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YOUR BALANCE
If you assume FSU and UGA will win 10 games this year
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If you assume FSU and UGA will win 10 games this year


Oct 26, 2014, 6:42 PM

which is likely...

then going back to 2010, Clemson is 1-10 in the regular season vs. teams that go on to win at least 10 games. Now, if you add in the bowl games vs. LSU and OSU, and the ACCCG vs. VT, we are 4-10, which is a little better. However, bowl games are rewards and great for recruiting, and we may not beat LSU if Miles doesn't lose his mind with clock management at the end.

The issue for me is not the close win vs. Cuse, BC, etc... It's the long term trend that is clearly evident. We are not in the in the conversation at the end of the season b/c of how we perform in big games in the regular season. Our injuries are legit, and we did graduate a lot, but we can't make that claim going back to 2010.

Clemson, even with injuries, has elite talent. We out-talent 80-85%% of our schedule, and the we are talented as the other 15-20%. At what point do you begin to look at coaching?

Before you start throwing arrows and attacking, understand this IS NOT a post trashing the staff, players, etc... It's a legitimate trend that has developed here.

1-10 in the regular season vs. teams that finish with at least 10 wins... I'm just tired of hanging our success on beating everyone but FSU and UCS, and the occassional UGA or AU that finsih with 8 wins.

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"I've been working since I was 15 continually until now. I worked 40 hours a week at 15, when it wasn't even legal for 15 year olds to work that many hours."


So you're asking why we only lose to really good teams?


Oct 26, 2014, 6:44 PM

Gimme a minute.

2024 orange level memberbadge-donor-10yr.jpgringofhonor-clemsontiger1988-110.jpg flag link military_tech thumb_downthumb_up

Guess want Bowden era back beat Mia then lose to Duke nxt wk***


Oct 26, 2014, 7:06 PM



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How many of those teams that finished with 10 wins wouldn't


Oct 26, 2014, 6:46 PM

have had 10 wins had they lost to Clemson?

Think about THAT for a second.

#maybemessage

YM
YM

smh
hth

































































































































P.S. RIP in peace in advance fyi

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So you're saying


Oct 26, 2014, 6:52 PM

That the only time we lose is to really really good teams that everyone else had trouble beating?

Sweet. Sounds like the makings of a really consistent, solid program.

Anyone who thinks we should be performing at an Alabama- type level with what we pay our coaches and our recruiting rankings significantly lower than these teams year in and year out should be pointed and laughed it.

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define "Alabama type level"...


Oct 26, 2014, 6:56 PM

you think Alabama has more than one win over the last 3.5 years against good teams? Who said go undefeated every year?

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"I've been working since I was 15 continually until now. I worked 40 hours a week at 15, when it wasn't even legal for 15 year olds to work that many hours."


So you don't expect to go undefeated


Oct 26, 2014, 7:03 PM

But are mad that we are losing to the best teams on our schedule? Who should we be losing to?

Alabama type level would be going after a head coach worth about 5 million a year with (if I recall) with something like 4 consecutive top 5 recruiting classes?

Yeah, we get some nice players, but nothing close to FSU or Alabama. And yes, we have some good coaches but nothing close to the money we need to put up for a Saban or Spurrier.

So again, with our current resources, who should we be losing to if you don't think we can go undefeated?

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I would expect to beat FSU more than we have, or SCU


Oct 26, 2014, 7:04 PM

I think it's reasonable to expect to be better than 1-10 against the best teams on our schedule?

I'm not sure what's worse... being 1-10, or watching fans say "well who should we lose to then".

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"I've been working since I was 15 continually until now. I worked 40 hours a week at 15, when it wasn't even legal for 15 year olds to work that many hours."


Start laughing at me now.


Oct 26, 2014, 6:57 PM [ in reply to So you're saying ]

ND is bound to loose one more game. That will put SEC's second team in the Orange Bowl. We're back, healthy and get to see what Bama's made of!

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I'd like to compare our 4-10 record against other teams


Oct 26, 2014, 6:55 PM

performance against 10 win teams in the same span. Regardless of when or how wins occur, it's not a fair assessment if you discount the ACCCG and bowl game wins. Just like you say that we wouldn't have beaten LSU if Les Miles had coached differently, I could say that we would have beaten FSU this year if any one of 5 or 6 plays had gone differently. Or I could say that if UGA hadn't been decimated by injuries last year then they would have probably won 10 games last year.

Our record is 4-10 against 10 win teams and breaking it down to 1-10 to support your argument isn't a fair analysis.

In any case, I would be very interested to compare our 4-10 record to all the other typical programs in the top 25.

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my argument is the regular season... which is what


Oct 26, 2014, 6:57 PM

gets you to your goals in the postseason...


1-10 in the regular season is why we haven't taken that next step...

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"I've been working since I was 15 continually until now. I worked 40 hours a week at 15, when it wasn't even legal for 15 year olds to work that many hours."


While that's fair, I don't think that


Oct 26, 2014, 7:11 PM

winning another game every year against a 10 win team would have ultimately affected our postseason destination unless we had beaten Florida State. Our 2010 team finished 6-7, so I don't think they should be included in any analysis of current trends. We couldn't even beat an average team that year. In the three years where we have been won 10 games ourselves, we were able to advance to the Orange Bowl twice, and the Peach Bowl once. If we had won an additional game in any of those seasons, we still wouldn't have had any better outcome in the postseason unless we had beaten FSU in 2012 and returned to the Orange Bowl.


Also, did you include West Virginia in your 1-10 record? If so, that shouldn't count either since it was in the postseason.

I realize that we have to beat the top teams in order to progress to the next level as a program, but I think that considering where we were in 2010, we have progressed significantly as a program. We were much better in 2011 than 2010, and we improved quite a bit more in 2012 than 2011. I would even say that with the exception of the FSU debacle last year, our 2013 team was much better than 2012 given that our offense performed about the same and the defense was much better.

It's not a fair comparison to compare this year's team to last year given the number of injuries and the turnover. If we are able to win out and our offense turns it around when Watson returns, I think that it would be fair to say that our 2014 team was our best team to date.

We may not be beating the top teams consistently yet, but we have stopped losing to all the other teams. Until we stop seeing improvement from year to year (even if it is only a slight improvement) I don't think it would be fair to suggest a change in staff.

If 5 years from now we are still bringing in top 10 recruiting classes and haven't taken the next step or have gotten worse, then I think this would be a fair argument.

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how do you explain winning 5 of 7 vs. FSU


Oct 26, 2014, 7:16 PM

then all of a sudden there is this seemingly huge gap between us? The same can be said for SCU.

I'm not saying our staff isn't doing a good job. It's just frustrating to read fans talk about all the injuries, etc... which are true... but the trend is that we cannot get it done against teams with similar talent, period.

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"I've been working since I was 15 continually until now. I worked 40 hours a week at 15, when it wasn't even legal for 15 year olds to work that many hours."


Re: how do you explain winning 5 of 7 vs. FSU


Oct 26, 2014, 7:24 PM

In the period when we won 5 of 7 from FSU they were a very different team than they have been under Jimbo Fisher. They had fallen out of the top 10 in recruiting for a few years, but they recovered under Fisher to routinely bring in recruiting classes routinely ranked in the top 3 for the past few years. While our recruiting level also increased, it has not increased to the same level as FSU.

The performance against SCU is more difficult to explain. Unlike FSU, there isn't a large talent gap between the two programs.

Even still, I would much rather be a team that only loses to the top teams on our schedule as opposed to being a team that beats the occasional top team on our schedule but loses a couple games each year against inferior opponents.

BTW, in the span where we won 5 of 7 against FSU and were beating SCU most years, how many times did those teams finish with 10 wins? I know for a fact that SCU didn't win 10 games in any of those years because prior to 2011 they had only done that once in their 100+ years back in 1984 in their steroid era. I doubt FSU won 10 games many times in that span either.

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i absolutely agree with you...


Oct 26, 2014, 7:27 PM

FSU was much different... but I don't buy that they are that much more talented than us right now. Moreso? maybe. But not position for position like the 57-0 days.

I think our talent is similar enough that we should be performing better against them than what we have. Are we saying that Jimbo and his staff are that much better that they could make that leap, that fast, and pass us that much?


Message was edited by: york_tiger®


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"I've been working since I was 15 continually until now. I worked 40 hours a week at 15, when it wasn't even legal for 15 year olds to work that many hours."


Re: i absolutely agree with you...


Oct 26, 2014, 7:59 PM

I don't think that Jimbo and staff are necessarily that much better than ours. I'm not saying that our coaching is better by any means, but I think that they were able to turn their program around much quicker because of the fact that they were simply returning to form after 6 or 8 years of falling out of the top 10.

Returning FSU to it's 90's form is very different than building a program that has had 20 years of 7 or 8 win seasons without a single conference championship and only one or two 9 win seasons.


Prior to last year's national championship, I actually think that Dabo and his staff turning our culture around from being content with 8 wins and a bowl game to expecting double digit wins every year and competing for conference championships and BCS bowls was much more impressive than Fisher and company returning FSU to the top 10. After their undefeated championship season last year, I have to give them more credit, but that still doesn't denigrate what Dabo has done in the last 4 years.

As I mentioned earlier, I think that as long as our team is showing improvement from year to year then we shouldn't be calling for overhaul of the staff outside of possibly a position coach or something similar. Until we have a couple years where we take a step back as a whole team (not just on offense like this year) and stop winning 11 games a year or have several years where we stagnate without any improvement, it's entirely too soon to question whether or not our coaches have been given too much time.

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i agree... i'm definately not saying to fire anyone..


Oct 26, 2014, 8:07 PM

the debate I really want to have can't be had on tnet though...

no way

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"I've been working since I was 15 continually until now. I worked 40 hours a week at 15, when it wasn't even legal for 15 year olds to work that many hours."


I also think it's important who you compare it against...


Oct 26, 2014, 7:02 PM [ in reply to I'd like to compare our 4-10 record against other teams ]

i mean.. we don't want to compare it to Kentucky or Vanderbilt...

I'm not sure who would be good... maybe an FSU or LSU... or even SCU. I didn't look those numbers up, but yes, it would be interesting.

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"I've been working since I was 15 continually until now. I worked 40 hours a week at 15, when it wasn't even legal for 15 year olds to work that many hours."


I say compare it only to teams that routinely finish in the


Oct 26, 2014, 7:15 PM

top 25. Also, break it down further into teams that could be considered the top 10 teams over the past few years and then 11-20 and 21-25 to see how we compare to each group.


Where would you rank our program nationally over the period from 2011-2014? Would you put us in the top 10 or lower? Also, which programs would you consider to be better over the course of the entire 3+ year span?

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that's hard to answer.... unlike most on here


Oct 26, 2014, 7:20 PM

i do believe the ACC is terribly weak, other than FSU and Clemson. When we are routinely losing FSU and SCU, that makes it hard to rank us, IMO.

I really don't know where I'd put us. Over the past 3.5 years, i'd probably put us around 15 or so, but i'm really not sure.

I think that still misses the bigger issue, though. The numbers are one thing, and those are easy to point out. It's not hard to find that we are 1-10 during that time period...

but what I see is that, in those games, our coaches are tight, and they sometimes go "spastic". I have always been a huge CM fan... but the longer this goes, I think we are watching him "grow up" and learn on the fly.

My question is, how long will he, and Dabo, be on that curve.


Message was edited by: york_tiger®


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"I've been working since I was 15 continually until now. I worked 40 hours a week at 15, when it wasn't even legal for 15 year olds to work that many hours."


Re: If you assume FSU and UGA will win 10 games this year


Oct 26, 2014, 7:07 PM

we lose the two most important games of the year

...no good

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that's what i'm saying... but when i say it...


Oct 26, 2014, 7:09 PM

it's a bash on everyone and i'm an idiot

despite what the trend clearly is

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"I've been working since I was 15 continually until now. I worked 40 hours a week at 15, when it wasn't even legal for 15 year olds to work that many hours."


York, maybe it wouldn't be so frustrating for you


Oct 26, 2014, 7:12 PM

If you stopped creating these threads altogether?

Maybe just take solace in the fact that you believe it to be true and stop worrying about what everyone is inevitably going to say.

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York, maybe it wouldn't be so frustrating for you


Oct 26, 2014, 7:13 PM [ in reply to that's what i'm saying... but when i say it... ]

If you stopped creating these threads altogether?

Maybe just take solace in the fact that you believe it to be true and stop worrying about what everyone is inevitably going to say.

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Have you ever thought


Oct 26, 2014, 7:11 PM [ in reply to Re: If you assume FSU and UGA will win 10 games this year ]

That maybe those games have become the most important because these teams are very, very good? Probably a product of having given us, and other teams, tons of problems over the years.

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Re: Have you ever thought


Oct 26, 2014, 8:07 PM

...yeah but the way we lose them

shooting ourselves in the foot...aggravating

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i agree with york on this one..


Oct 26, 2014, 7:19 PM [ in reply to Re: If you assume FSU and UGA will win 10 games this year ]

last night when they saidwe had this 20 something game winning streak against unranked teams..i replied back with well tell me our record against teams that are ranked.sure every game matters.but when we lose the impact games while winning throw away games its no different than beating the good teams then losing to unranked teams just like bowden did.

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it's amazing how these guys will try to butcher logical


Oct 26, 2014, 7:22 PM

discussion... I'm not giving an opinion. That's the record.

I think Dabo has done a fabulous job getting rid of that demon of losing games we shouldn't. No question about it.

But at some point we have to take the next step.

It's a different debate, but you can also call into question our coaching during those "big" games. When the talent is pretty even, coaching is at a premium... period.

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"I've been working since I was 15 continually until now. I worked 40 hours a week at 15, when it wasn't even legal for 15 year olds to work that many hours."


Re: If you assume FSU and UGA will win 10 games this year


Oct 26, 2014, 7:16 PM

I'm enjoying thinking about this question. I think it is about the slow change of a Culture used to winning 8-9 games and going to a bowl game to a culture where we yearly compete and are in contention in every game. We obviously have won more games and have gone to and won some nice bowl games but greatness on "that" level is still not there. I am not sure how we keep the culture changing In the right direction but believing we can play and win any and all games seems to be the next step. We have the coaching, facilities, athletes and financial baking to be an elite program but we aren't there...yet. We have to keep believing and acting like we are champions. Just my thoughts.

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Re: Very good question


Oct 26, 2014, 7:28 PM

We clearly do not lose to teams we should beat now, usually, but we have not moved to that elite level either.

You're correct and it's a very good point.

Yes, if you're not blindly for Clemson on this board all the time you'll catch hell.. we have so many great fans but we also have a lot that are idiots, sycophants (sp?), and thin-skinned as hell. Of course it's not the majority but it's enough on this board to be a pain in the a$$. If the shoe fits....

Back to your post. We're loaded with talent and we need to produce better results, which will very difficult now to get to an elite level. But I also think we possibly have the staff in place to get that done. Maybe I'm wrong.

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I hope so...


Oct 26, 2014, 7:30 PM

Nov. will tell us alot

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"I've been working since I was 15 continually until now. I worked 40 hours a week at 15, when it wasn't even legal for 15 year olds to work that many hours."


Re: I hope so...


Oct 26, 2014, 7:36 PM

York, I. Have been wrong about you. You are usually right and very insightful. In the future we might disagree but I'll never lose respect for your opinion.

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Re: If you assume FSU and UGA will win 10 games this year


Oct 26, 2014, 7:30 PM

Great Post! Even though we are brainwashed with records being broke daily so to speak, that is the national perception. Which leaves us out of the championship discussion during the year. Let's say Fla State wins out and GA win ESecPN conference, that perception alone will keep us out of the discussion.

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Re: I think it is


Oct 26, 2014, 8:09 PM

the next step this team needs to make in 2015/2016 to have any chance to make a playoff.

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I think you're arbitrarily nitpicking the time scale to get


Oct 26, 2014, 8:07 PM

1-10.

2010 was a crappy year and Dabo made coaching changes as a result. We had not been in the elite discussion at that point.

But, 2011 we did well with a young team.

This whole analysis is basically b/c we've lost to FSU and Usuc the last 3 years. Saying "10 win teams" is a silly euphemism for FSU and USuc. They're the only regular season opponents that have won 10.

But, I think it's too easy to disregard beating Uga last year. That Uga team beat USuc and LSU and would've won the SEC East.
You also have to count beating LSU and Ohio St. Those teams don't lose often, it's tough to beat them.

And not losing to scrub teams is a fairly big deal. It's pretty rare to do it as consistently as we have since 2011.

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so let's don't include 2010...


Oct 26, 2014, 8:15 PM

we're 1-8 in the regular season... bowl games are great, but we're in the Peach b/c of the 1-8 record.

I'm not nitpicking anything. I think bowl games are great, but I don't think you can weight that as heavily if you are looking at how our program has progressed.

Dabo has done an excellent job winning the games he's supposed to. In reality, the bowl games are good for recruiting and sending guys away winners.... you make your money in the regular season, to get in a position to play for a conference or natty.

I used the "10 wins" b/c if I don't, people start pointing to wins over 8-5 UGA and mediocre AU teams. Both FSU and SCU have at least 3 wins each the last three years against a team that won 10 games (us).

When is it appropriate to start looking for, and asking, for some of the same?

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"I've been working since I was 15 continually until now. I worked 40 hours a week at 15, when it wasn't even legal for 15 year olds to work that many hours."


Re: If you assume FSU and UGA will win 10 games this year


Oct 26, 2014, 8:13 PM

I bet we are 0 winsdata against teams that went undefeated.
That is the worst argument dumbest question ever.
Seriously?
Just stupid

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so we play 11 regular season games in 4.5 years against


Oct 26, 2014, 8:17 PM

teams that go on to win 10 games...


and we win ONE of those... and I'm making a stupid argument? How does that work?

I can name two teams right now that have 3 wins apiece, with the same criteria, against the same team, in that time span.

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"I've been working since I was 15 continually until now. I worked 40 hours a week at 15, when it wasn't even legal for 15 year olds to work that many hours."


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