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All-TigerNet [14921]
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I'm curious for the (non-Coot, if there are any) "Tajh
Dec 5, 2013, 9:50 AM
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chokes in big games" contingent. What is your definition of a "big game"?
FSU? Beat FSU in '11.
Top 5 team on Nat'l TV on Gameday? Beat UGAy.
Top 10 team on the road in a hostile night environment? Beat VT in '11.
Bowl game vs. a big, bad SEC Title Contender with 8 future NFL draft picks? Beat LSU in '12.
Game with "title implications"? Dominated a top 5 VT team (again) for an ACC title.
Tajh never beat the Coots. That's a fact. Does that make him a "big game choker" or diminish all his other accomplishments? No. Not unless you're an idiot.
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Addict [448]
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I'm an idiot...***
Dec 5, 2013, 9:55 AM
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Hall of Famer [22965]
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I notice no one is disputing your statement.***
Dec 5, 2013, 9:59 AM
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Orange Blooded [2404]
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And a coot but then they're synonomous.***
Dec 5, 2013, 10:51 AM
[ in reply to I'm an idiot...*** ] |
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Orange Blooded [2663]
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tajh is a great spokesman for the brand, but I think
Dec 5, 2013, 9:59 AM
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part of the frustration is that he is a 5th year senior who tends to make mistakes that someone with that level of game experience just shouldn't make.
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110%er [9059]
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Choked/panicked in FSU game this season and .......
Dec 5, 2013, 10:02 AM
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lost his focus/confidence against South Carolina.
Nobody's saying he can't ever win a big game - you make some good points about the games he has won. But he hasn't shown himself to be a top-level QB who can definitely be counted on to maintain his composure in truly-big games.
I'm now going by what I'm reading from the NFL scouts as far as how they see his future with them - they aren't seeing him as a "go-to" franchise type of QB.
If you're objective, you'll have to admit he didn't play well against FSU and South Carolina, our two biggest "showdown" games this season.
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All-TigerNet [14921]
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Obviously he didn't play well against those teams
Dec 5, 2013, 10:07 AM
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but NO ONE on our team did.
I don't see how anyone can watch that last drive against LSU and say he can't be counted on to maintain his composure.
He got jittery at the end of the game vs the Coots this year and threw two picks but who wouldn't when you're facing a dwindling 2-minute clock, and a two-TD deficit.
I think people are too quick to write off the UGAy game as just as big a "showdown" game as FSU/USuCk. Obviously they had a shocking rash of injuries but make no mistake, that team, healthy, could absolutely win the MNC. Tajh played great against them.
You can't point out his struggles as the rule and ignore his poise in many other games throughout his career.
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110%er [9059]
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I'm not denying how he played against LSU - am.....
Dec 5, 2013, 10:15 AM
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objectively talking about his key fumble against South Carolina, intentional grounding call a 4th year Senior should never have, and his "happy feet" - am also talking about his obvious loss of confidence against FSU. I'm talking about obvious things, not an opinion.
I like Tajh and what he has done for us but also see where he failed to perform at key times.
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All-TigerNet [14921]
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So then my point is, why do those outweigh the
Dec 5, 2013, 10:17 AM
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times he has performed at key times?
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CU Medallion [55408]
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Re: I'm not denying how he played against LSU - am.....
Dec 5, 2013, 10:37 AM
[ in reply to I'm not denying how he played against LSU - am..... ] |
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I saw in the FSU game, a like of confidence in his O line keeping him protected with enough time to make a play. And he tried to do it on his own. FSU was to fast for one man to beat them. But that was the only option Tajh had. FSU front 4 crushed our O line at will. Jameis wouldn't be the QB that he is with our O line. And FSU wouldn't be 12/0 with our O line. Even Johnny FB couldn't go 12/0 with our O line.
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CU Guru [1838]
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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I agree with some of what you say but I have one contention.
Dec 5, 2013, 1:06 PM
[ in reply to Choked/panicked in FSU game this season and ....... ] |
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Tajh has a problem. It has nothing to do with big or small games. Sometimes for some reason, I suspect it's pressure, he decides he doesn't have time to go through the progressions and chooses who he going to throw the ball to before the snap.
That is a mental discipline thing which is uncharacteristic of a player with his work ethic. Tajh's problem is just as likely to manifest when playing WF as it is playing FSU. Look at our losses since he's been the starter.
Tajh can and will grow out of this. I don't think the scouts will know it but I'm sure he'll make a good pro QB someday. I expect a fourth or fifth round place for Tajh.
I'll say it this way, he's a good guy. He does everything in his life the right way from all appearances and I'm thankful he chose Clemson for he's probably the best QB we've had.
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Orange Blooded [2198]
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Re: I'm curious for the (non-Coot, if there are any) "Tajh
Dec 5, 2013, 10:10 AM
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FSU was decent in '11 and they had a backup starting. He still had that ### moment on the int/fumble return for TD.
VT was bad on O when we played them. We had to only score 4 pts or 11 the other time to win that game.
LSU more lost than we won but I'll proudly wear the peach bowl champs gear.
Just playing devils advocate.
Tajh has been a great QB but not Elite.
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All-TigerNet [14921]
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Then playing devil's advocate in return, who would you
Dec 5, 2013, 10:14 AM
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consider an elite QB? Name one who has the wins AND the numbers that Tajh does.
McAaron has the wins but I don't think anyone could tell you with a straight face he's a better QB than Boyd.
Manziel? Where are his quality wins outside of Bama in '12? He's 0-for against LSU
Truth is, very few players in history would be considered "elite" by that standard.
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Heisman Winner [105574]
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So you're discounting FSU and VT because
Dec 5, 2013, 10:24 AM
[ in reply to Re: I'm curious for the (non-Coot, if there are any) "Tajh ] |
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of their offenses? That shouldn't reflect on Tajh, they still had stout defenses.
I fail to see how TB choked against USuCk. Defense let him down. Special teams let him down. Chad took the ball out of his hands to let a receiver throw an INT on the opening drive when TB hadn't missed a pass.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Tajh plays poorly in big games too often to be an elite QB.
Dec 5, 2013, 10:19 AM
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I don't think anyone here thinks he chokes in every big game. He just chokes really really hard in about half of them.
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All-TigerNet [14921]
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Then who would you consider an elite QB who doesn't
Dec 5, 2013, 10:22 AM
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choke in big games?
The fact is, you will not find a player in the world who doesn't go about 50-50 in "big games." That's human nature.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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I disagree with your last statement.
Dec 5, 2013, 10:29 AM
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There is a gap between losing the game and "choking." Tajh actually becomes our biggest liability on the whole offence in half of our big games. That would fall under the category of choking. Everyone throws interception, everyone has off days, and most QB's do worse against good competition. So my criticism of Tajh is very specific. He plays absolutely terribly in several important games.
Even just in comparing the coot QB's against us over the last 5 years. All of them played much better than any of Tajh's games against them. Jamies Winston rose to the occasion. Johnny Manziel has never had a collapse quite like what Tajh at his worst. Again, it's not about losing, it's about playing absolutely terribly multiple times a year.
And don't forget I'm saying Tajh isn't an ELITE QB. I think he's a very good QB. But his failures are so bad that he can't be elite in my mind.
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All-TigerNet [14921]
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Regarding the Coot QBs--we haven't (until this year)
Dec 5, 2013, 10:40 AM
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had a defense as good as their last 3 so I don't think that's comparable. Shaw played well scrambling on 3rd down this year but he outside of that I don't think he did anything special.
Manziel had an absolute meltdown vs. LSU this year in a must-win big game.
Winston is the only one who's shown he can handle the pressure up to the standard you're defining. Outside of that, I don't see anyone in the last few years who does.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Manziel has one meltdown in his whole career. Tajh has
Dec 5, 2013, 10:45 AM
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at least 2 a year. Manziel plays more big games a year than Tajh by double.
And saying "Shaw didn't do anything special" misses the entire point. Shaw doesn't cost his team the game. He never absolutely chokes and destroys the rest of the team's chance. Chad Morris has had to change his playcalling to account for Tajh being temporarily unable to hit any of his receivers. Tajh's lows are too low and too often. Tajh at his best, even 50% of the time is still an elite QB if his bad games were not so often and so dang bad.
Tajh's best games are as good as anyone. But it is his bad games, because of how bad they are, that keep him from being elite. Mediocre QB's have better bad games than Tajh.
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All-TigerNet [14921]
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He didn't do #### against Mizzou last week either.
Dec 5, 2013, 10:53 AM
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Or LSU in '12 (0 TDs, 3 INTs) or UF in '12 (0 TDs, 0 INTs).
He's played in as many "big games" as Tajh where he's failed to perform.
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All-TigerNet [14921]
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Also, Shaw, despite his record vs CU still has
Dec 5, 2013, 10:48 AM
[ in reply to I disagree with your last statement. ] |
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"choked" in other big games (177 yds, 2 TDs, 2 INTs vs. LSU in '12; 128 yds, 2 rushing TDs, 0 passing TDs, 1 INT, 1 fumble vs. Arky in '11).
Anyone can find bad performances vs. good competition for great QBs. Even "elite" ones.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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You don't seem to acknowledge the difference between subpar
Dec 5, 2013, 10:56 AM
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performance and an absolute choke. Statistics are not the only guide for that. Accuracy of the throws, the amount of short throws, the amount of good throws under pressure, decision-making. I think you are relying on stats because they help you maintain your perception of Tajh as you want it. I would rather think Tajh was better than I currently do, but paying attention to what's going on has convinced me otherwise.
I do not believe that Manziel or Shaw have done nearly the damage to their teams in big games. Not scoring a TD does not qualify as a choke.
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All-TigerNet [11208]
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There were times, against lesser opponents too. ie.NCSt
Dec 5, 2013, 11:01 AM
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Dude looked like a milky way bar, sitting in the August sun.
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All-TigerNet [14921]
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Well then go back and watch the games.
Dec 5, 2013, 11:01 AM
[ in reply to You don't seem to acknowledge the difference between subpar ] |
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Shaw did flat out choke verses those two teams specifically. As did Manziel (moreso LSU than UF but keep in mind he has played an entire season less than Boyd). I think your perception is based almost entirely on the very last game Boyd has played. I think going 0-3 vs. USuCk is clouding everyone's perception of Boyd right now.
Constantly tweaking your definition of how Boyd isn't "elite" doesn't take away the times he frequently was or diminish times that other "elite" QBs have also "choked."
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Well I hope most people agree with you instead of me but....
Dec 5, 2013, 11:07 AM
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I'm not tweaking my definition. In order to be elite, a QB has to rise to the occasion more times than not, and lead his team to victory in big games more often than he contributes heavily to defeat.
If half of his big games are failure, to me that is incompatible with elite. If he lost to SCAR and didn't play terrible, then I would still say he was elite. But he is a part of the reason we lost to them 2 out of three times.
You can highlight the negative parts of other QB's career all day long, but that doesn't make Tajh Boyd elite. If there are only 3 or 4 elite QB's a year, or only 1 or 2, so be it. Hopefully Tajh does well in the NFL and proves people like me wrong, but I don't see it. But I'm no expert.
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All-TigerNet [14921]
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Fair enough***
Dec 5, 2013, 11:09 AM
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CU Medallion [55408]
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Re: I'm curious for the (non-Coot, if there are any) "Tajh
Dec 5, 2013, 10:21 AM
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Not to me it doesn't. As much as we dislike Slurrier, he has this year and a couple other games have out coached the h&ll out of our coaches and won with less. I think that 2 of the usuc wins were won with a better team than ours. The other 3 were won by Slurrier doing more with less. Morris is getting schooled by ONE of the best in Slurrier on game day.
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Orange Blooded [3855]
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Lets look at this........
Dec 5, 2013, 10:28 AM
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Tajh Boyds wins: FSU, VT x 2, UGA, and LSU.
Tajh Boyds loses: FSU x 2, USuC x 3, and WVU.
That is a record of 5-6. All 6 of those games were double digit defeats also.....
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All-TigerNet [14921]
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Unless Boyd played a few defensive snaps, you can
Dec 5, 2013, 10:41 AM
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hardly blame the OB loss on him...
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CU Guru [1776]
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True, but lack of offensive output gave the opponent's
Dec 5, 2013, 10:59 AM
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offense more opportunity in the other games.
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All-TigerNet [14921]
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Um I'm pretty sure we were going to take the lead in the 2nd
Dec 5, 2013, 11:02 AM
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when Ellington coughed up the ball on the goal line. If anyone on offense "choked" in that one is was Andre...
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Scout Team [166]
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Tajh's legacy is winning the ACC championship.
Dec 5, 2013, 10:31 AM
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Something NO SCAR player can claim since 1969.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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I would trade that in for beating them.
Dec 5, 2013, 10:32 AM
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The year we won the ACC championship was one of the most embarrassing years to be a Clemson fan.
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All-TigerNet [14921]
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Well despite what the armchair QBs on here, I think when
Dec 5, 2013, 10:42 AM
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the dust settles, history will remember #10 as an "elite" QB. One of the best in ACC history and best ever at CU.
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Orange Blooded [2507]
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I find it hard to believe so many people are this petty
Dec 5, 2013, 11:00 AM
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Losing to the coots hurts bad but that doesn't change what Tajh has done for Clemson and all the records he holds. He'll to me always be the QB that brought us back to relevance.
They can say what they want but when you throw for 10000 yards and run for another 1000, something NO ACC QB had ever done then you are a great player and you will be missed.
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Oculus Spirit [93668]
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You might think Tajh chokes in the big games if you think...
Dec 5, 2013, 12:47 PM
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playing those who sport 5th place SEC rings a big game.
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Fan [53]
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I feel bad for tajh
Dec 5, 2013, 12:52 PM
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It seems like a lot of people would rather blame him than admit clemson just hasn't been as good as Carolina that last few years.
It didn't matter who was at qb that night you weren't winning.
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All-TigerNet [11208]
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Bless your heart.***
Dec 5, 2013, 1:11 PM
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Standout [305]
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Here we go again
Dec 5, 2013, 1:16 PM
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Every time we "like" and respect a player for a variety of reasons we put on the orange colored glasses. I recall this same type of discussion a few years ago around Woody Danzler and whether he'd make it in the pro's. We saw Michael Vick..even on the same field with Woody in the Gator Bowl, and the argument was Woody could play in the NFL. Well Woody couldn't play and unfortunately I don't think Tajh will make it very long either. I could be wrong but he seems to have a few "fatal" flaws ...not seeing the field very well, not moving in the pocket well, and others that will hold him back at the next level. Who knows...maybe he'll be a star..but I wouldn't put many millions on it.
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