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Hall of Famer [24477]
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Why all the hand wringing about the fact that this guy
Apr 21, 2013, 11:23 PM
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is a U.S. citizen? If he is not a citizen (which he is), he is an enemy combatant. If he is not, he is a traitor, his actions treasonous, if motivated by Islamic extremists, which have already been declared enemy combatants. Why is it harsh to treat him as such?
What is the difference between him and Benedict Arnold? Since when do we allow traitors to hide behind citizenship? I thought that was the point, that one surrenders those rights when taking up arms against one's own country.
I will leave it to the lounge lawyers: why do we want to treat this guy like he's a guy from Missouri accused of embezzling money from a bank?
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CU Medallion [67817]
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Re: Why all the hand wringing about the fact that this guy
Apr 21, 2013, 11:29 PM
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or John Walker Lindh who was american born and took up arms against the US.
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Hall of Famer [24477]
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Like lindh, this is not a 7 Eleven hold up. This was not a
Apr 21, 2013, 11:47 PM
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crime; its a different category. I cant understand why our supposed leaders are twisting themselves into pretzels trying to say it was.
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CU Medallion [56063]
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Isn't the punishment going to be the same no matter what?
Apr 22, 2013, 12:38 AM
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All other discussion is academic.
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Heisman Winner [111530]
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Re: Isn't the punishment going to be the same no matter what?
Apr 22, 2013, 12:52 AM
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you don't understand, only Muslim Americans can be terrorists
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Orange Blooded [3148]
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FYI: Timothy McVeigh was a terrorist
Apr 22, 2013, 7:35 AM
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and the death he got wasn't near painful enough considering what he did.
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Hall of Famer [24477]
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CU Medallion [56063]
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Right. I guess that all seems kinda moot to me.***
Apr 22, 2013, 8:55 AM
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All-TigerNet [12269]
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Re: Isn't the punishment going to be the same no matter what?
Apr 22, 2013, 8:35 AM
[ in reply to Isn't the punishment going to be the same no matter what? ] |
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I am very sympathetic to the view that the blue passport should afford one every Constitutional protection but when a citizen conspires wi foreign enemies, I think the rules of discovery have to change. We should not have to compromise our covert action to protect those who conspire with our enemies. This is very tricky, I admit. I am not sure of all the issues and how we should move forward with this.
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All-In [29036]
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Out of curiosity (honest question)
Apr 22, 2013, 12:58 AM
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Would you have said the same of McVeigh?
And that's not intended as a loaded question.
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Legend [18021]
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Or Wade Michael Page***
Apr 22, 2013, 2:01 AM
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All-In [30483]
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Hall of Famer [24477]
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Good question. Two things come to mind.
Apr 22, 2013, 8:18 AM
[ in reply to Out of curiosity (honest question) ] |
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1. I can see treating McViegh as a combatant, traitor, etc. Not simply a criminal. He was not a crazy guy shooting people: he was attacking the U.S., because it was the U.S.
2. While we cannot avoid using the term Muslim, because that is what they are, but classifying them as combatants has nothing to do with religion. They are an organization thqt has set out to wage assymetrical war on the US. People who compare it to other religions are just flaming and muddying the waters. It seems to me that if the radical elements of if are systematically training people to wage war, then we have to recognize that and act accordingly when things like Boston happen. Tsarmaev is a combatant, plain and simple. A confused one, a manipulated one, an otherwise likable one. But one.
I suppose its fine to take a week or so to dot the I's on whether a guy had contact with the combatants. But I think in this case we know that, dont we?
So, is there a difference between McVeigh and Tsarnaev? I would have to vote no. What do you think?
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All-In [29036]
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I'm not sure I see a difference either
Apr 22, 2013, 9:32 AM
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Both were part of some "organized" group plotting to do harm to the US, though the target of McVeigh did have more of a direct "attack the US government" association.
I'm a bit torn as how this should be handled. This bomber is an American citizen, and I find myself thinking that at least until convicted of these acts he deserves every ounce of protection the constitution offers. Make no mistake, that is not because I have an ounce of sympathy for him, but rather it is because I believe that following the rules of order we have in this country is best for the protection of all our citizens.
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Hall of Famer [24477]
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I know. It is not an easy disctinction to make. All of us
Apr 22, 2013, 12:28 PM
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agree that any citizen accused of a crime is due protection from a zealous govt. And we agree that treason is a different category.
But what about civil disobedience? All we classic liberals - not to be confused with the party politics of the same name - honor the values of Thoreau and MLK. When a govt asks a person to act counter to his conscience, he should refuse. While he cannot expect to escape the legal consequences, he should be given every civil right a liberal society can give. A person should have the right to a fight without fear. He has the right to lose or win on a level field.
A traitor is another animal, imo, but I do see where it is difficult to tell the difference. Is the only distinction between Thoreau and Tsarnaev the fact that people were killed? Would we be respecting, if disagreeing with, Tsarnaev had he simply sat down in the middle of the road at the Marathon (and rightfully being taken to jail 5 minutes later)? I am willing to say "yes" on that.
But I agree with the concern about it.
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Rock Defender [53]
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If you can deny one American Citizen the 4th and 5th
Apr 22, 2013, 8:58 AM
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amendment, you can drum up any reason to deny them to any of us.
Curious that we won't allow one wit of infringement on the 2nd amendment, but 4th and 5th have somehow become disposable since 9/11.
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110%er [7980]
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I think there is a 10 year vestment period
Apr 22, 2013, 9:04 AM
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each year of citizenship you earn 1 more amendment. At 10 years you get them all.
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All-In [29036]
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This is similar to how I feel
Apr 22, 2013, 9:34 AM
[ in reply to If you can deny one American Citizen the 4th and 5th ] |
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I just am uneasy with ever saying that outside the immediate action of a battlefield, we should be removing constitutional rights from American citizens.
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Hall of Famer [24477]
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If we could describe "battlefield" I would agree. I really
Apr 22, 2013, 12:15 PM
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do agree with all the concern about this. But I do believe we can distinguish between a soldier and a citizen.
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Oculus Spirit [97710]
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I don't like it. He is an American citizen
Apr 22, 2013, 10:12 AM
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Doesn't matter WHAT he did. It's a slippery slope that you start down when you start selectively denying rights to citizens. While I have no problem with it personally in this case, I do have a problem with the precedent because it can (and will) be abused.
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