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All-In [42151]
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Here is the Gillette commercial in its entirety. I'd like...
Jan 17, 2019, 8:31 AM
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... those who are upset about it and want to boycott the company, especially Tiggity, to cite the specific elements or moments in this commercial that bother you.
Don't come in with, "It attacks my masculinity!" or "It's too political." Give me time stamps in the commercial and be specific or GTFO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koPmuEyP3a0
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All-In [40344]
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if looking at hot chicks is wrong
Jan 17, 2019, 8:40 AM
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I don’t wanna be right
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All-In [42151]
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Is that what the commercial tells you?***
Jan 17, 2019, 8:42 AM
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All-In [40344]
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it seems implied somewhere around the 23 second mark
Jan 17, 2019, 8:49 AM
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I’m not up in arms over it, I’m not boycotting anything.
I don’t love companies playing politics, but it’s also marketing and getting the Gillette name mentioned a million times more than it was 2 weeks ago.
Some men are pigs and some women are attention seeking. Say la vee
Boys do be boys sometimes
Bullying is the suxxor
Touching someone on the shoulder in the board room doesn’t seem inappropriate to me at all. Resaying what she said is just a shiddy boss move that’s equally shiddy whether a guy or a girl.
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All-In [42151]
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Re: it seems implied somewhere around the 23 second mark
Jan 17, 2019, 8:51 AM
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Touching someone on the shoulder in the board room doesn’t seem inappropriate to me at all. Resaying what she said is just a shiddy boss move that’s equally shiddy whether a guy or a girl.
Agree with your last part. The first part, though, some people don't like to be touched by people they aren't comfortable with, so it's just a bad idea.
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CU Medallion [54758]
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correct.
Jan 17, 2019, 8:56 AM
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but it's not harrassment.
They don't like it? Don't do it again.
Do it again, and MAYBE it's harrassment.
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All-In [42151]
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Agreed.
Jan 17, 2019, 9:00 AM
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Some people are just touchy-feely. Tell em once and no biggie. I know a guy who was warned once on his job, kept doing it, and it cost him.
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CU Medallion [54758]
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and perhaps it should've...but the portrayal in the ad, like
Jan 17, 2019, 9:03 AM
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most of the others, implies that the non-contextual shoulder touch was simply man's mistreatment of women. Probably about to rape her, actually.
ok, maybe not that last part
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Oculus Spirit [97716]
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All-In [42151]
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Oh, you mean the part...
Jan 17, 2019, 9:01 AM
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Where random bro was about to chase down and harass random girl minding her business on the street?
Do you do that?
That's a little different from just looking.
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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If modern feminism has its way, I'm not sure how men
Jan 17, 2019, 9:50 AM
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are even going to meet women in the future.
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Lot o points [155900]
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Was talking to a lady at a trade show this past weekend,
Jan 17, 2019, 9:55 AM
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she was pretty funny---direct quote....."Guys are scared to ask me out now---I'd pay good money for someone to grab my assss at a bar!"
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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Especially at work, I never talk to women unless directly
Jan 17, 2019, 10:02 AM
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spoken to. And as stated, I won't have a conversation with them unless someone else hears it. I'll NEVER be anywhere alone with a woman who isn't my wife.
I don't know how a single dude these days is going to meet a girl. If you can't even talk to them, then it's only going to get more difficult from there.
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Lot o points [155900]
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It is pretty funny....in a span of just a few years,
Jan 17, 2019, 10:07 AM
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people like Mike Pence went from laughingstocks for refusing to be with women in a 1:1 environment, to a lot of guys going "man, that's a good idea".
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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I never used to think much about it.
Jan 17, 2019, 10:15 AM
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But then I had HR come into my office and accuse me of "barking like a dog" at someone walking down the hall, and suddenly, it became a pretty good idea to act like nervous preacher all the time.
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Orange Blooded [2455]
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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He's not up on any charges for harassment***
Jan 17, 2019, 11:54 AM
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Oculus Spirit [78884]
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Lot o points [155900]
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No, but probably a solid 7-7.5. Not a hag.***
Jan 17, 2019, 10:37 AM
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All-In [42151]
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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I don't meet any women, anymore.
Jan 17, 2019, 11:49 AM
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But I guess that's a possible way, isn't it?
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Orange Blooded [3389]
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CU Medallion [54758]
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I see nothing wrong with this
Jan 17, 2019, 8:56 AM
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heck, my kids do this to strangers in restaurants ALL.THE.TIME.
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Oculus Spirit [97716]
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Re: Here is the Gillette commercial in its entirety. I'd like...
Jan 17, 2019, 8:58 AM
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0:02 - The MeToo movement - disagree with it 0:05 - "toxic masculinity" - How about toxic feminism?
So they say bullying, Me Too, and toxic masculinity then ask if that's the best a man can get? Already sunk the whole thing in 8 seconds.
Then they go to show an example of bullying. Mean text messages. Sexual harassment is "taking over"? We're 20 seconds in now. Been going on far too long? Like 2 million years or so. We're at 22 seconds now. They show a man grabbing a woman's butt. That was 19 seconds in. I've had several women grab my butt. More women have grabbed my butt than I've grabbed women's. Every freaking man I know who isn't gay, has grabbed a woman's butt at some point. 27 seconds they say we can't laugh it off. That's true. Comedy is dead now. 33 seconds in he has the nerve to disagree over an issue at a business meeting. He may have disagreed with 4 men before her. We're at 33 seconds now. Two boys fighting. Every boy gets into a fight. That's NORMAL. And no, boys can't be boys anymore. We're 35 seconds into it now. Men and grills? PLEASE. How about a few more stereotypes? 38 seconds in. A bunch of talking heads....that's the real kicker right there. As if they give the "crisis" legitimacy somehow. We're at 43 seconds. 1:05 It's "not cool" to look at a hot woman walking by? ###?
They sure as hell aren't selling me on a quality razor at a reasonable price.
Ok, I don't have time to keep going. I've got to go change a diaper. Took the kids to school this morning. Made their lunch. Washed a load of clothes and folded another. Fed them breakfast with food I purchased at the grocery store. Dressed them. Now I'm going to work.
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CU Medallion [54758]
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your last paragraph...kinda surprised...din't know
Jan 17, 2019, 9:00 AM
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you were a woman.
#didIdoitright?
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Heisman Winner [137907]
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Check your toxic jounginity, bro.***
Jan 17, 2019, 9:20 AM
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All-In [42151]
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Re: Here is the Gillette commercial in its entirety. I'd like...
Jan 17, 2019, 9:06 AM
[ in reply to Re: Here is the Gillette commercial in its entirety. I'd like... ] |
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All the things you've listed are valid issues. Look at what you're brushing off as non-issues:
-Bullying -Grabbing women's ##### -Fighting (no, getting into fights isn't normal... unless you come from some place where this is the norm... where I live, you go to jail) -Sexual harassment
That is toxic masculinity. It's a thing. If you don't engage in such behavior, why should pointing it out bother you?
And back to the 1:05 part: I'm not sure what you're watching, but it depicts a random dude about to harass a random girl on the street. His bro stops him. You really think there's something wrong with stating men shouldn't do this to women who are minding their business?
How on earth can men on grills get you upset?
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CU Medallion [54758]
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short answer, It implies all men engage in these behaviors,
Jan 17, 2019, 9:12 AM
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the exception being the few at the end coming to their senses (probably only after watching a razor commercial, of course), casting this stereotype (see 'grills') on all men.
This approach has become the norm, and it kinda dilutes the actual message
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All-In [42151]
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I guess I'm not seeing that.
Jan 17, 2019, 9:14 AM
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Especially with the "self-reflection" style intro. Seems to be a pretty good lesson: Take a stand for what's right because younger dudes are watching.
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CU Medallion [54758]
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I don't think anyone disagrees that THAT is a fine message***
Jan 17, 2019, 9:16 AM
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Heisman Winner [111559]
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Re: short answer, It implies all men engage in these behaviors,
Jan 17, 2019, 9:19 AM
[ in reply to short answer, It implies all men engage in these behaviors, ] |
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maybe the people getting all defensive over this stuff are secretly gay, and wish they could have some toxic masculinity pointed their way. I know this is Pawski's issue.
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CU Medallion [54758]
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secretly???
Jan 17, 2019, 9:20 AM
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Oculus Spirit [78884]
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CU Medallion [54758]
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no, not in
Jan 17, 2019, 9:36 AM
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2019
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All-In [42151]
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Re: what if
Jan 17, 2019, 9:41 AM
[ in reply to what if ] |
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Sure. I reckon so. But let's pretend it's a Vegas line... where's your money?
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Oculus Spirit [78884]
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ha ha
Jan 17, 2019, 9:48 AM
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I am betting on him being a total d i c k
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All-TigerNet [12851]
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in 2019 the only safe way is with DIKK pics on tender
Jan 17, 2019, 9:44 AM
[ in reply to what if ] |
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THATS not harassment apparently.
or so the kids tell me
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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Fighting is absolutely normal for boys, w tf are you talking
Jan 17, 2019, 10:03 AM
[ in reply to Re: Here is the Gillette commercial in its entirety. I'd like... ] |
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about? If you're still getting in fights at 35, sure, you probably have a problem. You cannot possibly believe that boys getting into fights is not normal.
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All-In [42151]
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Yeah, I remember it when I was younger.
Jan 17, 2019, 11:18 AM
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Don't remember any good coming out of it, and I know some guys today 35 and up who still think that's how you deal with problems.
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Oculus Spirit [97716]
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I remember the good from it.
Jan 17, 2019, 11:46 AM
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The bullies left me alone.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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To be fair, there are people out there who only respond to
Jan 17, 2019, 11:51 AM
[ in reply to Yeah, I remember it when I was younger. ] |
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the threat of violence. You don't run across them often, but they're out there.
A lot of good can come from adolescent fighting, actually. Helps you learn how to interact with other people. In fact, I think that's what a lot of people lack these days, which is why they think they can run their mouth to anyone without consequence.
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Lot o points [155900]
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that's a fair point..........
Jan 17, 2019, 12:18 PM
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getting punched in the nose as a youth is a great lesson that everyone in the world doesn't value your opinion as much as you do.
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All-In [42151]
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Oculus Spirit [97716]
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Irony is not lost on the fact that the best way to stop
Jan 17, 2019, 11:44 AM
[ in reply to Fighting is absolutely normal for boys, w tf are you talking ] |
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bullying is to fight back. I'm living proof of that.
I was bullied as a kid by one of the other kids in the neighborhood. Several actually, but one more than others. He was tall and almost a head taller than I was. Problem was he was friends with one of my friends, and we ended up playing together and crossing paths more than I liked. Anyway he used to call me names, pushed me around, tripped me, pushed me down on the ground. Kicked me. Threw pine cones at me. Was just a bully. This went on for like a year or two. Went home one day crying and my parents had heard enough. I'd been complaining about him for a long time. I think my parents even called his parents, I'm not sure. But that day my dad told me something that I never heard him say before, or since. "He said go out there and fight back. Punch him in the nose. He will leave you alone." My parents had always told me fighting was bad. Never to do it, etc. And I never did. Well, I walked out there and went back to playing with my friend. I was going to wait until he gave me an excuse to fight back. Took all of maybe five minutes for him to push me down. I jumped back up and punched him in the nose as he was standing there laughing at me, and then just wailed on him for probably a good 2 minutes. He ran home with a bloody nose crying.
He never bullied me, or anyone else again. His parents never called my parents either. To this day that's the only fight I've ever been in. AND, the other kids in the neighborhood stopped bullying me.
I used to be bullied at school also. 7th grade was the first time I could try out for football, and I jumped at the opportunity. First full pad practice I took full advantage of the opportunity and laid out a LOT of people who had bullied me. Football stopped me getting bullied in school. Coach made me linebacker because I hit and tackled so hard.
Point is bullying is normal and there are life lessons to be learned from it. Fighting as well. No one should ever bully or fight, but there are always people who will. You avoid them at all costs but there comes a time when you have to fight back. That's the benefit to bullying, if there is one. And every person who was a bully that I knew growing up ended up being far less successful as adults than those who were good kids. And to this day this song still teaches a good lesson:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNxcR7seOeM
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Lot o points [155900]
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That seems really extreme.....
Jan 17, 2019, 11:45 AM
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I'm actually surprised you couldn't put an end to his antics with a lengthy monologue.
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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Too bad this Gillette commercial wasn't around then
Jan 17, 2019, 11:53 AM
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He could have just shown him that. I bet that kid would have just gone home and never bothered him again.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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I can just envision the future now...
Jan 17, 2019, 12:10 PM
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China and Russia (Undoubtedly because of information given to them by Trump) are stepping up hostilities. China is moving on some of our holdings in the Pacific...Russia has allied itself with Turkey and other Eastern European nations to prepare for an assault on our Allies.
An invasion is imminent. Pearl Harbor is under constant bombardment, Russian subs are being spotted off of the East coast. WWIII is upon us.
We're scrambling to react...We've already sent James Taylor to Moscow to sing them into submission. He has not returned. Our strong, emotional protests have been met with bullets. The Department of Defense is searching far and wide for a racially ambiguous female lead to head up our army, but is coming up empty....
We're running out of all feasible options....
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CU Medallion [54758]
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seems unlikely, honestly.
Jan 17, 2019, 12:22 PM
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not even ONE mention of Gillette's role in all of this.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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Hopefully, by then all of the American men will have evolved
Jan 17, 2019, 12:25 PM
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into whatever it is they want us to be. The Gillette ad will be for the invading forces. Our beachfront bars will blast the ad as they land on the beaches, teaching them the error of their ways.
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All-In [42151]
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Re: Irony is not lost on the fact that the best way to stop
Jan 17, 2019, 2:21 PM
[ in reply to Irony is not lost on the fact that the best way to stop ] |
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What you describe is an act of self defense. I view that differently.
But there are also many scenarios where throwing that punch can result in terrible consequences for a young man, and arguing you were bullied won't hold up much in a court.
Self defense is one thing, but there's more than one way to deal with a bully than throwing a punch. In fact, I would argue there are far more effective ways to frighten them without ever resorting to physical violence.
When your only option, however, is to fight back, sure, I get it.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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What would those ways be? Seriously
Jan 17, 2019, 3:31 PM
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Threaten to burn down his house? Blackmail?
I tend to think the "run tell a teacher" tactic that so many adults tell children to take does more harm than good ultimately. Legal threats are B.S. too, that's some chicken sheet stuff.
In fact (Big time reach coming here, and I could be totally FOS), I think that mentality has a lot to do with some of the problems we see in our police departments. These run tell a teacher people are now adults, and they call them for EVERYTHING. Get in a disagreement with a neighbor: Call the cops. Kid won't come out of his room: Call the cops (this happens more often than you think). They simply don't know how to deal with conflict on their own. And the very reason throwing that punch can end up resulting in terrible consequences is BECAUSE of these type of people.
If I were a cop, that would have to get old. I could see beating a mfer down after 3 or 4 B.S. calls like that.
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All-In [42151]
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Re: What would those ways be? Seriously
Jan 17, 2019, 4:04 PM
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I mean, I don't care to get all anecdotal or go into specifics (would anyone really care?), but I've dealt with people like that several times without having to throw a punch.
The last real fight I was in, I was 26, so 14 years ago. I didn't have a choice; dude attacked me from behind. I bloodied his nose and he backed down, but I messed up my shoulder in the process. The whole incident was stupid. I "won," I guess. But I paid more of the price. Again, not much I could do other than that at the moment. Looking back, I could have defused the situation earlier even though the guy was in the wrong.
For the incidents you list about going to the police, yeah, I mean, obviously some people take it too much to a tattle-telling level with cops over silly crap. But for every one of those, how many times do we read in SC about two guys who did try to "handle it like men" and someone gets killed while the other goes to jail? So there's extremes on both ends.
If a kid is getting physically attacked and has no choice but to fight back, I get it. But most fights at that age boil down to someone said something the other person didn't like, and that's not the lesson we want kids to get out of life.
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CU Medallion [60043]
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Re: Here is the Gillette commercial in its entirety. I'd like...
Jan 17, 2019, 1:36 PM
[ in reply to Re: Here is the Gillette commercial in its entirety. I'd like... ] |
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You posts’ in this thread tell me you have a p-ussy and it’s been grabbed and that you more than likely throw, run and make sandwiches like a chick too.
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All-In [42151]
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Re: Here is the Gillette commercial in its entirety. I'd like...
Jan 17, 2019, 4:06 PM
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One thing that's a guarantee on this board: Those of you who boast about being billy bad ##### and wanting to fight are actually the ones who are the biggest weenies. You're leading that pack.
If you have to boast about how tough you are on a message board, it's a certainty that you aren't in real life.
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Oculus Spirit [83115]
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Oculus Spirit [97716]
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They aren't Boy Scouts anymore. We have two girls in our
Jan 17, 2019, 10:35 AM
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den now. Son's in "Scouts" now. And it took all of two den meetings for the impacts to be noticed.
This past Tuesday we had our second den meeting with the two girls in the den. One activity we did was a game where all the scouts sit at a round table and each one says a word or two, no more than two words. Then you go around the table adding a word or two each time until you make a story.
So den leader picked a scout and told him to start and pick the FIRST word. He chose one word, "Girls", then looked over at the two girls. They all started laughing, as did us dads. Then the second scout was chosen and the predictable awkwardness began in earnest. Second scout just sat there frozen, obviously thinking what to say, and he chose one word too, "are". Third scout sat there thinking and said "the". Den leader bailed the boys out by picking one of the girls for the inevitable noun or adjective. She said "best". Fifth scout said "ever". Then they went on to another sentence. But I promise that whole exercise would have gone totally differently had there not been two girls there. It was funny seeing them avoid the nouns or multiple words at all costs. It was awkward. Excellent way to start off the "story" though from Noah. He's the instigator, trouble-maker, and also the smartest of the bunch probably. He's like a 10yo version of Val Kilmer's character in Real Genius.
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Oculus Spirit [78884]
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I got problems with this video
Jan 17, 2019, 9:30 AM
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### has it do with a ###### razor?
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Lot o points [155900]
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Shame on Gillette for fat shaming and promoting false
Jan 17, 2019, 9:47 AM
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ideals of beauty.
I mean, why can't the Guido guy on the street be going after a Carnie Wilson lookalike? I, for one, don't appreciate Gillette presuming the typical female that a male finds attractive, and objectifying women in the process.
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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Why do I need to be preached to by a razor company?
Jan 17, 2019, 9:49 AM
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Its the continued denigration of men--we're already guilty. Look at almost every advertisement and TV show. The man is lovable, dumb goof. The guy who is just dumb, and has to be saved by the wife.
Regardless what the media and Hollywood would like you to think, most of us aren't Harvey Weinstein. I'm scared to even talk to a woman at work, and I'd certainly never do it unless others were listening. And I NEVER be alone with one.
I'm just tired of being preached at by something that doesn't affect me, nor anyone I know?
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Lot o points [155900]
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Yup, two laws of modern commercials:
Jan 17, 2019, 9:51 AM
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1) Dumbassses are always men. 2) If it's a security system ad, the burglar is always white.
This snapshot of reality brought to you by the Ad Council of America
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Oculus Spirit [83115]
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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Is it?
Jan 17, 2019, 9:58 AM
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It's not a huge issue for me, and that's all I really have to go by.
The only dealing I've had with it was about 10 years ago when a woman at work tried to slander me and 4 other directors because she got yelled at by her boss in a meeting. After her allegations of a "hostile workplace" couldn't be substantiated, we later found out that doing this kind of thing was sort of a side gig for her. She had done the same at the last place she worked as well.
So no, I don't really know what goes on outside my little sphere of the world.
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Oculus Spirit [79429]
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We're told this rarely happens though
Jan 17, 2019, 10:08 AM
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Despite the fact that you can go in any medium to large size company and find multiple people with a similar story.
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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I'm not sure how much the place I worked for paid her
Jan 17, 2019, 10:11 AM
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to go away. All I know is that she was in her late 20's-early 30's, moved from Maryland to be a low-middle manager at a healthcare company, and immediately bought a house on Daniel Island. I always wondered how she did that.
Then later, I found out.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Not any more than anything else.
Jan 17, 2019, 1:55 PM
[ in reply to Yet, you will acknowledge that it’s a huge issue in our ] |
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Certain things are pushed in our face for political utility, and then corporations and Twitter-heros attach themselves to it for the ulterior benefits.
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CU Medallion [73569]
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my, aren't you bossy!***
Jan 17, 2019, 9:51 AM
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Commissioner [907]
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Re: Here is the Gillette commercial in its entirety. I'd like...
Jan 17, 2019, 9:52 AM
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Shouldn't the commercial be about the razors and blades themselves instead of saying men need to improve. I didn't realize women were not going to use a Gillette product. The whole ad is a dig at the worst of men's actions. For a commercial about shaving gear it is a 1 on a scale of 10. I don't need Gillette selling me a social agenda.
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Heisman Winner [111559]
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Re: Here is the Gillette commercial in its entirety. I'd like...
Jan 17, 2019, 10:41 AM
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if more women would shave above their vag with Gillette products, I think you would see a lot more men treating them with respect.
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110%er [5508]
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Re: Here is the Gillette commercial in its entirety. I'd like...
Jan 17, 2019, 10:35 AM
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just a last ditch effort since people aren't buying their expensive razors anymore
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110%er [6639]
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Re: Here is the Gillette commercial in its entirety. I'd like...
Jan 17, 2019, 11:52 AM
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Pretty simple huh.
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All-In [38514]
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I liked the ad, but...
Jan 17, 2019, 10:44 AM
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I also don't go out of my way to find things to be offended by.
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Legend [17285]
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Those offended must be like “closet snowflakes”.***
Jan 17, 2019, 1:05 PM
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CU Medallion [55747]
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just shut up and sell razor blades***
Jan 17, 2019, 12:25 PM
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All-In [40656]
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0:00 to 1:48
Jan 17, 2019, 1:21 PM
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Gillette charges more for womens razors than comparable mens products.
They're hypocrites.
Beyond that, its not a brands responsibility to tell anyone who they should be or how they should act. I do not need, nor desire some billion dollar company to try to tell me that my actions aren't up their "moral standards".
Their job is to supply a product. To hell with them, and their overpriced razors.
https://relevantmagazine.com/culture/tv/the-real-problem-with-that-gillette-ad-isnt-the-message/
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All-In [40656]
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Additional commentary
Jan 17, 2019, 1:26 PM
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Not ONCE in the commercial was a person of color a "bully" or taking part in sexual harassment. The only person of color in the entire commercial that is doing anything "wrong" is saying "boys will be boys".
But the two instances of someone stepping in to "stop" "sexual harassment", both were african Americans stopping a white guy.
So not only is Gillette a bunch of sexist soy boys, they are perpetuating that "toxic masculinity" can only be found in Caucasian males.
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Lot o points [155900]
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If I'm hearing you correctly, they should have
Jan 17, 2019, 1:34 PM
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spliced in the Ray Rice elevator video, right?
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All-In [40656]
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100% correct
Jan 17, 2019, 1:35 PM
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But acting like they don't plan the roles in the commercial based on race would be completely lying to yourself.
They portray a black kid as being a bully, they are racist.
Portraying a black kid as some hero to a white woman = hero.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Using the phrase "toxic masculinity" is disgusting.
Jan 17, 2019, 1:52 PM
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It is conflating sexual aggression with masculinity. It is moralizing gender. It is absolutely sexism. It's essentially putting men on notice that they, in particular, need to tone down some of their common urges because those urges are evil.
I do consider this type of thing to be a causal factor in the destruction of Western Civilization. That's going to sound crazy and over-the-top to a lot of people, but some things have more impact than you realize. It has it's sources in party politics, but the people who should be the most embarrassed are the ones who use such nonsense to artificially inflate their sense of self-worth.
It's mass mental illness. And I will never use Gillette again for anything. I realize that won't make a difference, but it's my preference.
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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Is Western Civilization being destroyed?***
Jan 17, 2019, 1:54 PM
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Dynastic cycle. It's on the way down.
Jan 17, 2019, 1:57 PM
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Things go in cycles. This downward move is just especially annoying to me.
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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So.. we're cycling out?***
Jan 17, 2019, 2:16 PM
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Haha, yeah.***
Jan 17, 2019, 2:20 PM
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Legend [18023]
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You are the one conflating.
Jan 17, 2019, 3:05 PM
[ in reply to Using the phrase "toxic masculinity" is disgusting. ] |
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No where does the commercial say that sexual urges by men are evil. What it does say is the actions taken by some men and often tolerated by others to fulfill those sexual urges is improper. You even acknowledge this happens when you talk about "sexual aggression."
The commercial is clear in saying that it supports masculinity by literally saying 'they (Gillette) believes in the best in men" and then shows that to mean standing up to bullying and sexual harassment. It's pretty specific and clear in what it is defining as "toxic" but in no way is the commercial conflating sexual aggression with all of masculinity. You have to bring a ton of personal baggage with you to see it as such.
I admit I laughed at you saying this commercial is a "casual factor in the destruction of Western Civilization," mainly because it's saying that a commercial proposing that people (men in this case) act like decent human beings will directly lead to the end of civilization. Tell me that doesn't scream something the Onion would write.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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You are falling for their attempts to walk both lines.
Jan 17, 2019, 3:58 PM
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When a person accused of White Supremacy tries to clarify their statements by explicitly stating “White Supremacy is evil” it doesn’t make a bit of difference. Why? The argument leveled against them is that championing certain ideas or phrases are “dog whistles” and automatically means someone is carrying the banner forward for White Supremacy whether or not they say it explicitly.
There are extremely obvious double standards all over the place. Double standards leads to prejudice and bigotry. Mainstream media and many large corporations are contributing to very pronounced double standards that clearly lead to prejudice and bigotry. Logic loses to delusion.
When Gillette made this commercial, they used a phrase that carries with it a package of values and assumptions about masculinity. If Trump can’t talk out of both sides of his mouth, neither can corporations just because they are more adept at bullsh*tting.
It is absolutely a socially destructive force because it represents the further erosion of rational thought. It advances bigotry, political correctness, and is an example of radical identity politics.
Anyone who can’t see the massive double standards in our society has been thoroughly conditioned to ignore logic and embrace group think. That is a massive blow to Western Civilization whether or not you realize it. Self-awareness is a pre-requisite for assessing groups.
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Legend [18023]
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Gillette made a commercial talking about toxic masculinity
Jan 17, 2019, 4:25 PM
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not masculinity, which again, you actually agree with when you cite the existence of "sexual aggression." Only you conflated this specific messaging with an attack on all of "masculinity." What two sides of their mouth did Gillette talk out of? Their message seems pretty clearly stated and one-sided.
Can't you see that it's you and others who are bringing their own opinions and issues to the table and ascribing them to Gillette? You make that pretty clear when you bring white supremacy, dog whistling, double standards, bigotry, prejudice, mainstream media, Trump, political correctness, radical identity politics into a conversation about a Gillette commercial that advocates not bullying or sexually harassing women. When grouped together like that, your last line about needing self-awareness as a prerequisite for assessing groups becomes incredibly ironic, don't ya think?
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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The suggestion of the existence of toxic masculinity is the problem.
Jan 17, 2019, 5:46 PM
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That phrase is like saying Toxic Blackness, or Toxic Whiteness.
It's a complete fabrication in order to divide and conquer using identity politics.
Toxic behavior is NOT associated with masculinity. Toxic behavior is NOT associated with race. Either we are consistent, or we are full of sh*t. There is no middle ground.
Again, you should be able to easily see the double standard that is irrational.
Rape is not a part of masculinity. Rape is a behavior that should never be associated in any way with being a man. That is the very definition of prejudice.
Just like being a manipulative liar should never be associated with being a woman. Or being a lesser educated criminal should ever be associated with a certain race.
This should be obvious but because our society has been infected with irrational, double-standards through group-think, the logical opinion must be carefully defended.
Our society is truly mad. And it is absolutely an extremely destructive force to our way of life. Far more than terrorism, or institutional racism, or assault weapons, or any of the other politically motivated BS that is shoved in our faces by dishonest mass media narrative.
Our ability to have ANY meaningful discourse is nearly totally extinct. There are layers of dishonest BS that has caged nearly everyone's world views. It is truly a historical disaster.
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Legend [18023]
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This is where subtlety of arguments comes into play
Jan 17, 2019, 6:21 PM
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and why a less than 2 minute commercial that uses the term causes issues. It simply can't allow for extremely detailed and nuanced arguments to be made.
I don't necessarily disagree with everything you said, but I would counter that toxic masculinity is giving a term to a set of conditioned cultural behaviors found in men that are seen as negative (violence, sexual aggression, not dealing with feelings, etc.) and are found in all types of men in a culture. That makes it a more generalized term about a specific set of cultural attributes and so it's not similar to "toxic blackness" or "toxic whiteness" as those terms describe a stereotyping of attributes within a narrow set that could easily be applied to the general whole as the narrow label of "black" or "white." In other words, the terms exist in different arenas of argument (one rational, the other irrational)
I think you and many of the others actually agree with the overall message of the gillette commercial but the use of "toxic masculinity" is such a trigger word for other ideas and beliefs that you immediately wrap the whole commercial in a larger tapestry of identity politics. I say this because as you say "rape is not a part of masculinity and should never be associated with being a man." I would say that's exactly the point the Gillete commercial is making, at least, in the belief is the same while the examples are different. The commercial is saying that what some in society have deemed to be "masculine" (violence and sexual aggression) isn't the best parts of men (or masculinity) and should be called out for it. That real masculinity is fighting for those that need help and for being a decent human to others.
Again, your last paragraphs are examples of what you're bringing with you when you watch a razor commercial that is basically parroting Melania Trump's "be best" campaign.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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This is a bunch of lawyering that only obfuscates.
Jan 17, 2019, 6:34 PM
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The use of the phrase toxic masculinity is wrong. It is associating two things that should never be associated. You can try to chip away at that thesis by indirectly addressing secondary and tertiary elements of the debate, but at the root of the issue, by being willing to even USE that phrase you are demonstrating extreme hypocrisy.
You would NEVER use the phrase toxic blackness. Or toxic femininity. Why, because what is NORMAL has influenced how you apply your logic.
What is NORMAL has been used in different eras to justify things we now currently find repulsive. Manifest Destiney was once normal, and rational moderates defended it. Slavery was once normal, and rational moderates defended it. White Man's Burden... colonization, crusading.... whatever.
You are falling into the same trap that every generation before us is now being judged by. Being influenced by society is the explanation for how "good, intelligent" people seem so evil, or hateful, or silly, or backwards to us now. You think that historical trend is magically stopping for your generation?
It's not. Your double standard is socially constructed, and it is fundamentally irrational. Giving any legitimacy to the concept of toxic masculinity is BEING PREJUDICED. It is associating being a man with rape. I reject that prejudice 100% Just like I would reject prejudice for any other group of people.
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Legend [18023]
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Let's simplify this argument...
Jan 17, 2019, 6:38 PM
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take the word "toxic masculinity" out of the commercial. How do you perceive the message of the commercial?
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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I'd have to rewatch it, but it would change it, at least some, I'm sure.***
Jan 17, 2019, 6:40 PM
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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I would still think it was stupid, but not nearly
Jan 17, 2019, 6:41 PM
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as destructive.
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Legend [18023]
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I'd be curious as to what parts would be "stupid"
Jan 17, 2019, 6:45 PM
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but maybe that's for a different conversation.
I actually agree that using the term "toxic masculinity" was foolish by Gillette because it's such a trigger word for both sides, but I don't think the actual message in the rest of the commercial was wrong at all. And all the arguments I've seen from those that saw the commercial negatively stems from the use of that one phrase which I think is pretty telling, if not, unexpected.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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The fact that Gillette is making that message is problematic
Jan 17, 2019, 6:54 PM
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It's not their place.
Imagine is a product line associated with a certain race made a commercial about avoiding common transgressions statistically associated with that race? I would be JUST as upset and vociferous about that as I am about this. It's prejudice. No individual should ever have to watch a commercial that is asking them to overcome the darker parts of their "nature." That's disgusting.
If they want to have events that people can show up for.... power to them. But commercials end up targeting men in front of the whole country.
Most people are idiots. Just like when I'm sure you would criticize Trump for inciting potential violence with his xenophobic rhetoric, there is a destructive consequence for corporations associating masculinity with bad behavior.
We all know it's an outgrowth of the witch-hunt MeToo movement. BLM and MeToo are extremely politically useful for Democrats. And they badly damage honest discourse. It's about delegitimizing people before they can even speak. Creating a victim class has secured the political future for the democratic party. (Not a Republican)
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Legend [18023]
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Gillette has a tagline that says "the best a man can get"
Jan 17, 2019, 7:32 PM
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which is what the whole commercial is re-contextualizing. The focus of the company is on men, and so is this commercial. Advertising is about selling an ideal version of a life that the product can help create. It's that simple.
No where does the ad say anything about "overcoming their nature" it's celebrating and trying to reinforce the best parts of what it means to be a man in the world. It's condemning certain behaviors from a male perspective because it's a male oriented company. That's not saying it's condemning masculinity, it simply is condemning what it views as awful behaviors and is doing so from a male perspective because it's a company selling to males.
Also you say that there is a destructive consequence for corporations associating masculinity with bad behavior (which, the ad clearly also includes good behaviors tied to masculinity so your point is lost here) but you ignore the destructive consequence of ignoring such behaviors or dismissing them as "normal."
Once again, your whole last paragraph is just the political baggage you are bringing to the commercial.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Re: Gillette has a tagline that says "the best a man can get"
Jan 17, 2019, 7:47 PM
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Well, it's obvious that you are an intelligent, thoughtful person. But I believe very strongly that you are being naive. I think you are missing the macro, structural reasons that led to this commercial. This did not happen in a vacuum. I'm sure you are aware of special interest groups and their disproportionate impact on discourse in this country. It's not a conspiratorial stretch to connect the dots. I'll leave it at that.
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Legend [18023]
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Fair enough***
Jan 17, 2019, 9:23 PM
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CU Guru [1907]
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You want to see harassment
Jan 20, 2019, 4:46 PM
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Go to work with a gaggle of female nurses. They are something, get a bit handsy, talk bawdy and with plenty of innuendo to boot. Myself, I like being around them because they do not pantie bunch over much at all.
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All-In [42151]
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OK.***
Jan 20, 2019, 6:45 PM
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Replies: 97
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