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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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I don't see this as a dem/pub, conservative/progressive...
Jun 17, 2020, 3:29 PM
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issue.
"School Choice Would Spell Doom for ‘Systemic Racism’ of Bad Schools...
In short, the vast majority of Americans have no choice whatsoever when it comes to the school their children attend. For the overwhelming majority of Americans, education options are nil. They have no choice but to attend the school that their ZIP code dictates they do.
This is ludicrous. All Americans, regardless of race or income, should have an array of options when it comes to the most vital element of their lives: their education..."
https://www.redstate.com/heartlandinstitute/2020/06/17/school-choice-would-spell-doom-for-so-called-%e2%80%98systemic-racism%e2%80%99/
There's only one thing worse than sending kids to schools which can't educate them and that's not sending them to school at all. Imo this is America's biggest and most critical problem. I would also recommend that no child gets promoted to the next higher grade until that child can read, spell, be proficient in math and science for the grade they moved from.
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CU Medallion [56069]
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You gotta be shittin' me.
Jun 17, 2020, 3:39 PM
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Yeah, what's conservative about a right wing media outlet endorsing something Trump said about the problem with public schools and teachers' unions?
And LOL out loud @ school choice being "the civil rights [issue] of all-time in this country."
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All-In [49040]
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The day after vouchers...
Jun 17, 2020, 3:55 PM
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Private schools A, B, C, and D announced tuition increases today. Although representatives from each claim the price increase has been planned for months, the increase was exactly equal to the voucher currently being offered by the state.
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Lot o points [155905]
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So basically like college tuition post-Hope scholarship.***
Jun 17, 2020, 5:56 PM
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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So you're saying our school system is as good as...
Jun 17, 2020, 5:46 PM
[ in reply to You gotta be shittin' me. ] |
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our children deserve?
FYI, I've been criticizing our school system for two decades.
Message was edited by: ClemsonTiger1988®
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All-In [42151]
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What, exactly, overall, would you say is the issue?
Jun 18, 2020, 12:52 AM
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I mean, hell, no system in this nation is perfect. I'm sure there are lots of valid flaws. But what's the reason to hurt it more with the voucher system?
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Legend [15216]
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School choice would eventually segregate schools based on
Jun 17, 2020, 3:40 PM
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academics I would assume.
In each school district, you'd have the 1 or 2 schools that every upper middle class smart kid would try to attend, and that school would have all the AP classes, etc.
Then you'd have the next couple schools that would overflow from the top school that kids couldn't get into.
Then you'd have the bottom of the barrel for the families/kids who don't give a darn. No teachers would ever want to teach at those schools.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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Re: School choice would eventually segregate schools based on
Jun 17, 2020, 5:45 PM
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So, that's better than dragging good students down by trying to teach those who don't give a chit in the same classes.
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110%er [7207]
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Well there ya go
Jun 17, 2020, 5:49 PM
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Let's just stop making education compulsory. The kids who don't give a chit or whose parents aren't willing to put in a little effort will just weed themselves out. Think of all the money we could save taxpayers by not even trying with those losers!
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110%er [8984]
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Re: I don't see this as a dem/pub, conservative/progressive...
Jun 17, 2020, 3:46 PM
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one party stands in the door, always
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Orange Blooded [3516]
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Re: I don't see this as a dem/pub, conservative/progressive...
Jun 17, 2020, 3:47 PM
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You are correct, it shouldn’t be a partisan issue...EVERYONE should consider it/vouchers a horrible idea and see it for what it really is...a way to actually further segregate the haves from the have nots.
To those middle class folks who are in horrible school districts and decry that they need vouchers so their kid can attend local private school (i.e the local indoctrination church school)...I would advise you to do what you tell poor folks all the time when they can’t find opportunity locally...just move to a better district.
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110%er [8984]
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Re: I don't see this as a dem/pub, conservative/progressive...
Jun 17, 2020, 3:49 PM
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how about it would introduce competition between schools to be the best they can be
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Legend [15216]
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That's not reality. A school is only as good as the kids,
Jun 17, 2020, 3:55 PM
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and that's just a reflection of the family.
As an upper middle class white guy, I'm all for school choice. It would help further separate the conscientious kids from those who don't care.
Let's not pretend it would help "even out" anything.
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110%er [8984]
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Re: That's not reality. A school is only as good as the kids,
Jun 17, 2020, 4:21 PM
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i am not sure how to fix a family, but i think having a clean school and great teachers would draw a crowd
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Orange Blooded [3516]
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Re: I don't see this as a dem/pub, conservative/progressive...
Jun 17, 2020, 4:42 PM
[ in reply to Re: I don't see this as a dem/pub, conservative/progressive... ] |
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I was being a little soapboxy with my initial response...sorry...but I just don’t think it would work they way proponents sell it in their marketing materials.
For the average middle class family it can sound like a great idea...and it would probably work great for many families as it would get their kid(s) away from the riffraff (aka poor kids).
But the reality is the vouchers likely wouldn’t cover all the costs associated with a private school and the poorest wouldn’t be able to make up the difference. Those private schools would also be incentivized to try and stay on top for the competitive reasons discussed above...so they would certainly pick and choose students very carefully to keep their numbers up. So...the poor kids get left behind in whatever version of public schools that remain...with decreased funding and the least qualified/experienced teachers...future widening the gap between them and those fortunate enough to be born into better circumstances.
Public schools have their issues for sure...some a lot of issues. But they don’t have the advantage of being able to pick and choose their students. They are charged with trying to educate all...a huge challenge to be sure.
As a society, we should be concentrating on giving these schools/kids the support they need to succeed instead of trying to justify segregation and racial/class discrimination in the name of competition.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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Blacks see it as an opportunity to better education.
Jun 17, 2020, 5:50 PM
[ in reply to Re: I don't see this as a dem/pub, conservative/progressive... ] |
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Your assumption that blacks will be left to wither in public schools is racist. There is no discrimination in the voucher system. Millions of black families would love to send their kids to schools which provide better education than the ones they are in now.
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All-TigerNet [11630]
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I wrote this for another bored, but it applies...
Jun 17, 2020, 3:52 PM
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No change in K-12 or school funding will change anything unless the parents at home value an education. The vast majority of the time if the parents don't care, neither do the kids. No level of funding or reform will change that unless the parents at home do first.
Also, changing the curriculum to better prepare students also means more kids will likely fail.
The US public education systems has been trying to raise the bar by lowering it for decades.
Also, we need to bring back and keep honors courses. Sorry little Timmy isn't that smart, but he's not getting in to honors classes. Not everyone is equal. Some people are just smarter and can be pushed further.
If you really want education reform, start by setting the bar higher and not being afraid to fail kids. It will take someone made of teflon with a spine, but after a few years it would get better, IMHO.
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Hall of Famer [22942]
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Schools don't have honors programs any more?
Jun 17, 2020, 4:29 PM
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I did not know that was a thing.
My 3rd grader is already in AAP (advanced placement) classes. This herds kids at a much earlier age than when I grew up.
The schools have talked about changing how grades are displayed so not to offend any low performers.
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110%er [7207]
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It makes perfect sense until you think about it.
Jun 17, 2020, 4:05 PM
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Competition is great so just send your kid to the schools that are the best! Oh wait, but how do you get your kid there? Stupid opportunity costs! So now you're telling me that because going to the best schools takes some combination of time and money to find/enroll/physically get your kid there, that really it's just school choice for those with the available resources.
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110%er [8984]
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Re: It makes perfect sense until you think about it.
Jun 17, 2020, 4:22 PM
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there would have to be some effort involved, yes
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110%er [7207]
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Effort
Jun 17, 2020, 4:28 PM
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110%er [8984]
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Re: Effort
Jun 17, 2020, 4:44 PM
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effort
[?ef?rt]
NOUN
a vigorous or determined attempt.
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110%er [7207]
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Re: Effort
Jun 17, 2020, 5:41 PM
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As your fried below pointed out, it's a lot more fun to say that the reason the kids won't do well in school is because they don't come from a "motivated" family. You know, cause people like that are lazy. They could do so much better for their kids, but they just don't want to put in the effort. Read ya lima charlie boss hog.
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110%er [8984]
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Re: Effort
Jun 17, 2020, 5:50 PM
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you are the one standing in the door not me
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110%er [7207]
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Re: Effort
Jun 17, 2020, 5:59 PM
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I'm sitting on my couch waiting for a break in the storm so I can go outside with my dogs. Why would I be standing in a doorway arguing on the internet?
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110%er [6138]
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if folks aren't motivated to take their kids to a good
Jun 17, 2020, 4:53 PM
[ in reply to Effort ] |
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school, then they for sure won't be motivated to help them succeed at a bad school.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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That is so racist.
Jun 17, 2020, 5:53 PM
[ in reply to It makes perfect sense until you think about it. ] |
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You automatically assume that blacks can't find a way to get their kids to school. What the flock is wrong with you...wait, you're the typical democrat who thinks that blacks need you to defend them.
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110%er [7207]
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Where did I once mention race?***
Jun 17, 2020, 5:57 PM
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Lot o points [155905]
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You dog-whistled it.
Jun 17, 2020, 8:37 PM
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Man, that was kinda fun putting words in someone's mouth in a way they have no hope of defending.
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110%er [7207]
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Re: You dog-whistled it.
Jun 18, 2020, 7:56 AM
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And they came a runnin.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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Don't play dumb.
Jun 17, 2020, 8:44 PM
[ in reply to Where did I once mention race?*** ] |
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You know that 65% of black children are raised in one parent homes and you know good and well sending them to better schools will be a problem. I happen to believe enough blacks want the opportunity for better schools for their children that they are smart enough and creative enough to find a way to give their children the education they deserve.
We live in the situation which you described. At this very moment the wealthy are sending their kids to private schools and perpetuating the economic divide. This crap needs to end. These kids deserve education equal to that which rich children get.
? Support for school choice remains strong with almost two-thirds backing choice. When
asked, "Generally speaking, would you say you favor or oppose the concept of school
choice? School choice gives parents the right to use the tax dollars designated for their
child’s education to send their child to the public or private school which best serves their
needs,"1
fully 63% support school choice, including 41% who strongly support it.
Support for School Choice
(Support – Oppose)
January 2018 63% - 33%
January 2017 68% - 28%
January 2016 70% - 24%
January 2015 69% - 27%
On a national level, a broad coalition continues to back school choice. Latinos remain
extremely supportive of school choice with 72% backing the broad concept of school choice
and 26% opposed. A strong majority of whites (61%) and two-thirds of African-Americans
(66%) support school choice.
https://www.federationforchildren.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/1-18-18-AFC-2018-National-School-Choice-Release-Memo.pdf
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110%er [7207]
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Re: Don't play dumb.
Jun 18, 2020, 8:05 AM
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Are you saying I'm not really dumb? Making me blush.
I feel like we're so close to being on the same page. It's not giving people a choice that's the problem, it's pretending that those choices cost the same for everyone. Find me a school choice proposal where there aren't barriers based on the family's socioeconomic background.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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Charter schools.
Jun 18, 2020, 8:32 AM
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Now you tell me why a small minority of Americans 33% of black, 35% of whites and 26% of Latinos are against school choice. While you're at it, how can you tell 66% of black, 65% of whites and 79% of Latinos to suck eggs cause school choice is bad for them.
As I said, you are saying these people can't or won't find a way to get their kids to schools which will educate their children.
So what if the government spends a ton of money, it's our future we're talking about. We're not talking about more nukes, or bigger tanks. This isn't another unprofitable social service or glitter on some turd.
It's an investment in future incomes for those kids who will be future taxpayers who earn more because they have more solid educational foundations. More of them will see the benefits of college and will therefore better themselves and set proper goals for their children, some in perpetuity.
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110%er [6138]
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110%er [8984]
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Re: I don't see this as a dem/pub, conservative/progressive...
Jun 17, 2020, 5:07 PM
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looks like the democants are still standing in the door
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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That is a really dumb post, me.
Jun 17, 2020, 5:56 PM
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I should have known that no matter how much common sense in involved Trump haters would take issue.
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All-In [42151]
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"School choice" has been a bad idea long before Trump.***
Jun 18, 2020, 12:53 AM
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All-In [42151]
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Heh... no.
Jun 18, 2020, 12:51 AM
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I agree that it's not really a liberal vs. conservative thing. But it's something that many conservatives have been duped into believing is a good system.
"School choice" has never been a choice. It's only a "choice" for the wealthy, and usually whites. Aside from the fact that's it's a proven failure in almost every instance it's been implemented (we won't go into all that, but I invite you to examine Louisiana's crash and burn with it), what most people don't realize is that "school choice" and vouchers were created as a response to desegregation.
In short, it was a solution to get public funding back to whites-only and mostly Christian schools. The inventors of it knew they could force segregation back to public schools by making good ones unaffordable to blacks, or, at least, creating admissions standards that could cut out minorities.
So the masterminds behind it, and people like Betsy DeVos, have always had sinister intentions with this idea.
For those who don't get what it really is and have been fooled into thinking it's a better option, their argument is a bit silly. Public schools are struggling and desperate for money, thus hurting quality, so the solution is... take that money away from them and give it to private schools?
Finally, 88, what conservative advocates public taxpayer money going to private institutions?
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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That's a lie from helll.
Jun 18, 2020, 9:30 PM
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Greenville has charter schools which are attended by the poor of all races.
What you described is the exact situation which we have now.
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All-In [42151]
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Ooooh, you cherry pick one area...
Jun 18, 2020, 11:37 PM
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And claim it to be a lie? Please.
The top charter school in Greenville is Brashier Middle College, which ranks an abysmal 47th among all high schools in SC (destroyed by most public high schools in its own county).
And it's demographics? Seventy-seven percent white.
And you know what? Charter schools aren't even the point of what you are originally argued, which is "school choice" and vouchers.
Thanks for playing.
Would you like an extensive amount of links that prove vouchers schools are discriminatory? Or do you concede? Because I have the links ready. Especially the ones that show Florida schools cut out LGBT kids.
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Rock Defender [53]
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If you ignore reality, these charter schools and voucher
Jun 18, 2020, 11:48 PM
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programs sound great! Off to kill my ego and jump on board!
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Heisman Winner [111575]
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Re: I don't see this as a dem/pub, conservative/progressive...
Jun 18, 2020, 11:45 PM
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how about we just fund schools across the state equally and not base funding on the property taxes that district pays? Seems like this would solve a lot of problems with underfunded schools that are failing.
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