On the other hand, liberal mainline churches began quickly shedding members decades ago.
It's important to remember that "traditional" in a church context doesn't mean that a church is theologically conservative. In fact, some of the most traditional protestant churches are also the most liberal.
Message was edited by: camcgee®
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Not to mention...
Jun 1, 2015, 12:08 PM
[ in reply to Not to mention... ] |
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A.) Do you have sources for your claims?
B.) "Ironically for the OP, "mixing politics and religion" might be hurting the church, but the kind of politics responsible aren't the ones he was looking for. "
Why is the ironic for me? I'm not looking for anything, just pointing out an article.
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All-In [28802]
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Not to mention...
Jun 1, 2015, 3:31 PM
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First of all, thank you for posting some links. It's hard to get those on here:
1. I'm not sure this refutes anything though, it seems to say church attendence is dwindling regardless of homosexual acceptance.
The evidence does point to people becoming less and less religious now that access to scientific data is so ubiquitous.
2. "The evidence shows almost the exact opposite" Still have to disagree with you there.
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All-In [28802]
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Re: Not to mention...
Jun 1, 2015, 5:27 PM
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The evidence clearly shows that the largest losses in membership, and the most sustained losses in membership, have come from the liberal mainline churches. No one can say why for sure, but I would guess that churches the preach something indistinguishable from the culture around them become superfluous. Why go to church if you can get all the nice values without any of the God stuff?
As for the stuff about availability of scientific data leading to the loss of religiosity, I suggest reading (or reading about) Charles Taylor's A Secular Age (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Secular_Age). The story isn't that simple: http://ndpr.nd.edu/news/23696-a-secular-age/.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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Politicians fleece the church goers.
Jun 2, 2015, 8:36 AM
[ in reply to Not to mention... ] |
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IMO, they are like TV evangelists, circus.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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That hits home.***
Jun 1, 2015, 1:59 PM
[ in reply to unpossible... ] |
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All-In [42151]
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It's a factor, IMO, but not the sole cause
Jun 1, 2015, 12:14 PM
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Other things I predict to be factors without doing any research:
-Technology. You can get your Jesus fix online a lot easier now. You can watch your pastor's sermon in your PJs at home. Or snag that Podcast.
-Contemporary churches. Places like New Spring that sell Jesus cheap and make you feel cool about wearing a T-shirt to church. Just so long as you're tithing heavily, brother...
-Gay marriage. I guess this factors in to the politics, but there is a definite backlash happening now with the churches' stances.
-Christianity is dwindling. More people are leaving the fold. I will also cite the technology factor here. The more access people have to information and science, the more they're turning away from the religion.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: It's a factor, IMO, but not the sole cause
Jun 1, 2015, 12:20 PM
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> Contemporary churches. Places like New Spring that sell Jesus cheap and make you feel cool about wearing a T-shirt to church. Just so long as you're tithing heavily, brother...
I understand most criticisms but what's the issue with wearing a T-shirt to church?
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All-In [42151]
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Oh, I got no problem with it.
Jun 1, 2015, 12:25 PM
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But that's how they sell it cheap. Rock music, T-shirts, etc.
Then they beg for money.
But I do feel this is a contributor to the decline of more traditional churches.
I don't go to church so I don't care what they wear.
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All-TigerNet [13190]
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Wear what you want...
Jun 1, 2015, 12:48 PM
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But bring your checkbook.
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110%er [7013]
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More and more jobs are retail/service based which means
Jun 2, 2015, 8:44 AM
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working on Sundays. Kinda hard to take a few hours to attend when you have to work that day.
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Heisman Winner [111574]
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Re: Mixing Christianity and politics is killing the church
Jun 3, 2015, 5:43 PM
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this explains the lack of traffic on Sunday Mornings.
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