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Topic: I keep reading that there aren't enough minority head
Replies: 67   Last Post: Dec 5, 2020, 2:24 AM by: jcaseyii
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I keep reading that there aren't enough minority head

[2]
Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 12:10 PM
 

coaches in college football. For example, it was mentioned in point #3 here:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/college/columnist/dan-wolken/2020/12/02/college-football-coaches-firings-5-burning-questions-moves-start/3797114001/


This argument typically gets reduced to minorities not being given a fair shake when it comes to being seriously considered for head coaching positions, either because of systemic racism or there not being enough highly qualified minority coaches (implying that they are not being trained/groomed/promoted as well as white coaches are). My questions are as follows:

1. If they aren't being hired for jobs, why not? Is it truly due to decision makers being racist? How can we prove that to be true or false, rather than just assuming the worst?
2. If they aren't being trained well at the assistant coach and coordinator level, why not? What training and guidance are they not getting that their white coaching peers are? And what does this training look like?

I don't think race should come into play at all, but since it already has and does, I believe our first question should be this: how have minority coaches done in college football head coaching positions when they get them? If they are doing well, then my thought is that they will continue to be sought after. Based on my perception of things, today's political climate (and thus, the college football climate) seems to be eager to hire minority candidates. I simply don't see many minority head football coaches at the college level set the world on fire. Some are good, but many haven't been good. It can be argued that they have been afforded more patience because they are a minority, and administrators want to see them succeed and also don't want to be thought of as racist.

I obviously know Clemson's environment more than I do other schools, but I believe Clemson fans want the best coach hired for each position, whether it be head coach or assistant coach. I simply don't see a resistance at Clemson to minority candidates. We have had plenty minorities on our football and basketball staffs in recent years.

What are your thoughts?

2021 white level member

Brad Brownell: all-time winningest coach in Clemson men's basketball history, and only coach to beat North Carolina in Chapel Hill.


Re: I keep reading that there aren't enough minority head

emoji_events [6]
Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 12:13 PM
 



2021 purple level memberringofhonor-classof1994.jpg

If pigs are so smart, why do 66% of them use weak and inferior materials during construction?


7 months ago, you gave your word...

[1]
Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 5:30 PM
 

That you would post some nudes of your Aunt Mable on Tigernet. 7 months & not one nude of Mable(smh,###!?!). This puts your character in a bad light, has stained your reputation, & ultimately damages your moral standing within the community. Pray on it, do the right thing & post the nudes of your Aunt Mable-


Re: I keep reading that there aren't enough minority head

emoji_events [7]
Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 12:23 PM
 

I don’t care if a coach is purple as long as they have good character, influence their players for good, and can win games with increasing consistency.

2021 orange level member

Re: I keep reading that there aren't enough minority head

[4]
Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 1:59 PM
 

I agree with you there.

I am aware that entering this discussion will likely send my pulse on the Jimmy the Greek path, but here goes.

Is it not possible this is a non-issue issue? The US demographics show 76% white. The numbers stated in the article are 7/24 minority hires this year which is way better that 24%. Even including last 2 years 11/51 is pretty close to the overall ratios. If the bar being set is to mirror the athlete ratios in coaching, then this is a whole different kettle of fish. In that case, I think a much stronger argument could be made in the reverse. Only 37% of CFB players are white, 49% black. Explain that?

If you care to follow the presumptive argument that because there are many more minority CFB athletes than coaches, in my opinion you should look no further than the graduate assistants. 65% of the graduate assistants are white. If someone can explain why the number of athletes so markedly deviates from the graduate assistants, I think you answer the question of why so few minority head coaches are being hired relative to the number of athletes. In effect, the entry level jobs are being filled by mostly whites and that just flows up to the top.


Re: I keep reading that there aren't enough minority head

[2]
Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 2:49 PM
 

You are giving them way too much credit. Did you see how they applauded the first "all black" referee crew the other day? Thats the only point at which they are happy. If they really cared about "representation" they would wonder why there are so few white players in the NFL and NBA, relative to their population percentages. You'll be making snow angels in Hades before you ever hear one of them wonder why black are over represented in any of those positions. The reality is that they aren't for fairness or equality, thats just their cover.


Re: I keep reading that there aren't enough minority head


Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 7:43 PM
 

You know this is just way too logical for most people to understand.


Re: I keep reading that there aren't enough minority head


Posted: Dec 4, 2020, 3:14 PM
 

I think we need to look at your second and third paragraphs and ask if having been a college football player is a general prerequisite to becoming a college head coach. If the answer is yes then it gets into the third paragraph and why are the demographics of the graduate assistant population what they are. That's probably key to the whole discussion and addressing perceptions in the long term.


I honestly do not give a rat's rear end what color people

[2]
Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 12:27 PM
 

or coaches are. Hire the best one for the job. If the best available is black and he/she does a great job, I'm all for it. It's a business and people's lively hoods depend on decisions made.

2021 purple level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpgringofhonormyfavorange.jpg

Kudos to the article ...

[1]
Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 12:42 PM
 

So I think everyone agrees that we all want the best candidate available, right?

Problems are:
1) Fan bases or big money donors may not want a minority coach,
2) Minority coaches are not being developed as coordinators - coaches (all) should actively pursue coordinator positions if not happening at present job after period of time and they want to be a coordinator,
3) This may be Judge Keller’s opinion and not the article, but why should one minority coach NOT be hired because a previous one failed. They are two individuals and no one applies that premise to hiring white coaches,
4) Lastly, universities AD departments are going to hire whomever they feel comfortable with and many times that is someone who looks like them.

However, the fact that Shane Beamer is the leading candidate for an SEC level job and has never coordinated an offense or defense snd is not presently tied to the school should #### off coaches of all hues.

2021 white level member

Are the problems you list actually problems?


Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 3:04 PM
 

I'm asking because that's the entire point of my post. The same talking points keep being presented as facts, but are they?

For example, you state that fan bases and big money donors might not want a minority coach. What is that based on? Do we have proof of that happening? If so, is it widespread? Assuming that racist white folks who are in positions of power don't want a minority coach is a dangerous assumption to make. It might be true, but it might not.

How do we know that minority coaches aren't being developed as coordinators? Do we have proof that minorities are wanting to be coordinators but aren't being given those opportunities because of the color of their skin? As I asked in my previous post, what are the developmental tools coaches are typically given to be groomed into coordinator positions, and what evidence do we have that white coaches are being given these opportunities instead of minorities?

To clarify, I asked the question about minority coaches and how they've done as head coaches because it might provide answers we need. Since the issue is already out there, and having more minority head coaches is clearly important to some people, isn't it logical to ask how they are doing in those roles? Is their performance as head coaches equal, better, or worse than white head coaches? If there is a difference, does it point to how minority coaches are trained as they work their way up as assistants? Does it have something to do with the resources they have (or don't have) at their disposal as coordinators or head coaches?

2021 white level member

Brad Brownell: all-time winningest coach in Clemson men's basketball history, and only coach to beat North Carolina in Chapel Hill.


Re: Kudos to the article ...


Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 6:29 PM
 

I can think of another coach who was never an offensive or defensive coordinator.

2021 white level member

If you were to compile a list, who would you include?

[1]
Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 12:34 PM
 

My list would probably include guys like Dino Babers, Kevin Sumlin, James Franklin, Derek Mason, Lovie Smith, David Shaw, Willie Taggart, Jim Caldwell, Sylvester Croom, Tyrone Willingham, and Herm Edwards. Maybe Mel Tucker, Jimmy Lake and Mike Locksley too.

Their win/loss records, and arguably their corresponding success as head coaches, would be fairly easy to evaluate.

2021 orange level memberbadge-donor-20yr.jpg

Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together.


Okay, that seems like a good starting point.


Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 3:19 PM
 

Here you go:

Dino Babers is 61-51 as a head coach, including 19-7 at Eastern Illinois, 18-9 at Bowling Green, and 24-35 at Syracuse.

Kevin Sumlin is 95-61 as a head coach, including 35-17 at Houston, 51-26 at Texas A&M, and 9-18 at Arizona.

James Franklin is 81-43 as a head coach, including 24-15 at Vanderbilt and 57-28 at Penn State.

Derek Mason is 27-55 as a head coach, all at Vanderbilt.

Lovie Smith is 17-37 as a head coach, all at Illinois.

David Shaw is 87-36 as a head coach, all at Stanford.

Willie Taggart is 61-63 as a head coach, including 16-20 at Western Kentucky, 24-25 at South Florida, 7-5 at Oregon, 9-12 at Florida State, and 5-1 at Florida Atlantic.

Jim Caldwell is 26-63 as a head coach, all at Wake Forest.

Sylvester Croom is 21-38 as a head coach, all at Mississippi State.

Tyrone Willingham is 76-88-1 as a head coach, including 44-36-1 at Stanford, 21-15 at Notre Dame, and 11-37 at Washington.

Herm Edwards is 15-12 as a head coach, all at Arizona State.

Mel Tucker is 7-10 as a head coach, including 5-7 at Colorado and 2-3 at Michigan State.

Jimmy Lake is 3-0 as a head coach, all at Washington.

Mike Locksley is 8-42 as a head coach, including 2-26 at New Mexico and 6-16 at Maryland.

Total win-loss record of these is 585-599-1.

2021 white level member

Brad Brownell: all-time winningest coach in Clemson men's basketball history, and only coach to beat North Carolina in Chapel Hill.


I'd probably also add Charlie Strong and maybe even...


Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 3:36 PM
 

Eddie Robinson although he spent pretty much his entire career at Grambling which is a 1-AA or FCS program.

That raises an interesting question.

How many minority coaches have achieved a pretty high level of success as head coaches in the lower Divisions.

2021 orange level memberbadge-donor-20yr.jpg

Sometimes good things fall apart so better things can fall together.


Mike Locksley...***


Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 3:42 PM
 



2021 white level member

Re: Okay, that seems like a good starting point.


Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 3:52 PM
 

Yikes! Not much success there! Only 3 guys seem to have done well.

Shaw started hot but seems to be cooling off.

Successful coaches tend to be stable. The Sabans & Meyers are rare. Holtz was really only successful at ND and leftt most programs in shambles and in trouble with the NCAA. Spurrier was only successful at Florida and left Coot-U in shambles.

Spurrier had those 11-1 teams but never built a program. He got a bit lucky. The SEC east was terrible and Clowney & Lattimore grew up chicken fans. Clemson choked a few away and he ran Lattimore into the ground. He strung together a few good seasons then scurried away as the program collapsed.

Guys that program jump after a few hot years tend to do so for a reason and if you notice those guys tend to have poor character and rub dirty programs.

2021 orange level member

Would have left ND in shambles...


Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 6:37 PM
 

but it seems they were above reproach-(Under the Tarnished Dome)


Very true. ND like UNC and a few other programs


Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 6:52 PM
 

Have been proven to get a free pass when doing some of the worst and dirtiest things in NCAA history. Things that would’ve gotten other programs the death penalty. I mean, UNC, that wasn’t just the athletic department. The entire university was involved in widespread academic fraud! and they got a total pass! Blows my mind! But it proves that the elite will always Protect their own!

2021 orange level member

Spurrier won an ACC Title in his 3rd...


Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 7:06 PM
 

& final year at Duke which landed him the Florida job; before his arrival, the Gators had never had a 10 win season-


Re: Spurrier won an ACC Title in his 3rd...


Posted: Dec 4, 2020, 3:26 PM
 

A lot of luck went into that ACC title and he probably wouldn’t have had long term success at Duke. That was always a stepping stone for him. He also got a lot of help and good fortune/timing at USC which is why ultimately he was a failure at USC and he quit and left town mid season with the program in shambles.

2021 orange level member

Re: Okay, that seems like a good starting point.


Posted: Dec 4, 2020, 4:09 PM
 

One needs to dig deeper. The success a coach has at a University should depend on the university. For example, a 6-5 record may be considered good at Columbia but not so good at Tallahassee. In other words, compare the record of the coaches with the coaches that were there before them. It may be even more complex; everyone has seen the arguments of the relative coaching skills of Purnell versus Brownell. Statics alone may not tell the whole story. Good subject for a Ph.D.


Re: Okay, that seems like a good starting point.


Posted: Dec 4, 2020, 4:27 PM
 

Not only that but most people don’t realize that most programs are mediocre. Many programs are simply bad. There are really only a handful of good programs at any one time. Georgia only has one national championship. Notre Dame hasn’t done anything since they won the national championship back when Lou Holtz was there. Michigan hasn’t done anything in decades. Texas had a few good years under Mac Brown but otherwise hadn’t done anything in decades. Miami hasn’t done anything since the 90s. So even when you look at programs that people think are blueblood programs most of their success is sporadic and not consistent over time. Only when those schools have a great coach are they on top. They have plenty of mediocre and even bad seasons for extended periods of time with coaching turnover because it’s not the name of the school That makes the success. It’s a great coach. And there are only a handful of great coaches at any one time. But we get so used to hearing the name Texas and Notre Dame and Michigan that we think they are better than they are and most of the success the schools had was decades ago. This is really an excellent study in psychology and marketing!

2021 orange level member

Re: Okay, that seems like a good starting point.

[1]
Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 4:00 PM
 

I'd hire herm Edwards and David Shaw in a heartbeat. Might even throw Dino in there. Good coaches with great character.

We as a nation are getting it wrong thinking all we have to do is meet a percentage. We've tried that for years and it's gotten us nowhere.

If ppl really wanted to learn how it should be looked at, look no further than to deconstruct President Trump's theory. It can be a top to bottom approach, it's got to be the reverse, bottom up. David Shaw probably eptomizes that principle. So does DW4. They wanted a certain path and sought after the best route to help them achieve that path. Then they wanted it bad enough and put in the work to get there.


Re: Okay, that seems like a good starting point.

[1]
Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 4:07 PM
 

Should have been can't be top to bottom, it's got to be bottom up. Actually Trump's son said something to the effect, you've got to want it first... And got crushed in the media for saying it, but unfortunately it's the truth. Numbers bear that out too. More African-American males voted for that strategy this year than ever before. It's not monolithic and sadly African-American ppl are starting to learn that, so when is the media going to learn it.


lol wow

[1]
Posted: Dec 4, 2020, 3:37 PM
 

Where are you getting this nonsense?

WE as a country are not saying or doing anything.

How old are you?

The right, conservatives, have known and been saying all along quotas don’t work. That in life merit is all that matters. Not skin color or other such factors. The people pushing and doing what you described are called liberals, Democrats, etc. and despite them being woefully wrong for decades the far left is now doubling down and pushing even dumber theories like disparate impact & critical race theory.

2021 orange level member

I do not think that anyone, should be hired or not hired,

emoji_events [8]
Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 12:41 PM
 

for any position in any job, anywhere, based on their race. To do so is just another form of discrimination.

2021 orange level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg

I agree.

[1]
Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 3:21 PM
 

I wonder if those who are calling for more minority head coaches want this because they feel that minority coaches would do as good or better than white coaches, and thus improve the quality of college football? Or do they simply feel that minority coaches aren't given a fair shot? Or do they just care about quotas because that gives them a sense of equality?

2021 white level member

Brad Brownell: all-time winningest coach in Clemson men's basketball history, and only coach to beat North Carolina in Chapel Hill.


The US Government would disagree with you***


Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 3:43 PM
 



2021 student level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpg

There's something in these hills.


How so?


Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 6:56 PM
 

There are laws against discrimination, but I was pretty sure most of the reverse discrimination laws, such as quotas had been eliminated from the federal register.

2021 orange level member

Re: I keep reading that there aren't enough minority head

[1]
Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 12:44 PM
 

Judge, not sure why you linked to a football story... but ok.

I want to say about 1-2 years ago that looked at where basketball coaches *started* their career. Not as GAs ect, but while in college. A disproportionate were non-scholarship, non-playing white guys. They were on the team but really never contributed in the boxscrore, but also often came from some interesting, premier programs/coaching traditions - but that is where the often began. Heck, look at Dabo. However, many of these players could play/start at lesser programs, if not be on scholarship.

In any case, there appears to be, often a lack of minority players in these positions. That an emphasis on playing or having the scholarship and thus these positions are valued less for minorities at this point in time where as the non-scholarship white kids are often starting much longer-lasting paths.

Now, it isn't all race-specific. My brother was one of those D1 talents that an injury messed up scholarship options. Even then, his options were to earn a playing-time spot. A power D3 school (with a D3 legend coach) offered playing time immediately and he head the school in points/scoring for the first three years. Now, as a coach, he kinda wished he did D1 route as it would have opened doors faster since coaching was always his goal.


I linked to a football story because point #3 in the story


Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 3:24 PM
 

discussed minority head coaches in college football, and stated that we need more of them. It was just one example, there are obviously others.

Thanks for sharing the data from college basketball. Very interesting. I wonder if it is similar for college football?

2021 white level member

Brad Brownell: all-time winningest coach in Clemson men's basketball history, and only coach to beat North Carolina in Chapel Hill.


Re: I linked to a football story because point #3 in the story


Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 4:40 PM
 

Yeah, just teasing with basketball

I don't see any reason why there would not be parallels. You still walk-ons as the fertile ground for coaches.

Dabo: Walk-on
Elliot: Walk-on
Venables: Offered Walkon at Kansas State, went CC then and then walked on I think at Kansas State and eventually earned a scholarship spot, but so did Dabo and Tony


We are really looking at two different things here.

[1]
Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 1:43 PM
 

In the NFL it’s about working your way up. Which means you have to prove yourself and have success. But at the same time, the NFL loves to recycle head coaches, regardless of success. For whatever reason they think you need someone that has already been a head coach. But that has changed recently and now they love going after the young innovative offensive mind from a successful college program.

At the college level it’s going to be tough for minorities esp at power five schools. Being a head coach is about more than X’s& 0’s. With the exception of someone like Nick Saban or urban Meyer success as a head coach at most major programs is about having the right fit, knowing the culture, which is why many programs look to hire someone that played or coach that program in the past. At the college level it’s also about what region of the country you’re in. Recruiting is so important. That’s why you typically see guys that coach on the West Coast pretty much only coach on the West Coast and guys they coach in the South pretty much only coach in the south. The exceptions being Nick Saban, urban Meyer, or a guy like Harbaugh. He’s a household name and had success in the NFL, but he also played at Michigan.

At the college level you have to be a good fit for the school, it helps to have connections to the school, you need to understand that region because of recruiting, which also means you need to be tied into the culture, and let’s be honest a lot of it is fundraising. Most major college programs are more rural Oriented, more small town oriented, And overwhelmingly white, be it the student body, admin, board, alumni, etc. Which is why someone that went to school there or coached there has a huge advantage

Coaching is coaching at the pro level.

College basketball is purely about having a few great players and basketball is an urban and northern sport thus successful black head coaches.

But college football is a completely different animal and running a major college football program is like running a major corporation and you have to be a great fit and understand the culture. Dabo Swinney is the perfect example of this! But it’s also why I could see in our future Christian Wilkins being the head coach at Clemson! And it would not surprise me if Dabo Swinney isnt already thinking that and can’t wait until Christian is done in the NFL and bring him back to Clemson. And he would be awesome! But it’s because of the culture and he’s a perfect fit! But that is super rare!

The problem at most college programs is the fact that these guys make so much money in the modern NFL that few want the headache of being a coach after they retire because they’re already rich! If you are rich but want to get in coaching you either have to go to a small school to be a head coach first and show success, Deion sanders, or go back to your alma mater and start as a position coach and work your way up. Not many rich guys want to do that!


Message was edited by: Lowcntry_Tiger®


2021 orange level member

So who gets to decide how many is enough, and what is the #?

[1]
Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 1:54 PM
 

I don't think it should be a factor, period, just like it shouldn't be a factor when it comes to deciding who takes the snaps. Anyone over about 40 can remember a day when essentially all QBs were Caucasian. Take a look now. I think I read that as recently as 25 years ago, there were no black head coaches, and now there are about 10%. Why can't that be considered progress? Take a look at the Heisman...what has been the racial makeup of that award over the last 2-3 decades.

To me, race is irrelevant when it comes to deciding who is going to coach your team, who is going to lead your team on the field, and who is the most valuable player in the land.

2021 white level memberbadge-donor-05yr.jpg

Re: I keep reading that there aren't enough minority head


Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 2:35 PM
 

Are we being set-up for a black female soccer player/place kicker in a game this weekend?


Re: I keep reading that there aren't enough minority head

[2]
Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 2:46 PM
 

Its hilarious that the SJW's think NFL owners, who have no problem paying a Patrick Mahomes a half a BILLION dollars to be their QB, suddenly get super racist and won't pay some high performing black assistant coach 5 million dollars a year to be their head coach. If you've heard the old saying that "when you're a a hammer, everything looks like a nail" then I think you'll understand how out of touch with reality most of them are. No idea why normal people give them the time of day, much less cower in fear at upsetting them. They certainly have no problem calling anyone they disagree with every name in the book.


1st- a very elementary understanding of the issue, secondly- why

[1]
Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 2:46 PM
 

Did you make this point? What is the purpose of bringing light to this?
1. Black coach search shouldn’t be special
2. Black coaches have just as much privilege and opportunities as white assistants coming up.
3. There is no more institutional racism- so it’s all fair everywhere
4. Black coaches should stop seeking special treatment and should work hard and be awarded according to our American meritocracy
5. Black coaches overall have just not been as good as white coaches- they have proven to be inferior head coaches so far?
Which and what are you trying to bring light to? Just asking cause it is such a simplified understanding of a huge and deep problem in more than coaching. Maybe race and the history of racism in labor is your expertise or where you currently work or lead. So I apologize ahead of time for insulting you. Or maybe you are a football fan entering a world and issue and topic that you are just playing around with.

2021 orange level member

Re: 1st- a very elementary understanding of the issue, secondly- why

[1]
Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 3:13 PM
 

I agree with HBROWN in that at some point, black coaches have got to start winning.

We've seen black guys get the jobs at FSU, Notre Dame, Texas, Miami, Oregon, Penn State, Oklahoma, etc and all have been failures. In my opinion , it is time to start looking more toward the Trans Korean community for H.C.'s


Please enlighten me on my elementary understanding


Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 4:15 PM
 

of this issue.

Every year around this time, when the coaching carousel begins and some coaches are fired and schools are looking to make hires, the discussion of minority candidates comes up. Me bringing light to this on TigerNet is based solely on the fact that it was mentioned in an article I read this morning.

That article caused me to ask some questions, which have been listed elsewhere. Maybe we don't know the answer to some or all of those questions, but I believe we should all seek to understand things better.

Maybe you can help me.

1. Do you believe we currently have enough minority college head football coaches? If not, why not?
2. In your opinion, what percentage of college football head coaches should be black?
3. Assuming two equal coaching candidates, one white and one black, do you think the black candidate's race should be the tie-breaker?
4. What disadvantages and hurdles do you believe black assistant coaches currently have to contend with, compared to white assistant coaches?

Thank you in advance.

2021 white level member

Brad Brownell: all-time winningest coach in Clemson men's basketball history, and only coach to beat North Carolina in Chapel Hill.


Well. It will be hard to go any deeper unless


Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 7:01 PM
 

you believe there is institutional racism against black people in the very fabric of our society and extends to sports. This is why detangling the race thing is not an elementary surface discussion. We must be willing to ask how is the history of institutionalized, systematic racial structures stacked not only against a black man becoming a head coach but also being successful there. There are and could be serious underlying issues with his hiring. So I do feel like it will be harder for a black man to build and be retained to build a winning program than his white counterpart. The social construct of race is difficult to deal with and shake from consideration. But we want to simplify it so we don’t have to feel guilty or admit that the playing field is not equal. I don’t want to start a big argument here. I just want to explain why it is not simple unless you want to deny the damage and issues and reality of active and passive systematic and institutional racism. I know I will get asked to provide proof cause it is not there. It is just a ghostly excuse for laziness and lack of success and failure to launch and wanting someone to give black people an advantage for free instead of earning it. I know this is coming. But that is my explanation.

2021 orange level member

Re: Well. It will be hard to go any deeper unless

[1]
Posted: Dec 4, 2020, 4:20 PM
 

Institutional racism does not exist. The term was created by a radical racist black academic.

America was not founded on slavery nor racism. In fact racism has nothing to do with slavery!

Asians are more successful than white peoples.

Immigrants of all colors come to America and succeed. Black people coming to America do exceptionally well.

Nearly 100% of the problems facing the “black community” are cultural and only the black community can solve those issues!

The So-called leaders of the black community, people like Jesse Jackson, Louis Farrakhan, Al Sharpton, are all nothing but racists that do everything they can to perpetuate racism and cause division because it benefits them financially and politically! When the black community gets rid of people like that as their leaders things will start getting better.

The black community also needs to break away from the Democratic Party. Democrats use identity politics to divide this country and they are not about to let black people and women and homosexuals leave the plantation! Look at the way the Democrats and the mainstream media attack successful conservative black people and successful conservative women and successful conservative homosexuals. If they cared about those people they would be cheering them on they would be talking about their success they would be trying to find out what they did to be successful and use it as a model for other people. But they don’t because they don’t want minorities to be successful.

Democrats used to not be all in on illegal immigration. They’re only doing that now because they have lost the union vote. Blue-collar middle class white Americans have abandoned the Democratic Party because of identity politics and radical far left policies. The Democrats have to make up those votes so now they’re going all in on illegal immigration and doubling down on the identity politics around the black community and women.

Stop drinking the Kool-Aid and open your eyes and look at the reality that’s around you. It’s obvious to see if you simply open your eyes.

Go read or listen to Thomas Sowell. That man is an American treasure!

Per. Don Lemon
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2013/07/27/cnns_don_lemon_bill_oreillys_criticism_of_black_community_doesnt_go_far_enough.html

Clemson professor C. Bradley Thompson
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=_-VPeg2VbT8

Go educate yourself and stop drinking the Kool-Aid and listening to the popular narratives coming from people that benefit from division & racism! Virtually everything we’ve been taught in history books is incorrect. Especially surrounding Abraham Lincoln and the Civil War. And especially regarding racism in America!

Do yourself a favor and watch those two videos!

2021 orange level member

Re: 1st- a very elementary understanding of the issue, secondly- why

[2]
Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 4:22 PM
 

Actually most coaches and most programs are pretty mediocre and many simply suck. The reality is, coaching is like everything in life, the 80/20 rule (90/10 If we’re being honest) is very real and why at least 10% of cops suck just like 10% of every profession including brain surgeons or pilots or Catholic priests!

People want to push racist narratives for political purposes but statistics don’t lie.

For example there are only 500 Fortune 500 companies and a lot of them are family controlled or in stem or multinational. The odds of even the average white American male becoming a CEO is astronomical. And even then it takes decades to get there. Therefore in many ways blacks and women are over represented when you break down the stats.

If America is only 12% black and over half are women and only a tiny portion of the men get a college degree and play football and go into coaching and work their way up you’re talking about a tiny talent pool to draw from and very few coaches of any color are successful.

Again, 90/10 rule and disparity does not mean racism or sexism. Major college football coaches are like corporate CEOs and culture & fit are also huge factors!

Would anyone expect a white coach to be successful today at a HBCU?

Even the average SEC program is mediocre. UGa has 1 championship.

Success in anything is rare and fleeting! Too bad people don’t understand and recognize true success much less celebrate and enjoy it!

2021 orange level member

Re: I keep reading that there aren't enough minority head

[2]
Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 2:59 PM
 

Key points

1) Wolken is an idiot with an agenda. Clearly he hates college football, Christians and Dabo
2) We clearly do not have enough Hispanic players or coaches
3) We clearly do not have enough Asian players or coaches
4) Caucasian people are clearly underrepresented at RB, WR and CB positions


We must address all of the above as soon as possible.


this really has nothing do with a rational thought process


Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 3:07 PM
 

I wouldn't spend too much time on it. Its about power.


Re: this really has nothing do with a rational thought process


Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 4:26 PM
 

But the media and some people obsess over it! And that’s the problem! They have the power and they drive the narrative.

2021 orange level member

There is NO WAY an AD is going skip over the most qualified

[1]
Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 3:59 PM
 

candidate that is available, just because the candidate is black. There's too much money (and the AD's job) at stake.

Same goes for the Pro level...

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Re: There is NO WAY an AD is going skip over the most qualified


Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 4:31 PM
 

You’re dreaming !!

PC hires do happen. Taggart @ FSU is one. That guy had no business getting that job esp when it was a rebuild project and he had no record of sustained success.

The new B1G commissioner is another!

2021 orange level member

Re: There is NO WAY an AD is going skip over the most qualified


Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 7:42 PM
 

Taggart had eight years head coaching experience and moved to the Power 5 after winning an AAC championship and giving South Florida their first top 25 finish ever. Norvell had four years head coaching experience and also moved up after an AAC conference win. How exactly does that make Taggart less qualified?

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Well, let’s see.


Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 10:39 PM
 

Taggart was 47-50 as a head coach when he was hired by FSU. He had one division championship and no conference championships, and had one bowl appearance.

Norvell was 38-15, with three division championships, one conference championship, and went to a bowl every year.

It’s pretty obvious that Taggart was less qualified.

2021 white level member

Brad Brownell: all-time winningest coach in Clemson men's basketball history, and only coach to beat North Carolina in Chapel Hill.


Re: Well, let’s see.


Posted: Dec 4, 2020, 12:42 PM
 

yes, because you clearly believe that W-L is the only measure of a coach. Get out of here with this race baiting trash. This thread is low by even your standards.

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Re: Well, let’s see.


Posted: Dec 4, 2020, 12:50 PM
 

Not that you actually care, Norvell took over a 9-4 Memphis. Taggart took over a 3-9 South Florida and an 0-12 Western Kentucky. The person I was replying to asserted that Taggart was a PC hire and was not qualified for the rebuilding at FSU. Norvell has never had to rebuild anything. He is grossly less experienced than Taggart was. But after all this time of our heated debates I'm finally moving you to the ignore list. Because this obvious race trolling is unacceptable. There is not an ounce of sincerity in your original post.

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Re: Well, let’s see.


Posted: Dec 4, 2020, 4:48 PM
 

Willie Taggart is 61-63 as a head coach, including 16-20 at Western Kentucky, 24-25 at South Florida, 7-5 at Oregon, 9-12 at Florida State, and 5-1 at Florida Atlantic.

South Florida is the only program where you can say he was really successful but they don’t play anybody and he got hired away before he showed whether he could maintain that. But I did overlook South Florida and what he did there but I still think he was hired more because he was black than anything else. I would bet $1 million on it! Because a few successful years at South Florida with all the talent in Florida does not mean you are qualified to rebuild Florida State. And there was nothing else in his history at the time to support any other thinking.

And as we found out with Tommy Bowden, success does not mean that success was because of the head coach. Halfway through Tommy Bowden‘s third season at Clemson it was obvious that Rich Rodriguez was Largely responsible for TB’s success at Tulane and why we improved his first two years at Clemson, but then immediately became schizophrenic as #### the minute Rich Rodriguez left Clemson!

I noticed you conveniently ignored touching the B1G comment! Everyone knows that was a PC higher! Major corporations, colleges and universities, and everything in between has made plenty of PC hires especially over the last 5 to 10 years. If you don’t believe that you’re living in a fantasy world!

2021 orange level member

Re: Well, let’s see.


Posted: Dec 4, 2020, 5:02 PM
 

After a year of being told that we are closet racists if we don't agree with all the race-based agendas being foisted on us, you want to take us back to "if you have to ask, I'm not going to explain it to you"?

Wow. Gotta love a good healthy air-clearing discussion. Glad we're moving toward understanding each other. Or not.

I thought you made a good point. Too bad you don't have the patience to build on it, but Viztiz isn't known for positive discussions anyway. Nothing new here.

The original premise remains.


Re: There is NO WAY an AD is going skip over the most qualified


Posted: Dec 5, 2020, 2:21 AM
 

Kevin Warren was a terrible hire. He deserves to be fired.


Re: There is NO WAY an AD is going skip over the most qualified


Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 9:14 PM
 

I disagree with you here. Taggart turned his prior two programs around before heading to Oregon. The one year there wasn’t bad at all either. His dream job was FSU which he obviously had to take. I personally don’t think he got a fair shake; as we are seeing now. Now, maybe he didn’t understand the the magnitude of the issues there; but that’s on him. However, Norvell is pretty much coaching year three of Taggart and they’re still going down. I’ve been wrong once (wife says more) but given more time, I still maybe hard headily believe Taggart could have ridded the Jimbo era thuggery! Sorry to digress.


I don’t think Taggart was as qualified as a program like FSU should expect.


Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 10:43 PM
 

However, I do think he should’ve been given more time at FSU. He inherited a very bad situation and deserved a real chance to turn things around.

I expect him to do well at FAU.

2021 white level member

Brad Brownell: all-time winningest coach in Clemson men's basketball history, and only coach to beat North Carolina in Chapel Hill.


We have a lack of female head coaches too

[1]
Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 4:27 PM
 

The coots may be the first to try!

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How have they done with recruiting?


Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 7:21 PM
 

Since a large number of players are black minority coaches should knock it out of the park. Advantage right? I’m asking because I sincerely have no idea


What does or should they tell you?


Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 8:03 PM
 

Something in the system is wrong. It makes sense that it should be an advantage.

2021 orange level member

Re: What does or should they tell you?


Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 8:06 PM
 

It tells me minority players should be eager to sign with black coaches. Are they? How do black coaches recruit? Do they compete well? I honestly don’t know the stats.


Re: What does or should they tell you?


Posted: Dec 4, 2020, 12:55 PM
 

Top players want to go where they have the best chance of moving into the pros. The overwhelming majority of those jobs are held by white coaches. Players aren't choosing to gamble their future on race loyalty. It could be argued (not by me - just saying it could be) that the inverse isn't true.

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How about Female head coaches?


Posted: Dec 3, 2020, 10:44 PM
 

I know a Vance built kicker that should be considered. I heard she “can do anything”...


Re: How about Female head coaches?


Posted: Dec 5, 2020, 2:24 AM
 

She was the SECplayer of the week. She had such a great kickoff all the way to the 35 yard line.


Re: I keep reading that there aren't enough minority head


Posted: Dec 4, 2020, 10:59 AM
 

The reality is FAR more college football players and NFL players for that matter are Black than white. Meaning that coaches should be closer to representative seeing how the people with the most football experience tend to be Black. The reason they aren’t is because Big donors (Usually white people) not out of malice but psychologically tend to feel more trusting and confidence in someone who they feel more related to no just in looks but in culture. Which leads to more white coaches getting chances and often put on longer leashes to find success. Willie taggerts performance was bad but he almost inarguably got fired too soon.


Re: I keep reading that there aren't enough minority head


Posted: Dec 4, 2020, 1:05 PM
 

brrntaylor said:

The reality is FAR more college football players and NFL players for that matter are Black than white. Meaning that coaches should be closer to representative seeing how the people with the most football experience tend to be Black. The reason they aren’t is because Big donors (Usually white people) not out of malice but psychologically tend to feel more trusting and confidence in someone who they feel more related to no just in looks but in culture. Which leads to more white coaches getting chances and often put on longer leashes to find success. Willie taggerts performance was bad but he almost inarguably got fired too soon.




Fired to soon? The program had no chance under him, he had no control over his players and they didn't respect him. He may one day be a good HC but he isn't yet, and many were surprised he got another opportunity as soon as he did. They are many people who aren't considered "white" that are qualified to be HC anywhere. A person should be judged on his ability to do the job competently not on the color of his skin or the box he chooses on an application. I am inevitably considered "white" or caucasian by everyone based on the fact I am a little lighter skinned than some of my relatives, but I am Irish/CHEROKEE. I could claim my heritage and use it to my advantage especially for my kids educations and such.


Re: I keep reading that there aren't enough minority head


Posted: Dec 4, 2020, 12:54 PM
 

I want one of the jobs! My Great-Grandmother was 100% Cherokee, so I am a minority coach looking for a payday! I want a contract, 5 years, $15 million, and you can fire me after 2 without a buyout!!!


Re: I keep reading that there aren't enough minority head


Posted: Dec 4, 2020, 2:58 PM
 

Well, here at Clemson I can speak if one that is being well groomed and his next stop is a P5 HC position. Coach Elliott says hello!

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