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Orange Blooded [2750]
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Dabo vs. Fowler
Dec 2, 2019, 10:42 AM
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It seems on this topic (both this season and to some degree in seasons past), there is much talking past each other and sloppy argumentation. I think the real disjunction comes down to this: a failure to make a distinction between bias in the **overall narrative**, on the one hand, vs. an *actual* disrespect or even attempt to keep Clemson out of the playoff, on the other. I think it's the former that is the problem, not the latter.
If you like Dabo's style in how he's leveraging this for motivation, that's another thing entirely (not addressing that here), but there is literally no argument to be made that Clemson is generally *poorly* regarded on the whole - hyper-criticizes, under-valued, yes - but poorly regarded, no. There is plenty of talk from sports radio guys, commentators, announces, etc. about how elite Clemson is. Furthermore, not only is the committee clearly putting us in if we win the ACC, but they've shown a willingness to put us in with a loss (twice), including a loss to a bad Syracuse team in 2017.
All that said, I also think it's clear that, concerning Clemson coverage - there is an SEC bias, and more specifically, an anti-ACC bias, and a consistent tendency to blow ACC weakness out of proportion and thus Clemson close calls (UNC) out of proportion. There is no doubt about this. The key is to not oversell the point. Did the media hyperventilate and over-react to the UNC game and Trevor's early season rust? Absolutely. Should they be called on it? Absolutely. Does this mean we are generally poorly regarded, or that they're trying to keep us out of the CFP? No. Everyone and their brother knows that our strength of schedule is significantly weaker than other contenders. The problem is not that's somehow a fiction, but rather, that some media types blow it out of proportion, the ACC is down, but our schedule isn't as bad as some assume. Also, there's a tendency to take the ACC's down years and project that onto other years.
In any event, I love Dabo to death. He doesn't need to apologize for anything, but he also doesn't need to act (in public, anyway) like analysts are disrespecting us for having us 3rd in the rankings. It's hard to go undefeated? Yeah, it is. OSU and LSU have done that, too. SOMEONE has to be ranked 3rd. It's not an insult. When folks hear this, they have a tendency to then miss the larger point about the real bias - b/c they can't get past the laugher that everyone's trying to keep Clemson out of a field in which they're ranked 3rd in.
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Hall of Famer [24169]
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Dabo-2 Time National Championship Coach vs. Fowler 2nd rate
Dec 2, 2019, 10:54 AM
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espn talent that has accomplished nothing.
Easy to pick the winner here.
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Head Coach [758]
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Re: Dabo-2 Time National Championship Coach vs. Fowler 2nd rate
Dec 2, 2019, 11:34 AM
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They have accomplished so much...they deride players for doing things that they could not even accomplish themselves in a million years...but on a routine basis they get sore muscles from slapping each other on the back and running their mouth...example Timmy Teabow is SEC mouthpiece #1 bacause he can't play football...at least not at the next level...so he runs his mouth about what's wrong with Trevor! Sunshine makes that Teabow could never make...ever, and does it with ease! Lawrence could be the hands down MVP, Heisman, whatever if he played as much as Teabow runs his mouth...oh wait...that would be pregame, 4 quarters and postgame...Lawrence has played 4 whole games less than Burreaux and with no competition (Miss, Vandy, Miss St., Missery) he would have many more yards than anyone!
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All-In [36207]
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I Think The Miss Here is Dabo I Think Truly Feels This Way
Dec 2, 2019, 10:58 AM
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and is not, by design, using it for motivation. Look I'm Clemson to the core and biased, but the media bias the other direction has been insane. Narrative now is normalizing a bit now, but it was horrid and not at all equal-handed. UGA should have been decimated by the media for the USUCK loss and now even more so. UGA is going to get DESTROYED by LSU no doubt about it.
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Orange Blooded [2750]
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Well, that I have accounted for . . .
Dec 2, 2019, 11:17 AM
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Right. But the bias of the media is not something I contest at all. It's real. The issue is, does some bias amount to a total disqualification of all points that are not in Clemson's favor. Is it illegitimate to cite SOS. Is it false that ours this year is worse than our contenders? Is much of anyone trying to keep us out or saying we don't deserve to be in (whilst very often also singing our praises?).
This is a good example of what I'm talking about - the failure to make a distinction. I say: A) there is real bias, BUT B) they're not trying to keep us out or suggest we're not deserving, and the immediate response is . . . .BUT THE BIAS IS HORRIBLE!! Granted, I agree. Angers me too. But we're not being dispatched with like some say. OSU and LSU are unbeaten too. Is it totally illegitimate to make a comparative analysis (including our schedules) and rank accordingly?
Everyone points out the GA SC loss, and it should be factored in no less than other games. But it's not like the AU, UF, and ND wins don't count. We got in with a horrible loss in 2017. The bias is real, but it's not the end-all-be-all here.
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Standout [309]
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Re: Well, that I have accounted for . . .
Dec 2, 2019, 11:49 AM
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Our horrible loss against Syracuse was on the road with injured KB. UGAYs loss was at home with their starting QB against usuc and their 3rd string qb. Which loss is worser. Or is it worsee. The media keeps bringing up our loss to unc-they whine about Clemson all year and their weak schedule. My philosphy-if you serve it up-at least be man enough to take it-or maybe just keep your mouth shut. To hear them say people are just tired of Clemson being in the playoff-they aren't tired of hoping for all sec and big10 teams.
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Orange Blooded [2750]
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that's only half the analysis . . .
Dec 2, 2019, 11:55 AM
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it's not that that point is false, but it's only half the story. You can't split hairs between two really bad losses (who cares which one was worse - they were both bad) and declare that's the difference that allows one team in and keeps another out. The point is, we got in with a terrible loss, a game we had no business losing EVEN ON THE ROAD WITH AN INJURED QB (and by the way we weren't doing too well even before he got injured.
Georgia got flack for the loss - no one really truly excused it. Plenty of folks issued marked criticism. But we can't make the simplistic accusation that they lost to SC and be done with it. They also had some impressive wins against quality teams and anyone would be dishonest to refuse to discuss those as counterbalancing elements. That kind of analysis is precisely why we made it in despite that Syracuse loss in 2017. It would be dishonest to truncate the GA discussion at the point of the SC game. The media isn't biased simply b/c they bring that up. They may be biased, but not for that.
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110%er [5072]
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Re: Well, that I have accounted for . . .
Dec 2, 2019, 1:30 PM
[ in reply to Re: Well, that I have accounted for . . . ] |
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Didn't Georgia fall to 9th or 10th following the South Carolina loss? People act as if they kept their current ranking at the time or something. The bottom line is, many on here want Georgia out of the discussion simply for that loss, but never offer up a team that has a more impressive resume currently that is ranked behind them.
Also, didn't Bryant get hurt pretty close to halftime in that game which we were already struggling in? Didn't Hilliski get hurt in the 3rd quarter or something? Both injuries still matter of course, but you say it as if both guys missed the entire game. South Carolina didn't beat Georgia because the 3rd quarterback lit them up or anything. In fact, I'm pretty sure they only scored 3 points after Hilliski went down which was the winning FG in overtime.
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CU Guru [1076]
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Re: Dabo vs. Fowler
Dec 2, 2019, 10:58 AM
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Dabo said what was needed and he should leave it there. All business from here out. JMO
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Oculus Spirit [97664]
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The media follows power, winners, and money. Period.
Dec 2, 2019, 11:00 AM
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Sports, politics, doesn't matter. They can't explain Dabo's success anymore than they can explain why Donald Trump is President.
I only hope Dabo is smart enough, and I think he is, to know they will NEVER respect us as long as we're winning the right way. It just will not happen. They may come around after many years, but I doubt it.
I hope this is just Dabo creating some motivation, and isn't him actually TRYING to earn their respect, because their respect is meaningless. They'll toss you under the bus as soon as you lose.
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110%er [5372]
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Great post. ***
Dec 2, 2019, 11:02 AM
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Orange Blooded [2248]
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Re: Dabo vs. Fowler
Dec 2, 2019, 11:02 AM
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I think that some of the pushback by Dabo is because of his players. I know that the individual accolades are not important to the players and not even to Dabo in the grand scheme of things if you want to compare the importance to team success. However, parents, and I suspect coaches, want their kids to get all of the credit that they deserve.
To me it seemed like the media refused to pick up on Dabo's argument that last years team was the best team ever, though the team that they had tried to tout as such had just gotten beat by 4 TD's. Dabo made the argument, because those young men deserve to be mentioned in that debate for a long time. Etienne is not a finalist for the Doak Walker award despite leading all of the finalist by more than 2 yards per carry. Trevor is hardly mentioned for anything despite being a monster since he got into form, and his start was nowhere near as bad as they acted.
It is not what they play for, and is not as important as winning, but these young men still deserve to get all of the accolades, and I think that is the reason for Dabo's comments.
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Orange Blooded [2750]
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I agree as far as that goes . . .
Dec 2, 2019, 11:50 AM
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and that is part of what I'd put under the umbrella of the overall narrative that I mentioned. My criticism of Dabo's comments is limited to his talk about "they" not even wanting us in the playoffs, and him pushing back about our schedule. Our schedule's ranked markedly lower than other contenders, and somehow he implies that it's bias when commenators notice. He says this even as he says that there's no entitlement to win and that a team hasn't earned anything in a given year b/c of what they did last year. Every year he says that at the start . . . then, near the end, he starts lecturing the media about how we've won 20-something in a row, this many bowl games, such-and-such a record against SEC teams in the last X number of years etc etc. I mean, he (and all of us) need to make up our mind . . .we criticize the media for giving Bama transfer credit for previous years (and we should criticize them too), then when someone spouts raw facts about our SOS in the context of analysis, we start spouting off accomplishments of past years. What gives? It's not consistent.
It's very simple. The media has an SEC bias, and an anti-ACC bias, but it's not necessarily the locus of all unfavorable assessments of Clemson - including our 2019 SOS.
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Legend [15212]
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Fowler missed Dabo's point.
Dec 2, 2019, 11:08 AM
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Dabo just doesn't think his players and such get recognized for what they've accomplished this season because we keep rehashing one bad game and the fact that the ACC is down.
I don't think Dabo is truly upset that we are ranked #3.
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All-TigerNet [10824]
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Re: Fowler missed Dabo's point.
Dec 2, 2019, 11:20 AM
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The Tigers (coaches and players) have all the motivation they need to go out and stomp whatever is in their way. I can't believe Dabo really cares that much about what Chris Fowler (who is good, IMO) or what anyone else in the media thinks. He's a master motivator and will use whatever anyone gives him. I think Clemson gets dissed in the sense that the guys and women at ESECPN spend most of their time gushing over 'Bammer, UGA, LSPU, AWWWBURN, and the dregs in that conference. But, the Committee has the Tigers at #3, so no complaints with them.
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Orange Blooded [2750]
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No, Fowler didn't miss Dabo's point
Dec 2, 2019, 2:53 PM
[ in reply to Fowler missed Dabo's point. ] |
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Fowler responded in particular to the part about people supposedly trying to keep Clemson out of the playoff and not respecting Clemson generally as a progra,m or as a team this year. That's what Fowler was objecting to. Dabo was absolutely justified in his complaints about the dearth of individual award recognition, but that's a separate/distinct point from "they don't even want us in there [playoff], anyway."
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Athletic Dir [855]
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Some of the talking heads are losing their luster...
Dec 2, 2019, 11:15 AM
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I don't watch ESPN except for games. I don't care much for some of their commentaries, which is just what they are. There is not much critical thought, and a good bit of their opinion is based upon what they want to see.
Case in point, they are dying that there won't be a Tua vs. Jalen Hurts matchup. Most of us know that was what they wanted more than anything.
They love the transfer portal, not because it has made the game better (IT HASN'T). It gave them more to talk about and grand stand about.
They have to bring in as many regions as they came by highlighting suspect teams. This pleases their advertisers like Home Depot (which I like). They need to sell widgets in Seattle, Eugene, Ann Arbor, Athens, Waco, Miami, Bangor, and Columbia (Missouri and SC). Heck, Jesse's helping Home Depot in Canada...Oh Canada!
To some my rant up, these guys don't appreciate Dabo telling them that they have made his job easy, as that was obviously not their intent!
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Oculus Spirit [93608]
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I know who Dabo is, who is Fowler?***
Dec 2, 2019, 11:25 AM
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110%er [7555]
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Re: Dabo vs. Fowler
Dec 2, 2019, 11:41 AM
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Bias and disrespect......both definitely apply here involving media against Clemson.......we have won 2 out of 3 last national championships, won 27 in a row I think, beat the living crap out of Bama last year who the media said was the best college football team ever, have the best QB and running back in the nation, not to mention probably the best 2 receivers in the nation, yet Dabo and our players get no respect from the media at all......if the news was being reported fair and factual Clemson would still be ranked # 1 by the committee and in all the polls, the Heisman trophy would be coming to Clemson, and ESPN would be bankrupt by now.....this all will be validated again by Clemson come playoff time but this will not the told or covered by the media just like last season.......Go Tigers!!!!!
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Starter [394]
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Re: Dabo vs. Fowler
Dec 2, 2019, 1:22 PM
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What those of you defending (kinda) the media don't know is that in the entire history of the AP Poll (since 1936) there has NEVER been an undefeated National Champion that went undefeated the following year and was NOT ranked Number 1. NEVER in 84 years - until now. Not all of those Champions had stellar schedules in follow up to their championship season, but they were nevertheless ranked No. 1. Not 5, not 4, not 3, not even No. 2. Number One.
Personally, I think we beat the brakes off of everyone, except Ohio State. That one is too close to call for me. However, it isn't for Vegas. They pick Clemson. And unlike us or even the media - their success DEPENDS on being right.
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Orange Blooded [2750]
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I don't think so . . .
Dec 2, 2019, 3:05 PM
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that's not being ignored. I knew it and am not ignoring it. In fact, that is precisely part of the point here. In the late 90's, every college football fan and their brother wanted a system that pit #1 vs. #2, rather than having the pollsters arrange national championships by default through their choice of placements in bowls - which were more about money than merit per se.
Then, everyone and their brother decided they wanted a playoff, AND NOT JUST THAT, but a ratings system that took accomplishments, and not just program prestige into account - a system that rewarded teams for what they DID, and not just the logo on their helmet. A system that invited the powers that be to examine in detail, and objectively - not simply casting mindless vote according to regional affiliation of the beat writers who were voting . . .
Well, here we are and anyone paying attention to college football knows that not only does the committee state that it aims to assess a teams accomplishments and body of work and not privilege pedigree or give passes for success in prior years, but almost all fans agree with that philosophy even if they don't always agree on particular assessments or metric analysis.
So, when the retort comes that we simply don't realize that it USED to ALWAYS be decided via issuing uncritical, reflexive deference to pedigree and past accomplishments . . . I say, yes, yes we do realize that. That's exactly what we were all trying to get away from when we abandoned that system . . . so the fact that we aren't trying to fall back into those old ways of (non-meritorious rankings) doesn't exactly help the counter-point.
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Rock Defender [53]
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110%er [5072]
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Re: Dabo vs. Fowler
Dec 2, 2019, 1:42 PM
[ in reply to Re: Dabo vs. Fowler ] |
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I do think we have the best team in the country, the best quarterback, the best running back, and at least 2 of the best receivers out there. However, it's ironic that you're saying the media is biased against Clemson, but assume we should be ranked #1 this season based on the past 3 years before this one, and that we should have a Heisman winner this season. Just who on our team deserves the Heisman this season? Lawrence and ETN are certainly talented enough to win one, but I can't honestly sit here and say either should win that award this season.
Then you say the media didn't cover us after winning last year? Was it not the media putting things like "Dabo's Dynasty" on magazine covers following last season? Was it not the media who talked Lawrence up as a future #1 pick in the draft, and the clear Heisman favorite heading into this season? Was it not the same media who had us ranked #1 to start this season?
I see though, they're ignoring us whenever they're doing things like that for us, but they're being biased against us when they award other teams for beating top 10 teams, and drop us down a couple of spots for winning by 1 point over a team that finished 6-6. We're still ranked 3rd for the love of god, and if we're the legit best team in the country then we'll be ranked #1 when it's all over. You people get so worked up over this that you'd think it was like the old days before the playoff or BCS when we couldn't win the NC without being voted #1.
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110%er [5121]
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Re: Dabo vs. Fowler
Dec 2, 2019, 1:50 PM
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Dabo’s whole argument is that we have to win every game or we’re out, whereas the media has been arguing about getting 1 or 2 loss teams in over us.
He’s right. Had we lost to u of SC then we would fall to probably 10 or so. Uga would move to 3 even though they lost to the cooters.
The media has pushed the ACC sucks narrative to the point that even when we win by 40 it just doesn’t count as much as some others “good losses”.
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