|
Replies: 56
| visibility 1
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
I still think the vehement opposition to mail-in voting
May 28, 2020, 11:37 AM
|
|
Is weird.
Why isn't anyone who thinks there is potential for fraud, talking about fixing whatever issues may allow for fraud? Is it not even worth considering?
|
|
|
|
 |
All-In [40656]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23591
Joined: 1/29/05
|
Agreed
May 28, 2020, 11:40 AM
|
|
There's got to be a pretty simple fix to this. Uber right wing conservative coworker pops up once every few months with, "much wow, look at this proof of voter fraud" and its like 8 ballots (this USPS driver is my example). Theres long lists of research that has found voter fraud is so rare, meaning there is hardly any chance that it would impact election results.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
Right. And is there no concern about
May 28, 2020, 11:44 AM
|
|
the millions of mail-in ballots that come in every year already? Have those ballots swung any elections due to major fraud? I don't remember ever hearing about that as an issue.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Athletic Dir [881]
TigerPulse: 57%
Posts: 2125
Joined: 2/3/12
|
The NC congressional election in 2018
May 28, 2020, 8:24 PM
|
|
They had to hold another election because of (Republican) absentee ballot fraud. That's the only one I know of.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [48959]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 38798
Joined: 12/31/97
|
yeah...but team first mentality...
May 28, 2020, 11:44 AM
[ in reply to Agreed ] |
|
means you are pro-mail in if it helps your team and anti-mail in if it hurts. It's the American way now days.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
I don't think it would help one "side" more than another.***
May 28, 2020, 11:45 AM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Legend [18003]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 30146
Joined: 9/9/06
|
The thinking is that it allows more people to vote
May 28, 2020, 3:03 PM
|
|
and more people voting tends to help Democrats, or at least, that's how the Republicans and others feel. I have no idea if it helps Democrats or not, but based on the strength of the belief by Republicans, I'm going to assume there's some truth to it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [40656]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23591
Joined: 1/29/05
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [22381]
TigerPulse: 99%
Posts: 31279
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Contrast that to their reaction to 100,000 dead
May 28, 2020, 11:47 AM
[ in reply to Agreed ] |
|
and growing.
It's a wonder their heads don't explode.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
I'm for mailing ballots to everyone
May 28, 2020, 12:14 PM
|
|
And also requiring voter ID to vote in person, and also for IDs being free and easily obtainable.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Hall of Famer [22381]
TigerPulse: 99%
Posts: 31279
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Me too.
May 28, 2020, 12:37 PM
|
|
Voter ID is a solution in search of a problem.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [73569]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 78044
Joined: 11/30/98
|
meh, i'll just fill out my wifes for her
May 28, 2020, 11:43 AM
|
|
she never votes anyway.
--- said thousands of married folks around the country
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
It seems like a way could be devised to prevent that
May 28, 2020, 11:44 AM
|
|
if there already isn't.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [73569]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 78044
Joined: 11/30/98
|
not sure how, but ok
May 28, 2020, 11:47 AM
|
|
and my wife never votes so I could easily fill hers out, if I wanted to commit voter fraud.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
I don't know either, but if we can send a man to the
May 28, 2020, 11:48 AM
|
|
moon (and 50 years ago!), then it seems like someone would be smart enough to figure it out.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34535]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 41380
Joined: 4/20/01
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [56005]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 31617
Joined: 8/27/02
|
The signatures would have to match, for one thing.
May 28, 2020, 11:49 AM
[ in reply to It seems like a way could be devised to prevent that ] |
|
That's true when I vote in person or when I vote by mail.
The only way you can make an argument against mail-in voting is if you have no idea how it works. That way you can introduce all kinds of extraneous hypothetical scenarios to poke holes in a system that doesn't actually exist.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
I thought I read there was a signature thing.
May 28, 2020, 11:49 AM
|
|
Thanks for the info.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [73569]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 78044
Joined: 11/30/98
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [56005]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 31617
Joined: 8/27/02
|
If it won't work because no one is checking signatures, then
May 28, 2020, 12:01 PM
|
|
I have a radical solution: Make people check the signatures.
Your signature is different every time you sign something? Uh, what the ####. Ok though, let's pretend for a second that that's a very common issue. #1. That will be an issue for people who vote by mail and for people who vote in person. #2. Signatures in general literally have zero value and we've been wrong this whole time.
This argument is so preposterous I'm suddenly realizing I actually became dumber for having replied to it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [73569]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 78044
Joined: 11/30/98
|
I scribble my sig
May 28, 2020, 12:06 PM
|
|
You probably couldn't even make out anything in my sig.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
If the signature is inconsistent or unintelligible, that
May 28, 2020, 12:17 PM
|
|
wouldn't lead to voter fraud...it'd lead to votes being turned in and not counted. Right? So it's almost the opposite of voter fraud.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [81628]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 47097
Joined: 3/18/07
|
My signature is a simple scribble that is definitely not the
May 28, 2020, 12:12 PM
[ in reply to If it won't work because no one is checking signatures, then ] |
|
same each time. It's embarrassingly bad sometimes I should be a doctor. I have reprinted a full-size mylar drawing once before because my signature was so bad when I was signing a set.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
...then it's not a signature...
May 28, 2020, 12:14 PM
|
|
It's just scribbling. By definition, a signature is your personal, consistent way of writing your name.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
And if you can't make a consistent signature
May 28, 2020, 12:15 PM
|
|
then mail-in balloting is not for that person, I suppose.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [81628]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 47097
Joined: 3/18/07
|
If you aggregate them it's consistent scribble.***
May 28, 2020, 12:20 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [40344]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23463
Joined: 7/13/12
|
Are you trying to suppress my vote?
May 28, 2020, 2:11 PM
[ in reply to And if you can't make a consistent signature ] |
|
I too have a terrible signature that isn’t consistent. I shouldn’t be allowed to mail in because of this?
I feel discriminated against for having poor handwriting.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
No, I didn't say you shouldn't be allowed to vote
May 29, 2020, 5:20 AM
|
|
that way. I'm saying you should probably CHOOSE not to vote that way, or risk your vote not being counted.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [40344]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 23463
Joined: 7/13/12
|
Chicken scratch or not, if I made the effort
May 29, 2020, 5:38 AM
|
|
My vote should be counted
Who determines if a vote is eligible based on signature style? A standard poll worker? Could they be biased and toss out “illegible” signatures?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
I don't really know the mechanism of verification
May 29, 2020, 12:26 PM
|
|
But, obviously you have to trust the people counting the votes to do it correctly and with integrity. No different from how you have to trust the people counting in-person votes, manufacturing machines, tabulating results, etc. Else why have any elections?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
Also, it's not like having a terrible signature
May 29, 2020, 5:21 AM
[ in reply to Are you trying to suppress my vote? ] |
|
is something beyond one's control. You could have a consistent signature if you wanted to. And if it's important to someone to have their mail-in vote counted, they'd probably try harder.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Rock Defender [53]
TigerPulse: 90%
Posts: 35
Joined: 11/30/98
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [56005]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 31617
Joined: 8/27/02
|
Right, so signatures are meaningless.
May 28, 2020, 1:16 PM
|
|
Why do I still have to sign checks? Why does anyone sign contracts? Signatures can be forged and are completely worthless as a tool for determining someone's identity.
Please walk me through the simple logistics of forging a signature well enough that it will trick people whose job it is to verify signatures. For instance, in order for me to forge your signature, I'd need an example of your signature and I would also need your ballot and I would also need the motive to commit election fraud. So walk me through a real life example of how that would not only work but be super easy.
And just to be clear, the signature is ONE way to prevent voter fraud. It's not the ONLY way.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34100]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33601
Joined: 9/13/99
|
And how is it different from in-person voting?
May 28, 2020, 1:48 PM
|
|
The only thing I do there is sign a piece of paper.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34100]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33601
Joined: 9/13/99
|
The issue has partisan implications.
May 28, 2020, 11:46 AM
|
|
The theory is that Democrats do better when there is greater access to voting. It's not necessarily true (see recent election in California that allowed mail-in ballots), but that's the common wisdom.
Accordingly, people who really want Republicans to win are incentivized to argue against mail-in ballots.
This cuts both ways: If we ever end up finding actual problems caused by mail-in ballots, then there will be an equal incentive to for supporters of Democratic candidates to downplay those problems.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
Even if it's true that more people voting means
May 28, 2020, 11:48 AM
|
|
more Democrats win, shouldn't the focus of Republicans be on convincing more people to vote for them, not preventing more people from voting?
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34100]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33601
Joined: 9/13/99
|
Of course no one wants to prevent people from voting.
May 28, 2020, 11:58 AM
|
|
But couldn't the ends justify the means?
Let's say the Republican wants to implement important policies, let's say a policy that prevents abortions. Let's say his opponent is vehemently pro-choice. And let's say preventing some people from voting would greatly help his chances of winning.
Naturally we'll also try to convince more people to vote for the Republican, but why not increase the chances even more? Especially if it saved lives.
It comes down to what you value more.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [34100]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 33601
Joined: 9/13/99
|
Sorry, that didn't make sense. Edited.***
May 28, 2020, 12:30 PM
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
Not so much preventing people from voting...
May 28, 2020, 12:32 PM
[ in reply to Of course no one wants to prevent people from voting. ] |
|
Preventing *more* people from voting. Like, being against something that would lead to more peope voting. I know, at least I hope I know, no one actually wants to stop people who want to vote, from voting.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [11144]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 14027
Joined: 9/2/03
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [56005]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 31617
Joined: 8/27/02
|
Demographic changes are unfavorable for Republicans.
May 28, 2020, 11:55 AM
[ in reply to The issue has partisan implications. ] |
|
Rather than trying to appeal to more people (like the 2012 "autopsy" recommended) they're going all in on their base, which means they need to restrict voting in order to retain power. As David Frum said, "If conservatives become convinced that they can not win democratically, they will not abandon conservatism. The will reject democracy."
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [79400]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 63266
Joined: 10/30/05
|
I tend to think the opposite is true, they've sold out their
May 28, 2020, 12:13 PM
|
|
base in an attempt to woo people who will never vote for them in the first place. How many small government conservatives are actually in offices of importance? What is even the Republican platform? I honestly don't know anymore.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [56005]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 31617
Joined: 8/27/02
|
The Hofeller files spell it all out.
May 28, 2020, 12:34 PM
|
|
This is just one example, but it's so stark and irrefutable that it lays bare the Republicans' ambition to subvert democracy. They also push for purging of voter rolls and push for voter ID. Anything that will disenfranchise people who are unlikely to vote for them.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/30/us/census-citizenship-question-hofeller.html
As far as Republicans being for small government and fiscal restraint, I've always thought that was a joke. It's about as authentic as their concerns about voter fraud.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [79400]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 63266
Joined: 10/30/05
|
Is that so much worse than the Russian collision hoax?
May 28, 2020, 12:43 PM
|
|
Let's be honest with ourselves, neither party is more virtuous than the other.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [56005]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 31617
Joined: 8/27/02
|
That has nothing to do with what we're taling about.
May 28, 2020, 12:55 PM
|
|
This isn't about which party is more virtuous. It seems like any time someone exposes something objectively bad about Republicans or the Republican party the only response is "Yeah but what about Democrats?" or "Well all politicians are bad." It's so ironic to see this tactic employed over and over again from the "personal responsibility" party.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [79400]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 63266
Joined: 10/30/05
|
That's because of the tiresome double standard
May 28, 2020, 1:05 PM
|
|
I'll get outraged about it when everyone is held to the same standard. It's hard to get the motivation to get my pitch fork out for Republicans in the midst of a 4 year long Russian collusion hoax.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [56005]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 31617
Joined: 8/27/02
|
What is the double standard?
May 28, 2020, 1:20 PM
|
|
And why do you keep bringing up Russia when people are talking about voting? You might as well start arguing about the Kennedy assassination. "I'm not getting my pitchfork until we figure out who was on the grassy knoll. That's my contribution to a discussion about how and where we vote"
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [79400]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 63266
Joined: 10/30/05
|
The double standard is micro analyzing Republicans
May 28, 2020, 1:37 PM
|
|
Attempt to” undermine our democracy “while giving a wholesale pass to Democrats for trying to do the same thing with the Russian collusion hoax. Really, isn’t that the same type of disinformation Trump/Russia were accused of in the first place? The type of thing that supposedly stole the election?
I’m not excusing Republican misdeeds, but I don’t want to hear about them from people who turn a blind eye to everything Democrats do.
|
|
|
|
|
|
CU Medallion [56005]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 31617
Joined: 8/27/02
|
You're complaining about people turning a blind eye to
May 28, 2020, 1:51 PM
|
|
their own party's misdeeds while simultaneously defending why you're turning a blind eye to your own party's misdeeds. "It's hard to get the motivation to get my pitch fork out for Republicans in the midst of a 4 year long Russian collusion hoax." For a person who can't stand hypocrisy, that's pretty egregious. And it's another example of how the whole "personal responsibility" thing is a crock. It's really "I'll take responsibility for myself when you take responsibility for yourself," which is the only way to justify objectively bad behavior.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [79400]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 63266
Joined: 10/30/05
|
I'm not turning a blind eye to it, I acknowledge it
May 28, 2020, 2:04 PM
|
|
But I have to lmao at people outraged over it while at the same time whistling through the graveyard during Russian collusion. They clearly aren't serious.
Your posts paint Republicans as the sole conspirators to undermine democracy, if the goal is to avoid that, why focus only on Republican's gerrymandering or desire for voter ID? Back in 2017 or so, I got the idea that Russian misinformation was much more detrimental to our democracy than either of those things. So if we're going to clutch our pearls about gerrymandering/voter ID, let's not forget the now known democrat misinformation campaign for the past 4 years.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-TigerNet [13605]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 12896
Joined: 8/10/13
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [26968]
TigerPulse: 96%
Posts: 44823
Joined: 7/6/10
|
Thank you...
May 28, 2020, 12:22 PM
|
|
Still don't see why the response is "Just say no," as opposed to "let's fix this".
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [75682]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 108835
Joined: 10/26/03
|
Maybe the side that is against it needs to figure out
May 28, 2020, 12:43 PM
|
|
how to work it in their favor.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Athletic Dir [881]
TigerPulse: 57%
Posts: 2125
Joined: 2/3/12
|
It's a really great message
May 28, 2020, 8:26 PM
|
|
to all of the senior citizens who vote absentee. That Trump, besides spitting all over anybody he talks to, is so smart.
|
|
|
|
|
|
All-In [42023]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 38173
Joined: 11/30/98
|
Because those opposed to it aren't worried about fraud...
May 29, 2020, 8:12 AM
|
|
What they're actually worried about is increased turn out.
|
|
|
|
|
|
110%er [5508]
TigerPulse: 94%
Posts: 3806
Joined: 8/23/13
|
Re: I still think the vehement opposition to mail-in voting
May 29, 2020, 10:19 AM
|
|
I read that 25 counties in South Carolina have more registered voters than actual citizens of voting age.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Oculus Spirit [93609]
TigerPulse: 100%
Posts: 95385
Joined: 12/25/09
|
I want fair election without cheating by anyone.
May 29, 2020, 12:41 PM
|
|
It's perfectly honest to say most voter fraud happens with mail in ballots and that mail in ballots are most vulnerable to fraud.
As we reopen our businesses which serve the public we are seeing safety become first priority and learning many ways to protect the public and businesses' employees from the virus. Opening the polling places for longer hours, more days or even weeks would provide safety to those wishing to vote.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Replies: 56
| visibility 1
|
|
|
50
