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Legend [19576]
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Having an argument with another Clemson fan Re: Trick play
Aug 7, 2014, 10:54 AM
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vs uscjr. What's your opinion?
Was the trick play vs uscjr on the first drive a good or bad call? [Results]
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Good Call |
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Bad Call |
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Hall of Famer [21815]
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what's your opinion?***
Aug 7, 2014, 10:56 AM
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Legend [19576]
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Re: what's your opinion?***
Aug 7, 2014, 11:03 AM
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I think it was a horrible call. We were driving the ball with momentum. We didn't need a trick play. Trick plays are risky and should only be used when absolutely needed (late in tie games, down to the other team, stagnant offense, OT, etc)
These were the plays before the trick play:
pass for 10 yards
pass for 1 yard loss
pass for 8 yards
rush for 15 yards
pass for 5 yards
pass for 13 yards
trick play
It wasn't needed and it was risky. We had a WR throwing the ball to our 3rd best WR after moving the ball on them at will to the tune of 8.3 yards per play. I think the trick play was absolutely a bad call regardless of outcome.
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Head Coach [762]
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Re: what's your opinion?***
Aug 7, 2014, 11:04 AM
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Horrible call. Trick plays didn't work all year. Sammy couldn't throw the ball worth a ####.
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CU Medallion [51528]
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Orange Blooded [3881]
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you are right! If you don't need them....don't use them! and
Aug 7, 2014, 11:24 AM
[ in reply to Re: what's your opinion?*** ] |
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we didn't need it.
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110%er [5093]
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If these are the only times you run a trick plan
Aug 7, 2014, 12:11 PM
[ in reply to Re: what's your opinion?*** ] |
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It kind of kills the purpose of a trick play. You are expected to run them when the opponent isn't suspecting it.
It wasn't a bad play call, it just didn't work. If Boyd would have overthrown a fly route for an interception would that have been a poor play call in the situation?
No it wouldn't have been.
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Legend [19576]
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Re: If these are the only times you run a trick plan
Aug 7, 2014, 12:47 PM
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THAT would have been a player not executing.
You can't run a trick play and then say "Well the WR just didn't execute being a QB"
Really?
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Orange Blooded [3422]
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Re: If these are the only times you run a trick plan
Aug 7, 2014, 1:39 PM
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Exactly. A trick play isn't usually the best way to set the tone of a game, which is what that was was trying to do. It's best not to set the tone with gimmicks. It's best to change the tone of a game using a play like that. For a perfect example, look at the National Championship game.
Before the fake punt, FSU's offense was down in the dumps. They had 24 plays for 113 yards (4.7 per) and 3 points. After that, they had 40 plays for 240 yards (6.8 yards per) and 31 points.
If what you're doing isn't working, then try to shake things up...but don't do it when it's the first drive and everything's going the way you wanted it to.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: If these are the only times you run a trick plan
Aug 7, 2014, 2:10 PM
[ in reply to If these are the only times you run a trick plan ] |
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Classless09 with another ####### post. I am shocked.
I guess you are here defending your despicable schools actions with the Dillon recruit?
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Trainer [47]
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Re: If these are the only times you run a trick plan
Aug 7, 2014, 3:10 PM
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Great call HORRIBLE execution
1st Bryant quit his route after 2 strides to watch the play. This freed up the safety immediately
2nd Watkins take 2-3 steps to gather himself
3rd his windup made Tebow look fast
4th he lobbed the ball
5th he didn't lob it to the corner but more to the middle.
6th Humphries did not find the ball or come back to it just waited for it.
If Watkins is the receiver with the best arm then the play should not be in the play book.
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Legend [19352]
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Re: If these are the only times you run a trick plan
Aug 7, 2014, 3:31 PM
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A ####### pathetic #### fan defending his fellow #### fan.
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110%er [5093]
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All-In [28802]
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Orange Blooded [2519]
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That's absurd. When you're not moving the ball, trick plays
Aug 7, 2014, 3:14 PM
[ in reply to Re: what's your opinion?*** ] |
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pretty much never work.
When you have a defense on their heels, a trick play can work great. It wasn't a bad call, and the play was there. Sammy just threw it too high and their safety made a great play.
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Orange Blooded [3881]
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my opinion is that a trick play works but you have to set it
Aug 7, 2014, 11:23 AM
[ in reply to what's your opinion?*** ] |
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up. You bait the other team with something that they may be having trouble defending and move people around to compensate or get an individual player to "cheat" a little more than he should and when you see that happen----BAM! It works...
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CU Guru [1736]
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Re: Having an argument with another Clemson fan Re: Trick play
Aug 7, 2014, 10:57 AM
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Great call poor execution
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All-TigerNet [11161]
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Yep***
Aug 7, 2014, 10:58 AM
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Orange Blooded [4025]
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so, doesn't that make it a bad call?
Aug 7, 2014, 5:00 PM
[ in reply to Re: Having an argument with another Clemson fan Re: Trick play ] |
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it is certainly true that trick plays work best when least expected..so, it was the perfect time to call one..but trick plays are always high risk/high reward.. and the best way to minimize the risk is practice it sufficiently that it doesn't look like you've never run the play before.
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Walk-On [113]
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Re: Having an argument with another Clemson fan Re: Trick play
Aug 7, 2014, 11:01 AM
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Horrible call. We were going through their defense like corn through a goose with our normal offense and then we decided to get cute.
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Commissioner [955]
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Re: Having an argument with another Clemson fan Re: Trick play
Aug 7, 2014, 11:02 AM
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We were moving the ball well. I think we should have kept driving and saved that play for another time.
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CU Medallion [51528]
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We were running the ball at will, just like in 2012, and
Aug 7, 2014, 11:06 AM
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Morris ###### it up.
The past 3 years Chad Morris has blown that game with 1. A horrible game plan (2011) or 2. Not sticking with a working game plan (2012, 2013)
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All-In [28802]
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that isn't true, like at all
Aug 7, 2014, 11:22 AM
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The offense performed very well in that game inasmuch as it was due to the game plan. It's hard to blame Morris for Sammy floating the ball to Humphries or for Tajh fumbling in the second half.
Literally the only reason we didn't have close to 500 yards of offense in that game is that we fumbled two punts. Other than that, we were actually about at our average for yards per play.
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Legend [19576]
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We did stop running the ball just as we've done against them
Aug 7, 2014, 11:27 AM
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and fsu since Morris has been here. That's the only gripe I've ever had about him. He talks a big run game but never follows through when it works.
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All-In [28802]
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We only stopped running last year when...
Aug 7, 2014, 11:32 AM
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we were already behind and didn't have enough time to march down the field. The fact of the matter is that game plan had nothing to do with us losing last year, while muffing two punts pretty much made the game unwinnable.
If you want to know how quickly a muffed punt can turn a game around, just ask Ohio State about the Orange Bowl. OSU was up 9 and would've had the ball with great field position, but the turnover basically gave Clemson the ball 45 yards downfield with momentuam against a tired defense. Now think about how much doing that twice on your own side of the field changes a game, especially when your defense is pretty much shutting the other team down.
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CU Medallion [51528]
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Are we even talking about the same games here?***
Aug 7, 2014, 11:35 AM
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All-In [28802]
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How am I wrong?***
Aug 7, 2014, 11:36 AM
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Legend [19576]
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Re: How am I wrong?***
Aug 7, 2014, 11:40 AM
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SCUjr 2013:
Game was tied in the 4th 17-17.
Hot Rod averaged 4 carries per quarter in quarters 1 - 3.
He had 2 carries in the 4th. With the game 24-17, down 7 hot rod had ONE carry for 22 yards. Tajh eventually fumbled.
Hot Rod averaged 7.1 ypc
FSU 2013:
Hot Rod had 5.5 ypc only 11 carries (Not sure this one would have mattered though)
SCUjr 2012:
Ellington 4.8 ypc only 15 carries
Hot Rod 15.7 ypc 3 carries
1st quarter
Ellington 7 carries 29 yards
HotRod 3 carries 47 yards
14-7 Clemson
2nd quarter:
Ellington 4 carries 22 yards
HotRod 0 carries
14-10 Clemson
3rd quarter:
Ellington 3 carries 14 yards
20-17 USCjr
4th Quarter:
1 carry 9 yards
27-17 USCjr
FSU 2012:
Ellington 3.9 ypc on only 14 carries
1st quarter:
Ellington 4 carries 24 yards, TD
14-7 Clemson
2nd Quarter:
Ellington 5 carries 13 yards
21-14 Clemson
3rd Quarter:
Ellington 3 carries (same drive) 12 yards
35-31 FSU
4th Quarter:
Ellington 1 Carry 5 yards
FSU 49-37
Message was edited by: CUAtTheFinishLine®
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All-In [28802]
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You don't tell the whole story...
Aug 7, 2014, 12:01 PM
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Clemson really only had one drive in the 4th quarter with enough time to run the ball. That drive started at 11:47 when we were down by 7, and we ran the ball 4 out of the 7 plans we had. It's also not like we weren't successful on that drive before Boyd fumbled, as we'd gone from the 27 on our side of the field to inside their 30 before Boyd fumbled.
The thing is, that fumble didn't really even hurt us that bad, and McDowell might have had more chances to run the ball, but Humphries fumbled again on the punt and gave South Carolina the ball (again) on our 34 yard line. SC scored on a trick play, and at that point we had around 3 minutes to score twice. Are you telling me you would've run McDowell at that point?
And are you saying we somehow "gave up on the run" in the 4th quarter because we only ran on a majority of the plays when we actually had time to do so in the 4th quarter?
I'd also point out that we only had the ball twice in the third quarter, and we only ran 18 plays. Of those plays, 9 were passes and 9 were rushes. 5 of the rushes were by McDowell and 4 were by Boyd, although 2 of Boyd's rushes were in short yardage situations. McDowell only gained 17 yards on those carries.
So, no, we didn't abandon the run. The facts show that we actually ran the ball when we had time and when the situation called for it, but that because of the turnovers- particularly the muffed punts- we didn't have a lot of opportunity to run the ball (or to pass it, either) in the second half.
I'd have to go back and look at other years, but I was only responding to what you said about last year. I think everybody feels like we stopped running the ball to early against SCU in 2012.
Message was edited by: camcgee®
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CU Medallion [58376]
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South Carolina scored on a trick play?
Aug 7, 2014, 12:11 PM
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That was a terrible call.
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All-In [28802]
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they probably did need it more than us
Aug 7, 2014, 12:13 PM
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But their fans would probably be pretty pissed if Cooper's lob had ended up on the field or intercepted instead of being taken to the house. We had everything else they were doing stopped at that point.
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CU Medallion [58376]
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2 possessions prior (start of the 4th qtr) they had a
Aug 7, 2014, 12:53 PM
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74 yd drive that resulted in a TD. They had a 7 point lead and were in field goal range with 5 minutes to go when they ran the trick play. A conservative play call probably puts them up by 2 scores wins the game for them. Instead, they call a "trick play" which wasn't necessary and break our back with it.
I know it's what we do here, to analyze, discuss, and offer up opinions, but I maintain that it's easy to be a critic after the fact and pat ourselves on the back, and that's mostly what is going on here.
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CU Medallion [51528]
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Because, like I said before, we were running the ball at
Aug 7, 2014, 11:41 AM
[ in reply to How am I wrong?*** ] |
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will in the first half which opened up the passing game. We abandoned the run game in the 3rd quarter (actually at the end of the 2nd quarter when Boyd threw an interception, which was the turning point of that game IMO) and their defensive line ate us up.
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All-In [28802]
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Once again, not true
Aug 7, 2014, 11:49 AM
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Boyd didn't throw an interception in the 2nd quarter. In fact, he didn't throw any interceptions until the 4th quarter when we were already down by 2 TDs and there was only 3:44 on the clock. So maybe we're not talking about the same game, because I don't remember SC's defensive line "eating us up" at any point in last year's game. Maybe you're talking about 2012, when we definitely did stop running the ball and when SC's line was a bigger factor.
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Addict [441]
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CU Medallion [58376]
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Trick plays are great when they work; usually the product
Aug 7, 2014, 11:10 AM
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of an offensive savant, or a wiley old "riverboat gambler" or "crazy like a fox" coach.
When they don't work, they are stupid calls that only an idiot would make.
It's easy for us to sit here after the fact and make that judgment.
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CU Medallion [51528]
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I think all can agree that we didn't need that trick play.
Aug 7, 2014, 11:12 AM
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And just like Harper's fumble in 2009, it set the negative tone for that game.
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Legend [19576]
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Re: Trick plays are great when they work; usually the product
Aug 7, 2014, 11:19 AM
[ in reply to Trick plays are great when they work; usually the product ] |
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It was a bad call regardless of outcome. I was yelling at the TV while it was still in the air. I don't care if it went for a TD and we won by 7. It was still a dumb call.
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CU Medallion [51528]
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Immediately after that turnover I said "here we go again"
Aug 7, 2014, 11:33 AM
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but I was pleasantly surprised to see the game tied at 17 in the 4th.
Then someone put Bryant in on special teams.
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Heisman Winner [133731]
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I thought it was a horrible call. We gave last years game
Aug 7, 2014, 11:10 AM
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away IMO.
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CU Medallion [51528]
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We gift wrapped it for them 5 times.
Aug 7, 2014, 11:13 AM
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Or did we have 6 turnovers?
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Orange Blooded [3422]
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Re: We gift wrapped it for them 5 times.
Aug 7, 2014, 11:14 AM
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6
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CU Medallion [51528]
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Those plays need to be on loop in the weight room.
Aug 7, 2014, 11:15 AM
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I'm sick of losing to those #####.
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Orange Blooded [3422]
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Re: Those plays need to be on loop in the weight room.
Aug 7, 2014, 1:52 PM
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The worst part is many of them were especially bad plays. Sammy's INT, a ball bouncing off Martavis' shoulder pad on a punt, Humphries with a bizarre fumble, and Tajh being held up for 10 seconds while d-linemen ripped the ball from his arms. They were just turnovers, they were ugly turnovers.
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Commissioner [927]
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Because it failed the tendency is to label it Horrible
Aug 7, 2014, 11:15 AM
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But if we had scored 99.9% of us would have been doing backflips over the genius of Chad Morris!
Your argument will forever remain an argument with no winner. Ever!
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CU Medallion [51528]
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You're absolutely right. Chad Morris would have been a
Aug 7, 2014, 11:18 AM
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"genius." But that doesn't negate the fact that we were moving the ball at will before that play and that trick play wasn't needed.
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CU Medallion [58376]
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: Because it failed the tendency is to label it Horrible
Aug 7, 2014, 11:36 AM
[ in reply to Because it failed the tendency is to label it Horrible ] |
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I disagree entirely. If you could pause the game in time to where Sammy gets the ball and you realize it's a trick play -- what would your first thought have been?
I think it's misguided to judge a decision based on the best possible outcome (that, for the record, didn't happen) rather than considering the circumstances surrounding the decision.
If we had scored, I would have been "meh, we could have just passed/ran it in like we did the rest of the drive rather than communicating the message that we can't play straight up"
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All-In [28802]
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I think if you'd paused it at that point...
Aug 7, 2014, 11:41 AM
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You'd see Adam Humphries wide open in the endzone with nobody within 15 yards of him and assume that we were going to score. You're right that all of our other plays were working against them all game, but that doesn't mean that calling a trick play was a "horrible call."
Anyway, it's kind of pointless to debate this because it's too easy to look at what did happen and judge from that. And we lost.
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: I think if you'd paused it at that point...
Aug 7, 2014, 11:45 AM
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Well, yeah. But when I offer the scenario of the paused game I'm not regarding that the play ended up being an interception. I'm making an observation at the point based on the information at hand - the information being that we were moving the ball well with our regular plays.
I'm going off the general assumption that a trick play communicates desperation or an effort to shake things up. Not pointing to you, but some of the same people talking about how the call "could" have worked are some of the same ones who complain when people call the Chad "cute" or "gimmicky".
Calling a trick play at that point in the game is about as gimmicky as it gets. Bad call, regardless of outcome.
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CU Medallion [64519]
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It was a bad call....
Aug 7, 2014, 11:16 AM
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We were moving the ball against their defense pretty much at will. There was no need, at least at that point, to resort to some kind of trickeration.
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CU Guru [1112]
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It was too early in the game to try especially when you were
Aug 7, 2014, 11:17 AM
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driving it down
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All-In [28802]
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see the 2012 FSU game
Aug 7, 2014, 11:20 AM
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We actually tend to run those trick plays early in the game to get the other team in their head for the rest of the game.
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CU Medallion [51528]
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And that's a perfect example where trick plays are needed.
Aug 7, 2014, 11:22 AM
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FSU has more talent and depth than us (USuC does NOT). We would have been blown out (even worse) in the 2012 FSU game had we not used trick plays.
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All-In [28802]
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We were actually moving the ball pretty well at that point
Aug 7, 2014, 11:34 AM
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We ended up with 426 yards of total offense, so it's not like they were stuffing us all game.
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CU Medallion [51528]
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Oh, 426 huh? Well then that makes the loss easier to handle***
Aug 7, 2014, 11:36 AM
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CU Medallion [64519]
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All-In [28802]
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Against SCU, yes
Aug 7, 2014, 11:38 AM
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That's my whole point.
That's not really true of the 2012 FSU game because we only had the one turnover on an int.
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Orange Blooded [3422]
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Re: Having an argument with another Clemson fan Re: Trick play
Aug 7, 2014, 11:19 AM
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It was a horrible call...even if it had worked, it would have been a situation where you wipe you brow, say "holy sh*t" and then ask Chad to never do that again.
It made zero sense to do that on the first drive when the team was moving the ball with ease. Save that for later in the game when you're looking to sway the momentum.
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All-In [28802]
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Fine call, bad execution
Aug 7, 2014, 11:19 AM
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Sammy had him wide open and could've had a TD with a little more zip on the ball. I also thought Humphries shouldn't have just stood there and waited for the ball to come down.
On the other hand, we pretty much moved the ball at will on them the whole game, so what was the need at the time?
I also don't think we'd be debating this if Humphries hadn't dropped the two punts.
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CU Medallion [51528]
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No. A fine call would have been Hot Rod up the middle for
Aug 7, 2014, 11:24 AM
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15 more yards, then a slant pass to Humphries for a few more and lastly a fade pass to Bryant for a touchdown.
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All-In [28802]
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If that works, yes
Aug 7, 2014, 11:28 AM
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The reason I'm saying it was a "fine call" is that it obviously caught South Carolina off guard because they only had one player deep and he was 15 yards away from Humphries when the ball was thrown. Unfortunately Watkins and Humphries didn't execute well and the defender made a great play.
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Legend [19576]
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Re: If that works, yes
Aug 7, 2014, 11:29 AM
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Our WR was throwing the ball to our 3rd best WR in a 0-0 game where we were moving it down their throats. Fine call shouldn't be any where associated with that play.
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All-In [28802]
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and hindsight is always 20- 20***
Aug 7, 2014, 11:33 AM
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CU Medallion [51528]
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Yeah, like don't just give Steve Spurrier the football
Aug 7, 2014, 11:37 AM
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6 times for free.
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CU Medallion [51528]
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There's no "if" about it. Those plays were working.
Aug 7, 2014, 11:30 AM
[ in reply to If that works, yes ] |
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We moved the ball 40 yards without batting an eye.
Stick to your bread and butter, Morris and we win that game.
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CU Medallion [64519]
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Well...if not for all of the turnovers.***
Aug 7, 2014, 11:35 AM
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CU Medallion [51528]
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that trick play was one of the turnovers.***
Aug 7, 2014, 11:36 AM
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CU Medallion [64519]
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Yes but we managed to overcome that one
Aug 7, 2014, 11:39 AM
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It was the other five that killed us.
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All-In [28802]
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Not even all of the other 5...
Aug 7, 2014, 12:12 PM
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Just the two muffed punts and maybe Boyd's fumble in the 4th quarter. The two int's that came later were after we were already down two scores and in desperation mode. We probably go into that period of the game ahead by maybe 2 scores if not for the three turnovers I mentioned.
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110%er [5093]
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All-In [28802]
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You can't deny that you guys had trouble stopping us***
Aug 7, 2014, 12:25 PM
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110%er [5093]
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Then why didn't you score more touchdowns?
Aug 7, 2014, 12:34 PM
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Tiger drummer said all they needed was a hand off, a slant and a fade to Bryant for an easy six.
Seemed like we did alright keeping you out of the endzone. Obviously we struggled in the middle of the field.
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All-In [28802]
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Because we gave the ball away so many times
Aug 7, 2014, 12:39 PM
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Clemson had two whole possessions erased by muffed punts, which not only were turnovers, but they also gave you guys the ball on a very short field. They just didn't have a lot of chances to score.
That said, I think you're right to say that's it's foolish to just assume Clemson was going to score there if the trick play hadn't led to an int. Still, I think Clemson wins that game pretty easily if the muffed punts and Boyd's fumble in the 4th hadn't happened.
Message was edited by: camcgee®
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Starter [350]
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Re: Having an argument with another Clemson fan Re: Trick play
Aug 7, 2014, 11:23 AM
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Seemed desperate IMO.
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Orange Blooded [4504]
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Morris isn't making a million+ and a national offensive
Aug 7, 2014, 11:24 AM
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reputation by not knowing what he is doing. Poor execution, plain and simple.
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CU Medallion [64519]
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Making a million+ doesn't make him infallible
Aug 7, 2014, 11:25 AM
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It was a poor call that was also poorly executed.
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CU Medallion [51528]
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Rock Defender [53]
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Your options should say "bad call" and "horrible call"***
Aug 7, 2014, 11:25 AM
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All-TigerNet [13036]
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Depends on how Sammy executed that play in practice.
Aug 7, 2014, 11:50 AM
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With a decent throw it's a great call, but if the staff knew Sammy's arm was very questionable then it's probably not a good call.
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CU Guru [1127]
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Re: Having an argument with another Clemson fan Re: Trick play
Aug 7, 2014, 11:53 AM
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Bad call but here is why, they had a super deep one high safety which people have seen them do to stop things like that. When any of the coaches or tajh saw it there should have been a check or communication to sammy. There was nothing right about that play. We should have run it after we ran the screen a million times because they were giving us that. We also didn't need it because as has been stated we were almost getting a 1st down per play.
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All-TigerNet [14921]
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Good call bad execution. Humphries was wide open if
Aug 7, 2014, 12:47 PM
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Sammy hadn't floated the ball.
Were we moving the ball well otherwise? Yes. Doesn't make it a bad play call. Especially since it would've worked.
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CU Medallion [58376]
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Ed Zachary***
Aug 7, 2014, 12:55 PM
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Hall of Famer [21614]
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Rock Defender [53]
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Re: The playcall demanded that a not-QB play QB.
Aug 7, 2014, 4:21 PM
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Exactly.
"Poor execution" implies that a wide receiver is trained and expected to make an accurate 30 yard throw under pressure.
No chit Sammy made a bad throw. Apparently it's hard to complete even an open pass when you don't practice doing it every drive.
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CU Guru [1341]
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Re: Having an argument with another Clemson fan Re: Trick play
Aug 7, 2014, 12:51 PM
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Trick plays are great when nothing else is working. We didn't need a trick play then, we were moving the ball rather well. We keep losing because we don't play "our game". For whatever reason, we feel we have to do something special for Carolina. I'd like to see us play our normal game and see if they can beat us then.
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Orange Blooded [2519]
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I think it was an okay call, good arguments on both sides,
Aug 7, 2014, 3:26 PM
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A trick like that is a good idea when you know they are keying on Sammy, so Humphries will be wide open, which he was.
The only real argument against it is Sammy's ability to throw and realize that there is a safety on the backside that could get there on a floater.
Even still, give the coot safety some credit for getting there.
All that said, I think we could have overcome 3 turnovers. It was the 4th one that killed us. (Humphries punt return fumble)
BTW, how many times has Humphries fumbled the ball in his career?
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110%er [8681]
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The play was there Sammy just under threw it
Aug 7, 2014, 5:03 PM
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That being said we where going to score on that drive with out it, they just couldn't stop our run game so it was a bad call. If we were struggling on offense and it was midway through the 3rd my opinion might be different.
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