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All-In [42161]
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Help me understand loving or adoring a leader.
May 21, 2018, 10:25 PM
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I've never been able to wrap my head around people who adore a leader or someone running for office. I'm not talking about, "Well, I like this guy better than this guy," or "He believes this stance on this issue, so I'll vote for him." I'm talking about wearing their gear, putting their stickers on your car, and showing up to rallies cheering.
I think about people who still show up to see Trump with MAGA hats and scream their heads off. Or in the election, all those people fawning over Hillary. I don't get it. Like, is it hard for everyone to realize that both of them are extremely terrible people? Or am I just too cynical?
I've never in my life sported the paraphernalia of a politician on any clothing, vehicle, etc. There are guys I liked better than their opponents, but none that I had adoration for.
I've been to a lot of rallies and speeches of politicians. Bush was pretty inane the multiple times I went to see him (although I voted for him in 2000). I got drunk at a McCain rally at GSP in 2000, but I only applauded the free beer. Went to hear Hillary speak one time. She sucked out loud. Al Gore in person? Zzzzzzzzz. Bill Clinton was funny as hell in person but I still knew what he was.
But at each of these events, lots of cheering and banner waving and blind love.
You see it more with conservatives, but that's only because they score higher on Haidt's loyalty spectrum, so that's not a knock on them. That's how they're hard-wired.
So for anyone on this board who has really loved a politician--and I'm talking slapping a W: The President sticker or that "Hope and Change" stuff on your car--explain why you felt this way. Am I just swimming too much in cynicism to get behind any political leader?
Because what bothers me about it is that any person in power that you adore that much, well, you're willing to turn a blind eye to their transgressions.
And if you can do that, they'll make you believe anything.
Which goes back to, "Those who can make you believe absurdities will make you commit atrocities."
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Heisman Winner [111580]
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Re: Help me understand loving or adoring a leader.
May 22, 2018, 12:22 AM
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there are a lot of reasons to adore Trump. He has an R next to his name. He validates the fantasy that Obama ruined the country, and he will fix it. He will assemble a conservative majority SCOTUS that will put an end to abortion. And of course he is extremely rich and a winner. What is not to like about that?
oh, and he bangs pron stars and playboy models for money and false promises, and his wife does not dare utter one word about it. That is a real man right there folks.
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All-In [48078]
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Brainwashed by partisan politics.****
May 22, 2018, 5:10 AM
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110%er [6238]
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It's just dumb people...
May 22, 2018, 7:16 AM
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They are easily brainwashed.
Politics have also become the sports team syndrome. Yankees vs. Red Sox. You're either for us or against us.
Nobody can possibly be in the middle, right?
TV networks have figured out that extreme left and extreme right sell$.
This just furthers the agenda and creates more fanatics. Rinse and repeat
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CU Medallion [60043]
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Re: It's just dumb people...
May 22, 2018, 7:29 AM
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"You're either for us or against us."
This really took off and had legs when President Bush said this while standing on the rubble of the World Trade Center.
In that instance and in that moment in time, I agree, however that statement has since been bastardized and used against him by people who forget that feeling when the towers were falling.
But I am not sure that is what you are saying, just wanted to point that out.
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All-In [42161]
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That's a good example...
May 22, 2018, 9:11 AM
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Of how the loyalty went too far with Bush. You can cite this board as Exhibit A during the 2003-04 era. We had people on here calling for legitimate prosecution and punishment of Americans who didn't support the war effort or the president. Some called for a return to the Sedition Acts. Others used less punitive measures like claiming you hated the troops if you didn't support the Iraq war.
We had people on here who were so infatuated with Bush and his post-9/11 decisions that it really was disturbing.
I wasn't really on here for the Obama era, but I'm sure some folks did that with him, too.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Post 9/11 wasn't about loyalty for Bush as much as most
May 22, 2018, 12:02 PM
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people felt he was saying what they were feeling. He was seen as a goober to most people before 9/11. But after right after 9/11 he was obviously genuinely pissed off. People felt a connection to him because it was a rare opportunity that most Americans had the same feelings. The country wanted to get the people responsible, and in those first few weeks nearly everyone felt like Bush was taking the gloves off and not speaking like a politician. He sounded more like a general.
This faded away as his administration abused the mandate. But I remember those first few weeks very clearly. People were mad and wanted terrorists removed. Bush's administration agreed and rode that wave.
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All-In [42161]
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I see what you're saying but...
May 22, 2018, 2:13 PM
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Disagree that there wasn't Bush worship. This board, particularly. Xtiger loved him some Bush but pretends now that he didn't.
W:The President stickers. Really, a person should smack themselves in the face if they actually put one of those on their cars. How embarrassing.
You're right about your sentiments but there was still some blind loyalty to Bush, and some people wanting frightening action taken against those who opposed him.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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I admit that I was one of those people that "loved" Bush.
May 22, 2018, 2:28 PM
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It was 100% due to his reaction to 9/11. I felt like I saw something real about him, and as an overly conservative, jinoistic butt-terd (I've learned a bit since then) I believed Bush was a good American that I could relate to. My extreme approval of his post- 9/11 behavior caused me to gloss over other obvious problems.
I'm sharing this perspective, because I know a lot of other conservatives felt the same way. Lukewarm or indifferent to him before 9/11, and then very favorable and loyal afterwards. I still have a soft-spot for him, if I'm being honest. I think his highest approval ratings were too high, but so were his lowest ratings too low. He was judged for doing exactly what the US wanted him to do.
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CU Medallion [60043]
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Re: Help me understand loving or adoring a leader.
May 22, 2018, 7:27 AM
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Its all tribalism and is at the heart of many people. It also has a lot to do with perceived honor in their community.
I agree, no political gear for me, EXCEPT for a Bush/Cheney cup that was handed to me by Ari Fleischer in 2003.
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Legend [17915]
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This nation is full of maury povich people
May 22, 2018, 7:50 AM
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They love the bachelorette and naked and afraid... they live for the view and every other ideal that these shows support. They only support the people when the ideals align with their own. The one with the voice they think is strongest and in alignment with their ideals is the one they jump and shout for.
Sooner or later, though, their "person" will fail them but that's OK because they know it was really just and error in judgment. Like a WWF wrestling match, when the good guy turns on his partner and joins the dark side...they know the good guy will come back to their side - so they never hold them accountable. It is a "Star Wars" salute lived out by real people with real ideals... but they could swithch to the dark side too. Any moment now.... a new face and a new bumper sticker
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Lot o points [155907]
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It’s an unjustified, unproductive sentiment, not much
May 22, 2018, 7:55 AM
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different from unbridled hatred for a leader.
When people love or loathe a leader at an level that is wayyyy too personally invested, logic and reason have generally been pushed far into the background.
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Heisman Winner [137925]
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Whatever, man.
May 22, 2018, 8:53 AM
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RED KNIGHT SUCKS, BLUE KNIGHT RULES.
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All-In [45756]
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Leaders aren't suposed to be put up on pedestals.....
May 22, 2018, 8:01 AM
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People forget they put on their pants like we do. One leg at a time. Tired cliches are tired. From putting pants on. If the shoe fits. It's pitiful the way some are fawning over our leaders. It reminds me of the way the British treat royalty. That's also ridiculously stupid. Politicians are not to be trusted. They sell their souls regularly for money or to get elected again. Can anyone name one that is honest and good?
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CU Medallion [60043]
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Re: Leaders aren't suposed to be put up on pedestals.....
May 22, 2018, 8:23 AM
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There are times when they should be on a pedestal for a short amount of time. Like during a National Tragedy. That is when President Obama was at his best, when in front of a camera and having to come to the American people with a message during tragedy. He even made me feel reassured. That is fine and that is what a leader is supposed to do. But I agree on any leader on a pedestal is a problem
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All-In [45756]
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I believe that's called
May 22, 2018, 8:27 AM
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A false sense of security portrayed by a seasoned actor. Just sayin'
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Heisman Winner [135896]
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It is anti "American" in many ways
May 22, 2018, 8:40 AM
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Washington refused a third term in part because he was tired but mainly because he knew the cult of his personality was a danger to the new republic. The peaceful transfer of power at the end of his 2nd term was far more remarkable than people now understand.
Putting country above self is the ultimate American Ideal and has been lost in the pursuit of money and power.
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All-In [42161]
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This is why I put Washington...
May 22, 2018, 8:46 AM
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At the top of the list in ranking U.S. presidents. No president in our history had more of an opportunity to seize permanent power, and he willingly gave it up.
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Oculus Spirit [81061]
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I made a similar statement years ago about Obama.
May 22, 2018, 9:14 AM
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I would like to hear what camcgee® says about that now.
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All-In [42161]
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I think we definitely saw it with Obama.
May 22, 2018, 9:19 AM
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He had a pretty strong cult of personality going on, and criticizing him in the wrong environment could generate some real anger.
I remember getting in this discussion with one of our friends one time. He asked me if I thought Obama was a good president. He was shocked when I said no.
I get it. Our friend is gay and he loved Obama for the advancements for homosexual people under his presidency. But he couldn't fathom why anyone would criticize the man. I pointed out that I didn't approve of his drone usage or that he continued many of the Bush era policies that I had opposed. I also criticized his handling of the Ukraine situation.
But for our friend, it was blind love over a single issue.
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All-In [28802]
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I agree with all of that
May 22, 2018, 1:52 PM
[ in reply to I made a similar statement years ago about Obama. ] |
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You shouldn't have personal fealty to a politician. They're just vehicles for the ideas and policies you like. But that extends to hating politicians as if they were a class of people, and thus believing some candidate is better than "politicians" because you see them as an outsider.
Message was edited by: camcgee®
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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It's embedded in human nature. Some people are helplessly
May 22, 2018, 11:46 AM
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inclined to follow and are not equipped with the means to discriminate based on their self-interests.
Founding Fathers knew this and tried to craft a system that took it into account. Would have worked, but, humans spent a couple hundred years screwing it up. People just can't help themselves. Chinese have always known this. (Dynastic cycle.) The West still believes in Utopia.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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That said, political correctness is an equally damaging
May 22, 2018, 11:55 AM
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mental illness. And team Blue is far more susceptible to that that team Red.
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110%er [7026]
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I agree with you.
May 22, 2018, 12:14 PM
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There was a LOT of adoration for President Obama he could do no wrong in some peoples eye, and to say different meant you were a racist.. It was mind numbing. Add to that the media throughout the 8 years. Hell Evan Thompson said "I mean in a way Obama’s standing above the country, above – above the world, he’s sort of God."
I was concerned about the pendulum swing, and here we have it with President Trump. The rah rah team politics is at it's highest level ever. His supporters will see no wrong, or play the "well Obama did it too" card when they know they were raising hell then, but it's just fine now.
Only thing that is certain is that this mentality is horrible for America.... But hey go team!!!
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110%er [7026]
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*Evan Thomas***
May 22, 2018, 12:14 PM
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Legend [15492]
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For the same reason that Kim Kardashian has
May 22, 2018, 1:30 PM
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60 million twitter followers.
American's seem to love deifying people.
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All-In [28802]
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I also feel similarly about people who hate politicians
May 22, 2018, 1:51 PM
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Also always wondered whether the people who worked for campaigns were crazy true believers or just cynical.
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Rock Defender [53]
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It's become one of those common ground devices
May 22, 2018, 2:02 PM
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used on this and many other forums to simply dismiss all politicians as corrupt liars. Maybe I'm just too optimistic or naive, but I don't share the belief that true public servants are imaginary.
I also recognize that many folks who work for campaigns are just doing a job and are not necessarily endorsing all actions and speech from the candidate they work for. I don't equate a lawyer defending a rapist or in court as defending a rapist or murderer. They're just doing a job.
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All-In [42161]
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I don't think they're all corrupt liars.
May 22, 2018, 2:08 PM
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I think they're people unworthy of worship. People have flaws.
Given many of their positions, they are susceptible of corruption and problems, but hero worship makes people ignore that.
And any person on a quest of power should be eyed a bit suspiciously.
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All-In [28802]
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Yes, but hating all politicians is also dangerous
May 22, 2018, 2:11 PM
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Cynicism is often self-fulfilling, and frequently a way of avoiding thinking seriously about something.
Message was edited by: camcgee®
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All-In [42161]
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It seems to be a generally bad idea...
May 22, 2018, 2:20 PM
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To hate any group of people simply for being that group of people.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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But it's a great idea to distrust those in power. Always.***
May 22, 2018, 2:32 PM
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All-In [28802]
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Maybe to be skeptical or trust but verify...
May 22, 2018, 5:50 PM
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but not always distrust.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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No, to be clear, distrust. Always.
May 22, 2018, 7:58 PM
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We have a system that is designed to not rely on trust. That really is the point. People with power can never be trusted, and doing so ALWAYS leads to tyranny. You really need to review your founding fathers history.
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All-In [28802]
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Right, but being motivated to campaign for somebody is odd
May 22, 2018, 2:09 PM
[ in reply to It's become one of those common ground devices ] |
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Maybe many of those people are more realistic than they let on, but there are other jobs in politics that don't require so much obsequiousness and spin.
Message was edited by: camcgee®
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Rock Defender [53]
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I was speaking more to paid staffers, not the volunteer
May 22, 2018, 2:16 PM
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corps. A candidate would have to be tirelessly working towards an issue that I care tremendously about to enlist my services for canvassing or other evangelizing.
I usually just show up and vote for someone.
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110%er [7026]
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I wish I didn't feel like they were all corrupt liars.
May 22, 2018, 2:37 PM
[ in reply to It's become one of those common ground devices ] |
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And I think many of them have genuine care for their constituents and the country when they first get to DC.. However, after a few years in the system, I think most of them care about their bottom line, and getting re-elected. Just look at what they promise to get elected, and then look at what actually happens... Which really isn't much.. The only thing they're really skilled at is kicking the can down the road.
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All-In [28802]
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They're not, though
May 22, 2018, 5:45 PM
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I think the attitude you're talking about comes from people whose expectations of what politicians can accomplish is at least a little about of line with what's possible. Many times, the politicians themselves don't even know what's possible, and thus over promise. At any rate, I think the more realistic about politics and politicians you are, the less cynical you actually become.
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110%er [7026]
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That's fair enough.
May 23, 2018, 2:14 PM
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I have become pretty cynical of everything political over the last 10-12 years. Probably just a me thing.
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All-In [28802]
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Na, that perspective seems pretty widespread
May 23, 2018, 2:18 PM
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Some of it is well-founded, but our institutions are designed to deal with much of it. I think we're at risk of having a large number of people believing that our institutions are illegitimate, and it's largely because people expect too much from politics and government. Ironically, it's often the people who claim to want the government out of their lives.
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110%er [7026]
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True.
May 23, 2018, 2:47 PM
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I just see most of them as trying to stay in and grab as much power as they possibly can. Especially the ones you see the most of in the news.
I've really hoped that the last 6 years or so would bring about a legitimate 3rd party, but it just hasn't and that's disappointing.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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If one isn't very skeptical of politicians then one is not
May 22, 2018, 2:32 PM
[ in reply to I also feel similarly about people who hate politicians ] |
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doing it right. We must always assume ulterior motives are at play or we are always harming ourselves.
Founding Fathers made that very clear and the whole point of the USA experiment was based on this being true in perpetuity.
We do not hold them accountable nearly enough. We can afford to do this because our standard of living placates us.
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All-In [28802]
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Your sentences don't really follow from each other.
May 22, 2018, 5:50 PM
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Assuming ulterior motives isn't being skeptical, it's being cynical or paranoid.
I don't think the founders had the paranoid style in mind at all. In fact, I don't think our institutions can really work when people are cynical about them or believe that everyone in power has ulterior motives. No institutions can work the way they're supposed to work if people think those institutions are corrupt, no matter what the evidence is.
Maybe the problem here is the transference of our skepticism of people onto the institutions themselves. Yes, the institutions are run by people and laws are enforced by people, but there is no stability when people don't believe their institutions can work and when people think think we're being governed arbitrarily. See Federalist 49 for what the people who had the most influence on the constitution thought about the proper attitude towards our laws and institutions.
Message was edited by: camcgee®
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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You badly mischaracterize two things.
May 22, 2018, 7:44 PM
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1. By equating a never-ending vigilance against the inherent corruption of people in power with "paranoia."
2. And the opinions of our Founding Fathers.
Thomas Jefferson said.. “I own I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive.”
Notice the term ALWAYS.
Federalist (not anti) 47 said... “The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many, and whether hereditary, self-appointed, or elective, may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny.”
He says here that simply having this level of power EQUATES to Tyranny. It is clear that James Madison sees this as invariable.
Madison in Fed 48 said “It will not be denied that power is of an encroaching nature and that it ought to be effectually restrained from passing the limits assigned to it."
He's saying that power itself corrupts and that the government has to be designed to remove trust from people. "Restrained"
Patrick Henry:
"The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them."
So, don't trust people, make them tell you what's going on.
He also said...
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel."
SUSPECT EVERYONE who approaches that jewel.
Your perspective is wrong. It is that simple.
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All-In [28802]
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None of this means always being distrusftul
May 23, 2018, 2:13 PM
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And your own posts frequently cross over into paranoia. That's because you, and many of the people who have a similar automatic distrust, are distrusting the institutions that provide checks and balances to the accumulation of power in any one person or part of government. Absolute distrust just ends in a belief in illegitimacy and conspiracy.
Message was edited by: camcgee®
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Yes it absolutely does mean being distrustful. I'm
May 23, 2018, 3:56 PM
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a bit surprised that someone who seems so rational most of the time appears to be having a bout of irrationality.
"Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel."
It says SUSPECT EVERYONE. How can an honest, rational person interpret that we are supposed to trust anyone at any time? It says SUSPECT........ EVERYONE. You are supposed to have checks and balances that PRECLUDE the necessity for trust.
You seem absolutely wedded to the organizing force of institutions, so much so that your ability to comprehend what you are reading has been temporarily corrupted.
The reason checks and balances exist is because WE CANT TRUST any of them. If we could, what need for checks and balances otherwise exists?
Absolute distrust leads to trustless systems, which are ideal. This is the entire purpose of our constitution. Men with power, should not be trusted. Ever. At all. So we developed an awesome system to take that into account. Your proclivity for an organizing force is really enervating your ability to see the forest for the trees here.
Side note. This is why Blockchain is so groundbreaking. It solves the double-spend problem without the need for levels of human validators. A truly trustless, automatic way to confirm transactions and other legal/financial data.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Anti-Federalist 67 (portion)
May 22, 2018, 3:12 PM
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And wherein does this president, invested with his powers and prerogatives, essentially differ from the king of Great Britain (save as to name, the creation of nobility, and some immaterial incidents, the offspring of absurdity and locality)? The direct prerogatives of the president, as springing from his political character, are among the following: It is necessary, in order to distinguish him from the rest of the community, and enable him to keep, and maintain his court, that the compensation for his services, or in other words, his revenue, should be such as to enable him to appear with the splendor of a prince. He has the power of receiving ambassadors from, and a great influence on their appointments to foreign courts; as also to make treaties, leagues, and alliances with foreign states, assisted by the Senate, which when made becomes the supreme law of land. He is a constituent part of the legislative power, for every bill which shall pass the House of Representatives and Senate is to be presented to him for approbation. If he approves of it he is to sign it, if he disapproves he is to return it with objections, which in many cases will amount to a complete negative; and in this view he will have a great share in the power of making peace, coining money, etc., and all the various objects of legislation, expressed or implied in this Constitution. For though it may be asserted that the king of Great Britain has the express power of making peace or war, yet he never thinks it prudent to do so without the advice of his Parliament, from whom be is to derive his support -and therefore these powers, in both president and king, are substantially the same. He is the generalissimo of the nation, and of course has the command and control of the army, navy and militia; he is the general conservator of the peace of the union-he may pardon all offenses, except in cases of impeachment, and the principal fountain of all offices and employments. Will not the exercise of these powers therefore tend either to the establishment of a vile and arbitrary aristocracy or monarchy? The safety of the people in a republic depends on the share or proportion they have in the government; but experience ought to teach you, that when a man is at the head of an elective government invested with great powers, and interested in his re-election, in what circle appointments will be made; by which means an imperfect aristocracy bordering on monarchy may be established. You must, however, my countrymen, beware that the advocates of this new system do not deceive you by a fallacious resemblance between it and your own state government [New York] which you so much prize; and, if you examine, you will perceive that the chief magistrate of this state is your immediate choice, controlled and checked by a just and full representation of the people, divested of the prerogative of influencing war and peace, making treaties, receiving and sending embassies, and commanding standing armies and navies, which belong to the power of the confederation, and will be convinced that this government is no more like a true picture of your own than an Angel of Darkness resembles an Angel of Light.
The reason our country was so awesome is because they were realistic about human nature. And they wanted a system that acknowledged it. They were not stupid enough to see it as "Us Good; them bad" They knew that power ALWAYS corrupts, here or anywhere else. Anyone who doesn't get that is naive and a threat to the Constitution.
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All-In [28802]
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Quoting the Anti-Federalist makes this a non-sequitur
May 22, 2018, 5:59 PM
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They were written in opposition to the Constitution, and their influence is felt in the Bill of Rights. The Bill of Rights protects certain rights from being impinged on by the government, but it doesn't follow that we should always distrust people with power. It also isn't really necessary to refer to these ideas to understand that we shouldn't idolize politicians.
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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You miss the point. They were in opposition to the
May 22, 2018, 7:24 PM
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Constitution WITHOUT the Bill of Rights. They were obviously just as instrumental as the Federalists (who also agree with me on this matter by the way) in the making of the Constitution of the United States of America.
And the point of quoting them here is to show that there was a pervading skepticism of people with power that existed in every corner of our early government. You try and make it seem radical to be vigilant against corruption of power, as if it is unstable paranoia, but it absolutely was a central (normal) part of both Federalists and Anti-Federalists' philosophy of government.
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All-In [28802]
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You're quoting this in a context with a Bill of Rights***
May 23, 2018, 2:12 PM
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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So what? My point remains 100% in place.
May 23, 2018, 4:03 PM
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The exact sentiment that I am espousing here was absolutely at the forefront of the debate over our founding documents and the development of our republic. Therefore, your argument that I am some sort of paranoid, radical, detached from the true spirit of our founding fathers, is not grounded in reality. In other words, you are simply incorrect.
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